ZoS WTH? Why are you nerfing the DLC dungeons?

josiahva

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.

If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.

You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.

PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.

And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.

s7732425ub17_ESO

ZOS cannot sell difficult content to casual players.

If ZOS wants to add very difficult content, they need to add it to the base game so that it comes free for everyone. To make money and appease a majority of the player base, they need to have easy-medium difficulty content in the DLCs.

josiahva

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS cannot sell difficult content to casual players.

If ZOS wants to add very difficult content, they need to add it to the base game so that it comes free for everyone. To make money and appease a majority of the player base, they need to have easy-medium difficulty content in the DLCs.

I can understand why you might think so....but if ZoS makes a habit of selling faceroll content in their DLCs, then that will make it so players like me wont buy their DLCs. I am sure that is fine with ZoS since we are a smallish(less than 50%) of the playerbase, but I dont think that is the ZoS strategy at all. I mean look at HoF...even on normal, its far more challenging than any of the other trials, I havent even tried it on vet yet, but I am sure its more difficult on that difficulty as well, so obviously ZoS does indeed cater to the more hardcore players with the premium DLC content...even the world bosses in Vvardenfell are more difficult than the base game world bosses. My point is that ZoS knows that people wont sub or buy DLCs until they are ready for more challenging content/more content in general. ZoS will NEVER be able to sell content that is easier than the base game, that would alienate everyone who bought the content.

DaveMoeDee

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS cannot sell difficult content to casual players.

If ZOS wants to add very difficult content, they need to add it to the base game so that it comes free for everyone. To make money and appease a majority of the player base, they need to have easy-medium difficulty content in the DLCs.

While I agree, I suspect many casual players like are like me and have no interest in the dungeon DLCs in the first place.

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Yes, by all means, introduce a 3rd difficulty. None of the players you deem so selfish would reject that. But we all know what happens in reality. ZOS doesn't add another difficulty. They simply nerf stuff if people QQ long enough. Hence the reaction of many players who enjoy a bit harder content - we don't want it to be watered down like 99% of the game already is.

If it was popular, it wouldn't be watered down.

Simple truth. I'd like for a difficulty that wouldn't be watered down and was freely advertised as what it is, so kills two birds with one stone.

Yes, I deem you selfish, because you are. You want to be special. But I also recognize that a third, or fourth difficulty tier would fullfill a necessary evil and allow for difficulty regulation to no longer be a 'them versus us' situation within the playerbase, an internal division that keep actual balance from being reached.

And no, your wrong on the 'wouldn't reject that' thing. Many have. They see any ground given to anyone that isn't them as unacceptable, so speak for yourself next time.

You keep arguing against a strawman so you can label people as "selfish".

Nobody is saying that they want higher difficulty so they can feel special. Nobody is saying they wouldn't want added difficulty ssettings (I'm not sure why you even bring this up since ZOS has made no mention of doing something like that).

But by all means, keep arguing against that strawman. You seem to be having a good time.

Leogon

You need to understand that the DLC dungeons were probably too hard for most players. For ZOS to make as much money as possible with their dungeon DLCs, they have to make sure that most players can complete them.

xaraan

Eh, I'm not always a fan of nerfing content down. We like the challenge. But some things need adjustment. Our group has 3 manned both of the Hist dungeons on Vet Hardmode, so sure, we can do it, but doesn't mean I don't recognize stuff that is annoying. Like how the veledreth fight feels more like it depends on too much on RNG luck than skill, or that taunts should last until they run out - boss taunt dropping is an annoying bug in too many cases (heck, the boss at the end of Direfrost still doesn't even obey taunting). Bosses dropping taunt isn't a L2P issue, it's either a bug or lazy design. Some of the complaints about things being over-nerfed I can agree with, but not all. It needed adjustments and I'm guessing if most of the player base can't do the content, then they are going to make the amount of adjustments we are seeing.

My only annoyance by this is usually stuff like how hard it was to earn a particular achievement or reward and then seeing the next round or two of players have it handed to them on a silver platter. But then again, I've watched this happen over and over since the game launched with countless things (even by players complaining now that earned their max levels, max CP, achievements, etc. much easier now that complain when it happens to them with the next generation). Nature of the beast.

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Yes, by all means, introduce a 3rd difficulty. None of the players you deem so selfish would reject that. But we all know what happens in reality. ZOS doesn't add another difficulty. They simply nerf stuff if people QQ long enough. Hence the reaction of many players who enjoy a bit harder content - we don't want it to be watered down like 99% of the game already is.

