ZoS WTH? Why are you nerfing the DLC dungeons?

Doctordarkspawn

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.

If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.

You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.

PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.

ShimmerDoll

I like it being easier. I don't have time to get the best items to instill false skill. I used to have time in other mmos and put 1000s of hours in but I honestly don't recall those moments I had the best items and beat everything as memorable moments. I can do all the perfect skill rotations in ESO now but I can't survive doing them like friends I have who don't sleep and have all this incredible gear, where they are pressing everything casually and talking on their phone at the same time. If anything those people have it easier than people like me who don't have a lot of time to play because RL is demanding. I can press all the same keys they do I just don't have to stuff they do and never will and shouldn't be punished for it by not being able to access content or some kids kicking me from a group and call me names because I have to work while they don't.

Magdalina

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

Kneighbors

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

ValkynSketha

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

You don't need to spend hours to understand mechanic/boss moves etc, only brainless peoble have this issue, also you who have a life you can waste 20min of your life watching a youtube video or read a guide to get yourself ready, even after all the nerfs brainless peoble will still bla bla bla.

Magdalina

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

Obviously every single person who's better than you at this game has no life. And everyone who is worse is a potato. *nod* That's just how it works, isn't it?
Also, having spent time learning the dungeon is why instead of (just ) showing off I try to share my knowledge so rather than spending hours upon hours learning dungeons people can use some advices and get them down easier. Is that viewed as a bad thing these days?

And Idc about your achievements. I care about my fun(in this context) and this game's integrity which is in very sorry state due to abhorrent gap between good and bad players; the gap that only keeps growing because even when more experienced players agree to teach a lot of...less experienced people absolutely refuse to learn. These nerfs are one more step in the wrong direction, making the gap even wider.

Spearblade

Why do people care? Most of the DLC dungeon loot isn't worth the time going in there- it's just 2 extra gold keys (who gives a &^*#)

DaveMoeDee

I wonder how many people bought the first 2 dungeons, found them too hart, and will never buy a dungeon pack again. I never even bought the first 2 dungeons and don't see myself ever buying dungeon DLC.

MLGProPlayer

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

You have normal version. Vet should be for players who want a challenge.

MLGProPlayer

ShimmerDoll wrote: »

I like it being easier. I don't have time to get the best items to instill false skill. I used to have time in other mmos and put 1000s of hours in but I honestly don't recall those moments I had the best items and beat everything as memorable moments. I can do all the perfect skill rotations in ESO now but I can't survive doing them like friends I have who don't sleep and have all this incredible gear, where they are pressing everything casually and talking on their phone at the same time. If anything those people have it easier than people like me who don't have a lot of time to play because RL is demanding. I can press all the same keys they do I just don't have to stuff they do and never will and shouldn't be punished for it by not being able to access content or some kids kicking me from a group and call me names because I have to work while they don't.

You can beat DLC dungeons with crafted gear. No need for BiS.

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

You have normal version. Vet should be for players who want a challenge.

@MLGProPlayer

See, this is an arguement I dont get. Because this is the only MMO I've ever seen with a difficulty system this binary.

I mean look at WoW, it has five if I remember correctly. Why not do the same here? It only adds options, including options for, as you say, the people who want a challenge.

Then again, no player who's wanted to keep as many people out of vet has possible has ever liked that idea. Likely because their like the OP, and want to feel good about themselves by doing stuff nobody else can over actually giving options.

Doctordarkspawn

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

@Magdalina Got it right this time. I''m sorry, there's like five people with names like that and quite frankly, being lectured for bringing up a bug does not make me inclined to lisen to you. And it's for that lecture, for bringing up a bug, I know your more interested in talking -at- me, hence the sheer size of your posts. You want to educate the heathens, or eradicate the heathens. I'll continue to treat you like it.

I was gonna write up a huge response but this guy did it in less than ten sentances. Bravo.

Go play dark souls. That's an entire game with hours upon hours worth of content for your difficulty sensibilities. Otherwise you will continue to repurpose and monopolize all content and development time even after you have enough. It's greed. Nothing more. It's so terrible, because it never ends. I've seen it. It never does.

Magdalina

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

@Magdalina Got it right this time. I''m sorry, there's like five people with names like that and quite frankly, being lectured for bringing up a bug does not make me inclined to lisen to you. And it's for that lecture, for bringing up a bug, I know your more interested in talking -at- me, hence the sheer size of your posts. You want to educate the heathens, or eradicate the heathens. I'll continue to treat you like it.

