How do we encourage tanking?

morrowjen

ESO does a very poor job explaining how to do things. Many people who play this game have never played an MMO before and the dungeon roles are completely new to them. ZOS could fix the problem by by offering a tutorial that explains each role and tells the player what is absolutely necessary to begin that role. it doesn't have to be long or terribly in depth but a simple tutorial would do wonders.

In fact ZOS offering this tut at the beginning and/or before you do your first dungeon could really change things.

idk

morrowjen wrote: »

ESO does a very poor job explaining how to do things. Many people who play this game have never played an MMO before and the dungeon roles are completely new to them. ZOS could fix the problem by by offering a tutorial that explains each role and tells the player what is absolutely necessary to begin that role. it doesn't have to be long or terribly in depth but a simple tutorial would do wonders.

In fact ZOS offering this tut at the beginning and/or before you do your first dungeon could really change things.

ESO's tutorial is pretty on par with what I have seen in other MMOs. They teach us what is basically needed to know for anything. How to block and interrupt and a little bit more.

How to use different skills is not something the developers should get into nor how to perform specific roles. They are not the experts in the game, for this MMO or any other MMO.

Guilds are often the best source of information for new players, and existing players. Even the best players in PvE and PvP discuss things amongst guild mates and test new stuff out.

I would pity the fool to learned how to play specific roles from a Zos tutorial. No offense to Zos, but again, they are not the experts at playing this game.

SupremeRissole

code65536 wrote: »

There is no shortage of tanks.

Just a shortage of tanks who are willing to place themselves at the mercy of the poor DPS output of random groups that they--by virtue of being tanks--cannot carry.

This could not be more correct. My first toon was a tank and I ground him up to cp300 before making a dps. It was painful.

Nowadays I refuse to queue with randoms as a tank. 9/10 times its bloodroot forge with cp690s who pull max 10k dps.
I only use my tank when a friend or guildie requests it. And even then for most if not all 4 man content I refuse to run with a healer, because otherwise it's not as enjoyable for me not having to heal and manage my own resources.
This is by no means a brag, this is just stating that being a support role with poor dps, is one of the worst experiences in this game. Hence why I keep them in the garage and dust them off when someone I know calls for them.

morrowjen

idk wrote: »

morrowjen wrote: »

ESO does a very poor job explaining how to do things. Many people who play this game have never played an MMO before and the dungeon roles are completely new to them. ZOS could fix the problem by by offering a tutorial that explains each role and tells the player what is absolutely necessary to begin that role. it doesn't have to be long or terribly in depth but a simple tutorial would do wonders.

In fact ZOS offering this tut at the beginning and/or before you do your first dungeon could really change things.

ESO's tutorial is pretty on par with what I have seen in other MMOs. They teach us what is basically needed to know for anything. How to block and interrupt and a little bit more.

How to use different skills is not something the developers should get into nor how to perform specific roles. They are not the experts in the game, for this MMO or any other MMO.

Guilds are often the best source of information for new players, and existing players. Even the best players in PvE and PvP discuss things amongst guild mates and test new stuff out.

I would pity the fool to learned how to play specific roles from a Zos tutorial. No offense to Zos, but again, they are not the experts at playing this game.

I agree that the tutorial is great for general play. BUT ESO draws a lot of players from the Elder Scrolls in general. They're used to single-player and typically don't know what a tank is, what dps is, or even what a guild is. MMO players tend to take all that for granted but in because ESO is drawing a lot from a non-MMO audience it would be very helpful to explain what these roles are because they don't exist in single-player games. Guilds are fantastic resources but if you don't even know they exist and/or don't know the difference between a trade guild and a guild more focused on dungeons, the learning curve for non-MMO players can be high.

It would be a simple thing to design something to introduce newbies to the MMO-world. Of course, the reset of us could skip that but I really do think something like this would help the game in general.

One of the unique things about ESO is that it draws so many people unfamiliar with MMOs. In that regard, I don't think it's like other MMOs.

Silver_Strider

I wonder how hard it would be to implement a training ground of sorts to give players a nice little tutorial on the basics. Something like FFXIV's Hall of the Novice that, while optional, grants players a decent set of entry level gear and provides a few basic training exercises for whatever role you choose. They could make it on the starter islands as a little side quest to help get you introduced to MMOs basics that the current tutorial lacks, like how to taunt, healing in a group setting and AoE vs Single Target skills.

witchdoctor

I tend to agree with a few posters who earlier noted that the issue isn't number of tanks (in total) or the 'fun' of tanking, but rather, that tanks don't want to deal with PUGs. Of my 5 toons, 3 are able to tank (as in, each has a skilled and geared tank off-spec), and 2 heal. I'd much rather PUG on my healers. If I queue as a tank for a GF, I don't want to deal with the Lone Ranger using the GF as their vehicle for a daily reward. I queued to tank; I'd like to tank, thanks.

That said, I don't think there is much to change in each class. For example, giving NBs a 'chains' ability would only dilute a strong point of DKs. Any change also has to be something in the base game, and shouldn't take away from skill lines already existing (i.e., the Undaunted taunt should remain in the Undaunted skill line). I also don't think an AOE taunt is particularly needed.