If it was popular, it wouldn't be watered down.

Simple truth. I'd like for a difficulty that wouldn't be watered down and was freely advertised as what it is, so kills two birds with one stone.

Yes, I deem you selfish, because you are. You want to be special. But I also recognize that a third, or fourth difficulty tier would fullfill a necessary evil and allow for difficulty regulation to no longer be a 'them versus us' situation within the playerbase, an internal division that keep actual balance from being reached.

And no, your wrong on the 'wouldn't reject that' thing. Many have. They see any ground given to anyone that isn't them as unacceptable, so speak for yourself next time.

You keep arguing against a strawman so you can label people as "selfish".

Nobody is saying that they want higher difficulty so they can feel special. Nobody is saying they wouldn't want added difficulty ssettings (I'm not sure why you even bring this up since ZOS has made no mention of doing something like that).

But by all means, keep arguing against that strawman. You seem to be having a good time.

Said all I needed to say a few posts ago, debunking your hyperbole and factually incorrect statements. Let other people defend themselves, you have bigger problems patching the holes in your own arguements.

If you cant figure out why I'm talking about difficulty settings, or the selfishness angle, you dont want to know. I know your smarter than that.

Doctordarkspawn

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.

If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.

You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.

PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.

And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.

Nah.

How long will it be before casuals cry that the third difficulty mode is too hard? Point me to any example you can find of this happening. As far as I know, people have problems with individual mechanics and scaling, not diffculty itself. Meanwhile, the hardcore crowd, has selfishly been yelling for difficulty increase at every opportunity. The people your describing are -your- side. Even when you come to the most polarizing pieces of content, VMA, most people who say VMA is too hard can point to -something- specific that makes it hard. The random mushroom placements. Et cetera. It's never been ""MAKE IT EASIER" no matter how much you want it to be so you can write these people off, or justify verbally abusing them.

I like Elden hollow. Thematically it's cool, and while the boss battles are not -that- advanced, it's cool enough to keep me interested. I'm sure I could find a use for the gear if I truely tried to, Barkskin seems like it'd be kewl in PVP, if I PVP'd. We can play the Opinion game but it isn't gonna get us anywhere man.

"vRoM isn't hard". Ooookay. Again, your spewing subjective statements of opinion at me. I can make a case that VRoM is a worst designed dungeon but so far you've not actually given me any reason's for it mechanically or design wise besides "OTHER PEOPLE CAN DO IT AND I DONT LIKE IT THEY MUST ALL BE BELOW ME"

You say that nerfing these bosses kills players skills. I beg to differ. The people I saw able to do these dungeons flawlessly were allready leagues above the people you claim to want to improve. This game never taught these things. You may delude yourself into thinking it, but most people doing these and teaching these are MMO veterans who learned these skills, elsewhere. Yes. ESO needs to do a better job of teaching but lets not kid ourselves, it never did teach. Ever.

The gap was allways there. You just never saw it. Or didn't care to, because the game fit your biases. I agree with you. This game does need to reinforce the holy trinity and their importance, teach players situational awareness and teamwork, but lets not kid ourselves. These dungeons, at current difficulty, cant, and wont teach that.

Oh, and @josiahva please, god, learn what the enter key, and paragraphs are, reading this was hell. Spelling is optional but at least break it into pieces so it's not word soup.

MLGProPlayer

Leogon wrote: »

You need to understand that the DLC dungeons were probably too hard for most players. For ZOS to make as much money as possible with their dungeon DLCs, they have to make sure that most players can complete them.

But most players can already complete them on normal.

Does everyone need to be able to complete everything on vet without putting effort in to learn the mechanics?

Feanor

The discussion is rather pointless. You can't convince people who think everybody should be able to complete "veteran" content without effort. I won't waste time on this any longer.

Doctordarkspawn

Feanor wrote: »

The discussion is rather pointless. You can't convince people who think everybody should be able to complete "veteran" content without effort. I won't waste time on this any longer.

Nobody said that. That was never anyones position.

People have disagreed with how the difficulty have been done and brought fourth the no doubt unplesent fact difficulty isn't what sells. No one has said 'these need to be easy so everyone can complete them'.

And people say I'm strawmanning.

Feanor

It's exactly what you have been saying all along. I'm all for tutorials or something that teaches new players how to play successfully in this game. I agree the game does a lousy job doing that. But taking away difficulty of each and every dungeon is not a solution to this issue.