I was gonna write up a huge response but this guy did it in less than ten sentances. Bravo.

Go play dark souls. That's an entire game with hours upon hours worth of content for your difficulty sensibilities. Otherwise you will continue to repurpose and monopolize all content and development time even after you have enough. It's greed. Nothing more. It's so terrible, because it never ends. I've seen it. It never does.

...I am greedy for wanting to have 2 dungeons out of 28(56 if you count normal modes as separate dungeons) to be the way I and my friends like them?o.O ...okay I guess. Not sure there's anything else to say here.

Juhasow

Would be nice if we would have modes similar to SWTOR : story , hard and knightmare. Eac had it's own difficulty and additional mechanics on each boss.

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

You have normal version. Vet should be for players who want a challenge.

@MLGProPlayer

See, this is an arguement I dont get. Because this is the only MMO I've ever seen with a difficulty system this binary.

I mean look at WoW, it has five if I remember correctly. Why not do the same here? It only adds options, including options for, as you say, the people who want a challenge.

Then again, no player who's wanted to keep as many people out of vet has possible has ever liked that idea. Likely because their like the OP, and want to feel good about themselves by doing stuff nobody else can over actually giving options.

Vet dungeons are extremely easy. Anyone who wants to can complete them. You can go in with any gear and any rotation.

Literally all you need to do is run it a few times so you see the boss mechanics. And if you're too lazy for that, then just watch a Youtube video or read a guide. There is nothing that can surprise you after that. The fights are all scripted. This isn't Dark Souls. You don't need to block and parry on a dime. ESO is a very forgiving game, so once you learn the mechanics (which takes no more than an hour or two), it becomes a cakewalk.

And that was before the nerfs. This isn't something only "elites" can complete.

Integral1900

The simple truth is that ZOS will have vast quantities of metrics generated from their side of the game, those will tell them how large a percentage of players clears that content, as long as that remains as low as it does currently they will keep adjusting difficulty downwards until the number of successful clears as a percentage of total attempts goes up.

This game is an mmo so while they will have things like VMoL for the the hardcore crazy brigade it is not, will not and should not be their focus. The vast bulk of players are casuals like me, they will cater to us because we pay the largest slice of the bills, it realy is that simple

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

@Magdalina Got it right this time. I''m sorry, there's like five people with names like that and quite frankly, being lectured for bringing up a bug does not make me inclined to lisen to you. And it's for that lecture, for bringing up a bug, I know your more interested in talking -at- me, hence the sheer size of your posts. You want to educate the heathens, or eradicate the heathens. I'll continue to treat you like it.

I was gonna write up a huge response but this guy did it in less than ten sentances. Bravo.

Go play dark souls. That's an entire game with hours upon hours worth of content for your difficulty sensibilities. Otherwise you will continue to repurpose and monopolize all content and development time even after you have enough. It's greed. Nothing more. It's so terrible, because it never ends. I've seen it. It never does.

This entire game is a joke. Everything in overland dies in one hit. All the base game dungeons can be soloed on vet how easy they are. DLC dungeons were literally the only challenging 4-man content but we're greedy for wanting it to stay that way?

You want ALL the content in the game to be easy. We just want a few challenging dungeons. And we're the "greedy" ones?

MLGProPlayer

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

You literally need to watch a single Youtube video or read a guide to learn the boss mechanics in a dungeon. If you don't want to look at guides, then just run the dungeon 2 or 3 times.

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

You have normal version. Vet should be for players who want a challenge.

@MLGProPlayer

See, this is an arguement I dont get. Because this is the only MMO I've ever seen with a difficulty system this binary.

I mean look at WoW, it has five if I remember correctly. Why not do the same here? It only adds options, including options for, as you say, the people who want a challenge.

Then again, no player who's wanted to keep as many people out of vet has possible has ever liked that idea. Likely because their like the OP, and want to feel good about themselves by doing stuff nobody else can over actually giving options.

Vet dungeons are extremely easy. Anyone who wants to can complete them. You can go in with any gear and any rotation.

Literally all you need to do is run it a few times so you see the boss mechanics. And if you're too lazy for that, then just watch a Youtube video or read a guide. There is nothing that can surprise you after that. The fights are all scripted. This isn't Dark Souls. You don't need to block and parry on a dime. ESO is a very forgiving game, so once you learn the mechanics (which takes no more than an hour or two), it becomes a cakewalk.

