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Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!
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Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.
This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):
https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE
An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.
It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).
Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.
That video just infuriated me.....
The majority of people clearly hate this add on, and all add ons resembeling it, why ZoS literally is sitting on their hands right now with this is beyond confusing. If they cracked down on this it would send a clear signal that this stuff, as was stated when the game first came out, would not, and should not be tolerated. Now that we are here though, they backtracked and dont do anything? Honestly if I had enough money, I would try to officially do something about it.
The only people that hate it are those that love "surprise! you're nearly dead!" ambushes.
I'm sorry, but I prefer a fair fight so I don't really care if somebody uses this addon.
Also, the functions of this addon are in the default UI as a function of "active combat tips" setting. The default UI will tell you when you should block or interrupt or break free based on enemy skill use, in pve and pvp.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You can't see the start of a Leap from stealth/out of your FoV
And that's a problem, given the effectiveness a leap can have.
I'd added it to notifications if it was possible.
But otherwise you can see the start of the leap and react (or try to react) accordingly., nor can you see the start of a Soul Assault - it just happens.
That's exactly where the start is:) And that's why there's no need to have a separate notification for it. It's clear enough as it is.Same with almost any skill cast from stealth (or out of your FoV): Frags, Dark Flare, Incap, Assassin's Will/Scourge, Surprise Attack etc etc
And that's why all of them have the notifications:)Point is I'd like to see atleast the harder to avoid short range snipes viable, since they might be relevant next patch in a certain build.
Hell, I'd love to see longer range snipes viable against decent players, but that'd take some changes from ZOS (e.g. faster travel speed for the projectile).
But why would you want to improve a spammable that crits up to 40% max hp on med armor and stuns to be even more effective?
We can double the damage of SA and see how it feels:) It's dodgeable as well, but at least it's a melee skill.Your addon makes zero difference (at the moment) in duels though, because no one is crazy enough to use Snipe there.
Because the addon is disabled. And because snipe never was a dueling skill. Snipe always was a zerg/xv1/ganker skill. Its awkwardness is offset by its benefits.Look, we can have differing opinions on whether showing a visual cue for incoming projectiles via addon is fine or not, but at the very least you could accept that showing the cast timer (especially for untargeted/stealthed opponents) goes too far.
In my mind it doesn't. At all.
What goes too far is that starting channeling skills doesn't take the caster out of stealth. And lack of at least audio cues for the channels themselves.
While we don't have that my addon will cover for those design shortcomings:)
So what, should ZOS just remove/make instant cast all abilities with a cast time from the game because your addon & the game's API makes them irrelevant? How is that good for the game?
Besides, the damage from stealth is exactly the same these days as it is from out of stealth so don't use that as an excuse. It's often even a downside to cast it from sneak as it stuns the target giving free CC immunity on the very first skill you land.
You really should try to see this from the other perspective - I know you like your addon and are hell-bent on defending it, but the current API is actually harming the game rather than making it better.
He is irrelevant as much as his opinion. The only thing that matters is that this addon is countering mechanics that ZoS decided should be there. ZoS either has to change the mechanics or disable the unofficial way to counter them. Their lack of action on either of these possibilities show just how little they care or know about state of PVP.9 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »
Cool, but why do you run deep fissure on a stam build xdYep, KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. Timing abilities is not cheating. You obviously need to learn game mechanics.
41.8k damage in 1.46s just because I used my brain. Sometimes it helps.
Sometimes it's easier to call for cheating when you have no clue.
You did notice that said "clannfear" in front, right? It's the skill the clannfear pet uses.
Is that Clannfear also using a Charged Weapon & Crit Rush->Reverse Slicing people?
It's the mob he attacked I'm quite sure.
Hmm, it is confusing.
Sorcerers are likely to use the clannfear while stamina though.
I'm wondering if those are procs or passives triggered from skill use though. I do see they used Momentum and Bond With Nature, but that sounds like a Warden so that eliminates the clannfear possibility.
That just isn't easy to read for me.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.
This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE
An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.
It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).
Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.
That video just infuriated me.....
The majority of people clearly hate this add on, and all add ons resembeling it, why ZoS literally is sitting on their hands right now with this is beyond confusing. If they cracked down on this it would send a clear signal that this stuff, as was stated when the game first came out, would not, and should not be tolerated. Now that we are here though, they backtracked and dont do anything? Honestly if I had enough money, I would try to officially do something about it.
The only people that hate it are those that love "surprise! you're nearly dead!" ambushes.
