How do we encourage tanking?

Yaada

Tasear wrote: »

I think the problem is fundamental. There's not enough reason to have a tank. People are even forcing healers to off tank. So if I was to say add a reason why a tank has got to be there. Maybe add mechanic where the lower your health the higher the hit you get from a boss.

#dpsTakingEveryone'sJOBS

This is true if you have a group of nothing but hard hitting dps'ers that can self sustain.... like vMA builds.

But with weak hitters......a tank will be needed.

Runefang

Yaada wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

I think the problem is fundamental. There's not enough reason to have a tank. People are even forcing healers to off tank. So if I was to say add a reason why a tank has got to be there. Maybe add mechanic where the lower your health the higher the hit you get from a boss.

#dpsTakingEveryone'sJOBS

This is true if you have a group of nothing but hard hitting dps'ers that can self sustain.... like vMA builds.

But with weak hitters......a tank will be needed.

But most people with tanks are also those hard hitting self sustaining dps'ers.

Nerouyn

I've suggested this solution before.

Let players learn both morphs for abilities and switch freely (outside of combat) between them.

Let players freely (outside of combat) change their attributes.

Let players freely (outside of combat) change their CP distribution.

Let players save builds with gear, attributes, morphs, CP and hotbars.

Do those things and it would no longer be time-consuming and punishing (in terms of gold) for any player to become a tank for a little while.

I typically play healer so generally don't have long waits in queues but I would never play a tank under the existing scheme.

Vhozek

They could also make bosses leave your taunts a tiny bit more often AND give players the ability to get in the way of a hit directed towards another player. People will be able to block incoming hits, thus giving tanks a more dynamic job since I doubt a dps will block for another dps.
On top of that, they could give dungeon bosses the ability to cut through blocks of people that didn't queue as "tank" in the roles.
A 100% successful block will taunt bosses which is something only tanks would be able to do. Maybe dps can only block 50% of the damage thus not applying a taunt AND heavy attacks from the bosses still affects dps while they block, but it only deals whatever percentage they can't block (in this case the 50% used as example).
This could also kill 4 DPS dungeon runs since they will take more damage and will be sent flying by heavy attacks from bosses even if they block it.

Vhozek

Give tanks a bit more HP scaling abilities/morphs or give them the ones they already have but at earlier levels and not god-damn level 38 or 42 when it doesn't even matter anymore. At least this way tanks will be able to enjoy solo PVE a bit more. How about also adding a couple of thorns sets and make thorns scale with HP.

Vhozek

Give Templars a short AoE pull with a slow that scales with HP and give Nightblades a short AoE blind with a duration that scales with HP.

Cage_Lizardman

Nerouyn wrote: »

I've suggested this solution before.

Let players learn both morphs for abilities and switch freely (outside of combat) between them.

Let players freely (outside of combat) change their attributes.

Let players freely (outside of combat) change their CP distribution.

Let players save builds with gear, attributes, morphs, CP and hotbars.

Do those things and it would no longer be time-consuming and punishing (in terms of gold) for any player to become a tank for a little while.

I typically play healer so generally don't have long waits in queues but I would never play a tank under the existing scheme.

If you consider the dungeon finder, you probably don't need to switch CP and attributes from whatever you otherwise do to tank anything there. Morphs are probably not necessary either. I use the Dressing Room addon to switch gear, and yeah that should be a function of the game.

Wing

i have always felt that every role needed a form of damage that fits its theme, as the main problem with tanking is lack of damage making playing them or doing anything take longer.

healers do not suffer from this problem as nearly everything that effects heal strength effects offensive magicka strength as well and leveling a resto and a destro is easy

when ZOS tried heavy armor they simply added a stacking damage buff that was I feel quite lazy, overly complicated, and not fun, I am glad it was removed but sad it was replaced with nothing.

what I propose is a passive that does such

5 pieces required, and returns an amount of damage back to the attacker (every time you take damage from any source) the amount of damage is based on your health.

this would in effect add something like how magicka and stamina builds get damage bonuses for increasing there core stats respectively

so the passive would be like this:

every 1000(?) health would inflict 50(?) damage to the source of any damage you take (a 20-1 health to damage ratio)

so if you have around 30k hp as a tank (average I think) any attacker would receive 1500 damage (effected by battle spirit in pvp for 750)

numbers could change but this could give tanking a form of damage IN LINE with their role, instead of an offensive damage buff its a damage return the REQUIRES BEING HIT, the better your doing your job, the more your taunting, the more damage you do.

