How do we encourage tanking?

Doctordarkspawn

idk wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

I think the problems are as follows;
- It isn't fun to be a tank
- it isn't necessary to have a tank
- it's a nightmare to solo as a tank

It is fun to tank. Especially trials. The reason this thread was created is players having to wait in queue when they are DPS. Many tanks do not like to queue for randoms since the DPS is often low. Something to think about for all the DPS complaining in this thread.

It is necessary to have a tank in trials. Some dungeons it is helpful but then again, with solid dps few trials really need it.

I never had an issue going solo in the open world on my tank. I just swap gear and skills. Not a big deal by any means.

As for the ideas I edited out, I only read a few.

Visually awesome like an Orc from WoW? We can most certainty do without any character appearances from WoW. If that is what you want you are in the wrong game. Besides, we choose the race we want.

Make tanking weapon awesome, that the 2H tanking is kinda Meh. Little bit of information here. The main tanking weapon is not a 2H, it is a S&B. The only 2H weapon designed for tanking is an Ice staff, not something you seem to be thinking. Besides, a 2H tanking axe would do nothing to add or even take away from tanking. Odd idea.

Allow tanks to do more damage - Clearly not a PvP person and again with a 2H sword/axe thing as a tanking weapon. Yes, someone can be tanky with a 2H greatword, but it is not a bonefide tanking weapon.
I stopped there. Seems the ideas presented were really for a different gamae and really do not belong in ESO.. Maybe it is that WoW thing you started with that would explain it all.

Subjective assessment is subjective.

Though, personally, I'd like a tanking weapon with a bit more flair. Poking someone lightly and blocking for most of the time isn't really thematically great. It just reinforces the fact you're doing basicly nothing but waiting for the boss to die.

Maura_Neysa

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

I think the problems are as follows;
- It isn't fun to be a tank
- it isn't necessary to have a tank
- it's a nightmare to solo as a tank

It is fun to tank. Especially trials. The reason this thread was created is players having to wait in queue when they are DPS. Many tanks do not like to queue for randoms since the DPS is often low. Something to think about for all the DPS complaining in this thread.

It is necessary to have a tank in trials. Some dungeons it is helpful but then again, with solid dps few trials really need it.

I never had an issue going solo in the open world on my tank. I just swap gear and skills. Not a big deal by any means.

As for the ideas I edited out, I only read a few.

Visually awesome like an Orc from WoW? We can most certainty do without any character appearances from WoW. If that is what you want you are in the wrong game. Besides, we choose the race we want.

Make tanking weapon awesome, that the 2H tanking is kinda Meh. Little bit of information here. The main tanking weapon is not a 2H, it is a S&B. The only 2H weapon designed for tanking is an Ice staff, not something you seem to be thinking. Besides, a 2H tanking axe would do nothing to add or even take away from tanking. Odd idea.

Allow tanks to do more damage - Clearly not a PvP person and again with a 2H sword/axe thing as a tanking weapon. Yes, someone can be tanky with a 2H greatword, but it is not a bonefide tanking weapon.
I stopped there. Seems the ideas presented were really for a different gamae and really do not belong in ESO.. Maybe it is that WoW thing you started with that would explain it all.

Subjective assessment is subjective.

Though, personally, I'd like a tanking weapon with a bit more flair. Poking someone lightly and blocking for most of the time isn't really thematically great. It just reinforces the fact you're doing basicly nothing but waiting for the boss to die.

If you play like a boring tank you'll be a board tank. Out of every 20 seconds I have 4 I'm not re-applying a skill. Thats if its just a boss, no ads. I have to let skills drop if im Gating or taunting more than 4 ads. DPS is a set repetitive rotation, tanking is dynamic, at my most boring point its just a rotation.

onemoredragon

xaraan wrote: »

First off, everyone talking about solo content in a tank build, just stop. Make a dps/questing setup for your tank character and solo is no issue. There are more than enough skill points, I have a tank of each class and they all have dps builds, maxed crafting, etc and still have points left over. But tank is a group role, not a solo role.

I pretty much agree with the whole post and the amount of whining complaints about 'it's boring to solo as a tank/healer' in this thread makes me point it out. Tank and healer are support roles, want to solo - change your setup or roll a damage dealer.

A solo player kills stuff before it kills them.

Sabbathius wrote: »

The solution is simple, one that other MMOs like WoW have had for 10 years now. It is called Dual Specialization! (WoW introduced dual spec in '08). With a single click of a mouse in WoW, the game will swap your action bars, charge your spec, change your gear for you, etc. Want to be a tank? Click. Done. Want to be a healer? Click. Done. Easy peasy.

Unfortunately, in this game it would require a complete progression system overhaul or something like that, I am not sure about the right term. But in general, if resetting your morphs/skills/CP would be cost-free and you could make a preset for different builds inside the in-game interface, it could work somehow similar. Maybe with certain restrictions or limitations.

Ep1kMalware

onemoredragon wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

First off, everyone talking about solo content in a tank build, just stop. Make a dps/questing setup for your tank character and solo is no issue. There are more than enough skill points, I have a tank of each class and they all have dps builds, maxed crafting, etc and still have points left over. But tank is a group role, not a solo role.

