The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
ZoS WTH? Why are you nerfing the DLC dungeons?
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IwakuraLain42✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?
I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...
Dungeons- Imperial City Prison
- Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.
- Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones.
- White-Gold Tower
- Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter.
- Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
- Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.
Those are big nerfs, really
No they arent big nerfs.... for the love of god.. I LOVE White gold tower, but not everyone was able to clear out the portals now due to morrowind nerfs to damage and sustain.....Molag Kena is still hard. they just made the pinion boss easier which I agree.
Kena is one of the easiest bosses in the game if you have a damage shield.
One of the reason why I really dislike the IC dungeons. As a stam players the final bosses are royal PITA to fight against. Show again that the designer mostly have mag classes in mind when they design dungeons ....0 - Imperial City Prison
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angelncelestine✭✭✭✭I think the changes are a good thing. Maybe now more people will want to run these dungeons on vet. From what I have experienced when it comes to these dungeons there are a lot of people that avoid them. I ask "hey wanna do vet (Insert any DLC dungeon)?" "crickets" or "reasons" Um I would but my lucky ICP undies are in the wash lolEdited by angelncelestine on July 19, 2017 2:51PM0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls?Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.
They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.
Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.
I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.
). But SotH difficulty? Please.
The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.
I'll just quote myself:FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.
All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM
I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.
Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope
So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.
There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.
It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.
For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.
Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.
The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.
"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.
I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.
@Dantaria
I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.
Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.
Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.
Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.
The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.
Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.
The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.
I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).
All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.
Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.
You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.
And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.
And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala
You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?
Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.
It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.
If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.
You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.
PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.
And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.
Nah.
How long will it be before casuals cry that the third difficulty mode is too hard? Point me to any example you can find of this happening. As far as I know, people have problems with individual mechanics and scaling, not diffculty itself. Meanwhile, the hardcore crowd, has selfishly been yelling for difficulty increase at every opportunity. The people your describing are -your- side. Even when you come to the most polarizing pieces of content, VMA, most people who say VMA is too hard can point to -something- specific that makes it hard. The random mushroom placements. Et cetera. It's never been ""MAKE IT EASIER" no matter how much you want it to be so you can write these people off, or justify verbally abusing them.
I like Elden hollow. Thematically it's cool, and while the boss battles are not -that- advanced, it's cool enough to keep me interested. I'm sure I could find a use for the gear if I truely tried to, Barkskin seems like it'd be kewl in PVP, if I PVP'd. We can play the Opinion game but it isn't gonna get us anywhere man.
"vRoM isn't hard". Ooookay. Again, your spewing subjective statements of opinion at me. I can make a case that VRoM is a worst designed dungeon but so far you've not actually given me any reason's for it mechanically or design wise besides "OTHER PEOPLE CAN DO IT AND I DONT LIKE IT THEY MUST ALL BE BELOW ME"
You say that nerfing these bosses kills players skills. I beg to differ. The people I saw able to do these dungeons flawlessly were allready leagues above the people you claim to want to improve. This game never taught these things. You may delude yourself into thinking it, but most people doing these and teaching these are MMO veterans who learned these skills, elsewhere. Yes. ESO needs to do a better job of teaching but lets not kid ourselves, it never did teach. Ever.
The gap was allways there. You just never saw it. Or didn't care to, because the game fit your biases. I agree with you. This game does need to reinforce the holy trinity and their importance, teach players situational awareness and teamwork, but lets not kid ourselves. These dungeons, at current difficulty, cant, and wont teach that.
Oh, and @josiahva please, god, learn what the enter key, and paragraphs are, reading this was hell. Spelling is optional but at least break it into pieces so it's not word soup.
First off, this is a forum post. I am not trying to publish it in a book, so the paragraphs really don't matter. If they did, you would start each one with an indent, not block format. Its true that I just don't like Elden Hollow 1 and I will agree that it is very subjective, but my point stands, its easy and can completed on vet mode by the worst group out there. Why bother with a vet dungeon like that? These dungeons in their current state DO teach teamwork and situational awareness. An example: Fighting the Lord Warden: You die if you do not keep an eye on when he flies into the air and calls the meteor. On Kena: You die if you dont know when to move away from the wall of death, she will knock you into it and you will die. On the Inhibitor: if you do not work as a team, you will die. On Xal-Nur: If you do not work as a team, you will die. On Velidreth: A lack of situational awareness will kill you because you are moving in the dark or because you don't pay attention to when you need to roll dodge. So what it is EXACTLY about these dungeons that is too hard? The mechanics are all straightforward. The ONLY thing you can say about vRoM is that it does have a minimum DPS threshold of around 40k group DPS to take the totem down fast enough...that is it. I agree that the vRoM DPS threshold is a weakness that say vCoS and vWGT don't have(groups with extremely bad group DPS can still beat those dungeons as long as they use skill to make up for the lack). Aside from that one thing in vRoM though, there is nothing else that cant be strategized around. So out of all the proposed nerfs, they dont address the one thing that truly IS a problem for newer players without established DPS skills. All the actual proposed nerfs do is make it so teamwork isn't important anymore. Take the inhibitor: Now two people can see/kill the rifts. What this does is make it so you can just pass responsibility for your job off on the "other" person. I will admit that as a tank, there is nothing worse that having the heatstroke DoT and getting rifts while you are trying to survive that DoT at the same time, but it can certainly be done even with 1400 weapon damage(though ZoS made it much harder with the changes to the bow heavy attack where you cant hold a heavy any more, making you actually have to rely on the stamina-costing poison injection). I do actually agree with the nerf that the portals need less health(mainly because pure tank damage sucks so much), but not that they need to be visible to multiple people. The Inhibitor fight and Xal-Nur in particular teach teamwork, but ZoS is in effect nerfing that. One last point..you still havent addressed why people need to be able to complete these on Vet anyway? Why isnt normal good enough for them until they become good enough to complete them on vet? Monster helms? That could easily be addressed by making the stupid things BoE as they should be. Why is everyone in the game entitled to easy dungeons? Answer THAT. Why does it bother you so much that there are hard dungeons out there? Dungeons that take situational awareness and teamwork to complete? You also haven't addressed why you don't support difficult 4-man content, if you did, you would support DLC dungeons being difficult. Why does every dungeon have to be easy? 90% of the dungeons in the game just isn't enough for you?
The first line, and last line, are all I really needed to read on this one. Whatever delusions you have of my position it's clear you cant seperate them from reality.