@ZOS_Wrobel

Vhozek

Wing wrote: »

i have always felt that every role needed a form of damage that fits its theme, as the main problem with tanking is lack of damage making playing them or doing anything take longer.

healers do not suffer from this problem as nearly everything that effects heal strength effects offensive magicka strength as well and leveling a resto and a destro is easy

when ZOS tried heavy armor they simply added a stacking damage buff that was I feel quite lazy, overly complicated, and not fun, I am glad it was removed but sad it was replaced with nothing.

what I propose is a passive that does such

5 pieces required, and returns an amount of damage back to the attacker (every time you take damage from any source) the amount of damage is based on your health.

this would in effect add something like how magicka and stamina builds get damage bonuses for increasing there core stats respectively

so the passive would be like this:

every 1000(?) health would inflict 50(?) damage to the source of any damage you take (a 20-1 health to damage ratio)

so if you have around 30k hp as a tank (average I think) any attacker would receive 1500 damage (effected by battle spirit in pvp for 750)

numbers could change but this could give tanking a form of damage IN LINE with their role, instead of an offensive damage buff its a damage return the REQUIRES BEING HIT, the better your doing your job, the more your taunting, the more damage you do.

So you mean thorns that scale with HP? I've been proposing that for a while in this thread.

Nerouyn

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

[If you consider the dungeon finder, you probably don't need to switch CP and attributes from whatever you otherwise do to tank anything there.

That doesn't make any sense.

If the dungeon finder happens to drop you into an easy dungeon, any random mish mash of attributes, CP and morphs might be fine for a tank. But against harder content you might be a seriously crappy tank and slow everyone down.

Attributes, CP and morphs do make a difference.

Maura_Neysa

Vhozek wrote: »

They could also make bosses leave your taunts a tiny bit more often AND give players the ability to get in the way of a hit directed towards another player. People will be able to block incoming hits, thus giving tanks a more dynamic job since I doubt a dps will block for another dps.
On top of that, they could give dungeon bosses the ability to cut through blocks of people that didn't queue as "tank" in the roles.
A 100% successful block will taunt bosses which is something only tanks would be able to do. Maybe dps can only block 50% of the damage thus not applying a taunt AND heavy attacks from the bosses still affects dps while they block, but it only deals whatever percentage they can't block (in this case the 50% used as example).
This could also kill 4 DPS dungeon runs since they will take more damage and will be sent flying by heavy attacks from bosses even if they block it.

Rakkat, Lord Warden, Earthgore Minatars, and the Minatar boss all have attacks directed randomly that the tank has to position themselves to block

Cage_Lizardman

Nerouyn wrote: »

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

[If you consider the dungeon finder, you probably don't need to switch CP and attributes from whatever you otherwise do to tank anything there.

That doesn't make any sense.

If the dungeon finder happens to drop you into an easy dungeon, any random mish mash of attributes, CP and morphs might be fine for a tank. But against harder content you might be a seriously crappy tank and slow everyone down.

Attributes, CP and morphs do make a difference.

The only thing I've found hard to tank (on a mag warden, most points in magicka and many CP points into damage) is the final boss in vBF, that might be the one exception.

Bladerunner1

* Lengthen the distance of Mystic Guard / Stalwart Guard to 28 meters, at least while outside of combat.

* A slightly nerfed morph of Bone Shield that costs Magicka, but still scales with health and doesn't outshine a DK's shield.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

* Let the crusher enchant spread across a large AOE circle.

* One completely free swappable Respec slot - not just to save equipment, but to save the distribution of stats and CPs. Who isn't tired of spending 6500 gold and replacing hundreds of incremental stats one click at a time just to do a different role?

* More buff / debuff sets like Livewire

* Add an AOE debuff effect to taunts

There isn't a single enchantment to date that has an AoE Effect, not sure there is reason enough for this to be a thing, it would however solidify Torug's Pact together with Alkosh as THE best debuff sets a tank could be using. Which would also hamper your 3rd point of having more buff/debuff sets, you would have to create something that could outperform the buffed Torug's as well as Alkosh, otherwise the choices would be mostly superficial and never actually chosen. I mean Livewire might be good in PvP but considering this is mainly a PvE thread I don't see it being that much of a set to talk about.