I'm sorry, but I prefer a fair fight so I don't really care if somebody uses this addon.
Also, the functions of this addon are in the default UI as a function of "active combat tips" setting. The default UI will tell you when you should block or interrupt or break free based on enemy skill use, in pve and pvp.
No, they are not.
Default UI does not show opponent's cast timer while your opponent is sneaking/stealthed/out of your FoV, the default UI gives you a short notification after the skill is cast and doesn't even do that in PvP as far as I'm aware.
See the video I posted on my original post - the first part is without the addon (basicly the sound cue is when you'd get "dodge now!") and the latter part is with Miat's addon.Edited by DDuke on October 3, 2017 8:14PM2 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭The last sentence is interesting, considering the UI interface zos balances the game for had the design intent that they feel sounds+ animations are the intended purpose to tracking your enemy. Anything else, according to Sage, was the opposite of skillful play, and not the intended purpose of the game.
That's a complete misinterpretation saying "was the opposite of skillful play". Your own post says they wanted to use sounds rather than UI elements just because the UI needed to be clean and simple, not because it was unskilled to make it a visual icon.
I personally agree with them. I like as little UI as possible. They make a very cool looking world and I'm supposed to hide it behind a lot of UI mess? Sorry, those games that rely on watching too many things on my screen that are not my target and the world around just suck, and I used to play and loved City of Heroes which was very UI heavy even.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.
This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE
An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.
It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).
Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.
That video just infuriated me.....
The majority of people clearly hate this add on, and all add ons resembeling it, why ZoS literally is sitting on their hands right now with this is beyond confusing. If they cracked down on this it would send a clear signal that this stuff, as was stated when the game first came out, would not, and should not be tolerated. Now that we are here though, they backtracked and dont do anything? Honestly if I had enough money, I would try to officially do something about it.
The only people that hate it are those that love "surprise! you're nearly dead!" ambushes.
I'm sorry, but I prefer a fair fight so I don't really care if somebody uses this addon.
Also, the functions of this addon are in the default UI as a function of "active combat tips" setting. The default UI will tell you when you should block or interrupt or break free based on enemy skill use, in pve and pvp.
No, they are not.
Default UI does not show opponent's cast timer while your opponent is sneaking/stealthed/out of your FoV, the default UI gives you a short notification after the skill is cast and doesn't even do that in PvP as far as I'm aware.
See the video I posted on my original post - the first part is without the addon (basicly the sound cue is when you'd get "dodge now!") and the latter part is with Miat's addon.
Well, you can still hear default audio if you're close enough while if you're far away then you can quickly try to fix your health after you get hit and run away, or turn the battle around.
1) These lone snipers/gankers aren't exactly tanks. You can beat them so long as you don't die to the first volley.
2) If they have a group so that you don't have a chance then you probably never had a chance even with this addon.
3) They'll probably just run away if they don't have a group and don't kill your character quickly anyway.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 3, 2017 8:24PM1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭So what, should ZOS just remove/make instant cast all abilities with a cast time from the game because your addon & the game's API makes them irrelevant? How is that good for the game?
On the contrary, it makes them relevant at their original design (hard hitting skills that are hard to hit with) instead of leaving them hardhitting, but circumventing the avoidance part as in sniping from stealth.Besides, the damage from stealth is exactly the same these days as it is from out of stealth so don't use that as an excuse. It's often even a downside to cast it from sneak as it stuns the target giving free CC immunity on the very first skill you land.
It's rather weird to see people trying to find 'excuses' in other people's views on some aspect on the game.
If anybody needs excuses that would be people insisting on obscuring hard hitting skills. The stance 'you can't see me and i can kill you' have always been frowned upon in any games with pvp component. Thus the generally negative attitude towards the concept of 'ganking' in most other games. It's more or less ESO-specific concept when attacking an unaware opponent become a 'feat of skill' instead of a shameful activity.You really should try to see this from the other perspective - I know you like your addon and are hell-bent on defending it, but the current API is actually harming the game rather than making it better.
I'm more than aware about this 'other perspective'. I've been informed about it in, usually, quite offensive manner since this addon came to be.
it feels like you don't see that understanding your view doesn't make me agree with that view. And i got quite compelling reasons to not agree with a view that defends capitalizing on unawareness of the target/victim.
Edited by Dorrino on October 3, 2017 8:30PM1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »The last sentence is interesting, considering the UI interface zos balances the game for had the design intent that they feel sounds+ animations are the intended purpose to tracking your enemy. Anything else, according to Sage, was the opposite of skillful play, and not the intended purpose of the game.