And that was before the nerfs. This isn't something only "elites" can complete.

So basicly, it's easy in your opinion so it needs be harder. Because you wanna feel special.

Yet more difficulty lobbying from a position of greed. I rest my case. It is the primary and soul motivator for this type of talk.

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

@Magdalina Got it right this time. I''m sorry, there's like five people with names like that and quite frankly, being lectured for bringing up a bug does not make me inclined to lisen to you. And it's for that lecture, for bringing up a bug, I know your more interested in talking -at- me, hence the sheer size of your posts. You want to educate the heathens, or eradicate the heathens. I'll continue to treat you like it.

I was gonna write up a huge response but this guy did it in less than ten sentances. Bravo.

Go play dark souls. That's an entire game with hours upon hours worth of content for your difficulty sensibilities. Otherwise you will continue to repurpose and monopolize all content and development time even after you have enough. It's greed. Nothing more. It's so terrible, because it never ends. I've seen it. It never does.

This entire game is a joke. Everything in overland dies in one hit. All the base game dungeons can be soloed on vet how easy they are. DLC dungeons were literally the only challenging 4-man content but we're greedy for wanting it to stay that way?

You want ALL the content in the game to be easy. We just want a few challenging dungeons. And we're the "greedy" ones?

And yet more talking at me, and not lisening.

I want for everyone to get what they want. I want for those who want difficulty to no longer conflict with the people that dont. I want for the game to be accessable, and my repeated proposal for four difficulty settings, tweaked to give players the exact experience they want, based on individual want, is how I propose to do that. A difficulty for those who want something a bit more challenging than normal, but a bit less than what vet is now. Players who think, like you, that vet is too easy.

I've never wanted the game to be easy for everyone. I'm just tired of suffering for your fun. Tired of having the only choices being full blast or 'kiddie pool'. But I can allready tell you'd -hate- this idea, and are thus selfish, wanting difficulty for the reason of being special. For being one of the elite few able to complete it. It does not matter, that you'd be geting that anyway. Giving anyone any ground is unacceptable, isn't it?

Edit: Dying in one hit? Your either trolling or not worth lisening to after hyperbole like that.

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

Actually you're the one who doesn't seem interested in actual conversation - given you couldn't even spell my name corectly (this is not nitpicking but it makes tagging me useless. In fact you might have tagged some totally random person by name "Magdala" instead)

I also wasn't actually bragging...I could've told you about my speedran no death hms now that you brought that up, but instead I tried to share the knowledge of mechanics with you so maybe you'd realize the dungeons are not so bad and have an easier time next time you run them. But you don't seem interested in that either. Indeed, why use the door someone else pointed you at when you can keep beating your head against the wall while complaining the wall is too hard, right?

This is the attitude I don't understand. Does everyone have to like ROM/COS vet (hm) difficulty(which is nowhere near as bad as you think if you follow mechanics, but it can be challenging even for good groups still)? No. But this is literally TWO dungeons in WHOLE GAME. You can faceroll all the open world, you can rp your way through all the normal dungeons(including dlc ones) and even most vet ones. Heck even IC dungeons are a complete joke to any half decent team these days. Why was/is it so bad for the few of us who do like this sort of content to have just TWO dungeons that cater to us while those not enjoying it can enjoy the other TWENTY FOUR(or twenty six, if you include IC ones) dungeons on both modes just fine? Furthermore, you can also do SotH dungeons on normal mode, that way you get to experience the story, explore the place, get the sets if you need them, you'll even get the pledge key and a chance for motifs that drop there! I just don't understand why it's so godmode awful if just 1% of the game's content (4 man content in this case, not talking Trials here) doesn't cater to your preferences while there're other people that do enjoy it>.<

Also, again, there're very few mechanics happening at the same time. Well on top of my head I can think of maybe 2 - if you count ads spawn as a mechanic. The reason you're getting mechanics happening all at the same time is you're not doing them properly. ...but not like you're interested in that anyway

@Doctordarkspawn

You just burned hours on hours to learn every move of every mob in these dungeons. Don't feel special, anyone can do it if he is lifeless enough. You learned every bug and every boss move and now you feel pain when these dungeons will get nerfed and will make it less time consuming to get same achievements.

