ZoS WTH? Why are you nerfing the DLC dungeons?

Magdalina

Glass wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

They're nerfing them at the same time as introducing 2 new (hopefully) challenging dungeons.

Also, OP, I've tanked vRoM HM speedruns with 12k stamina templar with full mag regen jewelry and no sturdy ;P

Can I be like you? teach me your ways sempai.

I gave you an Awesome

Yay free awesomes!

Yeah you should make a blazeplar tank too obviously @Glass Then we should blazeplar duo vet RoM because reasons.

exeeter702

Magdalina wrote: »

They're nerfing them at the same time as introducing 2 new (hopefully) challenging dungeons. I find it sad but it was to be expected. They're trying to open old dlc dungeons up to more casual folks. I see what they're trying to do but imo the principle they're going on is wrong.

The things they nerfed were specific mechanics forcing you to follow them. They should stop encouraging blissful idiots who happily ignore all the instructions, get carried hardcore then claim it's other people's issue if their next group isn't good/lucky enough to carry what is basically worse than dead weight(for example Planar is heaps easier with 3 people who know the fight rather than 4 one of which refuses to acknowledge the need to close portals). We/they need to make people more aware of mechanics, not encourage carrying and ignoring them.

The nerfs could be worse though. I don't think they touched RoM last boss and specifically Stoneshapers. I sure hope Reach dungeons are challenging enough to pay for these nerfs though.

Also, OP, I've tanked vRoM HM speedruns with 12k stamina templar with full mag regen jewelry and no sturdy ;P

No actually, they confirmed on the last eso live that the 2 new dungeons will be slightly easier than the soth ones currently are on live. These new nerfs suggest they are bringing them in line with the 2 new ones.

Here i was hoping the new dlc dungeons would be stepping it up.... sigh..

Doctordarkspawn

zyk wrote: »

I love the irony. Player says:

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Get over it or leave. The way they've been doing difficulty isn't fun.

Player's sig:

To me, the measure of a man is whether or not he fights for his principles. It does not matter if you never had a chance to begin with. The deck could be stacked, the game rigged against you. You fight to the bitter end, because it is worth fighting for.

Yeah, I say to fight for principle.

Difference of opinion and it's worth to the game isn't principle. Difference of Opinion on how difficulty should be performed isn't principle. I dont see what the point of this post was. Plus, people were perfectly happy to tell other people to swallow the pill when they asked for the game to be easier. If your not willing to take the same medicine, dont speak.

Doctordarkspawn

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Dantaria

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

MLGProPlayer

Twohothardware wrote: »

Because the overwhelming majority of runs for both Normal and Vet Dungeons is random matchmade groups and the success rate for these particular dungeons is beyond abyssomal for those groups. When you can't manage to complete the dungeon with multiple different groups then players lose interest in playing.

Vet Trials is what should be the more challenging aspect for PvE Veteran players rather than Dungeons and if you need more than that then get gud and go play PvP.

There are only 5 trials...

There needs to be WAY more challenging content in a game than that to keep people engaged.

MLGProPlayer

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

They tend to nerf old dungeons closer to base-game difficulty level as new dungeons/content comes out (see: vWGT at launch vs vWGT now).

That's okay. If you are a serious player, you've had a year to play with everything from the last "dungeon update," now more casual players get access to it. TBH I think it's a solid philosophy.

Except new players don't get to exprience that.

Magdalina

exeeter702 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

They're nerfing them at the same time as introducing 2 new (hopefully) challenging dungeons. I find it sad but it was to be expected. They're trying to open old dlc dungeons up to more casual folks. I see what they're trying to do but imo the principle they're going on is wrong.

The things they nerfed were specific mechanics forcing you to follow them. They should stop encouraging blissful idiots who happily ignore all the instructions, get carried hardcore then claim it's other people's issue if their next group isn't good/lucky enough to carry what is basically worse than dead weight(for example Planar is heaps easier with 3 people who know the fight rather than 4 one of which refuses to acknowledge the need to close portals). We/they need to make people more aware of mechanics, not encourage carrying and ignoring them.