As well you seem to really like the idea of AoE effects, you want Crusher to be a large AoE, and you also want taunts to add a AoE debuff when used, why? Why would this make people tank more? This is again just making tanking easier and more lazy, have everything be an AoE and you have less to do. Sure you didn't say AoE Taunt, but there are already a lot of way to apply many of the useful debuffs. We can't have to many debuffs be accessible though easy to use AoEs, that would make things again, too easy, which will make tanking more boring. There are aspects of Tanking for non DK classes that needs to be updated but AoE easy access debuffs given to any and all Tanks regardless of class will not help the case for DK supremacy.

Now the build swapping thing is pretty cool, most PC players already do this quickly with gear and food with Addons, but Cp and attributes do cost a lot to change.

Damage Dealers and some Healers use the weapon damage glyph to buff everything they do a significant amount. Heavy tanks don't bother with it though since their damage and healing is very low. There is no weapon glyph that helps with a tank's job in an all-encompassing way other than a stat stealing glyph. Tank debuffs tend to be laser focused on one target at a time, and I get that poking many things with Pierce armor is a huge deal of fun for some tanks but it's not an effective use of time when all you're dealing with is trash mobs and a couple of medium strength mobs.

Torug's tanks buff DPS on a single target by around 1.5%, and I heard from someone in another thread that a buff that small was "miniscule". Outside of speed run trials where a handful of seconds makes all the difference Torug's is basically crap for tanking. Livewire buffs groups of stamina DDs and non lightning mages a lot more.

idk

Silver_Strider wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

If ZOS would give every class the proper tools needed to tank effectively (Proper resource management and CC skills) instead of constantly nerfing any Tank playstyle to Oblivion, maybe we'd see more tanks.

Zos has the goal that a tank does not merely taunt and hold block. They are interested in a more active resource management game play vs permablocking. Tanking has not been nerfed to oblivion.

Other than stating we need more tanks, I do not see the reasoning behind it. Certainly Zos should not make it boring simple to tank.

Now, skilled tanks to handle the most challenging content is a different story, but that does not seem to be what this thread is about.

My guess is this thread is merely about 4 man dungeons in which DPS have the simple solution of an off spec, just change gear and skills and you are a tank. Problem solved.

They're nerfing tank PLAYSTYLES, not tanks in general, although they did that as well. The no stamina regen during block hurt many a Templar Tank but they were able to work around that by using repentence on Engine Guardian but ZOS took that away as well, then came the nerf to Blazing Shield Tanks. NB sustain took the largest hit with Siphoning Strike changes, single handedly murdering so many Saptanks in an instant. Sorc Shield Tanks got their Shield duration cut by almost 3/4.

These were all viable and fun tank builds that were used primarily in 4 man content because they weren't effective enough in trial settings but have all gone the way of the dodo. So tell me, how does removing the tools these tanks had translate into making tanking more than Permablocking when NONE of these tanks were primarily focused on permablocking but rather had a gimmick that worked effectively for tanking til they were nerfed?

Eliminating stam regen while blocking happened long ago and Templar tanks adjusted just fine. So well that Templars main tanked vMoL HM. They didn't use engine guardian which is not reliable tenough begin with.

Certainly not even a slight issue in 4 man dungeons.

The he changes to stam have been so tanks were not lasy and just held block 100% if the time. It's been just fine. .

As code pointed out in this thread there isn't a shortage of tanks, just a shortage of tanks wanting to deal with very low dps. I can vouch for that as I've tanked random groups where I am doing 20% and more of the groups damage even though I am in a pure tank build.

Further, there is a small group in these forums who have an issue with "fake tanks" that are part of the solution and as I have pointed out each and every one of you can easily have a tank off spec that can easily handle most dungeons without changing CP or attributes.

There is not a problem.

NyassaV

Tanking is sitting behind block and using the frustrating tab target system to try and taunt the right mob

xiZeroPointix

The problem with tanking is that newer dps players arent aware of the differences between normal/vet 1&2 dungeons. They think for the most part that it is just a continuation of the 1 dungeon. They end up biting off more than they can chew and blame the tank and healer they keep dying.

Then there are "hot-shot" dps...well any tank knows about this issue.