I pretty much agree with the whole post and the amount of whining complaints about 'it's boring to solo as a tank/healer' in this thread makes me point it out. Tank and healer are support roles, want to solo - change your setup or roll a damage dealer.

A solo player kills stuff before it kills them.

Sabbathius wrote: »

The solution is simple, one that other MMOs like WoW have had for 10 years now. It is called Dual Specialization! (WoW introduced dual spec in '08). With a single click of a mouse in WoW, the game will swap your action bars, charge your spec, change your gear for you, etc. Want to be a tank? Click. Done. Want to be a healer? Click. Done. Easy peasy.

Unfortunately, in this game it would require a complete progression system overhaul or something like that, I am not sure about the right term. But in general, if resetting your morphs/skills/CP would be cost-free and you could make a preset for different builds inside the in-game interface, it could work somehow similar. Maybe with certain restrictions or limitations.

Yeh, once every 15 minutes or so would work.

munster1404

Lol, simply make all group dungeons unlockable and playable only when the traditional roles i.e. 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DDs are filled up. To prevent fake tanks implement an online monitoring system permitting a minimum hitpoint (maybe 28K to 30K) or equipped with SnB + taunt to be considered a tank. No one can realistically have high HP without gimping their other stats.

It's pretty obvious why most people choose to play DPS simply because it's more fun. It's instant gratification and players tend to steer towards that. Then the Devs make tanking an even unenviable role by all these nerfs (oops, balancing).

Ep1kMalware

munster1404 wrote: »

Lol, simply make all group dungeons unlockable and playable only when the traditional roles i.e. 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DDs are filled up. To prevent fake tanks implement an online monitoring system permitting a minimum hitpoint (maybe 28K to 30K) or equipped with SnB + taunt to be considered a tank. No one can realistically have high HP without gimping their other stats.

It's pretty obvious why most people choose to play DPS simply because it's more fun. It's instant gratification and players tend to steer towards that. Then the Devs make tanking an even unenviable role by all these nerfs (oops, balancing).

I dunno, with alot of vet content tanks are the mvp. It's fun being the mvp. Tbh. Ever done vmol with 2 #1 score tanks compared to 2 tanks that only completed it once or twice? Tanks can make or break a team lol.

No lie, there's nothing easier and more relaxing than being a dps knowing all you need to worry about is your role and rotation. Sure it's a blast. It's *** thrilling even. But it's my support group that makes that situation happen for me. Tanks/healers are wayyyy underrated. I think the vast majority of players just don't care to really think about it.

Stratti

I’ve been tanking since 2005 more or less exclusively first with wow, little in aoc and most recently in eso.

The truth I watched wow destroy tanking in order to attract more people and it never works. The fact is tanking requires a level,of leadership, a different skill and a front and centre approach to encounters. Most people do not enjoy this and for many it is a source of anxiety.

I do not think you will ever change it through any incentive

Lynx7386

Stratti wrote: »

I’ve been tanking since 2005 more or less exclusively first with wow, little in aoc and most recently in eso.

The truth I watched wow destroy tanking in order to attract more people and it never works. The fact is tanking requires a level,of leadership, a different skill and a front and centre approach to encounters. Most people do not enjoy this and for many it is a source of anxiety.

I do not think you will ever change it through any incentive

The problem is the gamers. As the stereotype goes, most gamers are non socialites that, as you say, get anxiety whenever they're the center of attention. The entire role of a tank is being the center of attention. You're often the first one called out if something goes wrong.

Personally I love the role, I love directing the flow of the battle and being the unkillable all-star at center stage for the group. Its more exciting for me.

idk

Sabbathius wrote: »

Very simple: Dual Specialization!

We already have that. I swap out one staff for restro and slap a heal or two on my bar and heal dungeons. I swap out skills and slot a taunt, sometimes swap out full gear and tank dungeons. It is really simple. CP does not need to change for tanking a dungeon.

We have plenty of tanks in the game. Many just do not want to tank a GF dungeon because of the chance to get low DPS. I used to tank random vets a few times a week. Just chose to not give up so much time going through a dungeon when my tank is doing 1/3 the dps at only 2k dps. Yes, sometimes got decent dps in the group.

See, we all have a choice of using GF or forming our own groups. Tanks tend to go with guild mates or form their own group.

Almost all the posts in the thread are about something that is not an issue. So the real question that seems to be ignored is how to encourage tanks to use GF.

idk

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

I think the problems are as follows;
- It isn't fun to be a tank
- it isn't necessary to have a tank
- it's a nightmare to solo as a tank

It is fun to tank. Especially trials. The reason this thread was created is players having to wait in queue when they are DPS. Many tanks do not like to queue for randoms since the DPS is often low. Something to think about for all the DPS complaining in this thread.

It is necessary to have a tank in trials. Some dungeons it is helpful but then again, with solid dps few trials really need it.