That's a complete misinterpretation saying "was the opposite of skillful play". Your own post says they wanted to use sounds rather than UI elements just because the UI needed to be clean and simple, not because it was unskilled to make it a visual icon.
I personally agree with them. I like as little UI as possible. They make a very cool looking world and I'm supposed to hide it behind a lot of UI mess? Sorry, those games that rely on watching too many things on my screen that are not my target and the world around just suck, and I used to play and loved City of Heroes which was very UI heavy even.
Go back and read. Yes a majority of it concerns why they rolled animations instead of icons with timers. But you missed this part on intent for how they want their game to be played:
"Part of the skill in ESO is situational awareness and seeing when events are happening in the world and in some cases on the UI."
I believe this comment was mentioned back when they left the API open to see what players could do and a few of the add-ons showed your targets Stam and mag pools.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.
This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE
An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.
It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).
Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.
That video just infuriated me.....
The majority of people clearly hate this add on, and all add ons resembeling it, why ZoS literally is sitting on their hands right now with this is beyond confusing. If they cracked down on this it would send a clear signal that this stuff, as was stated when the game first came out, would not, and should not be tolerated. Now that we are here though, they backtracked and dont do anything? Honestly if I had enough money, I would try to officially do something about it.
The only people that hate it are those that love "surprise! you're nearly dead!" ambushes.
I'm sorry, but I prefer a fair fight so I don't really care if somebody uses this addon.
Also, the functions of this addon are in the default UI as a function of "active combat tips" setting. The default UI will tell you when you should block or interrupt or break free based on enemy skill use, in pve and pvp.
No, they are not.
Default UI does not show opponent's cast timer while your opponent is sneaking/stealthed/out of your FoV, the default UI gives you a short notification after the skill is cast and doesn't even do that in PvP as far as I'm aware.
See the video I posted on my original post - the first part is without the addon (basicly the sound cue is when you'd get "dodge now!") and the latter part is with Miat's addon.
Well, you can still hear default audio if you're close enough while if you're far away then you can quickly try to fix your health after you get hit and run away, or turn the battle around.
1) These lone snipers/gankers aren't exactly tanks. You can beat them so long as you don't die to the first volley.
2) If they have a group so that you don't have a chance then you probably never had a chance even with this addon.
3) They'll probably just run away if they don't have a group and don't kill your character quickly anyway.
Actually, I posted another video earlier in the thread regarding the "you can't hear snipe from far away" myth.
In fact, the snipes from far away are easier to avoid as the sound cue plays right after the cast time is complete and the longer travel time gives you more time to dodge it.
Here's the video:
https://youtu.be/W8XxvXwGFV8
My apologies for the audio, I was playing with quite low volume & didn't really feel like recording it all over again. I also tested sniping the person whom I was testing with from maximum range, total times snipe landed: 0.
I agree with your points 1) & 3), point 2) is entirely up to the player (as someone who mostly plays melee stamblade, those archers actually make 1vX encounters easier than having some more competitive build around would).2 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »The last sentence is interesting, considering the UI interface zos balances the game for had the design intent that they feel sounds+ animations are the intended purpose to tracking your enemy. Anything else, according to Sage, was the opposite of skillful play, and not the intended purpose of the game.
That's a complete misinterpretation saying "was the opposite of skillful play". Your own post says they wanted to use sounds rather than UI elements just because the UI needed to be clean and simple, not because it was unskilled to make it a visual icon.
I personally agree with them. I like as little UI as possible. They make a very cool looking world and I'm supposed to hide it behind a lot of UI mess? Sorry, those games that rely on watching too many things on my screen that are not my target and the world around just suck, and I used to play and loved City of Heroes which was very UI heavy even.
Go back and read. Yes a majority of it concerns why they rolled animations instead of icons with timers. But you missed this part on intent for how they want their game to be played:
"Part of the skill in ESO is situational awareness and seeing when events are happening in the world and in some cases on the UI."
I believe this comment was mentioned back when they left the API open to see what players could do and a few of the add-ons showed your targets Stam and mag pools.
So they support this addon then since they support "situational awareness by seeing what is happening in the world on the UI?"
You need to re-read your own sentence you posted, twice.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 3, 2017 8:36PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So what, should ZOS just remove/make instant cast all abilities with a cast time from the game because your addon & the game's API makes them irrelevant? How is that good for the game?