Xal-Nur teaches Teamwork. Planar Inhib does not. The reason Xal Nur teaches Teamwork, is that each roll has a specific job, and those jobs are multi purpose. DPS ferry the spice, tanks interrupt Nur, so on and so fourth. Planar Inhib on the other hand is the wrong kind of team-work. The game needs to enforce the rolls, not wittle them down by requiring everyone be everything.
Fun fact, I tank too. And the only thing the Planar inhib taught me is to have a DPS bar. It's not adding depth or teaching people. It's demanding people be everything, and if that's the case, why dont we just throw out rolls alltogether?
I'll tell you, what I told the last guy. Word for word.
You want to improve the difficulty, and the scaling at the same time? Four difficulties, each with incremental difficulty up to harder than what vet currently is, fully flesh out the holy trinity and -keep it stable-, institute rigid classes if you have to, and keep it stable.
The planar inhibitor does indeed teach teamwork. There are two ways to do the inhibitor:
1. Pinion stays closed all the time, never open for more than a second. This prevents the heatstroke DoT on the tank, but risks the tank getting portals...this is fine.
2. Tank holds pinion the entire time she is not in coldfire mode. This reduces the risk of the tank getting portals significantly, but the tradeoff is that the tank is guaranteed to get heatstroke and spend resources fighting it.
Both these ways of doing the inhibitor fight require the DPS to have specific jobs....their priority is of course the portals, then the pinion, then the ads, and finally the boss. If one of the DPS fails to do their job in that order, the group fails...hence, teamwork. The same holds true for the healer and tank. Everyone has a job to do, its not a big burden for the tank or healer to close the portals as long as one of the two above mechanics are followed.
You are advocating for an additional 2 difficulty levels. This is all well and good, but you are advocating for nerfs before ZoS even floats that(or a similar) idea. In effect, all this does is take away from those who enjoy hard content to give that content to people who do not enjoy hard content. I could understand even that, but what makes this bad is that those who enjoy easy content ALREADY HAVE PLENTY OF EASY CONTENT, while those who enjoy hard 4-man content have a total of 4 dungeons + vDSA and that is it, nothing else at all(and truthfully I barely even count vICP as difficult). Why do you keep avoiding this issue...that there is plenty of easy content, but little hard content as far as 4-man dungeons go? Its like me taxing you 90% of your income to give it to the poor...and then a month later coming back to take the remaining 10% you have left, all because those poor deserve a chance too...in the meantime you have made me poor to accomplish your goals.
Why do I keep avoiding the issue that I've adressed allready and generally dont advocate anyway? Gee, lets think about that for a second. But before I dismiss you for the last friggin time, I'll do it -again-.
I still call the Planar inhib changes good. I still call the Velindreth changes good. I think that Planar Inhib isn't teaching teamwork and this is making it so the only person taking care of rifts isn't your tank or healer, someone who should never be forced into rolls like this in the first place. I think Velidreth was a crap fight and the less mechanics that need to be delt with at once, the better.
That. Said. You keep trying to convince yourself, and me, that I should just go back to the nice normal difficulty and be thankfull for it. But I've made clear why I hate normal difficulty, so at this point either your not lisening, or your genuinely jumping at shadows. I've not avoided the issue at all, I just wont give you an answer you want.
Again. Until you learn to seperate fantasy from reality, this is the last time I'm responding to you. Your not reasonable. You keep putting words in my mouth and trying to link me with positions I dont hold, and have never made a case for. Until you get that sorted out, there isn't anything more to be said.
Again, you fail to address this issue: There are dozens of easy vet dungeons, while there are only 4 marginally difficult vet dungeons. What justifications do you have to advocate dumbing those few remaining bastions of interesting gameplay down? Answer the question instead of claiming you have already answered it. I am looking for you to tell me exactly why you feel it justified to take difficult content from people who enjoy such content to give it to people who already have far more easy content to play. A fair approach to this would be to INCREASE the difficulty and required mechanics in 4 other dungeons to compensate, but nowhere do they ever increase the difficulty of a dungeon.
What do you find difficult about Velidreth? There is literally NOTHING difficult in that fight. The spikes are easily avoided. The ads are easily killed. Its downright easy to rez if you aren't the tank with all kinds of aggro. Its easy to avoid the orbs. Its easy to avoid the HM AoEs. Its easy to pick up torches. Its easy to find your way back out of the catacombs if you don't waste time fighting ads, lighting braziers and have the foresight to slot a skill that gives you major expedition, HM or not. That fight is all mechanics...nothing at all random in it. It makes you pay attention to everything and teaches situational awareness with minimal teamwork required(aside from DPS focusing ads and following the torchbearer).
So you hate normal difficulty because its too easy, but vet difficulty because its too hard? So instead of getting better and helping others to get better to complete that content, you instead want to make it a medium difficulty stepping stone? But a stepping stone to where? All you have done with this idea is to make it so players can pat themselves on the back thinking they are accomplished. The fact remains that there is no third difficulty and likely never will be. The fact is that all you have done is destroy end-game(ish) content to promote lower difficulty.
All this being said, I don't disagree with ALL the changes. What a disagree with is the overall changes, making these dungeons significantly easier rather than addressing issues that need to be addressed. For instance: In the inhibitor fight, instead of making it so 2 people can kill portals, the could have instead made it so it does a role check(yes, the word is role, not roll). If you are a tank or healer according to your queued role, you would never get portals. That would be a more appropriate approach. In the Xal-Nur fight: Instead of Xal-Nur charging less often, it would have been sufficient that as a tank you don't have to re-taunt him after he fears you. Those would be considered changes that address issues...not the obvious nerfs that they did.
As a kid growing up, I played the old NES game Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Gaiden is a difficult unforgiving game. You have exactly 9 lives(3 lives, 3 continues) to get to the end of the game and beat it(there are a few extra lives spread throughout the game). Instead of whining about the difficulty, I just played the game and over time got good enough to beat the game without ever dying once. It wasn't easy, but learning the game can be done by anyone. It doesn't take special skill, just learning the mechanics and best strategy for a given place. The same is true for the original Super Mario Bros. If you play the original and then ANY of the later games you will be struck with how easy the later games are compared with the original(not that super mario bros. was a difficult game). Its true that nintendo sold many more copies of super mario world than they did super mario bros. but in the end they did a disservice to the original players of the game and its the same thing here. The easier you make content, the more you drive older players away. Players like me who have been subscribing for years. ZoS is catering to new players at the cost of older players, but the mistake being made is that games with no difficult content will not retain subscribers. As a teenager I would never buy a fighting game like Street Fighter or a racing game. I would always buy RPGs. Why? Because of content...RPGs offered so much more content. Without content that I am just not good enough to be able to finish ESO would lose interest for me. I have never run vDSA for instance. Its not that I dont think I am good enough to complete it, I am sure I am, in the case of vDSA its the fact I can never find a group and cant pug it because its not in dungeon finder, but the fact is that is content I have yet to do...therefore I am still interested in ESO. Once it gets to the point where every dungeon and trial is Elden Hollow I, I will be done with the game, and these nerfs are a step in that direction. That is all there is to it.4 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls?Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.
