How do we encourage tanking?

Maura_Neysa

Aurielle wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

onemoredragon wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

The solution is simple, one that other MMOs like WoW have had for 10 years now. It is called Dual Specialization! (WoW introduced dual spec in '08). With a single click of a mouse in WoW, the game will swap your action bars, charge your spec, change your gear for you, etc. Want to be a tank? Click. Done. Want to be a healer? Click. Done. Easy peasy.

Unfortunately, in this game it would require a complete progression system overhaul or something like that, I am not sure about the right term. But in general, if resetting your morphs/skills/CP would be cost-free and you could make a preset for different builds inside the in-game interface, it could work somehow similar. Maybe with certain restrictions or limitations.

Dressing Room, or like the new outfit system, for a price you can buy a slot that will store a set up (armor, skills, CP) you could switch freely between setups (outside of combat) but it would cost gold to change what that setup was. The total available slots would need to be low too, like maybe 3 or 6 (one for each role, including PvP/PvE)

I would LOVE this. I'd even be okay with having three saved builds and CP/attribute allocations maximum. I'd start levelling up tanking skills on my Warden healer in a jiffy if I could switch between specs with a single click. As things currently stand, I'd rather spend a few hours grinding a new character through Skyreach than go through the long hassle of respeccing an existing character.

If all it took was shy reach. You've got undaunted, mages guild, go collect enough sky shards... The charater I made during Christmas XP still isn't there yet.

Oh, I know. I was mostly exaggerating, re: Skyreach. I might do it, but I'd probably still give Warden tanking a test run on my healer first before I commit to it fully. I love healing on my Warden, so I'm not about to give that up any time soon or endure the frustration of switching back and forth between tank and heal builds on one character.

I noticed in your sig that you run a frost warden tank... How are you specced? Mostly health and magicka? Dual frost staves, or 1H+S/Frost?

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=20452
S&B + Frost, 40k H with Minor Toughness, 19k S, 14k M with 1800 mag recovery, in Ebon and Torug's

Ep1kMalware

Aurielle wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I've been trying out tanking lately on a few different builds and... I have to say, it's a bit dull. I don't run dungeons with guild mates all that often (our schedules generally don't jive) so I'm usually at the mercy of the group finder. Managing resources while tanking (even on an Argonian DK) is difficult when you're also trying to dish out some damage to make up for your group's 8k total DPS. Even with a competent group, I find that most of my energy is devoted to making sure I don't run out of resources. With the upcoming changes to block cost with Dragon Bones, I feel it's only going to get worse. Also, it looks like the changes are going to reduce the viability of non-DK tanks even more. I've NEVER liked DKs, and would honestly delete mine if I hadn't already invested TWO race change tokens into it.

I've tried doing hybrid DPS/tank builds on my Templar to make it more fun, but it's not really viable for anything other than normals. I've also yet to find or develop a hybrid DPS/tank build that works for my DK. I've considered making a magicka Warden frost DPS/tank, but the thought of grinding up another character is honestly painful (and I doubt it'll be viable anyway -- especially considering that the warden's frost damage skills are tied to max health).

Maybe tanking in ESO is just not for me. I enjoyed tanking in other games that allowed me to do a heck of a lot more than just taunt/debuff the boss, gather up adds, and hold block...

Hmm, soubds like you're doibg things wrong then. Generally in 4 man content resources aren't much of an issue. I'll give you a few suggestions, do with them what you'd like:

Front bar - snb, infused crushing enchant on weapon to help group dps. Snb ulti if high demand for resources.

Backbar - charged lightning destro, weakening enchantment to help protect group. cast harness magica to help group recovery, blood alter to help group health recovery, lightning wall to proc cuncussed, raising group damage 10% and benefitting from harness magica yourself. Firey breath to give +10% fire damage from all sources.

You can lightning attack with heavy to do some aoe damage, restore magica, proc concussed status, and apply your weapon enchantment. You can heavy attack with sword to restore stamina and proc crushing glyph.

This setup works fine in medium armour in veteran trials. YMMV

Don't forget you can utilize synergies to recover resources as well, and buff group dps if you are wearing alkosh.