On the contrary, it makes them relevant at their original design (hard hitting skills that are hard to hit with) instead of leaving them hardhitting, but circumventing the avoidance part as in sniping from stealth.Besides, the damage from stealth is exactly the same these days as it is from out of stealth so don't use that as an excuse. It's often even a downside to cast it from sneak as it stuns the target giving free CC immunity on the very first skill you land.
It's rather weird to see people trying to find 'excuses' in other people's views on some aspect on the game.
If anybody needs excuses that would be people insisting on obscuring hard hitting skills. The stance 'you can't see me and i can kill you' have always been frowned upon in any games with pvp component. Thus the generally negative attitude towards the concept of 'ganking' in most other games. It's more or less ESO-specific concept when attacking an unaware opponent become a 'feat of skill' instead of a shameful activity.You really should try to see this from the other perspective - I know you like your addon and are hell-bent on defending it, but the current API is actually harming the game rather than making it better.
I'm more than aware about this 'other perspective'. I've been informed about it in, usually, quite offensive manner since this addon came to be.
it feels like you don't see that understanding your view doesn't make me agree with that view. And i got quite compelling reasons to not agree with a view that defends capitalizing on unawareness of the target/victim.
You are certainly entitled to your views, however wrong they might be.
But this:So what, should ZOS just remove/make instant cast all abilities with a cast time from the game because your addon & the game's API makes them irrelevant? How is that good for the game?
On the contrary, it makes them relevant at their original design (hard hitting skills that are hard to hit with) instead of leaving them hardhitting, but circumventing the avoidance part as in sniping from stealth.
..is just a misconception from your part.
Snipe never was easy to land on a decent player - your addon only made it impossible rather than "difficult".
And not just Snipe - every dodgeable ability with a cast time.Edited by DDuke on October 3, 2017 8:39PM4 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭You are certainly entitled to your views, however wrong they might be.
It's sad you decided to get rid of any rationality in your posts here.
Blaming the guy with different views that he's biased and wrong always was the most accessible cope out when you can't have an upper hand otherwise.
Let me be the stupid biased guy here then:)
Snipe never was easy to land on a decent player - your addon only made it impossible rather than "difficult".
It always was really easy to land a snipe on anybody because it's a spammable from Africa. If the first 4 snipes miss you'll just keep sniping. Given the damage the point never was to land a particular snipe. You just keep spamming.
3 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways . There's no add ons irl to protect you from getting jumped so people walk in groups for safety . This is how gangs get started or what we call guilds in ESO . It's not fair and it's fun but it's real and it encourages people to group for safety .
Eso was made with this system so if you don't think it's fair then tell the Devs . They liked it enough to write it into the game and have never stated it will ever be removed . Mainly because it is a mechanic apart of the ES franchise . No need to change a franchise you don't like just find one you do .
Skill is a relative term in a game where two or more people try to out type one another . My grandfather , rest his soul would be infuriated at anyone throwing around the word skill when it comes to typing . He was a Navy engineer . He believed skill only belonged to things you had to attend university to achieve . Everything else was something a cave man could eventually figure out . Things that were so common the vast majority could all do was not a skill to him .
So morality aside and interpretations of skill aside , ESO is a game with a stealth attack mechanic intentionally designed by the creators . It is intended . It was not intended to be bypassed hence the reason for the API changes made after the creation of Miat's . Their API changes just did not achieve what most had hoped . More then likely because ZoS didn't know how exactly to do this right the first time . But they made their intention with their game clear when they tried to remove stealth detection . The fix was not suppose to give any info on enemy players in stealth . Well @ZOS_RichLambert , you tried but it didn't work . That info is still being transmitted .4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You are certainly entitled to your views, however wrong they might be.
It's sad you decided to get rid of any rationality in your posts here.
Blaming the guy with different views that he's biased and wrong always was the most accessible cope out when you can't have an upper hand otherwise.
Let me be the stupid biased guy here then:)
Never claimed that you are biased, though that goes without saying. We're all biased when it comes to this, because your addon & the game's API affects almost every build (and thus every player) out there one way or another.
Snipe never was easy to land on a decent player - your addon only made it impossible rather than "difficult".
It always was really easy to land a snipe on anybody because it's a spammable from Africa. If the first 4 snipes miss you'll just keep sniping. Given the damage the point never was to land a particular snipe. You just keep spamming.
The farther away you spam it from, the easier it is to avoid. Also, I find it contradictory that you say it's easy to land and then write about the first 4 missing, which is quite accurate even without your addon.
With your addon it's not only 4 snipes that will miss, you can cast 40 and they'll all miss.