The nerfs could be worse though. I don't think they touched RoM last boss and specifically Stoneshapers. I sure hope Reach dungeons are challenging enough to pay for these nerfs though.

Also, OP, I've tanked vRoM HM speedruns with 12k stamina templar with full mag regen jewelry and no sturdy ;P

No actually, they confirmed on the last eso live that the 2 new dungeons will be slightly easier than the soth ones currently are on live. These new nerfs suggest they are bringing them in line with the 2 new ones.

Here i was hoping the new dlc dungeons would be stepping it up.... sigh..

That's a real shame tbh One less reason to play ESO if true. I already don't give a damn about non SotH dungeons (including IC) because they're too stupidly easy...

Urkraft

ZoS WTH? Why are you nerfing the DLC dungeons? Bookmark

while more and more older players sooner or later stop playing, new people maybe need something like positive experiences to go on paying membership fees and crown store stuff, like we did back in the past.

it's normal, that new stuff is hard and an achievement, and later gets enrfed, so everyone is able to achieve something sooner or later.

2 new (hopefully) challenging dungeons.

as far as i heard, they arent challenging. and why would they be. i mean come one, who buys a dlc, if he knows, he cant comepte with the content

Pastas

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?

I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...


Dungeons

• Imperial City Prison
  • Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.
  • Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones.
• White-Gold Tower
  • Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter. 
  • Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
  • Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.

If you don't see the nerfs here your English should be worst that mine

Doctordarkspawn

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

Feanor

The 2 new Horns of the Reach dungeons will give an achievement just for entering them. Sounds about right seeing some of the discussion here.

Magdalina

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

tommalmm

Everyone that claims these changes are uncalled for, doesn't probably ever PUG.

ICP wasn't such an issue, the adds are managable with one sane DPS around or crappy ones saving their ultis (just as in fire maw fight in vCOA2). As for the last boss, I've seen wipes mostly because of someone going down the pool too early without the other one following them (if another player that knows what to do is too far to do that), or just draining resources to the orbs. I don't think the changes will make this dungeon much easier.

As for WGT. I've seen quite good groups, with quite good dps and still wiping many times on inhibitor, even on normal. Not that long ago (I was on a healer, the other guy was on a tank) we wiped a few times there until it was me who got first portals, then the tank got them next time. Our DPSes simply refused to acknowledge their existence (we wrote essays on this matter, maybe it was a language barrier, I don't know, we didn't get any response). We had to play the ball with tank and ress the other guys. It's a l2p issue, you say? True. But at that time I had already WASTED like 15 minutes of an hour I had to play the game, so quitting and requeuing (and possibly getting similar group) was not an option. Now this kind of scenario is much less likely to happen. BTW. I remember, that not so long ago I had issues completing it myself, wiping there for two hours with friends, so yes, it is l2p...

Will these dungeons be much easier for good groups? Only slightly, I mean, the overfiend was not an issue at all, so this nerf doesn't really mean anything, while inhibitor gives only a slight advantage (say, if a heal and dps both get portals, it's more beneficial for the healer to close them, while tanks will have easier time if they don't fancy a bow), but that won't change much.

One other solution would be to make these dungeons opt in. Most players that queue specifically for them, know how to complete them. The problem is with people queuing for random and ending there.

I like PUGs, most of the time, at least when I can complete the dungeon, it's fun (yesterday I've got a team on a tank, that took nearly 11 minutes to kill vDC1 hm last boss (with me and healer doing over 70% of total damage to the boss). I just don't like WASTING my time (and not being able to complete a dungeon is a total waste of time).

Magdalina

tommalmm wrote: »

Everyone that claims these changes are uncalled for, doesn't probably ever PUG.

ICP wasn't such an issue, the adds are managable with one sane DPS around or crappy ones saving their ultis (just as in fire maw fight in vCOA2). As for the last boss, I've seen wipes mostly because of someone going down the pool too early without the other one following them (if another player that knows what to do is too far to do that), or just draining resources to the orbs. I don't think the changes will make this dungeon much easier.