I might give that a try, though I'm not really looking to tank vet trials (vet DLC dungeons AT THE MOST). Currently running Akaviri Dragonguard, Seducer (which I swap out for Torugs if I'm with competent DPS), and 1p Bloodspawn (still need to get helm) on my DK. I was running frost staff instead of lightning to switch over to magicka blocking whenever stamina became an issue and for more CC, but maybe re-allocating attribute points for the 100th time will help. I think what's so frustrating to me about DK tanking is that so many of our utility and DPS skills are magicka-dependent. I don't have any resource management issues whatsoever on characters that can spec fully into magicka or stamina. A big part of my problem, too, is that I try to do to much when I'm tanking (often out of necessity -- see garbage DPS players in GF -- and also out of sheer boredom). I've been told that as a tank I should be using a skill every 4-8 seconds max, and that I really shouldn't bother too much with trying to do any damage when I'm not doing my standard tank stuff. That's so...well, dull. Which is why I think tanking in this MMO might not be for me. I loved tanking in LOTRO, where you always had tons of stuff to do, even if your DPS wasn't fantastic.

I feel like I probably would have enjoyed tanking in ESO more if I'd tried it out pre-Morrowind sustain nerfs. Stamplar DPS/tank hybrids were probably a little more viable as well before the Repentance nerf. The DPS/tank hybrid I built for my stamplar is still pretty fun in normals and base-game vets, but only if there aren't any other templars in the group.

Oh I hate templar tanks. I wont group withem. Infact I named my magdk: 'I kick templar tanks'.

Different note, if all your util skills are mag based why would you friter it away by blocking =P. I recomend using mag recovery glyphs on your jewelry too. Put cp points into mag recovery and resource return as well. 99.99% of the time you wont die if you heavy attack. my tank rotation more or less consists of (forget name, spikey defense buff), puncture, them harness magica, fiery breath, lightning wall, maybe heavy attack, lightning wall, repeat.

I really only bother blocking attacks that either hurt or knock me down. If I need to I'll use green dragons blood or obsidian shield/green dragons blood.

I'm not sure if swapping in mag recovery glyphs for my block-cost reduction glyphs will help me much, as I'm already running Seducers most of the time along with the Atronach mundus. Also, it's not so much that I'm deliberately frittering away my magicka when I switch to frost staff blocking in emergency resource situations; it's just that sometimes I can't always get enough stam back in time when I'm blocking on S+B (and it's not like I permablock or anything). I can honestly say that I only see healers throwing shards/orbs my way once for every ten runs on average with the dungeon finder. It would be much less of an issue if I ran with a pre-formed group, but as I said earlier, I'm almost entirely reliant on the garbage DPS and healers that dominate the group finder. If more of the DK's tanking-oriented utility morphs were stamina-based, I think resource management would be a little more forgiving for noob tanks like myself, because I wouldn't have to worry as much about finding the right attribute balance. It would also be easier to add in some decent single target damage (rather than the non-existent damage output we do on standard tanking builds) to help out with boss fights when not taunting/debufffing and blocking heavy attacks. You're pretty much forced to go hybrid re: attributes with the current DK tanking meta, and forget about contributing any damage beyond what you provide passively through debuffing.

Eh, maybe I should just grind up a Warden tank and see if it's better suited to my desire for engaging tanking. At worst, it's a few hours wasted in Skyreach.

Try tristat or witchmother food? Also dungeons afford emdless oppertunities to heavy attack. even in vet dungeons I only end up blocking 5% of the time.

kessik221

How do we encourage tanks? by making tank a role worth choosing and actually playing the role of a tank. Most content in 4 man dungeons a tank can easily be replaced with a 3rd dps and you'd get the dungeon completed faster. It could be as simple as making anyone who chooses the tank role gets 50% of their damage reduced while in a dungeon but takes 10% less damage from all sources while in a dungeon\raid.

VaranisArano

kessik221 wrote: »

How do we encourage tanks? by making tank a role worth choosing and actually playing the role of a tank. Most content in 4 man dungeons a tank can easily be replaced with a 3rd dps and you'd get the dungeon completed faster. It could be as simple as making anyone who chooses the tank role gets 50% of their damage reduced while in a dungeon but takes 10% less damage from all sources while in a dungeon\raid.