Same goes for that sorc hardcasting frags, or Templar with Dark Flare slotted - or that poor magicka NB just trying to get his resources back with a inferno heavy attack. They'll. All. Miss.Edited by DDuke on October 3, 2017 8:50PM3 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways .
1) But this is not a FPS game. This game helps you aim so it takes a lot less skill.
2) This is a game, not real life. Games have to be fair or nobody plays them and they make no money. People don't want it to be like real life or we would all end up as slave labor to the wealthy because of no laws in game to prevent it.
Your argument supporting ganking makes no sense simply because it's a game and they decided before release to make it fair as possible in pvp because any other option would be financial suicide.1 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways .
1) But this is not a FPS game. This game helps you aim so it takes a lot less skill.
2) This is a game, not real life. Games have to be fair or nobody plays them and they make no money. People don't want it to be like real life or we would all end up as slave labor to the wealthy because of no laws in game to prevent it.
Your argument supporting ganking makes no sense simply because it's a game and they decided before release to make it fair as possible in pvp because any other option would be financial suicide.
My statement on ganking is just the truth . It's intended and Designed by the Devs . Don't like it , take it up with them . You are the one that walked into a game that supports Ganking . It doesn't matter what I support , the creators are in charge and they support it .Edited by Rohamad_Ali on October 3, 2017 8:58PM2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Never claimed that you are biased, though that goes without saying. We're all biased when it comes to this, because your addon & the game's API affects almost every build (and thus every player) out there one way or another.
That fact that we are emotionally inclined into prefering one thing over another doesn't have to make us biased and uncapable to communicate.
I understand your stance and nevertheless i have reasons to act against it.
Accepting it, would require me to accept a set of things that i find immoral and undesirable in interactions with other people.
But it's not really hard to understand it.The farther away you spam it from, the easier it is to avoid. Also, I find it contradictory that you say it's easy to land and then write about the first 4 missing, which is quite accurate even without your addon.
Landing 1/1 snipe has always been hard. By design.
Landing at least 1/10 snipes have always been easy. By design.With your addon it's not only 4 snipes that will miss, you can cast 40 and they'll all miss.
Only if you can dodge 40 times in a row.
Unawareness about the sniper from stealth only skews that 1/1 hit chance. That becomes say 50% instead of 10%. My addon makes it possible to reduce it back to 10%.Same goes for that sorc hardcasting frags, or Templar with Dark Flare slotted - or that poor magicka NB just trying to get his resources back with a inferno heavy attack. They'll. All. Miss.
And that is awesome if the target is skillful enough to avoid all of that. I'd only feel respect towards the guy.Edited by Dorrino on October 3, 2017 9:00PM1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways .
1) But this is not a FPS game. This game helps you aim so it takes a lot less skill.
2) This is a game, not real life. Games have to be fair or nobody plays them and they make no money. People don't want it to be like real life or we would all end up as slave labor to the wealthy because of no laws in game to prevent it.
Your argument supporting ganking makes no sense simply because it's a game and they decided before release to make it fair as possible in pvp because any other option would be financial suicide.
My statement on ganking is just the truth . It's intended and Designed by the Devs . Don't like it , take it up with them . You are the one that walked into a game that supports Ganking . It doesn't matter what I support , the creators are in charge and they support it .
So they've never nerfed ganking ability? /sarcasm
They want "time to kill" to be longer in pvp. That's the whole point of Battle Spirit. It makes it more fair to give everyone a chance to win with skillful play instead of having the best insta-death skill. They do support ambushes as a good way to start a fight with an advantage, but they don't want anybody to immediately die unless their build is absolutely stupid.0 -
altemriel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.
This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE
An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.
It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).
Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.
LOL, this is sad! ZOS pls fix this!!
@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober7 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The farther away you spam it from, the easier it is to avoid. Also, I find it contradictory that you say it's easy to land and then write about the first 4 missing, which is quite accurate even without your addon.
Landing 1/1 snipe has always been hard. By design.
Landing at least 1/10 snipes have always been easy. By design.
Not really, if your opponent knows what he's doing. "Gank builds" are typically extremely squishy - all it takes is one Soul Assault combo to erase a would-be ganker, or gap closer to render them useless.
Assuming you can freely spam Snipe 40 times in a row.Unawareness about the sniper from stealth only skews that 1/1 hit chance. That becomes say 50% instead of 10%. My addon makes it possible to reduce it back to 10%.
What is that "50%" based on, personal experience?