They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.
Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.
I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end. ). But SotH difficulty? Please.
The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.
I'll just quote myself:FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.
All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM
I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.
Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope
So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.
There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.
It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.
For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.
Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.
The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.
"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.
I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.
@Dantaria
I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.
Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.
Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.
Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.
The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.
Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.
The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.
I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).
All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.
Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.
You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.
And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.
And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala
You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?
Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.
It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.
If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.
You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.
PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.
And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.
Nah.
How long will it be before casuals cry that the third difficulty mode is too hard? Point me to any example you can find of this happening. As far as I know, people have problems with individual mechanics and scaling, not diffculty itself. Meanwhile, the hardcore crowd, has selfishly been yelling for difficulty increase at every opportunity. The people your describing are -your- side. Even when you come to the most polarizing pieces of content, VMA, most people who say VMA is too hard can point to -something- specific that makes it hard. The random mushroom placements. Et cetera. It's never been ""MAKE IT EASIER" no matter how much you want it to be so you can write these people off, or justify verbally abusing them.
I like Elden hollow. Thematically it's cool, and while the boss battles are not -that- advanced, it's cool enough to keep me interested. I'm sure I could find a use for the gear if I truely tried to, Barkskin seems like it'd be kewl in PVP, if I PVP'd. We can play the Opinion game but it isn't gonna get us anywhere man.
"vRoM isn't hard". Ooookay. Again, your spewing subjective statements of opinion at me. I can make a case that VRoM is a worst designed dungeon but so far you've not actually given me any reason's for it mechanically or design wise besides "OTHER PEOPLE CAN DO IT AND I DONT LIKE IT THEY MUST ALL BE BELOW ME"
You say that nerfing these bosses kills players skills. I beg to differ. The people I saw able to do these dungeons flawlessly were allready leagues above the people you claim to want to improve. This game never taught these things. You may delude yourself into thinking it, but most people doing these and teaching these are MMO veterans who learned these skills, elsewhere. Yes. ESO needs to do a better job of teaching but lets not kid ourselves, it never did teach. Ever.
The gap was allways there. You just never saw it. Or didn't care to, because the game fit your biases. I agree with you. This game does need to reinforce the holy trinity and their importance, teach players situational awareness and teamwork, but lets not kid ourselves. These dungeons, at current difficulty, cant, and wont teach that.
Oh, and @josiahva please, god, learn what the enter key, and paragraphs are, reading this was hell. Spelling is optional but at least break it into pieces so it's not word soup.
First off, this is a forum post. I am not trying to publish it in a book, so the paragraphs really don't matter. If they did, you would start each one with an indent, not block format. Its true that I just don't like Elden Hollow 1 and I will agree that it is very subjective, but my point stands, its easy and can completed on vet mode by the worst group out there. Why bother with a vet dungeon like that? These dungeons in their current state DO teach teamwork and situational awareness. An example: Fighting the Lord Warden: You die if you do not keep an eye on when he flies into the air and calls the meteor. On Kena: You die if you dont know when to move away from the wall of death, she will knock you into it and you will die. On the Inhibitor: if you do not work as a team, you will die. On Xal-Nur: If you do not work as a team, you will die. On Velidreth: A lack of situational awareness will kill you because you are moving in the dark or because you don't pay attention to when you need to roll dodge. So what it is EXACTLY about these dungeons that is too hard? The mechanics are all straightforward. The ONLY thing you can say about vRoM is that it does have a minimum DPS threshold of around 40k group DPS to take the totem down fast enough...that is it. I agree that the vRoM DPS threshold is a weakness that say vCoS and vWGT don't have(groups with extremely bad group DPS can still beat those dungeons as long as they use skill to make up for the lack). Aside from that one thing in vRoM though, there is nothing else that cant be strategized around. So out of all the proposed nerfs, they dont address the one thing that truly IS a problem for newer players without established DPS skills. All the actual proposed nerfs do is make it so teamwork isn't important anymore. Take the inhibitor: Now two people can see/kill the rifts. What this does is make it so you can just pass responsibility for your job off on the "other" person. I will admit that as a tank, there is nothing worse that having the heatstroke DoT and getting rifts while you are trying to survive that DoT at the same time, but it can certainly be done even with 1400 weapon damage(though ZoS made it much harder with the changes to the bow heavy attack where you cant hold a heavy any more, making you actually have to rely on the stamina-costing poison injection). I do actually agree with the nerf that the portals need less health(mainly because pure tank damage sucks so much), but not that they need to be visible to multiple people. The Inhibitor fight and Xal-Nur in particular teach teamwork, but ZoS is in effect nerfing that. One last point..you still havent addressed why people need to be able to complete these on Vet anyway? Why isnt normal good enough for them until they become good enough to complete them on vet? Monster helms? That could easily be addressed by making the stupid things BoE as they should be. Why is everyone in the game entitled to easy dungeons? Answer THAT. Why does it bother you so much that there are hard dungeons out there? Dungeons that take situational awareness and teamwork to complete? You also haven't addressed why you don't support difficult 4-man content, if you did, you would support DLC dungeons being difficult. Why does every dungeon have to be easy? 90% of the dungeons in the game just isn't enough for you?
The first line, and last line, are all I really needed to read on this one. Whatever delusions you have of my position it's clear you cant seperate them from reality.
Xal-Nur teaches Teamwork. Planar Inhib does not. The reason Xal Nur teaches Teamwork, is that each roll has a specific job, and those jobs are multi purpose. DPS ferry the spice, tanks interrupt Nur, so on and so fourth. Planar Inhib on the other hand is the wrong kind of team-work. The game needs to enforce the rolls, not wittle them down by requiring everyone be everything.
Fun fact, I tank too. And the only thing the Planar inhib taught me is to have a DPS bar. It's not adding depth or teaching people. It's demanding people be everything, and if that's the case, why dont we just throw out rolls alltogether?
I'll tell you, what I told the last guy. Word for word.