I never had an issue going solo in the open world on my tank. I just swap gear and skills. Not a big deal by any means.

As for the ideas I edited out, I only read a few.

Visually awesome like an Orc from WoW? We can most certainty do without any character appearances from WoW. If that is what you want you are in the wrong game. Besides, we choose the race we want.

Make tanking weapon awesome, that the 2H tanking is kinda Meh. Little bit of information here. The main tanking weapon is not a 2H, it is a S&B. The only 2H weapon designed for tanking is an Ice staff, not something you seem to be thinking. Besides, a 2H tanking axe would do nothing to add or even take away from tanking. Odd idea.

Allow tanks to do more damage - Clearly not a PvP person and again with a 2H sword/axe thing as a tanking weapon. Yes, someone can be tanky with a 2H greatword, but it is not a bonefide tanking weapon.
I stopped there. Seems the ideas presented were really for a different gamae and really do not belong in ESO.. Maybe it is that WoW thing you started with that would explain it all.

Subjective assessment is subjective.

Though, personally, I'd like a tanking weapon with a bit more flair. Poking someone lightly and blocking for most of the time isn't really thematically great. It just reinforces the fact you're doing basicly nothing but waiting for the boss to die.

The comments made in the post I quoted seemed to be about a different game. The funniest was to make a tanking race like orcs in WoW. If that is subjective then well, I am guilty.

Ok, the second funniest comment was to increase the damage tanks do which of course is an extremely bad idea. Not so subjective after all. I guess it is subjective that you may not like tanking. That is fine.

Read my post just before this if you are wondering why this thread was created.

Uviryth

Lynx7386 wrote: »

However, as @vahrokh said, DPS in this game is flawed because there's so many unintended glitches/mechanics that you need to know and master in order to maximize damage output (not everyone can animation cancel effectively). I dont deny that being a good damage dealer requires skill, it definitely does here, but the same goes for healing and tanking. Dont stomp on tanks because you think all they do is act like a meatshield.

The issue with DDs is not the skill required, its the gap between someone who knows and perfects all the glitches (Animation canceling, attackweaving etc.) versus someone who plays the game normally (meaning let the animations play out) is easily half the DPS, even more with DoTcentric builds.
I´d say thats not right and a MASSIVE designflaw.

Aurielle

I've been trying out tanking lately on a few different builds and... I have to say, it's a bit dull. I don't run dungeons with guild mates all that often (our schedules generally don't jive) so I'm usually at the mercy of the group finder. Managing resources while tanking (even on an Argonian DK) is difficult when you're also trying to dish out some damage to make up for your group's 8k total DPS. Even with a competent group, I find that most of my energy is devoted to making sure I don't run out of resources. With the upcoming changes to block cost with Dragon Bones, I feel it's only going to get worse. Also, it looks like the changes are going to reduce the viability of non-DK tanks even more. I've NEVER liked DKs, and would honestly delete mine if I hadn't already invested TWO race change tokens into it.

I've tried doing hybrid DPS/tank builds on my Templar to make it more fun, but it's not really viable for anything other than normals. I've also yet to find or develop a hybrid DPS/tank build that works for my DK. I've considered making a magicka Warden frost DPS/tank, but the thought of grinding up another character is honestly painful (and I doubt it'll be viable anyway -- especially considering that the warden's frost damage skills are tied to max health).

Maybe tanking in ESO is just not for me. I enjoyed tanking in other games that allowed me to do a heck of a lot more than just taunt/debuff the boss, gather up adds, and hold block...

Ep1kMalware

Aurielle wrote: »

I've been trying out tanking lately on a few different builds and... I have to say, it's a bit dull. I don't run dungeons with guild mates all that often (our schedules generally don't jive) so I'm usually at the mercy of the group finder. Managing resources while tanking (even on an Argonian DK) is difficult when you're also trying to dish out some damage to make up for your group's 8k total DPS. Even with a competent group, I find that most of my energy is devoted to making sure I don't run out of resources. With the upcoming changes to block cost with Dragon Bones, I feel it's only going to get worse. Also, it looks like the changes are going to reduce the viability of non-DK tanks even more. I've NEVER liked DKs, and would honestly delete mine if I hadn't already invested TWO race change tokens into it.

I've tried doing hybrid DPS/tank builds on my Templar to make it more fun, but it's not really viable for anything other than normals. I've also yet to find or develop a hybrid DPS/tank build that works for my DK. I've considered making a magicka Warden frost DPS/tank, but the thought of grinding up another character is honestly painful (and I doubt it'll be viable anyway -- especially considering that the warden's frost damage skills are tied to max health).

Maybe tanking in ESO is just not for me. I enjoyed tanking in other games that allowed me to do a heck of a lot more than just taunt/debuff the boss, gather up adds, and hold block...

Hmm, soubds like you're doibg things wrong then. Generally in 4 man content resources aren't much of an issue. I'll give you a few suggestions, do with them what you'd like:

Front bar - snb, infused crushing enchant on weapon to help group dps. Snb ulti if high demand for resources.