It boils down to lack of respect for tanks in general. Its a thank less job that people believe they dont need. As mentioned earlier in the post. There are good dps that know the game and can solo most veteran content I get that. BUT it is downright disrepectful to someone who has invested the time and effort to make a viable end game tank..which is not easy by any means...they have to know every dungeon and mechanic while being the leader of the team. Making sure your build can survive and that your dps and healer are safe and can perform there roles the best they can. It has a lot of pressure and if the tank fails, so does the team as it is viewed that way...

Group utility is the bread and butter of any good tank. Making your dps stronger..while mitigating damage and taking pressure off of the healer so they as well can do damage. This recipe always leads to success. Letting every role do there part is essential to endgame success.

Knowledge of the player base will make life for tanks better in general and mutual respect for each role will go a long way.

In closing, i would like to see a minimum cp level to be able to que for specific content. As well as a que for normal trials to enable a larger player base to complete content they PAID for.

Lvl 15 normal 1 dungeons
Lvl 15 cp enabled normal 1 and 2 dungeons
Cp 160 normal 2 dungeons and normal dlc content
Cp 300 vet 1 dungeons
So on and so on

Or at minimum have a difficulty rankng system so players are aware of the content they que for.

Something like this will help players be more succesfull completing content and reduce current frustration in the pve community.

I always shake my head when i see 160cp players in vet icp, falkreath hold, wgt, bloodroot. Eso is setting players up for failure with the current system and leaves thousands of people really salty at the end if the day

Spacemonkey

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

So speaking of making things more active, could people give some concrete examples of things they would like changed to make Tanking more active. What needs to be added, removed or changed to make tanking a more active role? Do keep in mind the limitations of an tab-target game before you think of things though, ESO is not Vindictus or Tera. ESO have some action combat elements but at its core is a tab-target game much like WoW, but closer to GW2. I would love to hear what people thing needs for it to be more enjoyable.

Well its been mentioned i think, but it could be interesting to see new tools for tanks. Some kind of a trinity in skill lines. The same way MG / FG is magical/physical (magicka/stam), they could set up or revamp a Healer/Tanking/DPSing tree. Or a simple skill line with triple morphs, one for tanking, one for healing, one for dpsing. (undaunted with a 3rd morph to specialize each skill into one of the 3 roles?)

Any new tanking ability would be attractive for the role, this is true for the other 2 roles also but if tanking is the one suffreing the most, the boost will be the msot important for tanking.


Another point, weapons. The game has 1 weapon for healers, 2 weapons for tanks. (And I've honestly never liked ice staff...). Every other weapon is for dps. Perhaps new weapon lines or weapon revamps to bring more tools to healers and tanks would do the trick also. (That fabled rune&sceptre weapon line could be healing/tanking focused).

None of this is saying you need those weapons or skill lines to tank; But the more you have choices of viable builds and etc... the better the role will fare.

New weapons and skills would make for more variety in tanking, but how would that help in making it less of a "passive" role and more active like people have been complaining about? What is needed to make it more active. As well though, tanking is the role with most options when it comes to what you can wear, there are so many different builds and many that viable for end game in their own way, and in 4 man even more so, tons of options. Now sure, not a lot of options in terms of what type of weapons you have, and while we do have one more now as tanks I agree its really meh. But yea, I don't think skills and gear variations have any effect on how active the role is in this regard.

Well its a bit of an off-putting suggestion because everyone is reluctant to change anything balance-wise - but new 'tool' skills could be anything from a 'grab/charge' that would see you melee-grab an enemy and hop with it to another (great for grouping them up in some scenarios, it would have its niche) to synergy chains (roots that when activated send monsters to caster). I mean the sky is the limit in terms of new abilities/skills you can design for tanks. NPCs have a few, like the order of the hour skill where the 'tank' mob swaps places with the linked mob.

Or new mechanics (akin to the bash/block/dodge), maybe introduce guards (stance), etc...

*armor gear is all passive, not the variety skills bring.
**The thread is aptly named: 'How do we encourage tanking'. Now I might have missed it, but I've yet to see you do anything but refute or complain about others. I understand you like tanking as it is, but don't you have anything constructive to bring to the table?