Because what I really need to encourage me to tank for PUGs is to have my ability to add to poor DPS even further diminished...

On my Pure Tank, I do about 4-6K single-target DPS. That's enough to kill bosses...slowly. Trust me, in a bad PUG, you want your tank to be able to do some DPS. Even my pure tank has a DPS rotation she can do on untauntable bosses or in groups where the DPS is just pitiful.

On my DPS/Tank that I run with Normal dungeons, I can carry a bad group by holding taunt, doing crowd control, and adding in a third DPS. Since I actually can do both roles, I don't see how halving my damage is an improvement.

What I enjoy is content where a tank noticeably makes thing easier. I really enjoyed running the DLC dungeons during the ESO+ trial because my group really benefitted from having a tank to taunt prioriry adds and handle mechanics.

Lynx7386

On the topic of AoE Taunts:

Other games have them for a reason - because the damage dealers in those games are so incredibly squishy that even the weak enemies in dungeons can smash them into red paste. Conversely, the tank classes in those games have incredible damage mitigation and can often take huge amounts of damage like it's nothing.

I remember AoE tanking very fondly in WoW, I did it on both a paladin and a druid early on and then as a death knight. AoE tanking was certainly fun, but mostly because it was a challenge to see just how many enemies you could gather up onto yourself without getting killed while your group AoE's them down.

In ESO, enemy damage is often negligible and the damage dealers can soak up hits nearly as well as the tanks. This is the fundamental problem, and the reason AoE taunts arent even needed (also the reason so much content can be run without a tank at all, but 3 dps and a healer, or occasionally 4 dps). I think this is a balance issue in dungeons that diminishes the role of tanks - if enemies actually did noteworthy damage, so that a tank was always needed, it would be fine, but in that case we WOULD need an aoe taunt because there's no possible way to keep 20+ enemies on you every pull with just the single target taunts we have, you'd run out of stamina or magicka long before you could get the enemies all focused on you.

At launch the devs said they wanted to lessen the necessity of the "holy trinity" in pve scenarios with this game. They did that by not making pure tanks or pure healers as required (essentially by dumbing down the content and making it easy to breeze through with half-roles). Now it's becoming a problem because, despite the lessened focus on the trinity, it's still enforced for group structure and you wind up with people picking the wrong roles just to get into groups and then not being able to fill them.

We're in a limbo between needing tanks and not needing tanks right now, and between tanks being effective or a hindrance on the group. Something needs to be fixed in this regard.

Wifeaggro13

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Simplest way to encourage Tanking would be a reliable, effective AOE Aggro-grabber.

That tanking in this game relies on a single target, short duration, low aggro attack shows that the DEVs have no real understanding of how an MMORPG is supposed to work.

Zenimax have long clung to the mantra of doing things differently just for the sake of being different, problem is "being different" is only ever successful if "being different" works at least as well as that which you are trying to be different from.

Zenimax's problem is that in a lot of cases "being different" in ESO simply doesn't work as well established alternatives.

Zenimax's saving grace is that when they do get "being different" right it is usually a stellar success.

All The Best

No sir, you have no understanding how tanking in this game works. Stop asking for AoE taunts, its not needed, its lazy tanking and thank god the devs agree. Its not just different for the sake of being different, its a unique style of tanking that many of the people playing tanks actually prefer, its far more engaging. As well, like code said, the reason you don't see a lot of tanks in PuGs is not cause there is a lack of tanks, there is a lack of tanks willing to subject themselves to the very real possibility of bad DPS pugs that they can't carry.

@paulsimonps
The second I saw the first post, I knew you would save me the effort of stopping the AOE taunt discussion. Such a lazy solution that wont actually help anything. On to @Code65 's point, I would definitely not be opposed to extra rewards for tanks and healers in group finder. Would it solve everything, no, but I might be more willing to queue as a tank once in a while. Even something simple like doubling the amount of transmute crystals would probably go a long way into encouraging competent tanks and healers to queue.

we dont need an aoe taunt we need a base game design that supports other roles other than DPS for content. unfortunately at the end of the Day when Konk and sage left the game went extremely fast in one direction. and the end game became about indviduals competing for bigger DPS numbers and not a team based accomplishment of doing certain roles in unison