There are multiple factors that affect the chance of landing a snipe:- Opponent's reaction time
- Snipe distance
- Lag
You can bring that down close to 0% in some situations, while it's close to 100% in others.
Apart from lag spike scenarios, your addon drags it down to that 0% for almost anyone.Same goes for that sorc hardcasting frags, or Templar with Dark Flare slotted - or that poor magicka NB just trying to get his resources back with a inferno heavy attack. They'll. All. Miss.
And that is awesome if the target is skillful enough to avoid all of that. I'd only feel respect towards the guy.
Is it though, skill?
Or is it someone using your addon, having 1+ seconds (+travel time if projectile) time to decide whether to take that cast time attack to the face or avoiding it entirely?3 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Not really, if your opponent knows what he's doing. "Gank builds" are typically extremely squishy - all it takes is one Soul Assault combo to erase a would-be ganker, or gap closer to render them useless.
Squishiness of snipe ganker is irrelevant since he's in Africa, remember?:)
Failed gank is easily reset.Assuming you can freely spam Snipe 40 times in a row.
Are we considering a duel with snipe ganker?:) I assume a typical 'sniper' spamming it from behind his allies backs.What is that "50%" based on, personal experience?
Those 50% come from the word 'say'. Just like those 10%. Or any numbers in my post.You can bring that down close to 0% in some situations, while it's close to 100% in others.
Apart from lag spike scenarios, your addon drags it down to that 0% for almost anyone.
In 1v1 against a good player - definitely.
In 5v1 against the same player it's much higher.Is it though, skill?
Or is it someone using your addon, having 1+ seconds (+travel time if projectile) time to decide whether to take that cast time attack to the face or avoiding it entirely?
That's exactly skill. How to prevent a danger that it known to you.
As a comparison preventing an unknown danger is luck and has nothing to do with any kind of skill.
Avoiding a snipe each sec for a prolonged time still takes a lot of skill. Avoiding 2 snipes a sec takes more, etc.
How else would you measure 'skill' if not in figuring out and performing the most effective strategy in each case?2 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways .
1) But this is not a FPS game. This game helps you aim so it takes a lot less skill.
2) This is a game, not real life. Games have to be fair or nobody plays them and they make no money. People don't want it to be like real life or we would all end up as slave labor to the wealthy because of no laws in game to prevent it.
Your argument supporting ganking makes no sense simply because it's a game and they decided before release to make it fair as possible in pvp because any other option would be financial suicide.
My statement on ganking is just the truth . It's intended and Designed by the Devs . Don't like it , take it up with them . You are the one that walked into a game that supports Ganking . It doesn't matter what I support , the creators are in charge and they support it .
So they've never nerfed ganking ability? /sarcasm
They want "time to kill" to be longer in pvp. That's the whole point of Battle Spirit. It makes it more fair to give everyone a chance to win with skillful play instead of having the best insta-death skill. They do support ambushes as a good way to start a fight with an advantage, but they don't want anybody to immediately die unless their build is absolutely stupid.
Your view of battle spirit, time to kill and ganking is a little off. In the 1.6 patch on a sustain build with only 21K stam and 3K weapon damage I was able to reach 10K surprise attacks and 12K non empowered soul harvest (pre incap buff, when it used to scale off spell damage). These days my stats are way higher more around 4.5K weapon damage and closer to 40K stam, I hit less and yet TTK feels the same.
The removal of softcaps and CP power creep is why they modified battle spirit again, among many other changes.
They don't want time to kill to be too long, they're trying to find a happy medium via changing game mechanics. Which is why they started transitioning from an overly long TTK (1.7-1.9), to a shorter TTK from Dark Brotherhood. Since this period they've been regularly modifying mechanics to balance TTK. Be it introducing cheap defensive ultimate's, poisons and more proc sets or nerfing cp and sustain, buffing/nerfing heavy armor at various stages. My stamnb can kill most players almost as fast as he used to in 1.6 despite hitting less, because many aspects of the game have changed since that time.The Age of Wrobel.4 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways .
1) But this is not a FPS game. This game helps you aim so it takes a lot less skill.
2) This is a game, not real life. Games have to be fair or nobody plays them and they make no money. People don't want it to be like real life or we would all end up as slave labor to the wealthy because of no laws in game to prevent it.
Your argument supporting ganking makes no sense simply because it's a game and they decided before release to make it fair as possible in pvp because any other option would be financial suicide.
My statement on ganking is just the truth . It's intended and Designed by the Devs . Don't like it , take it up with them . You are the one that walked into a game that supports Ganking . It doesn't matter what I support , the creators are in charge and they support it .