As for WGT. I've seen quite good groups, with quite good dps and still wiping many times on inhibitor, even on normal. Not that long ago (I was on a healer, the other guy was on a tank) we wiped a few times there until it was me who got first portals, then the tank got them next time. Our DPSes simply refused to acknowledge their existence (we wrote essays on this matter, maybe it was a language barrier, I don't know, we didn't get any response). We had to play the ball with tank and ress the other guys. It's a l2p issue, you say? True. But at that time I had already WASTED like 15 minutes of an hour I had to play the game, so quitting and requeuing (and possibly getting similar group) was not an option. Now this kind of scenario is much less likely to happen. BTW. I remember, that not so long ago I had issues completing it myself, wiping there for two hours with friends, so yes, it is l2p...

Will these dungeons be much easier for good groups? Only slightly, I mean, the overfiend was not an issue at all, so this nerf doesn't really mean anything, while inhibitor gives only a slight advantage (say, if a heal and dps both get portals, it's more beneficial for the healer to close them, while tanks will have easier time if they don't fancy a bow), but that won't change much.

One other solution would be to make these dungeons opt in. Most players that queue specifically for them, know how to complete them. The problem is with people queuing for random and ending there.

I like PUGs, most of the time, at least when I can complete the dungeon, it's fun (yesterday I've got a team on a tank, that took nearly 11 minutes to kill vDC1 hm last boss (with me and healer doing over 70% of total damage to the boss). I just don't like WASTING my time (and not being able to complete a dungeon is a total waste of time).

I have pugged every single dlc dungeon. Furthermore, lately I've only been running WGT and ICP with pugs because they're way too easy and hence mind numbingly boring with a good group. I won't say I was able to complete dlc dungeons with pugs every time. I will say I was able to complete them every time the people were willing to listen to instructions and were not blatantly incompetent in their role(14k health with food, 5k dps, etc. And I really don't think ZOS should be catering to these people because this is l2p issue at its finest. Don't wanna l2p bad enough that getting some health enchants, food, Julianos/NMG crafted and some semblance of a rotation is too much? Go do normal). I have done them with ~200 and even ~100 cp people as well(admittedly 100 cp was WGT, not ROM). There are no tank, dps, heal or reaction checks there that require anything more than an average human can do with crafted gear, a semblance of rotation and some common sense.

I know exactly what you're talking about with WGT Planar boss but I feel this is the reason it needs BUFFED, not nerfed. Why? So there is no excuse for wasting time there. No carrying. Won't kill portals after being told about them? Kicked. Won't tank Kena without dying every 7 seconds despite being a 30k health tank? Kicked. The issue right now is people NEVER learn because they can just get carried so well through absolute majority of the content that when there is that tiny bit of content they can't get carried through they start whining it needs nerfs. And ZOS continues encouraging this behaviour.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm talking about vet dungeons here, I don't do normals.

Feanor

Magdalina wrote: »

tommalmm wrote: »

Everyone that claims these changes are uncalled for, doesn't probably ever PUG.

ICP wasn't such an issue, the adds are managable with one sane DPS around or crappy ones saving their ultis (just as in fire maw fight in vCOA2). As for the last boss, I've seen wipes mostly because of someone going down the pool too early without the other one following them (if another player that knows what to do is too far to do that), or just draining resources to the orbs. I don't think the changes will make this dungeon much easier.

As for WGT. I've seen quite good groups, with quite good dps and still wiping many times on inhibitor, even on normal. Not that long ago (I was on a healer, the other guy was on a tank) we wiped a few times there until it was me who got first portals, then the tank got them next time. Our DPSes simply refused to acknowledge their existence (we wrote essays on this matter, maybe it was a language barrier, I don't know, we didn't get any response). We had to play the ball with tank and ress the other guys. It's a l2p issue, you say? True. But at that time I had already WASTED like 15 minutes of an hour I had to play the game, so quitting and requeuing (and possibly getting similar group) was not an option. Now this kind of scenario is much less likely to happen. BTW. I remember, that not so long ago I had issues completing it myself, wiping there for two hours with friends, so yes, it is l2p...