Backbar - charged lightning destro, weakening enchantment to help protect group. cast harness magica to help group recovery, blood alter to help group health recovery, lightning wall to proc cuncussed, raising group damage 10% and benefitting from harness magica yourself. Firey breath to give +10% fire damage from all sources.

You can lightning attack with heavy to do some aoe damage, restore magica, proc concussed status, and apply your weapon enchantment. You can heavy attack with sword to restore stamina and proc crushing glyph.

This setup works fine in medium armour in veteran trials. YMMV

Don't forget you can utilize synergies to recover resources as well, and buff group dps if you are wearing alkosh.

Aurielle

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I've been trying out tanking lately on a few different builds and... I have to say, it's a bit dull. I don't run dungeons with guild mates all that often (our schedules generally don't jive) so I'm usually at the mercy of the group finder. Managing resources while tanking (even on an Argonian DK) is difficult when you're also trying to dish out some damage to make up for your group's 8k total DPS. Even with a competent group, I find that most of my energy is devoted to making sure I don't run out of resources. With the upcoming changes to block cost with Dragon Bones, I feel it's only going to get worse. Also, it looks like the changes are going to reduce the viability of non-DK tanks even more. I've NEVER liked DKs, and would honestly delete mine if I hadn't already invested TWO race change tokens into it.

I've tried doing hybrid DPS/tank builds on my Templar to make it more fun, but it's not really viable for anything other than normals. I've also yet to find or develop a hybrid DPS/tank build that works for my DK. I've considered making a magicka Warden frost DPS/tank, but the thought of grinding up another character is honestly painful (and I doubt it'll be viable anyway -- especially considering that the warden's frost damage skills are tied to max health).

Maybe tanking in ESO is just not for me. I enjoyed tanking in other games that allowed me to do a heck of a lot more than just taunt/debuff the boss, gather up adds, and hold block...

Hmm, soubds like you're doibg things wrong then. Generally in 4 man content resources aren't much of an issue. I'll give you a few suggestions, do with them what you'd like:

Front bar - snb, infused crushing enchant on weapon to help group dps. Snb ulti if high demand for resources.

Backbar - charged lightning destro, weakening enchantment to help protect group. cast harness magica to help group recovery, blood alter to help group health recovery, lightning wall to proc cuncussed, raising group damage 10% and benefitting from harness magica yourself. Firey breath to give +10% fire damage from all sources.

You can lightning attack with heavy to do some aoe damage, restore magica, proc concussed status, and apply your weapon enchantment. You can heavy attack with sword to restore stamina and proc crushing glyph.

This setup works fine in medium armour in veteran trials. YMMV

Don't forget you can utilize synergies to recover resources as well, and buff group dps if you are wearing alkosh.

I might give that a try, though I'm not really looking to tank vet trials (vet DLC dungeons AT THE MOST). Currently running Akaviri Dragonguard, Seducer (which I swap out for Torugs if I'm with competent DPS), and 1p Bloodspawn (still need to get helm) on my DK. I was running frost staff instead of lightning to switch over to magicka blocking whenever stamina became an issue and for more CC, but maybe re-allocating attribute points for the 100th time will help. I think what's so frustrating to me about DK tanking is that so many of our utility and DPS skills are magicka-dependent. I don't have any resource management issues whatsoever on characters that can spec fully into magicka or stamina. A big part of my problem, too, is that I try to do to much when I'm tanking (often out of necessity -- see garbage DPS players in GF -- and also out of sheer boredom). I've been told that as a tank I should be using a skill every 4-8 seconds max, and that I really shouldn't bother too much with trying to do any damage when I'm not doing my standard tank stuff. That's so...well, dull. Which is why I think tanking in this MMO might not be for me. I loved tanking in LOTRO, where you always had tons of stuff to do, even if your DPS wasn't fantastic.

I feel like I probably would have enjoyed tanking in ESO more if I'd tried it out pre-Morrowind sustain nerfs. Stamplar DPS/tank hybrids were probably a little more viable as well before the Repentance nerf. The DPS/tank hybrid I built for my stamplar is still pretty fun in normals and base-game vets, but only if there aren't any other templars in the group.

Ep1kMalware

Aurielle wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I've been trying out tanking lately on a few different builds and... I have to say, it's a bit dull. I don't run dungeons with guild mates all that often (our schedules generally don't jive) so I'm usually at the mercy of the group finder. Managing resources while tanking (even on an Argonian DK) is difficult when you're also trying to dish out some damage to make up for your group's 8k total DPS. Even with a competent group, I find that most of my energy is devoted to making sure I don't run out of resources. With the upcoming changes to block cost with Dragon Bones, I feel it's only going to get worse. Also, it looks like the changes are going to reduce the viability of non-DK tanks even more. I've NEVER liked DKs, and would honestly delete mine if I hadn't already invested TWO race change tokens into it.

I've tried doing hybrid DPS/tank builds on my Templar to make it more fun, but it's not really viable for anything other than normals. I've also yet to find or develop a hybrid DPS/tank build that works for my DK. I've considered making a magicka Warden frost DPS/tank, but the thought of grinding up another character is honestly painful (and I doubt it'll be viable anyway -- especially considering that the warden's frost damage skills are tied to max health).