Yes you did miss it, I did suggest adding role specific achievements that would grant dyes, titles or costumes, such things are always something that draws people in, the trick is the make the achievements in the right way. I am also of the mind set that tanking is pretty good as is atm but am interested to hear other peoples opinion on why they think it is not, which is why I highlighted the bit about people calling it a passive role. Glad to see thou that there are some in the thread that agrees with me that its not as passive as others believe but to each their own. Though I will say this of course that there are Tanking classes that are in dire need of a buff, Templars and Nightblades most of all in my opinion. But what is expected of a tank in its role is pretty ok as is.

Then I stand corrected and I apologize.

- as for specific role achievements, I guess i'm in a minority but I couldnt care less about achievements, never have. And collection rewards will definitly cause uproar with completionists that don't want to tank (or equivalent to dps for tanks that dont want to dps) etc... but I do see the point.

Runefang

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

It boils down to lack of respect for tanks in general. Its a thank less job that people believe they dont need.

In closing, i would like to see a minimum cp level to be able to que for specific content. As well as a que for normal trials to enable a larger player base to complete content they PAID for.

Lvl 15 normal 1 dungeons
Lvl 15 cp enabled normal 1 and 2 dungeons
Cp 160 normal 2 dungeons and normal dlc content
Cp 300 vet 1 dungeons
So on and so on

Or at minimum have a difficulty rankng system so players are aware of the content they que for.

Something like this will help players be more succesfull completing content and reduce current frustration in the pve community.

The game and the player base owe you nothing.

Also CP160 for normal 2 dungeons? Really?

waitwhat

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Its really simple, you can't help tanks.

or healers.

The game is designed about and around doing damage so most people go damager because they get stuff done faster.

"Done Faster" is one of those damager mantras which is purely a construct of the player population but.... they want to apply it to everything.

So group content where if you play as designed, with appropriate numbers of each role, goes well and smoothly if the group know the instance. The go faster crowd begrudge being in an instance for anything beyond the bare minimum and believe you can use damager burn to get past mechanics, which often you can.

So a player who wants to start off as a tank finds overland slow, the try hards in the normal dungeons leaving them behind and if they communicate at all are told "don't need tanks for easy stuff" so they shrug, break out a damager set and start to follow the herd and find overland is now faster and easier too.

So its no surprise that most tanks stick with friends away from pug life and such.

Oh yeah and who wants abuse from a damager who doesn't know mechanics dictates the boss is guaranteed drop aggro?

I will give ESO 10/10 for MMO consistency because it plays out exactly the same as every other triad MMO.

Agreed, and I hate this worship of damage in the playerbase, not least of all because this belief is rarely true in practice.

People think that more DPS characters translates to a faster and easier complete, but that isn't true if:

1. A DPS dies (double dps loss for rez, assuming group doesn't wipe)
2. The boss is running around (Ensures AoEs don't hit for full amount as boss runs out of them; nukes DPS rotations as they *** away resources re-casting DoTs)
3. Mobs don't get pulled together (Takes forever to DoT them all to death when they're off stack)
4. DPS does not, in fact, have the burn to kill everything, including bosses, in 20 seconds or less, and thus gets wrecked by an uppercut/cleave/fireball/steel tornado/mechanic.

Tanking probably isn't as disrespected as healing is, at least on PS4 NA, since it comes across as more "macho" (I kid thee not the dudebro meta is real on PS4), but even in experienced guilds it's treated as something that anyone can do with minimal effort.

The solution: MORE ONE SHOT MECHANICS ON BOSSES AND MOBS; MORE UNPURGABLE ENEMY DOTS. Sounds like it would make things harder for tanks, but no. Let the DPS learn what hasn't been hitting them, then maybe they'll be more appreciative.

leeux

I haven't read all the thread so maybe it was mentioned already, sorry if that's the case...

But, I'd say, it would help if we had easier respecs. I have at least 3 chars that I could turn to tanks and I have all the gear needed (for at least two of them), but that would mean to lose them as the roles they perform at the moment (2 for PvP and 1 DPS) and I cbb to respec each time I need to switch back and forth from those roles.

Specially due to the fact that respeccing roles requires changing morphs and mundus stones, and CPs and attributes and gear... it's just too much to change for the sake of covering a role that I might enjoy doing, but is not my forte.

Ruckly

Extending the quick gear change add-on to consoles might help encourage tanking. I mostly tank with Rattlecage/Prisoner's on a magicka templar and do just fine but I do have the option of swapping out Prisoner's for Plague Doctor if I want 6000 health + 30% boneshield for especially hard hitting bosses or I can swap it out for Soulshine if I need more dps on an add heavy boss.