I think, if changes are made, these sound interesting:

• New 'sub-guilds' in the Fighters' and Mages' Guilds: a tanking, healing, weapon DPS, and magic DPS sub-guild
• These could then, in turn, present new skills or passives to buff and expand on the roles
• They don't necessarily need an ultimate, or even many skills, they could be like Dark Brotherhood and be a series of passives
• *If* an AOE taunt were added, I think a way around trivialising present content would be the addition of a player-unseen tag on each mob: weak, normal, strong, elite, boss, etc., which could then identify what effect the skill has
• So, perhaps an AOE taunt only works on normal and strong mobs, and the mobs in overland and the original dungeons can be tagged as weak, so that the skill doesn't work in those environments
• The skill could then have different effects on stronger mobs, which might add in a shade of mechanics for dungeons and trials

Mister_DMC

Tanking is a double edged knife really. You need to be a patient, observant player with good leadership qualities. There are many ways to build a tank in this game and the problem is if you are a really proficient tank you need a metric TON of gear. Now I've been tanking in ESO for over two years and have leveled two tanks. If you want to do anything else on your tank, for instance I do VMA sometimes on mine for an extra leaderboard score you'll need a ton a skill points so you're not constantly respecing.

The only thing I need to change while doing any other content is CP. Now I'm a console player and would love to have some kind of gear and CP loadouts. This is a huge pain point to be able to swap back and forth to complete content.

Some helpful hints if you want to run normal dungeons on a tank quickly without friends is just set your backbar up as a bow DPS bar. Drop all your dots and then resume taunting and doing your thing. You can easily hit 10k+ DPS to help a feeble group.

There is a feeling of accomplishment that comes with successfully tanking or off tanking the vet trials in this game as they are truly the most difficult content that will challenge even the best players, especially while teaching newer players how to understand the mechanics.

If the tank dies in a vet trial it's often a wipe and not alot of people want that responsibly. Most often though the tanks are respected in the end game raid community and a difficult to replace member of a team and I can live with that. It's not a job for everyone.

IcyDeadPeople

I think we need some improvements for non-DK tanks, for example, maybe add morph of Inner Fire which is AOE taunt that costs magicka

paulsimonps

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I think we need some improvements for non-DK tanks, for example, maybe add morph of Inner Fire which is AOE taunt that costs magicka

Yes on the first part but please god no on the second part. Crowd Control is what would be needed for those that are lacking it, not an AoE Taunt.

newtinmpls

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Oh yeah and who wants abuse from a damager who doesn't know mechanics dictates the boss is guaranteed drop aggro?

Only way to really "get tanking" is to try it. Most of the mouthy DPSs haven't.

Kolzki

How about some role specific achievements and titles? Why is the only tanking achievement for damage taken? Why not taunting, cc or buffing group dps? Or tanking veteran dungeons and trials?

VaranisArano

Kolzki wrote: »

How about some role specific achievements and titles? Why is the only tanking achievement for damage taken? Why not taunting, cc or buffing group dps? Or tanking veteran dungeons and trials?

Good idea! Enemies taunted or Bosses Taunted should be an easy thing for the game to track. If they can track killing blows for PVP kills, surely they can track the first time you taunt something.

Dabulousness

I haven't read the entire thread but from the few pages and posts I've flicked over; the opinion is that tanking is too easy - coming from experienced tanks. That's NOT the point of the thread. It's how to encourage more people to do tanking roles and sadly, the answer might be to make it easier.

People are scared of the responsibility that comes with being the healer and the tank - being responsible for buffs, debuffs and ensuring that things go smoothly through positionin all the while managing resources like a champ - which is understandable given how easy content is until you're thrust into vet content vs overland content which can be solo'd ridiculously easily or massed even easier.

Unless there's going to be some form of tutorials introduced, AoEs seem like a step in the right direction but only for the purpose of encouraging because it would be easier resource management and one less thing to worry about for beginners.

Bighits

"Tanking (and healing), to many, is 'being responsible for the run'. And they don't want that responsibility/pressure/etc. You're not going to get most of them to tank or heal with bribes.

Shortage of tanks & healers for groups & groupfinder has been an issue in MMOs for eons"

This....

Ratzkifal

To be honest, the faster queue times are already worth it and your voice has a lot of weight (as long as you are competent and your team recognises that) since the DDs are afraid of you leaving since that would put them back in the endless queue.

Nemesis7884

through feeling of active contribution and not just passive facetaking...and attractive impactful animations that are fun to look at

Uviryth

Vhozek wrote: »

Is there anything we can think of that could be a good request for the devs to add to the game? I was thinking that if your HP is higher than your other stats you get extra EXP.
Edit: I know this isn't the best idea, but it's an example of what type of discussion is expected in this thread.