Maybe tanking in ESO is just not for me. I enjoyed tanking in other games that allowed me to do a heck of a lot more than just taunt/debuff the boss, gather up adds, and hold block...

Hmm, soubds like you're doibg things wrong then. Generally in 4 man content resources aren't much of an issue. I'll give you a few suggestions, do with them what you'd like:

Front bar - snb, infused crushing enchant on weapon to help group dps. Snb ulti if high demand for resources.

Backbar - charged lightning destro, weakening enchantment to help protect group. cast harness magica to help group recovery, blood alter to help group health recovery, lightning wall to proc cuncussed, raising group damage 10% and benefitting from harness magica yourself. Firey breath to give +10% fire damage from all sources.

You can lightning attack with heavy to do some aoe damage, restore magica, proc concussed status, and apply your weapon enchantment. You can heavy attack with sword to restore stamina and proc crushing glyph.

This setup works fine in medium armour in veteran trials. YMMV

Don't forget you can utilize synergies to recover resources as well, and buff group dps if you are wearing alkosh.

I might give that a try, though I'm not really looking to tank vet trials (vet DLC dungeons AT THE MOST). Currently running Akaviri Dragonguard, Seducer (which I swap out for Torugs if I'm with competent DPS), and 1p Bloodspawn (still need to get helm) on my DK. I was running frost staff instead of lightning to switch over to magicka blocking whenever stamina became an issue and for more CC, but maybe re-allocating attribute points for the 100th time will help. I think what's so frustrating to me about DK tanking is that so many of our utility and DPS skills are magicka-dependent. I don't have any resource management issues whatsoever on characters that can spec fully into magicka or stamina. A big part of my problem, too, is that I try to do to much when I'm tanking (often out of necessity -- see garbage DPS players in GF -- and also out of sheer boredom). I've been told that as a tank I should be using a skill every 4-8 seconds max, and that I really shouldn't bother too much with trying to do any damage when I'm not doing my standard tank stuff. That's so...well, dull. Which is why I think tanking in this MMO might not be for me. I loved tanking in LOTRO, where you always had tons of stuff to do, even if your DPS wasn't fantastic.

I feel like I probably would have enjoyed tanking in ESO more if I'd tried it out pre-Morrowind sustain nerfs. Stamplar DPS/tank hybrids were probably a little more viable as well before the Repentance nerf. The DPS/tank hybrid I built for my stamplar is still pretty fun in normals and base-game vets, but only if there aren't any other templars in the group.

Oh I hate templar tanks. I wont group withem. Infact I named my magdk: 'I kick templar tanks'.

Different note, if all your util skills are mag based why would you friter it away by blocking =P. I recomend using mag recovery glyphs on your jewelry too. Put cp points into mag recovery and resource return as well. 99.99% of the time you wont die if you heavy attack. my tank rotation more or less consists of (forget name, spikey defense buff), puncture, them harness magica, fiery breath, lightning wall, maybe heavy attack, lightning wall, repeat.

I really only bother blocking attacks that either hurt or knock me down. If I need to I'll use green dragons blood or obsidian shield/green dragons blood.

Ep1kMalware

If you're on ps4 I can get you a bloodspawn helmet rather quickly..

Maura_Neysa

onemoredragon wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

The solution is simple, one that other MMOs like WoW have had for 10 years now. It is called Dual Specialization! (WoW introduced dual spec in '08). With a single click of a mouse in WoW, the game will swap your action bars, charge your spec, change your gear for you, etc. Want to be a tank? Click. Done. Want to be a healer? Click. Done. Easy peasy.

Unfortunately, in this game it would require a complete progression system overhaul or something like that, I am not sure about the right term. But in general, if resetting your morphs/skills/CP would be cost-free and you could make a preset for different builds inside the in-game interface, it could work somehow similar. Maybe with certain restrictions or limitations.

Dressing Room, or like the new outfit system, for a price you can buy a slot that will store a set up (armor, skills, CP) you could switch freely between setups (outside of combat) but it would cost gold to change what that setup was. The total available slots would need to be low too, like maybe 3 or 6 (one for each role, including PvP/PvE)

Aurielle

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I've been trying out tanking lately on a few different builds and... I have to say, it's a bit dull. I don't run dungeons with guild mates all that often (our schedules generally don't jive) so I'm usually at the mercy of the group finder. Managing resources while tanking (even on an Argonian DK) is difficult when you're also trying to dish out some damage to make up for your group's 8k total DPS. Even with a competent group, I find that most of my energy is devoted to making sure I don't run out of resources. With the upcoming changes to block cost with Dragon Bones, I feel it's only going to get worse. Also, it looks like the changes are going to reduce the viability of non-DK tanks even more. I've NEVER liked DKs, and would honestly delete mine if I hadn't already invested TWO race change tokens into it.