You want to improve the difficulty, and the scaling at the same time? Four difficulties, each with incremental difficulty up to harder than what vet currently is, fully flesh out the holy trinity and -keep it stable-, institute rigid classes if you have to, and keep it stable.
The planar inhibitor does indeed teach teamwork. There are two ways to do the inhibitor:
1. Pinion stays closed all the time, never open for more than a second. This prevents the heatstroke DoT on the tank, but risks the tank getting portals...this is fine.
2. Tank holds pinion the entire time she is not in coldfire mode. This reduces the risk of the tank getting portals significantly, but the tradeoff is that the tank is guaranteed to get heatstroke and spend resources fighting it.
Both these ways of doing the inhibitor fight require the DPS to have specific jobs....their priority is of course the portals, then the pinion, then the ads, and finally the boss. If one of the DPS fails to do their job in that order, the group fails...hence, teamwork. The same holds true for the healer and tank. Everyone has a job to do, its not a big burden for the tank or healer to close the portals as long as one of the two above mechanics are followed.
You are advocating for an additional 2 difficulty levels. This is all well and good, but you are advocating for nerfs before ZoS even floats that(or a similar) idea. In effect, all this does is take away from those who enjoy hard content to give that content to people who do not enjoy hard content. I could understand even that, but what makes this bad is that those who enjoy easy content ALREADY HAVE PLENTY OF EASY CONTENT, while those who enjoy hard 4-man content have a total of 4 dungeons + vDSA and that is it, nothing else at all(and truthfully I barely even count vICP as difficult). Why do you keep avoiding this issue...that there is plenty of easy content, but little hard content as far as 4-man dungeons go? Its like me taxing you 90% of your income to give it to the poor...and then a month later coming back to take the remaining 10% you have left, all because those poor deserve a chance too...in the meantime you have made me poor to accomplish your goals.
Why do I keep avoiding the issue that I've adressed allready and generally dont advocate anyway? Gee, lets think about that for a second. But before I dismiss you for the last friggin time, I'll do it -again-.
I still call the Planar inhib changes good. I still call the Velindreth changes good. I think that Planar Inhib isn't teaching teamwork and this is making it so the only person taking care of rifts isn't your tank or healer, someone who should never be forced into rolls like this in the first place. I think Velidreth was a crap fight and the less mechanics that need to be delt with at once, the better.
That. Said. You keep trying to convince yourself, and me, that I should just go back to the nice normal difficulty and be thankfull for it. But I've made clear why I hate normal difficulty, so at this point either your not lisening, or your genuinely jumping at shadows. I've not avoided the issue at all, I just wont give you an answer you want.
Again. Until you learn to seperate fantasy from reality, this is the last time I'm responding to you. Your not reasonable. You keep putting words in my mouth and trying to link me with positions I dont hold, and have never made a case for. Until you get that sorted out, there isn't anything more to be said.
Again, you fail to address this issue: There are dozens of easy vet dungeons, while there are only 4 marginally difficult vet dungeons. What justifications do you have to advocate dumbing those few remaining bastions of interesting gameplay down? Answer the question instead of claiming you have already answered it. I am looking for you to tell me exactly why you feel it justified to take difficult content from people who enjoy such content to give it to people who already have far more easy content to play. A fair approach to this would be to INCREASE the difficulty and required mechanics in 4 other dungeons to compensate, but nowhere do they ever increase the difficulty of a dungeon.
What do you find difficult about Velidreth? There is literally NOTHING difficult in that fight. The spikes are easily avoided. The ads are easily killed. Its downright easy to rez if you aren't the tank with all kinds of aggro. Its easy to avoid the orbs. Its easy to avoid the HM AoEs. Its easy to pick up torches. Its easy to find your way back out of the catacombs if you don't waste time fighting ads, lighting braziers and have the foresight to slot a skill that gives you major expedition, HM or not. That fight is all mechanics...nothing at all random in it. It makes you pay attention to everything and teaches situational awareness with minimal teamwork required(aside from DPS focusing ads and following the torchbearer).
So you hate normal difficulty because its too easy, but vet difficulty because its too hard? So instead of getting better and helping others to get better to complete that content, you instead want to make it a medium difficulty stepping stone? But a stepping stone to where? All you have done with this idea is to make it so players can pat themselves on the back thinking they are accomplished. The fact remains that there is no third difficulty and likely never will be. The fact is that all you have done is destroy end-game(ish) content to promote lower difficulty.
All this being said, I don't disagree with ALL the changes. What a disagree with is the overall changes, making these dungeons significantly easier rather than addressing issues that need to be addressed. For instance: In the inhibitor fight, instead of making it so 2 people can kill portals, the could have instead made it so it does a role check(yes, the word is role, not roll). If you are a tank or healer according to your queued role, you would never get portals. That would be a more appropriate approach. In the Xal-Nur fight: Instead of Xal-Nur charging less often, it would have been sufficient that as a tank you don't have to re-taunt him after he fears you. Those would be considered changes that address issues...not the obvious nerfs that they did.
As a kid growing up, I played the old NES game Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Gaiden is a difficult unforgiving game. You have exactly 9 lives(3 lives, 3 continues) to get to the end of the game and beat it(there are a few extra lives spread throughout the game). Instead of whining about the difficulty, I just played the game and over time got good enough to beat the game without ever dying once. It wasn't easy, but learning the game can be done by anyone. It doesn't take special skill, just learning the mechanics and best strategy for a given place. The same is true for the original Super Mario Bros. If you play the original and then ANY of the later games you will be struck with how easy the later games are compared with the original(not that super mario bros. was a difficult game). Its true that nintendo sold many more copies of super mario world than they did super mario bros. but in the end they did a disservice to the original players of the game and its the same thing here. The easier you make content, the more you drive older players away. Players like me who have been subscribing for years. ZoS is catering to new players at the cost of older players, but the mistake being made is that games with no difficult content will not retain subscribers. As a teenager I would never buy a fighting game like Street Fighter or a racing game. I would always buy RPGs. Why? Because of content...RPGs offered so much more content. Without content that I am just not good enough to be able to finish ESO would lose interest for me. I have never run vDSA for instance. Its not that I dont think I am good enough to complete it, I am sure I am, in the case of vDSA its the fact I can never find a group and cant pug it because its not in dungeon finder, but the fact is that is content I have yet to do...therefore I am still interested in ESO. Once it gets to the point where every dungeon and trial is Elden Hollow I, I will be done with the game, and these nerfs are a step in that direction. That is all there is to it.