Will these dungeons be much easier for good groups? Only slightly, I mean, the overfiend was not an issue at all, so this nerf doesn't really mean anything, while inhibitor gives only a slight advantage (say, if a heal and dps both get portals, it's more beneficial for the healer to close them, while tanks will have easier time if they don't fancy a bow), but that won't change much.

One other solution would be to make these dungeons opt in. Most players that queue specifically for them, know how to complete them. The problem is with people queuing for random and ending there.

I like PUGs, most of the time, at least when I can complete the dungeon, it's fun (yesterday I've got a team on a tank, that took nearly 11 minutes to kill vDC1 hm last boss (with me and healer doing over 70% of total damage to the boss). I just don't like WASTING my time (and not being able to complete a dungeon is a total waste of time).

I have pugged every single dlc dungeon. Furthermore, lately I've only been running WGT and ICP with pugs because they're way too easy and hence mind numbingly boring with a good group. I won't say I was able to complete dlc dungeons with pugs every time. I will say I was able to complete them every time the people were willing to listen to instructions and were not blatantly incompetent in their role(14k health with food, 5k dps, etc. And I really don't think ZOS should be catering to these people because this is l2p issue at its finest. Don't wanna l2p bad enough that getting some health enchants, food, Julianos/NMG crafted and some semblance of a rotation is too much? Go do normal). I have done them with ~200 and even ~100 cp people as well(admittedly 100 cp was WGT, not ROM). There are no tank, dps, heal or reaction checks there that require anything more than an average human can do with crafted gear, a semblance of rotation and some common sense.

I know exactly what you're talking about with WGT Planar boss but I feel this is the reason it needs BUFFED, not nerfed. Why? So there is no excuse for wasting time there. No carrying. Won't kill portals after being told about them? Kicked. Won't tank Kena without dying every 7 seconds despite being a 30k health tank? Kicked. The issue right now is people NEVER learn because they can just get carried so well through absolute majority of the content that when there is that tiny bit of content they can't get carried through they start whining it needs nerfs. And ZOS continues encouraging this behaviour.

Perfectly summed up. Have an awesome.

GreenhaloX

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

Magdalina

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

If these masses don't want to learn the dungeons(I have died and wiped my group maaaaaaaaaany times there at first, myself. I learnt to play though ), why don't they run normal versions? Same quest, same visuals, same everything, just easier.

tommalmm

Magdalina wrote: »

I know exactly what you're talking about with WGT Planar boss but I feel this is the reason it needs BUFFED, not nerfed. Why? So there is no excuse for wasting time there. No carrying. Won't kill portals after being told about them? Kicked. Won't tank Kena without dying every 7 seconds despite being a 30k health tank? Kicked. The issue right now is people NEVER learn because they can just get carried so well through absolute majority of the content that when there is that tiny bit of content they can't get carried through they start whining it needs nerfs. And ZOS continues encouraging this behaviour.

Good point. I actually do agree.

My problem, though, is that I'm more likely to quit than kick someone. Being kicked sucks. I've been kicked a few times, back then, when I've started playing the game and was double barred 2h, dizzling swing spamming, stamina nightblade khajiit in random dropped gear. I can't say how low my dps was back then, but it must've been terrible, as I recall having issues with some story line bosses :P. On the other hand, it made me read about game mechanics, builds, gear, rotations, etc. That made me a much better player. A two or so months later I was able to get a decent 30k dps (though it took a little bit to get used and stop dying to stupid stuff, like easily avoidable mechanics, develop some situational awareness to the threats present in the game).

josiahva

Turelus wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

they been out for awhile, it was bound to happen. too many complaints from PUGs and casuals?

Hell even competent players I know CBA to do it veteran on daily because it requires thinking an effort.

Toning them back a little isn't a bad thing, there is plenty of hard content still as well as two new dungeons this update.