I've tried doing hybrid DPS/tank builds on my Templar to make it more fun, but it's not really viable for anything other than normals. I've also yet to find or develop a hybrid DPS/tank build that works for my DK. I've considered making a magicka Warden frost DPS/tank, but the thought of grinding up another character is honestly painful (and I doubt it'll be viable anyway -- especially considering that the warden's frost damage skills are tied to max health).

Maybe tanking in ESO is just not for me. I enjoyed tanking in other games that allowed me to do a heck of a lot more than just taunt/debuff the boss, gather up adds, and hold block...

Hmm, soubds like you're doibg things wrong then. Generally in 4 man content resources aren't much of an issue. I'll give you a few suggestions, do with them what you'd like:

Front bar - snb, infused crushing enchant on weapon to help group dps. Snb ulti if high demand for resources.

Backbar - charged lightning destro, weakening enchantment to help protect group. cast harness magica to help group recovery, blood alter to help group health recovery, lightning wall to proc cuncussed, raising group damage 10% and benefitting from harness magica yourself. Firey breath to give +10% fire damage from all sources.

You can lightning attack with heavy to do some aoe damage, restore magica, proc concussed status, and apply your weapon enchantment. You can heavy attack with sword to restore stamina and proc crushing glyph.

This setup works fine in medium armour in veteran trials. YMMV

Don't forget you can utilize synergies to recover resources as well, and buff group dps if you are wearing alkosh.

I might give that a try, though I'm not really looking to tank vet trials (vet DLC dungeons AT THE MOST). Currently running Akaviri Dragonguard, Seducer (which I swap out for Torugs if I'm with competent DPS), and 1p Bloodspawn (still need to get helm) on my DK. I was running frost staff instead of lightning to switch over to magicka blocking whenever stamina became an issue and for more CC, but maybe re-allocating attribute points for the 100th time will help. I think what's so frustrating to me about DK tanking is that so many of our utility and DPS skills are magicka-dependent. I don't have any resource management issues whatsoever on characters that can spec fully into magicka or stamina. A big part of my problem, too, is that I try to do to much when I'm tanking (often out of necessity -- see garbage DPS players in GF -- and also out of sheer boredom). I've been told that as a tank I should be using a skill every 4-8 seconds max, and that I really shouldn't bother too much with trying to do any damage when I'm not doing my standard tank stuff. That's so...well, dull. Which is why I think tanking in this MMO might not be for me. I loved tanking in LOTRO, where you always had tons of stuff to do, even if your DPS wasn't fantastic.

I feel like I probably would have enjoyed tanking in ESO more if I'd tried it out pre-Morrowind sustain nerfs. Stamplar DPS/tank hybrids were probably a little more viable as well before the Repentance nerf. The DPS/tank hybrid I built for my stamplar is still pretty fun in normals and base-game vets, but only if there aren't any other templars in the group.

Oh I hate templar tanks. I wont group withem. Infact I named my magdk: 'I kick templar tanks'.

Different note, if all your util skills are mag based why would you friter it away by blocking =P. I recomend using mag recovery glyphs on your jewelry too. Put cp points into mag recovery and resource return as well. 99.99% of the time you wont die if you heavy attack. my tank rotation more or less consists of (forget name, spikey defense buff), puncture, them harness magica, fiery breath, lightning wall, maybe heavy attack, lightning wall, repeat.

I really only bother blocking attacks that either hurt or knock me down. If I need to I'll use green dragons blood or obsidian shield/green dragons blood.

I'm not sure if swapping in mag recovery glyphs for my block-cost reduction glyphs will help me much, as I'm already running Seducers most of the time along with the Atronach mundus. Also, it's not so much that I'm deliberately frittering away my magicka when I switch to frost staff blocking in emergency resource situations; it's just that sometimes I can't always get enough stam back in time when I'm blocking on S+B (and it's not like I permablock or anything). I can honestly say that I only see healers throwing shards/orbs my way once for every ten runs on average with the dungeon finder. It would be much less of an issue if I ran with a pre-formed group, but as I said earlier, I'm almost entirely reliant on the garbage DPS and healers that dominate the group finder. If more of the DK's tanking-oriented utility morphs were stamina-based, I think resource management would be a little more forgiving for noob tanks like myself, because I wouldn't have to worry as much about finding the right attribute balance. It would also be easier to add in some decent single target damage (rather than the non-existent damage output we do on standard tanking builds) to help out with boss fights when not taunting/debufffing and blocking heavy attacks. You're pretty much forced to go hybrid re: attributes with the current DK tanking meta, and forget about contributing any damage beyond what you provide passively through debuffing.

Eh, maybe I should just grind up a Warden tank and see if it's better suited to my desire for engaging tanking. At worst, it's a few hours wasted in Skyreach.

Aurielle

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

onemoredragon wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

The solution is simple, one that other MMOs like WoW have had for 10 years now. It is called Dual Specialization! (WoW introduced dual spec in '08). With a single click of a mouse in WoW, the game will swap your action bars, charge your spec, change your gear for you, etc. Want to be a tank? Click. Done. Want to be a healer? Click. Done. Easy peasy.