So they've never nerfed ganking ability? /sarcasm
They want "time to kill" to be longer in pvp. That's the whole point of Battle Spirit. It makes it more fair to give everyone a chance to win with skillful play instead of having the best insta-death skill. They do support ambushes as a good way to start a fight with an advantage, but they don't want anybody to immediately die unless their build is absolutely stupid.
I never stated they did or didn't . Adjusting abilities or the amount damage still does not equate to a removal of a system . And you just stated that the Devs have a system in place to keep ganking as fair as possible . So when you have a balance team already making adjustments and a add on author removing the possibility of using those abilities , guess what happens ? Some abilities become useless . That's on @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel and @ZOS_BrianWheeler for allowing players to rebalance abilities through the API in PVP , not Miat . That is their department and if they want Miat on the Dev team then no one can argue their power to do so . I'm guessing they didn't do this intentionally bit who knows . Maybe they like Miat balancing their game for them .
1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Maybe they like Miat balancing their game for them .
The best/worst part they never told anybody about it:) Including myself.
2 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Maybe they like Miat balancing their game for them .
The best/worst part they never told anybody about it:) Including myself.
Being on the balance team has all the fame and glory that comes with it . Just ask @Wrobel . I'm sure you knew what you were stepping into though .1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Not really, if your opponent knows what he's doing. "Gank builds" are typically extremely squishy - all it takes is one Soul Assault combo to erase a would-be ganker, or gap closer to render them useless.
Squishiness of snipe ganker is irrelevant since he's in Africa, remember?:)
Failed gank is easily reset.
Depends - if you spot the ganker you can easily streak up to the ganker as a sorc.
If that ganker used Lethal Arrow/PI, the ganker won't be able to sneak (and will have to spam cloak if stamblade, which is not sustainable) for a loong time due to a bug/feature with DoTs.
And I don't want to talk too much about next patch, but let's just say the best "gank builds" probably won't be trying to snipe you from 40m+ but rather around 20m.
I'd love for Snipe to be viable in duels. It won't - not with the API as it is & the current mechanics (dodge roll during travel time or cast time=skill dodged, rather than dodge roll during travel time only).
If someone is able to freely spam Snipe 40 times in a row at you, that must mean you don't consider that person as much of a threat to deal with (or even utilize/seek LoS).
40 snipes=40s+ time to deal with his/her allies, or close distance to the sniper and deal with it instead.
Also worth noting: with 2,4k regen, I was able to Snipe target dummy for 34 times before running completely out of stamina.
Actually, if you're outnumbered 5v1 it's likely you're already utilizing dodge roll/block to prevent those snipes from hurting you so no, it's not much higher. One might land when someone CCs you but that's about it.
I don't consider a skill that only has a chance to even land in a Xv1 scenario a good ability, let alone worth slotting.
I don't know anyone that would consider it so.
I know for certain I'd much rather have one of those 5 sniping me than Incapping or Leaping my face.Is it though, skill?
Or is it someone using your addon, having 1+ seconds (+travel time if projectile) time to decide whether to take that cast time attack to the face or avoiding it entirely?
That's exactly skill. How to prevent a danger that it known to you.
As a comparison preventing an unknown danger is luck and has nothing to do with any kind of skill.
Avoiding a snipe each sec for a prolonged time still takes a lot of skill. Avoiding 2 snipes a sec takes more, etc.
How else would you measure 'skill' if not in figuring out and performing the most effective strategy in each case?
That's a really fascinating take on skill in video games.
See, what I consider "skill" is always anticipating that unknown danger and preparing for it.
What I consider skill is having a good reaction time, having good game knowledge and knowing exactly what can kill you and what can't.
It's good coordination with team mates and a lot of other things, but not hitting a button when you see that 1s cast bar appear for your opponent (random trivia: average human reaction speed is 0,2s).
It's not removing the entire "unknown danger" aspect from the game while simultaneously accepting every other cast ability as collateral damage.Edited by DDuke on October 3, 2017 10:01PM5 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So what, should ZOS just remove/make instant cast all abilities with a cast time from the game because your addon & the game's API makes them irrelevant? How is that good for the game?
On the contrary, it makes them relevant at their original design (hard hitting skills that are hard to hit with) instead of leaving them hardhitting, but circumventing the avoidance part as in sniping from stealth.Besides, the damage from stealth is exactly the same these days as it is from out of stealth so don't use that as an excuse. It's often even a downside to cast it from sneak as it stuns the target giving free CC immunity on the very first skill you land.