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Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Partially because I like debate, partially because the hardcore crowd has stormed enough threads on the other side and they get to get a taste of their own medicine, and partially because I like to expose little moments like, say, strawmanning my position, telling me I advocate positions I dont advocate, et cetera.
Right. So, how often did you fail on the Overfiend, and was the buildup of adds a deciding factor? Did directing DPS to defeat inbound mages and Harvester support before pushing the boss's HP down help at all?
Was your team frequently unable to focus on one of Lord Warden's Shades while it was targetable? Did their fireball attacks cause frequent wipes?
Were you or your teammates unable to wield a gap closer or ranged attack in the Planar Inhibitor, in order to take out portals in a timely fashion? Shield Charge, Crit Rush, Heavy attack, sprint?
Were you or your teammates unable to notice when Velidreth's Gout of Bile was targeting them? Were you or your teammates unable to step around her Diseased Spores, or did you fail to dump your ultimate to prevent them? Were you or they unable to time dodges properly for her Shadow Spine?
In short, which parts of these encounters do you specifically support dumbing down, and why? And if these mechanics are within your ability to learn and perform, why should others have less interesting dungeons to purchase in the future?
For myself, the change I most directly support is the Inhibitor's. It truly will fail a group if one member does not understand it, and I truly cannot force the game to give me, a ranged DPS well suited for the role, the portal mechanic. At least now there will be a better chance of it being assigned to me.
Honestly, since the update and even before it yeah there were plenty of groups that failed Overfiend due to just not being able to DPS that large a group. It was a DPS check. It should still be, but less so to the point where it's not overbearing.
Lord Warden's shades were, along with Planar inhib, were, in a word, padding. I've had plenty of people who couldn''t kill the inhib portals. But the real question is, do these fights lose anything? No. No they dont. These were interrim portions of these fights anyway, they were padding, and the bosses lose nothing due to them being gone.
Assss for Velidreth, yes. Yes. And yes. In every group, I have ever seen someone has died due to the shadow spine. Someone has got hit by the disease spores, invariably, in fact most of the team has. I'm not sure what the 'gout of bile' thing is but quite frankly Velidreth has been one of the team killer bosses for a long time. (I've not done the boss in a while and I never knew names of the attacks until I bothered to look them up, so.)
And even so, this is ZOS doing what people have been telling them to do, since the sustain nerfs came to be: They are ajusting the resource drain mechanics to compensate for the sustain we lost.
You call these dungeons 'interesting'. I dont. I've talked with the people who bought these dungeons, and even in PVE guilds as a whole, nobody wants to do them for fun. People go. People do the dungeons for the masks. People leave. "interesting'? More like frustraiting.
Even the Xal Nur changes are not necessarily dumbing the fight down. If I'm not mistaken, Brutal Bellow is the yell and universal damage. The only other thing they did was make him charge less often (And lets be honest, most of the challenge comes from the adds and the mechanics anyway) and made him stop reseting taunt. (Thank god.) I dont see how you can call this dumbing down when the entire point of the fight the routine of get spice out, mop up, repeat.
I support all of the changes made to these dungeons. Some of them removed padding. Some of them were common sense given the balance changes that have occured, some of them are just common sense in general given previous powers simply didn't have visual effects. I see the people rebelling against them as knee jerk and irrational. And if you think that 'interesting' means taking thirty minutes longer than it otherwise would, I regret to inform you, that I dont see it that way. It's not interesting, it's just annoying.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on July 20, 2017 6:55PM1 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭I find it irrational you want to make the few hard dungeons faceroll content. Just because you call something irrational doesn't mean it is. Some of these changes are fine, but the nerfing as a whole is not. Just because you want every dungeon to be Fungal Grotto 1 doesn't mean the rest of us do.0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I find it irrational you want to make the few hard dungeons faceroll content. Just because you call something irrational doesn't mean it is. Some of these changes are fine, but the nerfing as a whole is not. Just because you want every dungeon to be Fungal Grotto 1 doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Do I really need to post the gif again? I mean we've allready established you view any and all change as making the content faceroll easy, there's nothing more to be said mate. You cant have a conversation with a fanatic.
I'm going to continue talking with the few people rational enough in this thread to still have a conversation,. not you.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on July 20, 2017 6:50PM0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...PLEASE don't do the same thing to the DLC dungeons. Yes, the inhibitor and xal-nur are hard fights...but they should be, this is your elite dungeon content, you have normal mode to faceroll, leave our vet dungeons alone! Xal-Nur doesnt need a nerf to his charge...or his roar. It goes like this as a tank...
1. Xal Nur fears you.....you break free
2. Xal Nur charges....you block and interrupt his charge by standing blocking in his AoE
3. Re-taunt Xal Nur to re-apply his aggro on you
I do this routinely on a tank with just 20k stam with NO BLOCK COST REDUCTION aside from some CP in shadow ward. My armor isnt sturdy....I dont use cost reduction glyphs...I do all that with 20k stam in between casting rapids to run 1st leg of spice. WHY ARE YOU REDUCING HIS CHARGES AND HIS BREAKING OF TAUNT? If a tank cant handle all that, thats a learn to play issue.
The same applies to the nerfs to vICP and vWGT. These are elite dungeons...please leave them alone. Already they can be done by any halfway competent group.We want HARDER 4-man content, not easier, this is NOT the way to make people feel they are getting stronger, all it does is take away the challenge for people like me, who enjoy pugging these dungeons...the last thing I want is another Elden Hollow I...I never run that place, pledge or not.
Here let me help this make more sense to you. The shittiest players before morrowind are like god after morrowind. All you get in dungeons these days are absolitely vile light attack spammers. I quit tanking pugs. I won't do it period. Last night I did vet crypt1. Last boss had no whipes, and it took 45 minutes to kill the boss. The whole dungeon took almost 2 hours.
I have actually seen people take almost 10 minutes to kill bosses on a normal dungeon. With their sustain/damage nerfs we lost alot of players, amd gained alot of newer, crappier players. The casuals also took a hit and are seeing more difficulties.
upload photos in fb1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I still don't get why the Vet versions get touched. If you can't beat vet then normal is the place for you. Even grants a key..
Doesn't grant a helm. I would guess that's part of the reason.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis2 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭newtinmpls wrote: »
boohoo though. Maybe they should stop light attaking and verbally abusing people trying to help them. Those dungeons are ONLY hard because they force you to rely on your teamates. If your teamate is dumb, lazy, and doesn't care and only there so they can parasitically accept a carry them you're going to have a bad time.