Unfortunately, in this game it would require a complete progression system overhaul or something like that, I am not sure about the right term. But in general, if resetting your morphs/skills/CP would be cost-free and you could make a preset for different builds inside the in-game interface, it could work somehow similar. Maybe with certain restrictions or limitations.

Dressing Room, or like the new outfit system, for a price you can buy a slot that will store a set up (armor, skills, CP) you could switch freely between setups (outside of combat) but it would cost gold to change what that setup was. The total available slots would need to be low too, like maybe 3 or 6 (one for each role, including PvP/PvE)

I would LOVE this. I'd even be okay with having three saved builds and CP/attribute allocations maximum. I'd start levelling up tanking skills on my Warden healer in a jiffy if I could switch between specs with a single click. As things currently stand, I'd rather spend a few hours grinding a new character through Skyreach than go through the long hassle of respeccing an existing character.

Sylveria_Relden

I've played all three roles over the course of many different games.

I actually prefer Tanking over DPS or even Healing, when it comes to the "trifecta".

There's a few issues when it comes to "encouraging" support classes (not being an idiot and running out into aggro, staying out of damage areas, etc.)- but the biggest way is by giving respect... forget that you're "some kind of hero" because you can "pump out amazedeeps" and remember that without the tank or healer you're going to DIE. (Hence, the reminder of why you needed them to begin with. It's not some COD-style clone FPS where sniper headshots can rule the day)

Treating support classes disrespectfully or with disdain because you think you're hot s**t is a good way to find yourself forever looking for a tank or healer. Usually groups of people who treat tanks and healers with respect have no problems finding them.

Princess_Ciri

i suggest using a carrot

Maura_Neysa

Aurielle wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

onemoredragon wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

The solution is simple, one that other MMOs like WoW have had for 10 years now. It is called Dual Specialization! (WoW introduced dual spec in '08). With a single click of a mouse in WoW, the game will swap your action bars, charge your spec, change your gear for you, etc. Want to be a tank? Click. Done. Want to be a healer? Click. Done. Easy peasy.

Unfortunately, in this game it would require a complete progression system overhaul or something like that, I am not sure about the right term. But in general, if resetting your morphs/skills/CP would be cost-free and you could make a preset for different builds inside the in-game interface, it could work somehow similar. Maybe with certain restrictions or limitations.

Dressing Room, or like the new outfit system, for a price you can buy a slot that will store a set up (armor, skills, CP) you could switch freely between setups (outside of combat) but it would cost gold to change what that setup was. The total available slots would need to be low too, like maybe 3 or 6 (one for each role, including PvP/PvE)

I would LOVE this. I'd even be okay with having three saved builds and CP/attribute allocations maximum. I'd start levelling up tanking skills on my Warden healer in a jiffy if I could switch between specs with a single click. As things currently stand, I'd rather spend a few hours grinding a new character through Skyreach than go through the long hassle of respeccing an existing character.

If all it took was shy reach. You've got undaunted, mages guild, go collect enough sky shards... The charater I made during Christmas XP still isn't there yet.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

paulsimonps wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Simplest way to encourage Tanking would be a reliable, effective AOE Aggro-grabber.

That tanking in this game relies on a single target, short duration, low aggro attack shows that the DEVs have no real understanding of how an MMORPG is supposed to work.

Zenimax have long clung to the mantra of doing things differently just for the sake of being different, problem is "being different" is only ever successful if "being different" works at least as well as that which you are trying to be different from.

Zenimax's problem is that in a lot of cases "being different" in ESO simply doesn't work as well established alternatives.

Zenimax's saving grace is that when they do get "being different" right it is usually a stellar success.

All The Best

No sir, you have no understanding how tanking in this game works. Stop asking for AoE taunts, its not needed, its lazy tanking and thank god the devs agree. Its not just different for the sake of being different, its a unique style of tanking that many of the people playing tanks actually prefer, its far more engaging. As well, like code said, the reason you don't see a lot of tanks in PuGs is not cause there is a lack of tanks, there is a lack of tanks willing to subject themselves to the very real possibility of bad DPS pugs that they can't carry.

@paulsimonps
The second I saw the first post, I knew you would save me the effort of stopping the AOE taunt discussion. Such a lazy solution that wont actually help anything. On to @Code65 's point, I would definitely not be opposed to extra rewards for tanks and healers in group finder. Would it solve everything, no, but I might be more willing to queue as a tank once in a while. Even something simple like doubling the amount of transmute crystals would probably go a long way into encouraging competent tanks and healers to queue.

Aurielle

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

onemoredragon wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

The solution is simple, one that other MMOs like WoW have had for 10 years now. It is called Dual Specialization! (WoW introduced dual spec in '08). With a single click of a mouse in WoW, the game will swap your action bars, charge your spec, change your gear for you, etc. Want to be a tank? Click. Done. Want to be a healer? Click. Done. Easy peasy.

Unfortunately, in this game it would require a complete progression system overhaul or something like that, I am not sure about the right term. But in general, if resetting your morphs/skills/CP would be cost-free and you could make a preset for different builds inside the in-game interface, it could work somehow similar. Maybe with certain restrictions or limitations.