@Magdalina Got it right this time. I''m sorry, there's like five people with names like that and quite frankly, being lectured for bringing up a bug does not make me inclined to lisen to you. And it's for that lecture, for bringing up a bug, I know your more interested in talking -at- me, hence the sheer size of your posts. You want to educate the heathens, or eradicate the heathens. I'll continue to treat you like it.

I was gonna write up a huge response but this guy did it in less than ten sentances. Bravo.

Go play dark souls. That's an entire game with hours upon hours worth of content for your difficulty sensibilities. Otherwise you will continue to repurpose and monopolize all content and development time even after you have enough. It's greed. Nothing more. It's so terrible, because it never ends. I've seen it. It never does.

This entire game is a joke. Everything in overland dies in one hit. All the base game dungeons can be soloed on vet how easy they are. DLC dungeons were literally the only challenging 4-man content but we're greedy for wanting it to stay that way?

You want ALL the content in the game to be easy. We just want a few challenging dungeons. And we're the "greedy" ones?

And yet more talking at me, and not lisening.

I want for everyone to get what they want. I want for those who want difficulty to no longer conflict with the people that dont. I want for the game to be accessable, and my repeated proposal for four difficulty settings, tweaked to give players the exact experience they want, based on individual want, is how I propose to do that. A difficulty for those who want something a bit more challenging than normal, but a bit less than what vet is now. Players who think, like you, that vet is too easy.

I've never wanted the game to be easy for everyone. I'm just tired of suffering for your fun. Tired of having the only choices being full blast or 'kiddie pool'. But I can allready tell you'd -hate- this idea, and are thus selfish, wanting difficulty for the reason of being special. For being one of the elite few able to complete it. It does not matter, that you'd be geting that anyway. Giving anyone any ground is unacceptable, isn't it?

Edit: Dying in one hit? Your either trolling or not worth lisening to after hyperbole like that.

You can absolutely one-shot overland enemies. That isn't a hyperbole. That's how insanely easy this game is. If you're running in absolutely junk gear, it might take a few extra hits, but there is never any risk of dying in overland content (damage output from enemies is non-existent).

I don't flaunt titles or achievements or skins. I couldn't care less about any of that. I just want to have fun, and that means getting to play challenging content.

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

You have normal version. Vet should be for players who want a challenge.

@MLGProPlayer

See, this is an arguement I dont get. Because this is the only MMO I've ever seen with a difficulty system this binary.

I mean look at WoW, it has five if I remember correctly. Why not do the same here? It only adds options, including options for, as you say, the people who want a challenge.

Then again, no player who's wanted to keep as many people out of vet has possible has ever liked that idea. Likely because their like the OP, and want to feel good about themselves by doing stuff nobody else can over actually giving options.

Vet dungeons are extremely easy. Anyone who wants to can complete them. You can go in with any gear and any rotation.

Literally all you need to do is run it a few times so you see the boss mechanics. And if you're too lazy for that, then just watch a Youtube video or read a guide. There is nothing that can surprise you after that. The fights are all scripted. This isn't Dark Souls. You don't need to block and parry on a dime. ESO is a very forgiving game, so once you learn the mechanics (which takes no more than an hour or two), it becomes a cakewalk.

And that was before the nerfs. This isn't something only "elites" can complete.

So basicly, it's easy in your opinion so it needs be harder. Because you wanna feel special.

Yet more difficulty lobbying from a position of greed. I rest my case. It is the primary and soul motivator for this type of talk.

They are objectively easy. I am not a "skilled" gamer. Beating dungeons in this game is a matter of effort. You either put the effort in to learn the mechanics or you don't (this game doesn't rely on twitch reflexes or quick thinking; it's very forgiving). If you don't think learning mechanics to overcome a challenge is fun, then so be it. But don't take other people's fun away.

In fact, I'd bet you a million in-game gold that you can complete the DLC dungeons on live right now if you took a few hours to learn the mechanics. You simply choose not to. That is no one's problem but your own.

Feanor

@Doctordarkspawn

Greed is when players demand items or achievements handed to them that they're not capable of. What would happen if a 3rd, 4th or 5th difficulty would be introduced, possibly with better loot as the difficulty goes up? Right, people would still ask for nerfs, because then they wouldn't be able to get the loot or the achievements of the harder modes. It would be exactly the same. I guess there are just a lot of people out there who love participation trophies.