Hard content? Sure, hard 4-man content...NOT. I prefer small man content to massive 12-man trials....but all the hard content goes to trials, so nerfing what little difficult 4-man content they have hurts those who enjoy smaller groups more than huge zergs.

Tasear wrote: »

vWGT rifts needed less health there's was latency issues causing this to be harder for some players. I saw a lot of players having trouble with them during free eso plus. Also it's was notoriously not good spot for healers or tanks because they don't have do to kill portal.

I pug tank this all the time...closing portals isnt difficult even for a tank...you have a bow on the back bar...charge a heavy attack while looking for next portal, followed up by poison injection...voila! Alternatively the tank can just hold aggro the entire time when not in coldfire mode. If ANY changes needed to be made to the fight...nerf heatstroke DoT because getting heatstroke AND portals as a tank is rarely survivable when you have to spend so many resources to keep heatstroke in check.

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

In my opinion, this is one of the another attempt of ZOS to bring the CEILING DOWN for casual players. For the experienced players, these dungeons anyway at present do no give any challenge. Experienced groups can do vWGT/ Mazzatun/ ICP in lest than 20 min as DPS simply overrides the mechanics in these places (except for a few instances) and the fights become way too easy.

Yes it is true that there is a large population of players out there for whom doing these dungeons in vet mode still presents a big challenge but that is part of their personal progression. And as they get proficient with mechanics and their DPS/ Group coordination gets better, soon these dungeons will become nothing but chore for them.

However on the point of changes as mentioned in the patch, they are not too much of a nerf but yes things get easier.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?

I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...


Dungeons

• Imperial City Prison
  • Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.- At present we anyway skip all mechanics including the harvester but for new players this makes their life much easier with less adds they deal with unless the tank is really good with chains and talons.
  • Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones. - It doesn't make any difference to the fight in my opinion as the challenges are placement of orbs, avoiding the floor mechanics an etc etc.
• White-Gold Tower
  • Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter. -Experienced players now completely ignore this phase and just burn the boss, but with this change there is a high possibility of 1 DD getting the visions along with either a healer or tank, so for uncoordinated groups this will make things easier for sure.
  • Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
  • Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.

So, for my personal game play these changes doesn't effect a bit apart from making these counters even more easier.

I am a tank that PUGs. I don't run pledges with experienced groups most times(I pug probably 85% of the time) because I enjoy the challenge of a pug, my completion rate in a pug group for ALL the DLC dungeons is north of 75%. This content is NOT too difficult for casual players if they are willing to listen and work together. These changes are reducing the difficulty of my favorite content in the game by a SIGNIFICANT degree. I am willing to bet the new dungeons are also going to be easy because of these nerfs, making it so the zerg-fests that trials are is the only difficult content left in the game.

josiahva

josiahva wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

they been out for awhile, it was bound to happen. too many complaints from PUGs and casuals?

Hell even competent players I know CBA to do it veteran on daily because it requires thinking an effort.

Toning them back a little isn't a bad thing, there is plenty of hard content still as well as two new dungeons this update.

Hard content? Sure, hard 4-man content...NOT. I prefer small man content to massive 12-man trials....but all the hard content goes to trials, so nerfing what little difficult 4-man content they have hurts those who enjoy smaller groups more than huge zergs.

Tasear wrote: »

vWGT rifts needed less health there's was latency issues causing this to be harder for some players. I saw a lot of players having trouble with them during free eso plus. Also it's was notoriously not good spot for healers or tanks because they don't have do to kill portal.

I pug tank this all the time...closing portals isnt difficult even for a tank...you have a bow on the back bar...charge a heavy attack while looking for next portal, followed up by poison injection...voila! Alternatively the tank can just hold aggro the entire time when not in coldfire mode. If ANY changes needed to be made to the fight...nerf heatstroke DoT because getting heatstroke AND portals as a tank is rarely survivable when you have to spend so many resources to keep heatstroke in check.