As far as overland content taking too long on a tank if you have 30k hp with Rattlecage/Prisoner's you can run past everything making a heavy attack every so often to get stamina and go straight to whatever it is you need to do. And when you get there you should kill plenty fast enough. You can even be really cheesy and quick gear swap into light armor.

JackAshes

Increasing the number of tanks is so easy:

Step1: Get a massive butterfly net.
Step2: Head Into Cyrodiil. Locate Zerg.
Step3: Scoop up tanks by the truckload.
Step4: Promise them Cake, Pie, or Bacon (according to preference) to que for random
Vet or normal dungeon. Done!

Or put a toggle on instead of 100k exp for random normal/vet you get 10k/20k AP.

Maura_Neysa

JackAshes wrote: »

Increasing the number of tanks is so easy:

Step1: Get a massive butterfly net.
Step2: Head Into Cyrodiil. Locate Zerg.
Step3: Scoop up tanks by the truckload.
Step4: Promise them Cake, Pie, or Bacon (according to preference) to que for random
Vet or normal dungeon. Done!

Or put a toggle on instead of 100k exp for random normal/vet you get 10k/20k AP.

hmm, our two PvP worlds look nothing a like. I see maybe 1 in 20 tanks in Cryodiil, and that's being generous with calling some of them tanks. If you're not providing any offensive abilities, just blocking and healing, you're not a tank I want in PvP or PvE

JackAshes

Well it’s called levity look it up.... And surely there is a lack of posts on this forum about there being wayyyyy to many tanky specs and perma blockers in Cryodiil. 1 in 20 my ass!

On a serious note if you read OPs concerns it’s around increasing the number of tanks to reduce que times for Dungeons. There is no lack of tanks for Trials both Normal and Vet. Most tanks guild serf just to try and get a spot in a starting line up. So when not looking for that guild they are signing up for pug trials in Grahtwood.

You could literally slap a Pierce Armor on any of those 25k+ hp PvPers and they could tank any normal Dungeon and all but maybe 3 or 4 Vet Dungeons.

So what incentive could get pvpers into pve content? Well it happened during the last Dungeon event......

Food for thought

Iccotak

Help Players build their characters.
Problem with Tanks is that if they can't do their job they are effectively useless. But we punish then harshly. So I say give them advice, tell them what sets they should look into, recommend a youtube channel, maybe help them get the gear.
But I strongly say only do this for guild mates

Iccotak

xiZeroPointix wrote: »

The problem with tanking is that newer dps players arent aware of the differences between normal/vet 1&2 dungeons. They think for the most part that it is just a continuation of the 1 dungeon. They end up biting off more than they can chew and blame the tank and healer they keep dying.

Then there are "hot-shot" dps...well any tank knows about this issue.

It boils down to lack of respect for tanks in general. Its a thank less job that people believe they dont need. As mentioned earlier in the post. There are good dps that know the game and can solo most veteran content I get that. BUT it is downright disrepectful to someone who has invested the time and effort to make a viable end game tank..which is not easy by any means...they have to know every dungeon and mechanic while being the leader of the team. Making sure your build can survive and that your dps and healer are safe and can perform there roles the best they can. It has a lot of pressure and if the tank fails, so does the team as it is viewed that way...

Group utility is the bread and butter of any good tank. Making your dps stronger..while mitigating damage and taking pressure off of the healer so they as well can do damage. This recipe always leads to success. Letting every role do there part is essential to endgame success.

Knowledge of the player base will make life for tanks better in general and mutual respect for each role will go a long way.

In closing, i would like to see a minimum cp level to be able to que for specific content. As well as a que for normal trials to enable a larger player base to complete content they PAID for.

Lvl 15 normal 1 dungeons
Lvl 15 cp enabled normal 1 and 2 dungeons
Cp 160 normal 2 dungeons and normal dlc content
Cp 300 vet 1 dungeons
So on and so on

Or at minimum have a difficulty rankng system so players are aware of the content they que for.

Something like this will help players be more succesfull completing content and reduce current frustration in the pve community.