^ Just happens way, way too often. If zmax played their own game they would see this as being the issue, not the dungeons themselves.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »
Should you get a helm if you can't do vet? We have a lot of not so great players getting carried solely by their proc sets already. If you think that should be encouraged - then yes, we need all vet content toned down to faceroll difficulty.
@Doctordarkspawn
We also have established that your view is what many of the defending people here would love, but that it has the severe drawback of not ever becoming reality. If you have two choices which share the same goal - one is good but stays a dream with a 99.9% probability (3rd tier difficulty) and the other one is bad (vet content nerfs without compensation elsewhere), what's there to argue for?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »You call these dungeons 'interesting'. I dont. I've talked with the people who bought these dungeons, and even in PVE guilds as a whole, nobody wants to do them for fun. People go. People do the dungeons for the masks. People leave. "interesting'? More like frustraiting.
Dungeon are interesting at the beggining ,because it's difficult and new !
I don't have heal , but i will do the Bloodroot Forge even if the mask is for heals . Same thing for Falkreath Hold even if the mask is really bad and useless .
Once time you have done all achievment step by step ( Vcos - Vcos HM - Vcos run - Vcos no death - Vcos without the atronach light HM ... ) it's no more interesting ! Because at this moment you understand that the dungeon don't have any other challenge for you .
and with the update , this will be the beggining of nerfs on these dungeon , we have seen the Icp and the WGT dungeon nerfed ... update after update ... . And this is what will happend to SoTH dungeons ... it's the first nerf but more will come ....
Edited by Apherius on July 21, 2017 11:03AM0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »
Should you get a helm if you can't do vet? We have a lot of not so great players getting carried solely by their proc sets already. If you think that should be encouraged - then yes, we need all vet content toned down to faceroll difficulty.
@Doctordarkspawn
We also have established that your view is what many of the defending people here would love, but that it has the severe drawback of not ever becoming reality. If you have two choices which share the same goal - one is good but stays a dream with a 99.9% probability (3rd tier difficulty) and the other one is bad (vet content nerfs without compensation elsewhere), what's there to argue for?
In no way do any of these changes do what you think they do.
The only one that comes close is Xal Nur, and lets be honest, much of the difficulty of team co-ordination of that fight remains intact. Velidreth's hardmode difficulty is unchanged. Planar Inhibitor and Lord Warden's padding were cut down.
You are over-reacting, and if more people -lobbied- for a difficulty rebalance, it might -become- a reality. But that would be inconvenient for the narritive you wish to push, which is "It's a nice dream but sit down and shut up otherwise your making the content worse".
@Feanor I have very little to say other than what I've said here, your making a mountain out of a molehill and taking very deliberate steps not to -make- a difficulty rebalance a reality in order to win a petty arguement.0 -
Integral1900✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That's an aweful lot of text for a really simple answer lmao
They make it easier so that they can draw in more players, most players are not as good as you lot, the bulk of them have enough trouble with normal, ZOS wants to get more of them into vet to get them invested and so keep them playing longer and spending more cash
Simple truth is that the casuals are the vast bulk of the game, I've worked in mmo games for ten years and it is always the case, they are anywhere up to 95% or more of the total, they pay most of the bills and they will always be the focus, no amount of arguing, name calling and bickering will change that1 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭The difficulty of some of the vet dungeons is not just an issue for casuals. Even experienced players who are well above average skill have to each day go looking for other experienced players to group with rather than use the dungeon queue because ones like Vet Mazzatun and Cradle of Shadows are too difficult to get through with the players you normally get queue'd with. You may luck out and get a good group through Dungeon finder from time to time but especially on console it is way too time consuming when all you want to do is complete the daily pledges as quickly as possible.Edited by Twohothardware on July 22, 2017 12:25AM0 -
Better yet, have an option to not do DLC on a random normal dungeon. How many times do you want a fast random normal and you end up with RoM/ICP/WGT? ~ I wouldn't mind taking a 10% exp hit or something to opt out of this, because it's almost always a guaranteed waste of time unless you can completely carry, which when levelling a new char isn't always an option.
I would keep them in random vets, because you should be prepared to be buff as hell!Edited by SiliconShadow on July 24, 2017 9:58AM0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭doesn't change anything imo. People are still not going to release the lizards when required to do so and still not take turns transferring the spice.
like the planar inhibitor where your blue flames for....ever...
it will still be avoided like the plague. Most vet mazz runs are daily random vet and they don't get past the steps down because people drop out as soon as they find out its a dlc dungeon.
I'm not against elite dungeons but they should not be part of the activity finder or randoms. They should be in their own category, give greater rewards(more keys), and have higher entry requirements.
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Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »The problem with these dungeons (in my opinion) is that this is DLC content that is sold and needs to sell.
Most (non-)elite player that I know actually fear running the SotH (and to a lesser extend) and IC dungeons, the former even on Normal. While I agree that there should be challenging content for elite player the fact remains that these DLCs need to sell. I'm pretty sure the completion rate of the Veteran versions is very low. All in all I think these are sensible changes.
Yes, DLCs need to sell.
And IMO they are doing a fine job so far. The first audience they sell the DLC to are experienced players, and then gradually those DLC dungeons gain new audience when they get nerfed.
In my experience, the nerfs to DLC dungeons are usually good.
I remember a time when only the ultra l337 could finish vICP brcause the "meta" said Ibomez should be bursted to avoid mechanics. Since all people are sheeps, nobody ever bothered to actually learn the mechanics.
After the mechanics got nerfed, and Ibomez finally got damage reduction instead of a shield, people started to do the mechanics and the success rate of vICP completion spiked sky high.
Again, I am fine with minor nerfs, as long as they give experienced player new hard dungens to chew through, which they do.
Well, at least two per year
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josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »The problem with these dungeons (in my opinion) is that this is DLC content that is sold and needs to sell.
Most (non-)elite player that I know actually fear running the SotH (and to a lesser extend) and IC dungeons, the former even on Normal. While I agree that there should be challenging content for elite player the fact remains that these DLCs need to sell. I'm pretty sure the completion rate of the Veteran versions is very low. All in all I think these are sensible changes.
Yes, DLCs need to sell.
And IMO they are doing a fine job so far. The first audience they sell the DLC to are experienced players, and then gradually those DLC dungeons gain new audience when they get nerfed.
In my experience, the nerfs to DLC dungeons are usually good.
I remember a time when only the ultra l337 could finish vICP brcause the "meta" said Ibomez should be bursted to avoid mechanics. Since all people are sheeps, nobody ever bothered to actually learn the mechanics.