As for the new achievement for entering the dungeons, yes, that has been in previous dungeons too. My point was that this is the exact thing that's been argued here for by the people who advocate further nerfs. Stuff to feel awesome about without actually having done anything.

Doctordarkspawn

Feanor wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

Greed is when players demand items or achievements handed to them that they're not capable of. What would happen if a 3rd, 4th or 5th difficulty would be introduced, possibly with better loot as the difficulty goes up? Right, people would still ask for nerfs, because then they wouldn't be able to get the loot or the achievements of the harder modes. It would be exactly the same. I guess there are just a lot of people out there who love participation trophies.

As for the new achievement for entering the dungeons, yes, that has been in previous dungeons too. My point was that this is the exact thing that's been argued here for by the people who advocate further nerfs. Stuff to feel awesome about without actually having done anything.

The definition of selfish:

(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

Refusing any and all changes to the game based on the feeling of empowerment being able to do something 1% of the playerbase can, is selfish by nature, given it is concerned with you alone.

As for exactly the same, would it? No. No it wouldn't. If you gave people a choice with more depth than 'kiddie pool or hardest setting', you'd see more satisfied people. The entire reason people raise hell about it now, is because there is no option other than those two options. The entire problem stems from the cliff and binary nature of the difficulty system.

The entire problem is the fact that you dont give people any middleground. No way to -clime to- that difficulty. No way to practice by incriments. And no ground for those who wanna play something slightly off meta, or someone who wants extra challenge. Not only would you have less people attempting to screw with other peoples settings, you'd have more people climing to the top, expidited by the actual difficulty curve instead of a sheer cliff.

And just because there's, god forbid, the participation trophy people (Who I dont mind, but I can see why others do) does not give you the right to be entitled in exactly the same way.

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

So I read the patch notes for the upcoming horns of the reach DLC, and while I have no opinion on most of it...this is concerning. ZoS is nerfing vWGT(again), vICP(again), vCoS, AND vRoM. Why? What did we do for you to make some of the ONLY fun and challenging 4-man content in the game easier? Don't we have enough faceroll easy dungeons? I barely even play non-DLC dungeons anymore because they are so pathetically easy...

I guess that's why those DLC dungeons are being nerfed.. is because not everybody are super gamers. Sure, it is quite easy for you super gamer type guys, but a lot of people/players still have trouble with those dungeons. Appease the masses, not the 1 percenter, such as yourself, seemingly.

You have normal version. Vet should be for players who want a challenge.

@MLGProPlayer

See, this is an arguement I dont get. Because this is the only MMO I've ever seen with a difficulty system this binary.

I mean look at WoW, it has five if I remember correctly. Why not do the same here? It only adds options, including options for, as you say, the people who want a challenge.

Then again, no player who's wanted to keep as many people out of vet has possible has ever liked that idea. Likely because their like the OP, and want to feel good about themselves by doing stuff nobody else can over actually giving options.

Vet dungeons are extremely easy. Anyone who wants to can complete them. You can go in with any gear and any rotation.

Literally all you need to do is run it a few times so you see the boss mechanics. And if you're too lazy for that, then just watch a Youtube video or read a guide. There is nothing that can surprise you after that. The fights are all scripted. This isn't Dark Souls. You don't need to block and parry on a dime. ESO is a very forgiving game, so once you learn the mechanics (which takes no more than an hour or two), it becomes a cakewalk.

And that was before the nerfs. This isn't something only "elites" can complete.

So basicly, it's easy in your opinion so it needs be harder. Because you wanna feel special.

Yet more difficulty lobbying from a position of greed. I rest my case. It is the primary and soul motivator for this type of talk.

They are objectively easy. I am not a "skilled" gamer. Beating dungeons in this game is a matter of effort. You either put the effort in to learn the mechanics or you don't (this game doesn't rely on twitch reflexes or quick thinking; it's very forgiving). If you don't think learning mechanics to overcome a challenge is fun, then so be it. But don't take other people's fun away.

In fact, I'd bet you a million in-game gold that you can complete the DLC dungeons on live right now if you took a few hours to learn the mechanics. You simply choose not to. That is no one's problem but your own.

It's not objective, unless you use a postulate beforehand. A basis on which to determin things, and that basis needs context.