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

In my opinion, this is one of the another attempt of ZOS to bring the CEILING DOWN for casual players. For the experienced players, these dungeons anyway at present do no give any challenge. Experienced groups can do vWGT/ Mazzatun/ ICP in lest than 20 min as DPS simply overrides the mechanics in these places (except for a few instances) and the fights become way too easy.

Yes it is true that there is a large population of players out there for whom doing these dungeons in vet mode still presents a big challenge but that is part of their personal progression. And as they get proficient with mechanics and their DPS/ Group coordination gets better, soon these dungeons will become nothing but chore for them.

However on the point of changes as mentioned in the patch, they are not too much of a nerf but yes things get easier.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?

I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...


Dungeons

• Imperial City Prison
  • Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.- At present we anyway skip all mechanics including the harvester but for new players this makes their life much easier with less adds they deal with unless the tank is really good with chains and talons.
  • Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones. - It doesn't make any difference to the fight in my opinion as the challenges are placement of orbs, avoiding the floor mechanics an etc etc.
• White-Gold Tower
  • Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter. -Experienced players now completely ignore this phase and just burn the boss, but with this change there is a high possibility of 1 DD getting the visions along with either a healer or tank, so for uncoordinated groups this will make things easier for sure.
  • Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
  • Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.

So, for my personal game play these changes doesn't effect a bit apart from making these counters even more easier.

I am a tank that PUGs. I don't run pledges with experienced groups most times(I pug probably 85% of the time) because I enjoy the challenge of a pug, my completion rate in a pug group for ALL the DLC dungeons is north of 75%. This content is NOT too difficult for casual players if they are willing to listen and work together. These changes are reducing the difficulty of my favorite content in the game by a SIGNIFICANT degree. I am willing to bet the new dungeons are also going to be easy because of these nerfs, making it so the zerg-fests that trials are is the only difficult content left in the game.

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

I am not a "super-gamer" by any means. Just as an example...we had a cp80 DPS yesterday for vWGT(healer was cap or close to it, other DPS was 200ish)....we were able to complete the dungeon just fine. If people are having trouble with these dungeons, its because they refuse to listen and do their jobs for the particular fight...there is no elite vs. casual here...these dungeons are easily completed by ANYONE as long as they pay attention to mechanics and perform their role.

Merlin13KAGL

For those arguing that bugs and lag are the reasoning behind this, you do understand that this nerf fixes neither of this issues?

They already have three difficulty modes: normal, Vet, Vet HM

Every single four man dungeon kicked someone's ass at one time.

Completion is not the same as progression. Continually dialing back the dungeons, effectively allowing teams to circumvent the mechanics, is no better than high DPS being allowed to circumvent the mechanics.

It will get people to the end product, but it will not improve the players in the process.

The step after that is frustration by not being able to complete HM, or not being able to complete the next series of dungeons/content.

There is already too much of a gap between norm, to vet, to vet HM. Nerfing the dungeons don't correct this.

They need to implement a way (other than veteran dungeon crawlers) to help people learn what to do better, to get past the mechanics the intended way, not simply by making it easier to allow people to pass.

josiahva

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

For those arguing that bugs and lag are the reasoning behind this, you do understand that this nerf fixes neither of this issues?

They already have three difficulty modes: normal, Vet, Vet HM

Every single four man dungeon kicked someone's ass at one time.

Completion is not the same as progression. Continually dialing back the dungeons, effectively allowing teams to circumvent the mechanics, is no better than high DPS being allowed to circumvent the mechanics.

It will get people to the end product, but it will not improve the players in the process.

The step after that is frustration by not being able to complete HM, or not being able to complete the next series of dungeons/content.

There is already too much of a gap between norm, to vet, to vet HM. Nerfing the dungeons don't correct this.

They need to implement a way (other than veteran dungeon crawlers) to help people learn what to do better, to get past the mechanics the intended way, not simply by making it easier to allow people to pass.

^^exactly this.
ZoS: People are able to sustain way to easy, makes it easy to DPS past mechanics...this is a bad thing, nerf sustain(and by association DPS) problem solved.
ZoS: People are having too much trouble completing content that requires mechanics....lets nerf the dungeon so mechanics dont matter! Lets completely ignore that this goes directly counter to what we did last patch!