After the mechanics got nerfed, and Ibomez finally got damage reduction instead of a shield, people started to do the mechanics and the success rate of vICP completion spiked sky high.
Again, I am fine with minor nerfs, as long as they give experienced player new hard dungens to chew through, which they do.
Well, at least two per year
I would agree with you if this were really the case...but according to rumor, HotR dungeons will be EASIER that SotH dungeons are currently...not equivalent, easier. I am really hoping rumor is wrong and that they are tough as nails, this way I could get my hard 4-man content fix before they nerf these down.0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Twohothardware wrote: »The difficulty of some of the vet dungeons is not just an issue for casuals. Even experienced players who are well above average skill have to each day go looking for other experienced players to group with rather than use the dungeon queue because ones like Vet Mazzatun and Cradle of Shadows are too difficult to get through with the players you normally get queue'd with. You may luck out and get a good group through Dungeon finder from time to time but especially on console it is way too time consuming when all you want to do is complete the daily pledges as quickly as possible.
Pretty much. Let's have a moment of absolue honesty.
As far as ps4 na server goes. The casuals suck. They're terrible. They're truely *** the worst. Take all the horrible things you'vr heard, and knoe that they're true. Now give it cancer. I am in a few well performing raiding guilds and trust me when I say these *** turn a normal dungeon into a pug vet trial. I can guarantee that you will in almost every group experience dps that take 10-15 minutes to kill a boss on normal dungeons. God's honest truth I swear on my account.
Back to the topic:
It just looks like they're smoothing out the mechanics for people to have an easier time learning them, that's all. Best case scenario you will still get bow/bow wardens light attacking EVERYTHING. About the only difference I see is it'll help you teach friends the ropes so you can continue motif farming when your buddies quit because of the exessive pve nerfs.
Edited by Ep1kMalware on July 28, 2017 5:29AM0 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭Hilarious thread. Always funny to see what the "take casual video games a wee bit too seriously" crowd is complaining about.
1. MMOs (pve with mechanic fights), NO mmos, are really "skills" any more than learning LEVELS in ANY console game are "skillful." Because that's what you are doing, you aren't learning to play tennis, or speak a foreign language, play an instrument. THOSE are skills. You are trying to shoehorn learning what equates to arbitrary console game levels (yeah, it's ALL really getting past the next Ms. PacMan level regardless of how the grognards try to rationalize the time we spend frivolously on these DISTRACTIONS), NOT tactics, NOT strategy, NOT anything resembling actual teamwork, into some kind of "achievement." ROFL. It's supposed to be mindless fun, not something to hang one's "life accomplishment" hat on. OR try putting your score in clearing this or that MMO content on a CV, get back to us on the results.
2. There ARE -some- video games out there that contain tactical and strategic elements in them that more closely approximate general "skills." None I know of are MMOs and ESO definitely ISN'T one (some preWoW MMOs way back... maybe... not postWOW). No "immune boss mechanic staged" game is. Look for 1. AIM, not sticky targeting lulz, 2. PARKOUR elements with fluid movement in three dimensions, 3. Squad level combat, etc., NOT dodging circles on the ground or "when the blue ball bounces this way you have to turn the purple switch this way."
3. They damn well should nerf content after it's been out awhile. The people who take these games a wee bit too seriously are almost certainly NOT keeping the game in the black, it's those of us with well-paying JOBS and CCs who like to play dress up dolly in a casual way AFTER REAL LIFE, not as a substitute for it. A distraction, that's what it is supposed to be.
4. You should be grateful they waste resources making content for the hard-cores who make up a teeny weeny % of the paying player base. It's not the best business model, so take what you get.
.
.
.
If the content of ANY game you play has gotten too easy for you, maybe, just maybe, it's time to find a new game. I'm quite sure the 1-2% of the actual playing population that has such an unhealthy expectation of a console-level-oriented video game won't be missed. Maybe take up Guitar Hero. That's what normal people do, play a game for awhile and then... play another game.Edited by buttaface on July 29, 2017 7:54AM0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine?
Just a couple of things here :
- We players, no matter on what side of this "difficulty debate" we stand, do not get to decide what gets nerfed and what doesn't. ZOS does.
- I'm not asking for anything to get nerfed - but I'm happy when things do get nerfed. As long as I consider them too difficult for my level of fun, I do as you say : play normal dungeons, and I'm perfectly happy with it. BUT ZOS is unhappy with too few people playing any given content. It's their statistics, their marketing, their choice.
- My point is, that whether we ask for nerfs or not, whether we play normal dungeons or not, the result is the same : few people run difficult vet dungeons, and if ZOS considers it TOO FEW people, they'll get nerfed.
And also, on the subject "learning"... and all the "all you have to do is learn" arguments in this entire thread and other similar threads :
- It's perfectly legit to refuse to "learn". People are perfectly free to choose what they put "effort" into in their lives and it's perfectly OK to choose to NOT put effort into a video game. (Yes you're gonna say that normal mode is for those people, but that brings us back to my previous paragraph : if too few people run vet mode, vet mode will get nerfed no matter what).
- In my case, I refuse to learn NOW. I've learnt a lot back in 2014 and 2015. I've put a lot of effort and time into learning this game. Only to find out that I have to re-learn all the time for the sake of "balance changes". Now I strictly refuse to learn. Well, I still learn dungeon mechanics, but I don't improve my DPS and I choose my rotation according to fun and not efficiency. Learning is pointless because of having to re-learn every 3 to 6 months. I simply refuse that. I have other things in life to put effort into. ESO is for fun, not effort.
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SerDinadan✭✭This is actually not that surprising. I'd bet that one of the factors for nerfing the DLC dungeons is that ZOS is seeing low sales for them; casuals aren't likely to buy difficult content that they're not able to complete. I always thought it was a curious business decision for ZOS to make their DLC dungeons the most difficult ones.0
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Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SerDinadan wrote: »This is actually not that surprising. I'd bet that one of the factors for nerfing the DLC dungeons is that ZOS is seeing low sales for them; casuals aren't likely to buy difficult content that they're not able to complete. I always thought it was a curious business decision for ZOS to make their DLC dungeons the most difficult ones.
they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
and if they want to make casual spamming light attack ( it's already the case for a lot of them ) , they can nerf dungeons even more and make them so you don't even need to know what a stuff is .
if they want to lost all their HL players cause no challenge ,it's their choice !0 -
SerDinadan✭✭SerDinadan wrote: »This is actually not that surprising. I'd bet that one of the factors for nerfing the DLC dungeons is that ZOS is seeing low sales for them; casuals aren't likely to buy difficult content that they're not able to complete. I always thought it was a curious business decision for ZOS to make their DLC dungeons the most difficult ones.
they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
and if they want to make casual spamming light attack ( it's already the case for a lot of them ) , they can nerf dungeons even more and make them so you don't even need to know what a stuff is .
if they want to lost all their HL players cause no challenge ,it's their choice !