One word, DualSpecc. There are so few healers and tanks because of those stupid morphs and stats.

xiZeroPointix

Tanks are the reason your dps is so good. They are applying debuffs to the boss cc mobs for you and generally make the team better. A knowledgable tank can add 5k+ dps to your parse without you knowing it. While taking the hits your squishy build cannot handle. Healers are enabling dps as well providing the dps with buffs that you didnt slot on your bar. Prolly didnt know that either. Wake up call..your dps isnt as good as you think it is! Tanks give up there ability to kill and give it to you. Its gonna be a sad day when you p*** tanks off to the point they no longer que for pug groups any more....wait thats already happened!

josiahva

You can't encourage people to tank. It takes a specific personality to tank. They tend to be grounded and strategic players, whereas ranged DPS tend to be more high-strung tactical players, not sure the personality it takes to be a healer, but certainly closer to a tank than a DPS. Its more a personality type than anything else I have noticed. Yes, I can play a DPS or a healer, but I just don't enjoy either as much as tanking so I will naturally default toward the tank role unless a group specifically needs some other role, and unsurprisingly people will be best at the role the default toward, you cant encourage someone to play a role they don't enjoy.

Rex-Umbra

Nerfing tanks every update doesn't encourage players to tank?

DMuehlhausen

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

Give bonus transmutation geode or something similar to tanks and healers that queue through Group Finder. FFXIV did this very same thing to encourage tanks to queue in their duty finder, and it worked pretty well.

Cause nobody can queue as tank and healer if they aren't right...

Lynx7386

They could start by not nerfing tanks every patch because pvpers whine about them.

But we know that won't happen.

VaranisArano

Lynx7386 wrote: »

They could start by not nerfing tanks every patch because pvpers whine about them.

But we know that won't happen.

Nobody has a problem with a PVE tank who won't die...

Mettaricana

Easy have zos stop making it the worst uphill battle in history and give us a reason to bother trying anymore stop nerfing out recoveries and our blocking and pointless dmg passives heres an idea up the migitation cap in pve only like up 20% kinda stupid to see a tank 1 shotted a tank

BloodWolfe

Start with idiots not always blaming the tank for their own stupid mistakes. Also understand, new players to tanking won't want to try tanking when idiots are always rude expecting the tank to always be perfect... Instead maybe help the tank with tips on how to improve instead of insulting them and kicking them from group.

This is why I stopped tanking long before eso even came out. I used to love tanking until people became absolute d**ks towards tanks for every little issue, some of which are result of idiot dps being morons and not paying attention themselves.

Until people change I'll never tank again, not worth my time and frustration dealing with that crap. Nobody is perfect so this k about that before insulting the tanks.

munster1404

Runefang wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

I for one don't need special consideration or encouragement to play my tank. I enjoy activating synergies, knowing when to let my block down, conserving resources smartly, and essentially "taking command".

It's not for everyone though.

And when you join a dungeon where you do 25% of the group's damage? So a normal dungeon goes from an easy 10 minute run to an hour slog?

That's fun maybe once, just to prove you can do it. But it gets old fast.

You want to know how much damage I deal as a tank while PUGging Darkshade Caverns 2 ? A freaking 68.8% of the group damage. Lol

Colecovision

As someone else suggested, a second toon should get to skip skyshards and lore books, but I’ll add that they also have to spend their first 30 attribute points on health. Then the grind to a tank build wouldn’t be so awful.

Another possibility is giving everyone a second set of attributes for tanking. When you select tank in group finder, it switches you to the alternate set. Maybe there would be a requirement for 30 points in health again, to avoid non tank abuse of the slot. I actually want to give my stamblade a shot, but I need to repec and I don’t want to bounce back and forth. On my dk I need a lot more skill points, but it’s not fun to use that toon outside of dungeons. I’m not getting paid for this, so doing something as unfun as skyshard hunting with terrible dps, isn’t going to happen. Don’t forget this is entertainment. If I had a second set of attributes, I’d quest with a dps/solo build and tank with the other.

Runefang

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

Tanks are the reason your dps is so good. They are applying debuffs to the boss cc mobs for you and generally make the team better. A knowledgable tank can add 5k+ dps to your parse without you knowing it. While taking the hits your squishy build cannot handle. Healers are enabling dps as well providing the dps with buffs that you didnt slot on your bar. Prolly didnt know that either. Wake up call..your dps isnt as good as you think it is! Tanks give up there ability to kill and give it to you. Its gonna be a sad day when you p*** tanks off to the point they no longer que for pug groups any more....wait thats already happened!

Riiight because that 35-40k solo dummy parse needed a tank or healer? A tank won't add much more in 4-man content. Especially as I run the Lover mundus in pug dungeons because so many tanks aren't running Alkosh or infused Torugs.

cabbageub17_ESO

How about a system that tips (in gold) anytime 1 of the 4 players in dungeons takes 80% or more of the damage?

Tieberion

I tank anything in game now, luckily my buddy runs either DPS or his healer, and we usually wait less than 2 minutes for a group. Tanking doesn't need to be made easier or get special trophy, etc. People want stuff handed to them ad it is in MMOs these days. I've been a tank class since, God 2001 or 2? You just have to dual build, one for solo and one for tank, that's the key. Make switching out those builds and gear as easy as possible if anything.