The fact is there are a TON of easy dungeons in this game for those who dont like hard dungeons. You want an easy vet dungeon? Go play vet Elden Hollow I and stay out of vRoM. vCoS. vICP, and vWG. It is EXTREMELY disappointing to hear that ZoS plans to make Horns of The Reach easier than those.

Here is a compromise: If you feel you must nerf these dungeons, fine...but allow the group finder to have an option for how many people you want in a group and what roles are allowed for the group you are looking for. So vWGT gets nerfed...fine, then I should have the option of searching for a group within group finder that is limited to 3 people instead of 4...or 2. Let those who pug artificially increase the difficulty to compensate for ZoS nerfs. I enjoy 2-manning vCoS and I am sure others do as well but you cant pug a 2-man group...not many people would take the option, but it should be there for those who enjoy a challenge, I would like to be able to search for a 2 man pug with the role restrictions of tank and DPS only. Maybe increase the rewards to promote this type of increased challenge(3 or 4 keys for hard mode, gold rewards like trials have, etc)

Doctordarkspawn

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

worsttankever

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?

I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...


Dungeons

• Imperial City Prison
  • Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.
  • Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones.
• White-Gold Tower
  • Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter. 
  • Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
  • Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.

I agree. Pugging White Gold Tower and not having that one party member destroy the rifts. So infuriating !! Really glad they are updating this. Was a super lame mechanic.

supaskrub

Feanor wrote: »

The 2 new Horns of the Reach dungeons will give an achievement just for entering them. Sounds about right seeing some of the discussion here.

Ermmmmm.. thats no different to SoTH, spawn in and get an achievement, so that HotR achievement already has a precedent.

josiahva

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

Fischblut

I always pug and don't have permanent reliable group, so... Thank you very much, people who decided to make some of needed changes to those dungeons I will not forget awful update 14 and all the fun I already lost, but after next changes I will have a bit better chance to finally do no-death runs in 4 old dlc dungeons for Hoarvor pet and Hist skins. And if it's true that Horns of Reach dungeons will be easier than Hist ones, this is great too.

Also, achievement for simply entering dungeon is not different and not worse than same achievements for entering Wrothgar, Gold Coast and Hews Bane - for each of those we got some nice cosmetic reward. Horns of Reach will only offer emote though, this is actually worse than any previous reward 1500 crowns for simply two dungeons... At least we can get a new house which - probably - combined with not too hard difficulty can make this dlc worth purchasing.

Rex-Umbra

Any one here ever spent 7 hours with a pug working though a DLC vet Dungeon just to get stuck on last boss and forced to quit? It sucks.

josiahva

Fischblut wrote: »

I always pug and don't have permanent reliable group, so... Thank you very much, people who decided to make some of needed changes to those dungeons I will not forget awful update 14 and all the fun I already lost, but after next changes I will have a bit better chance to finally do no-death runs in 4 old dlc dungeons for Hoarvor pet and Hist skins. And if it's true that Horns of Reach dungeons will be easier than Hist ones, this is great too.

Also, achievement for simply entering dungeon is not different and not worse than same achievements for entering Wrothgar, Gold Coast and Hews Bane - for each of those we got some nice cosmetic reward. Horns of Reach will only offer emote though, this is actually worse than any previous reward 1500 crowns for simply two dungeons... At least we can get a new house which - probably - combined with not too hard difficulty can make this dlc worth purchasing.

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Any one here ever spent 7 hours with a pug working though a DLC vet Dungeon just to get stuck on last boss and forced to quit? It sucks.

I pug these dungeons ALL THE TIME. Its true I dont always finish them with a pug...but I do over 75% of the time. These dungeons really arent difficult, they just take teamwork....some of the few dungeons that do. This is why these nerfs upset me so much, they devalue the teamwork needed to complete these dungeons, they have a few very basic requirements...but its mainly teamwork.