One need only take a look at Wildstar to see how well of a business decision it is to cater to the hardcore minority. Sorry, but catering to the hardcore minority just doesn't generate enough revenue compared with greater accessibility for the casual majority.Edited by SerDinadan on July 31, 2017 4:53PM3 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
There's no point for ZOS in developing nice dungeon mechanics for hardcore players, since all those players do is bypass mechanics.
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Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SerDinadan wrote: »SerDinadan wrote: »This is actually not that surprising. I'd bet that one of the factors for nerfing the DLC dungeons is that ZOS is seeing low sales for them; casuals aren't likely to buy difficult content that they're not able to complete. I always thought it was a curious business decision for ZOS to make their DLC dungeons the most difficult ones.
they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
and if they want to make casual spamming light attack ( it's already the case for a lot of them ) , they can nerf dungeons even more and make them so you don't even need to know what a stuff is .
if they want to lost all their HL players cause no challenge ,it's their choice !
One need only take a look at Wildstar to see how well of a business decision it is to cater to the hardcore minority. Sorry, but catering to the hardcore minority just doesn't generate enough revenue compared with greater accessibility for the casual majority.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
There's no point for ZOS in developing nice dungeon mechanics for hardcore players, since all those players do is bypass mechanics.
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder405/400x/53991405.jpg
It's how it's allways been. It's how it'll allways be. The people yelling about how hard it should be openly took steps to bypass mechanics they didn't like. Hypocracy and greed at it's core.0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »SerDinadan wrote: »SerDinadan wrote: »This is actually not that surprising. I'd bet that one of the factors for nerfing the DLC dungeons is that ZOS is seeing low sales for them; casuals aren't likely to buy difficult content that they're not able to complete. I always thought it was a curious business decision for ZOS to make their DLC dungeons the most difficult ones.
they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
and if they want to make casual spamming light attack ( it's already the case for a lot of them ) , they can nerf dungeons even more and make them so you don't even need to know what a stuff is .
if they want to lost all their HL players cause no challenge ,it's their choice !
One need only take a look at Wildstar to see how well of a business decision it is to cater to the hardcore minority. Sorry, but catering to the hardcore minority just doesn't generate enough revenue compared with greater accessibility for the casual majority.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
There's no point for ZOS in developing nice dungeon mechanics for hardcore players, since all those players do is bypass mechanics.
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder405/400x/53991405.jpg
It's how it's allways been. It's how it'll allways be. The people yelling about how hard it should be openly took steps to bypass mechanics they didn't like. Hypocracy and greed at it's core.
Talk about generalizing. I enjoy pugging these dungeons as they are. I like pugging them more than pre-made because it provides more of a challenge since in general a pug is not capable of out-DPSing the mechanics 95% of the time. Unless of course you are talking about the ridiculously miserable mobs in vRoM. I will gladly bypass those things every chance I get simply because there is no point in putting myself through misery from a mob that is only difficult by virtue of their tankiness. In vCoS the mobs are nicely balanced...in vRoM, they are just miserable. We all know though that dungeon mobs arent the reason people run dungeons, they are just background filler.
P.S. I did pug vRoM the other day with some sorc hard cast spamming crystal frags. If that is the new norm, then maybe these changes are actually needed for their target audience. I feel kinda sad that is their target audience though.Edited by josiahva on August 1, 2017 3:51PM0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »SerDinadan wrote: »SerDinadan wrote: »This is actually not that surprising. I'd bet that one of the factors for nerfing the DLC dungeons is that ZOS is seeing low sales for them; casuals aren't likely to buy difficult content that they're not able to complete. I always thought it was a curious business decision for ZOS to make their DLC dungeons the most difficult ones.
they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
and if they want to make casual spamming light attack ( it's already the case for a lot of them ) , they can nerf dungeons even more and make them so you don't even need to know what a stuff is .
if they want to lost all their HL players cause no challenge ,it's their choice !
One need only take a look at Wildstar to see how well of a business decision it is to cater to the hardcore minority. Sorry, but catering to the hardcore minority just doesn't generate enough revenue compared with greater accessibility for the casual majority.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »they can do what they want ,if the developpers like to create dungeons / interesting mechanics , and see casual run through them spamming light attack , it's their choice .
There's no point for ZOS in developing nice dungeon mechanics for hardcore players, since all those players do is bypass mechanics.
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder405/400x/53991405.jpg
It's how it's allways been. It's how it'll allways be. The people yelling about how hard it should be openly took steps to bypass mechanics they didn't like. Hypocracy and greed at it's core.
Talk about generalizing. I enjoy pugging these dungeons as they are. I like pugging them more than pre-made because it provides more of a challenge since in general a pug is not capable of out-DPSing the mechanics 95% of the time. Unless of course you are talking about the ridiculously miserable mobs in vRoM. I will gladly bypass those things every chance I get simply because there is no point in putting myself through misery from a mob that is only difficult by virtue of their tankiness. In vCoS the mobs are nicely balanced...in vRoM, they are just miserable. We all know though that dungeon mobs arent the reason people run dungeons, they are just background filler.
P.S. I did pug vRoM the other day with some sorc hard cast spamming crystal frags. If that is the new norm, then maybe these changes are actually needed for their target audience. I feel kinda sad that is their target audience though.
New norm? It allways was the norm.
And case in point, right here. When will you learn, that the primary way ZOS makes difficulty is tankiness, or DPS race mechanics?Edited by Doctordarkspawn on August 1, 2017 5:40PM0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?
I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...
Dungeons- Imperial City Prison
- Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.
- Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones.
- White-Gold Tower
- Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter.
- Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
- Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.
Those are big nerfs, really
No they arent big nerfs.... for the love of god.. I LOVE White gold tower, but not everyone was able to clear out the portals now due to morrowind nerfs to damage and sustain.....Molag Kena is still hard. they just made the pinion boss easier which I agree.
Kena is one of the easiest bosses in the game if you have a damage shield.
One of the reason why I really dislike the IC dungeons. As a stam players the final bosses are royal PITA to fight against. Show again that the designer mostly have mag classes in mind when they design dungeons ....
Run blade cloak. That's what it's there for.0 - Imperial City Prison