For instance, if you wear no gear and oneshot enemies, based on the context, yes the game is too easy. If you wear top tier gear and do the same, less so. You wanna prove it's too easy? One shot an enemy without gear. Then we'll talk. Or even with crafted gear. And even then, we'd have to measure the crafted gear versus the time and energy it'd take to make, et cetera.

The point I'm trying to drill in here is that your wrong, and until you can definitively prove that you can one-shot an enemy with minimal gear, it's not objective, and your spewing crap.

No twitch reflexes? Yeeeeah, because Velidreth (I get the name wrong frequently, it's not very memorable) does not need twitch reflexes at all, with a move directly after a block-required attack that you need to dodge due to the armor debuff, multiple close range healing debuffs and an entire mechanic based on quick timed dodgerolling. (And that's not even counting the orbs.) Yeeeeeeeeah, that boss dont need aaaany twitch reflex.

As you can tell, or cant if your not very observant, and given how you've been talking, your not, I have beat these dungeons. I still rail against them, and the difficulty system. Try again.

@MLGProPlayer Stop, just stop. You spew hyperbole and easily disproveable statements. You clearly dont know what your talking about and are unfit to be consulted on these matters. Good day.

Feanor

Yes, by all means, introduce a 3rd difficulty. None of the players you deem so selfish would reject that. But we all know what happens in reality. ZOS doesn't add another difficulty. They simply nerf stuff if people QQ long enough. Hence the reaction of many players who enjoy a bit harder content - we don't want it to be watered down like 99% of the game already is.

PurpleScroll

I for one am happy to see these nerfs. As an older, casual player, I don't enjoy veteran dungeons or even want to attempt trials. I don't use monster sets, I like to make my characters look great without using the overused costumes. Nerfing the DLC dungeons means I can hit 'random normal' and not have people fleeing the group because it's one of these dungeons, or we get to the very end after an hour of doing the dungeon, and giving up because we just can't finish it. It just isn't fun and it puts players like myself, off ever wanting to try these dungeons again.

Doctordarkspawn

Feanor wrote: »

Yes, by all means, introduce a 3rd difficulty. None of the players you deem so selfish would reject that. But we all know what happens in reality. ZOS doesn't add another difficulty. They simply nerf stuff if people QQ long enough. Hence the reaction of many players who enjoy a bit harder content - we don't want it to be watered down like 99% of the game already is.

If it was popular, it wouldn't be watered down.

Simple truth. I'd like for a difficulty that wouldn't be watered down and was freely advertised as what it is, so kills two birds with one stone.

Yes, I deem you selfish, because you are. You want to be special. But I also recognize that a third, or fourth difficulty tier would fullfill a necessary evil and allow for difficulty regulation to no longer be a 'them versus us' situation within the playerbase, an internal division that keep actual balance from being reached.

And no, your wrong on the 'wouldn't reject that' thing. Many have. They see any ground given to anyone that isn't them as unacceptable, so speak for yourself next time.

Saturn

Joy_Division wrote: »

They are nerfing these dungeons because with the Morrowind nerfs, the '"ceiling" needed for player skill to complete them is too high in their eyes.

Saw this - and called this - coming during the Morrowind PTS process.

To be honest the whole, "lower the ceiling raise the floor" mantra that they've been chanting was just complete horsesh*t, because the ceiling stayed in place, but the floor was sunk into the basement. The people who had troubles with these dungeons before are likely having a real bad time now. Besides with Horns of the Reach the Shadows of the Hist update will be a year old, so you have to figure that they would nerf it to ease the newer players into them, considering how they've done the same with all other dungeons. We lose some difficulty with the old dungeons and gain some with the two new ones.

Doctordarkspawn

Saturn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

They are nerfing these dungeons because with the Morrowind nerfs, the '"ceiling" needed for player skill to complete them is too high in their eyes.

Saw this - and called this - coming during the Morrowind PTS process.

To be honest the whole, "lower the ceiling raise the floor" mantra that they've been chanting was just complete horsesh*t, because the ceiling stayed in place, but the floor was sunk into the basement. The people who had troubles with these dungeons before are likely having a real bad time now. Besides with Horns of the Reach the Shadows of the Hist update will be a year old, so you have to figure that they would nerf it to ease the newer players into them, considering how they've done the same with all other dungeons. We lose some difficulty with the old dungeons and gain some with the two new ones.

Your not at all wrong. If anything, the game got more user antifriendly and hard to learn.