Dressing Room, or like the new outfit system, for a price you can buy a slot that will store a set up (armor, skills, CP) you could switch freely between setups (outside of combat) but it would cost gold to change what that setup was. The total available slots would need to be low too, like maybe 3 or 6 (one for each role, including PvP/PvE)

I would LOVE this. I'd even be okay with having three saved builds and CP/attribute allocations maximum. I'd start levelling up tanking skills on my Warden healer in a jiffy if I could switch between specs with a single click. As things currently stand, I'd rather spend a few hours grinding a new character through Skyreach than go through the long hassle of respeccing an existing character.

If all it took was shy reach. You've got undaunted, mages guild, go collect enough sky shards... The charater I made during Christmas XP still isn't there yet.

Oh, I know. I was mostly exaggerating, re: Skyreach. I might do it, but I'd probably still give Warden tanking a test run on my healer first before I commit to it fully. I love healing on my Warden, so I'm not about to give that up any time soon or endure the frustration of switching back and forth between tank and heal builds on one character.

I noticed in your sig that you run a frost warden tank... How are you specced? Mostly health and magicka? Dual frost staves, or 1H+S/Frost?

xaraan

onemoredragon wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

First off, everyone talking about solo content in a tank build, just stop. Make a dps/questing setup for your tank character and solo is no issue. There are more than enough skill points, I have a tank of each class and they all have dps builds, maxed crafting, etc and still have points left over. But tank is a group role, not a solo role.

I pretty much agree with the whole post and the amount of whining complaints about 'it's boring to solo as a tank/healer' in this thread makes me point it out. Tank and healer are support roles, want to solo - change your setup or roll a damage dealer.

A solo player kills stuff before it kills them.

I just want to add (not to you specifically, just in general), I'm not saying my dps build on my tanks is as good as a straight dps build with everything in CP set up and all, like my tank is swapping gear and suddenly a top trials dps. (Though you can still put up ok numbers if needed) But for solo content like questing and the like, you don't have to change all your CP or anything crazy, just change gear and food type and you are good to go.

But unless you are just leveling the skill line, don't try to dps with sword and board, take that time to level your destro so you can use the frost staff option if you ever desire. Having destro and resto leveled can give you more options in builds when you are tanking anyway.

Valkysas154

Only way i would be interested in tanking over my DPS/Healer build is if there was a AOE Taunt skill

paulsimonps

Valkysas154 wrote: »

Only way i would be interested in tanking over my DPS/Healer build is if there was a AOE Taunt skill

Why? Want an easy and really lazy role to play for easy queues?

Valkysas154

paulsimonps wrote: »

Valkysas154 wrote: »

Only way i would be interested in tanking over my DPS/Healer build is if there was a AOE Taunt skill

Why? Want an easy and really lazy role to play for easy queues?

I heal in dungeons no need for me to have easy queues since i already get that
it's more like every other mmorpg i ever played had aoe taunts for tanks and i don't feel like playing ping pong with the dps

paulsimonps

Valkysas154 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Valkysas154 wrote: »

Only way i would be interested in tanking over my DPS/Healer build is if there was a AOE Taunt skill

Why? Want an easy and really lazy role to play for easy queues?

I heal in dungeons no need for me to have easy queues since i already get that
it's more like every other mmorpg i ever played had aoe taunts for tanks and i don't feel like playing ping pong with the dps

Why want it to be like everyone other MMO? Go play them then? AoE Taunts are not needed, cheapens the role and serves no great purpose. If you want to prevent your DPS's from being hit then taunt the big guys and Crowd Control the small guys. Problem Solved. CC>AoE Taunt any day of the week. We have the tools already, no need to add stuff that just makes things to easy. As well there are plenty of situations where it would be hazardous to use it, not beneficial. For most Trials it would essentially be useless, and for Dungeons we got CC.

Valkysas154

paulsimonps wrote: »

Valkysas154 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Valkysas154 wrote: »

Only way i would be interested in tanking over my DPS/Healer build is if there was a AOE Taunt skill

Why? Want an easy and really lazy role to play for easy queues?

I heal in dungeons no need for me to have easy queues since i already get that
it's more like every other mmorpg i ever played had aoe taunts for tanks and i don't feel like playing ping pong with the dps

Why want it to be like everyone other MMO? Go play them then? AoE Taunts are not needed, cheapens the role and serves no great purpose. If you want to prevent your DPS's from being hit then taunt the big guys and Crowd Control the small guys. Problem Solved. CC>AoE Taunt any day of the week. We have the tools already, no need to add stuff that just makes things to easy. As well there are plenty of situations where it would be hazardous to use it, not beneficial. For most Trials it would essentially be useless, and for Dungeons we got CC.

Well it's just my 2 cents in a topic that is asking what would you want to tank and well That is what would be needed for me to even remotely think of tanking in this game

And if every mmorpg is doing it well maybe just maybe doing something different just for the sake of it is not that great of a thing after all ?