I always shake my head when i see 160cp players in vet icp, falkreath hold, wgt, bloodroot. Eso is setting players up for failure with the current system and leaves thousands of people really salty at the end if the day

Agreed. Can't say how many times a Healer was not doing their job keeping me alive while I tanked.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Honestly once you've got the game knowledge it's all fairly easy though. Well most of it anyway.

The actual mechanics of being a tank - taunting, blocking, gathering up mobs etc that's all easy though. It's certainly less intense than being DPS who have a lot higher actions per minute.

Those "higher actions per minute"are always the same. At least 50% of the time the tanks next skill is in respones to something they weren't expecting 2 Seconds ago.
Tanking is thinking on your feet.
DPS is a memorized skill rotation
Healing is half way between the two.

Edit: I suppose I should add the qualifier of hard content.
tanking the lllambris twins is in fact as boring as you say.

Lol tanking on your feet? You mean against easily read mechanics that DO NOT EVER change? Seriously, what’s up with these people saying tanking is hard? It’s easy. Especially with a good healer, you can practically sit there for 90% of the content and just taunt stuff as needed and the dungeon would be cake. And yes, I tank.

On the other hand, DPS, you claim it’s only about rotation.....there is a HUGE difference between standing at a targeting dummy and an actual boss. Not only do you get the super fun opportunity to read the obvious boss mechanics like a tank. But instead of standing there eating up damage while sleeping standing up you need to actual move OR you die, then adjust rotations and modify them to be back on track.

There is a reason most people always ask and or talk about DPS parses and don’t ask about tanks. A mediocre tank can get the group through a dungeon. A mediocre DPS can mean losing. There are literally bosses that if the DPS ISNT high enough you 100% lose. You do know that right? You realize the majority of content can be done without a tank correct? You take a healer and 3 DPS pulling 40k DPS do you really think you need a tank? That’s the thing. You DONT need tanks. If they changed that THEN maybe we would see more tanks.

tinythinker

My list:

1. As others have said, make role swapping easier. Like this -- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381240/qol-saveable-specs/p1 If people can quickly and easily swap to a tank spec then back to something better suited for questing, it's less of a pain to run a tank.
2. Make tanking rewarding and necessary outside of trials and some vet forms of DLC dungeons. That is, make it so that runs go faster with a competent tank and give sword and board and frost staff more fun-looking and feel abilities. There is a controversy about AoE taunts, but it isn't a hard "yes" or "no" unless you just like being stubborn. If there are large packs of dangerous mobs that will eat dps and healers alive in short order before they can be burned down then an AoE taunt would make sense and be acceptable. So it depends on how future dungeon development goes. More utility from tanking abilities and passives and sets would also be helpful, though gear sets are usually good about that. But examine the skill lines to see what can be spiced up and get a new coat of paint at the same time.
3. Give an extra prize for roles in need if you aren't in a total premade for group finder. Like an extra key for undaunted, or maybe an extra transmutation geode. Note that this won't totally solve the tank shortage and that will be highly ineffective if #1 and #2 are not worked on first. If they are worked on, people won't see swapping to a tank build to be as much of a burden or a bore, and fake tanks will be drop-kicked out of the run super quick.
4. Improve guild and group functionality. Let us tick which roles we are up for in guild on which characters (that is share what we already tick for group settings), so you could see that for guild member @ somerandomname there is a toon listed as a tank, another as a healer, and two as damage dealers. And let one of our characters who is in a group be auto-replaced by a different one when we relog rather than going through dropping and re-adding every time.

This won't be a magic bullet package, but it would make tanking much more appealing to many players.

Maura_Neysa

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

As to how to encourage tanking, I honestly don't have an answer. My opinion is that the lack of tanks is due to the difficulty of the role. Dumming down the role seems like the only answer, and it you do that, you're going to turn a lot of the current, good tanks off to tanking.

Tanks need to know;
- every boss mechanic, stop everyone they can, and warn everyone when the unstoppable ones are coming
- know every high priority mob. Find them, control them before they wreck someones day.
- We are watching everything, our own damage/ health, the bosses mechanics (interrupts, cleaves, taunt) every mob trying to gather them up and keep them off any one else, which all means we have to watch everything everyone else is doing, because there's always that Stam DPS who thinks right next to me is a good place to be.

Honestly once you've got the game knowledge it's all fairly easy though. Well most of it anyway.