It's rather weird to see people trying to find 'excuses' in other people's views on some aspect on the game.
If anybody needs excuses that would be people insisting on obscuring hard hitting skills. The stance 'you can't see me and i can kill you' have always been frowned upon in any games with pvp component. Thus the generally negative attitude towards the concept of 'ganking' in most other games. It's more or less ESO-specific concept when attacking an unaware opponent become a 'feat of skill' instead of a shameful activity.You really should try to see this from the other perspective - I know you like your addon and are hell-bent on defending it, but the current API is actually harming the game rather than making it better.
I'm more than aware about this 'other perspective'. I've been informed about it in, usually, quite offensive manner since this addon came to be.
it feels like you don't see that understanding your view doesn't make me agree with that view. And i got quite compelling reasons to not agree with a view that defends capitalizing on unawareness of the target/victim.
That is actually the whole point of stealth. The risk was built into the game. ZOS put that element into their game. You happened to throw tantrums about it and you found ZOS’s API house wide open. Not to mention back when your addon told you of players stealthed around you, even gave you their names I believe. That’s pretty bad, you took that element away from those players, and I assume many of them didn’t even know it.
That’s actually all there is to it.9 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways .
1) But this is not a FPS game. This game helps you aim so it takes a lot less skill.
2) This is a game, not real life. Games have to be fair or nobody plays them and they make no money. People don't want it to be like real life or we would all end up as slave labor to the wealthy because of no laws in game to prevent it.
Your argument supporting ganking makes no sense simply because it's a game and they decided before release to make it fair as possible in pvp because any other option would be financial suicide.
My statement on ganking is just the truth . It's intended and Designed by the Devs . Don't like it , take it up with them . You are the one that walked into a game that supports Ganking . It doesn't matter what I support , the creators are in charge and they support it .
So they've never nerfed ganking ability? /sarcasm
They want "time to kill" to be longer in pvp. That's the whole point of Battle Spirit. It makes it more fair to give everyone a chance to win with skillful play instead of having the best insta-death skill. They do support ambushes as a good way to start a fight with an advantage, but they don't want anybody to immediately die unless their build is absolutely stupid.
Your view of battle spirit, time to kill and ganking is a little off. In the 1.6 patch on a sustain build with only 21K stam and 3K weapon damage I was able to reach 10K surprise attacks and 12K non empowered soul harvest (pre incap buff, when it used to scale off spell damage). These days my stats are way higher more around 4.5K weapon damage and closer to 40K stam, I hit less and yet TTK feels the same.
What you were, and are, able to do and what they intend are not one and the same.
If they were then their balance work would be done.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 3, 2017 10:17PM0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »The last sentence is interesting, considering the UI interface zos balances the game for had the design intent that they feel sounds+ animations are the intended purpose to tracking your enemy. Anything else, according to Sage, was the opposite of skillful play, and not the intended purpose of the game.
That's a complete misinterpretation saying "was the opposite of skillful play". Your own post says they wanted to use sounds rather than UI elements just because the UI needed to be clean and simple, not because it was unskilled to make it a visual icon.
I personally agree with them. I like as little UI as possible. They make a very cool looking world and I'm supposed to hide it behind a lot of UI mess? Sorry, those games that rely on watching too many things on my screen that are not my target and the world around just suck, and I used to play and loved City of Heroes which was very UI heavy even.
Go back and read. Yes a majority of it concerns why they rolled animations instead of icons with timers. But you missed this part on intent for how they want their game to be played:
"Part of the skill in ESO is situational awareness and seeing when events are happening in the world and in some cases on the UI."
I believe this comment was mentioned back when they left the API open to see what players could do and a few of the add-ons showed your targets Stam and mag pools.
So they support this addon then since they support "situational awareness by seeing what is happening in the world on the UI?"
You need to re-read your own sentence you posted, twice.
It's not everything on the UI. It's "in some cases on the UI" AND "seeing what events are happening in the world". It's not all in the UI and call it a day.
That means some features they determined were ok to use the UI (checking maps, seeing targets for health levels, etc).
None of those are supposed to help you see cast times from the enemy player (which the devs intended to come from the audio/animation cues). Seeing that cast time violates the design intent laid out, as the developers felt their control system needed to match the camera style view of Skyrim to give equal footing for both vet and casual players.
It's really up to zos to change it if they want. But I have a feeling most of their changes are done with console players in mind and the one-point perspective they bring.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2
This discussion has been closed.