The actual mechanics of being a tank - taunting, blocking, gathering up mobs etc that's all easy though. It's certainly less intense than being DPS who have a lot higher actions per minute.

Those "higher actions per minute"are always the same. At least 50% of the time the tanks next skill is in respones to something they weren't expecting 2 Seconds ago.
Tanking is thinking on your feet.
DPS is a memorized skill rotation
Healing is half way between the two.

Edit: I suppose I should add the qualifier of hard content.
tanking the lllambris twins is in fact as boring as you say.

Lol tanking on your feet? You mean against easily read mechanics that DO NOT EVER change? Seriously, what’s up with these people saying tanking is hard? It’s easy. Especially with a good healer, you can practically sit there for 90% of the content and just taunt stuff as needed and the dungeon would be cake. And yes, I tank.

On the other hand, DPS, you claim it’s only about rotation.....there is a HUGE difference between standing at a targeting dummy and an actual boss. Not only do you get the super fun opportunity to read the obvious boss mechanics like a tank. But instead of standing there eating up damage while sleeping standing up you need to actual move OR you die, then adjust rotations and modify them to be back on track.

There is a reason most people always ask and or talk about DPS parses and don’t ask about tanks. A mediocre tank can get the group through a dungeon. A mediocre DPS can mean losing. There are literally bosses that if the DPS ISNT high enough you 100% lose. You do know that right? You realize the majority of content can be done without a tank correct? You take a healer and 3 DPS pulling 40k DPS do you really think you need a tank? That’s the thing. You DONT need tanks. If they changed that THEN maybe we would see more tanks.

You are a *** tank then. Wow do I hate getting your kind of tank when I heal.
There are more fights you 100% fail without a tank then there are for DPS
No one asks about a tanks ”parse” because you can’t find the answer from a dummy. The only way is to run content with them, because the job is to complex to answer with just one set of numbers.

Silver_Strider

idk wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

If ZOS would give every class the proper tools needed to tank effectively (Proper resource management and CC skills) instead of constantly nerfing any Tank playstyle to Oblivion, maybe we'd see more tanks.

Zos has the goal that a tank does not merely taunt and hold block. They are interested in a more active resource management game play vs permablocking. Tanking has not been nerfed to oblivion.

Other than stating we need more tanks, I do not see the reasoning behind it. Certainly Zos should not make it boring simple to tank.

Now, skilled tanks to handle the most challenging content is a different story, but that does not seem to be what this thread is about.

My guess is this thread is merely about 4 man dungeons in which DPS have the simple solution of an off spec, just change gear and skills and you are a tank. Problem solved.

They're nerfing tank PLAYSTYLES, not tanks in general, although they did that as well. The no stamina regen during block hurt many a Templar Tank but they were able to work around that by using repentence on Engine Guardian but ZOS took that away as well, then came the nerf to Blazing Shield Tanks. NB sustain took the largest hit with Siphoning Strike changes, single handedly murdering so many Saptanks in an instant. Sorc Shield Tanks got their Shield duration cut by almost 3/4.

These were all viable and fun tank builds that were used primarily in 4 man content because they weren't effective enough in trial settings but have all gone the way of the dodo. So tell me, how does removing the tools these tanks had translate into making tanking more than Permablocking when NONE of these tanks were primarily focused on permablocking but rather had a gimmick that worked effectively for tanking til they were nerfed?

Eliminating stam regen while blocking happened long ago and Templar tanks adjusted just fine. So well that Templars main tanked vMoL HM. They didn't use engine guardian which is not reliable tenough begin with.

Certainly not even a slight issue in 4 man dungeons.

The he changes to stam have been so tanks were not lasy and just held block 100% if the time. It's been just fine. .

As code pointed out in this thread there isn't a shortage of tanks, just a shortage of tanks wanting to deal with very low dps. I can vouch for that as I've tanked random groups where I am doing 20% and more of the groups damage even though I am in a pure tank build.

Further, there is a small group in these forums who have an issue with "fake tanks" that are part of the solution and as I have pointed out each and every one of you can easily have a tank off spec that can easily handle most dungeons without changing CP or attributes.

There is not a problem.

You are mistaking what I'm saying. I NEVER stated that you couldn't tank with every class. I said that ZOS has consistently made tanking harder by nerfing certain playstyles, not just permablock builds. You can still play these playstyles but they've become much harder to pull off or just not as rewarding as they once were.