ZoM_Head

Too many noobs and casuals in game right now.

They are making everything proc set 1 button for the win and instead of using your brains to understand mechanics and prepare yourself, they nerf things even further.

The only challenge right now in game is to find a good group to do trails (people that have a brain) and for AvA crossing your fingers for lag.

Doctordarkspawn

Feanor wrote: »

It's exactly what you have been saying all along. I'm all for tutorials or something that teaches new players how to play successfully in this game. I agree the game does a lousy job doing that. But taking away difficulty of each and every dungeon is not a solution to this issue.

Neither is piling on mechanics and thrusting them into the deep end and forcing them to sink or swim, as is what has been happening.

And again, that's not my position. Not that you care in the slightest. You want to improve the difficulty, and the scaling at the same time? Four difficulties, each with incremental difficulty up to harder than what vet currently is, fully flesh out the holy trinity and -keep it stable-, institute rigid classes if you have to, and keep it stable.

But it's not like you care, your content to lie about my position in order to push anyone who does not think like you out of the discussion. Hence why these keep being derailed when anyone actually tries to discuss it, aside from adding to the ***.

Feanor

Ok, then back to the simple question: Why is the normal version of the dungeon not enough for the players you have in mind? Why does the veteran version have to be nerfed?

s7732425ub17_ESO

ZOS needs to make the new DLC dungeons like the IC dungeons- good, solo mechanics with low RNG. Compare this to VROM or VCOS bosses- they all have group mechanics that must be performed, and some of the fights are heavy on RNG.

josiahva

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.

If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.

You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.

PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.

And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.

Nah.

How long will it be before casuals cry that the third difficulty mode is too hard? Point me to any example you can find of this happening. As far as I know, people have problems with individual mechanics and scaling, not diffculty itself. Meanwhile, the hardcore crowd, has selfishly been yelling for difficulty increase at every opportunity. The people your describing are -your- side. Even when you come to the most polarizing pieces of content, VMA, most people who say VMA is too hard can point to -something- specific that makes it hard. The random mushroom placements. Et cetera. It's never been ""MAKE IT EASIER" no matter how much you want it to be so you can write these people off, or justify verbally abusing them.

I like Elden hollow. Thematically it's cool, and while the boss battles are not -that- advanced, it's cool enough to keep me interested. I'm sure I could find a use for the gear if I truely tried to, Barkskin seems like it'd be kewl in PVP, if I PVP'd. We can play the Opinion game but it isn't gonna get us anywhere man.

"vRoM isn't hard". Ooookay. Again, your spewing subjective statements of opinion at me. I can make a case that VRoM is a worst designed dungeon but so far you've not actually given me any reason's for it mechanically or design wise besides "OTHER PEOPLE CAN DO IT AND I DONT LIKE IT THEY MUST ALL BE BELOW ME"

You say that nerfing these bosses kills players skills. I beg to differ. The people I saw able to do these dungeons flawlessly were allready leagues above the people you claim to want to improve. This game never taught these things. You may delude yourself into thinking it, but most people doing these and teaching these are MMO veterans who learned these skills, elsewhere. Yes. ESO needs to do a better job of teaching but lets not kid ourselves, it never did teach. Ever.

The gap was allways there. You just never saw it. Or didn't care to, because the game fit your biases. I agree with you. This game does need to reinforce the holy trinity and their importance, teach players situational awareness and teamwork, but lets not kid ourselves. These dungeons, at current difficulty, cant, and wont teach that.

Oh, and @josiahva please, god, learn what the enter key, and paragraphs are, reading this was hell. Spelling is optional but at least break it into pieces so it's not word soup.

First off, this is a forum post. I am not trying to publish it in a book, so the paragraphs really don't matter. If they did, you would start each one with an indent, not block format. Its true that I just don't like Elden Hollow 1 and I will agree that it is very subjective, but my point stands, its easy and can completed on vet mode by the worst group out there. Why bother with a vet dungeon like that? These dungeons in their current state DO teach teamwork and situational awareness. An example: Fighting the Lord Warden: You die if you do not keep an eye on when he flies into the air and calls the meteor. On Kena: You die if you dont know when to move away from the wall of death, she will knock you into it and you will die. On the Inhibitor: if you do not work as a team, you will die. On Xal-Nur: If you do not work as a team, you will die. On Velidreth: A lack of situational awareness will kill you because you are moving in the dark or because you don't pay attention to when you need to roll dodge. So what it is EXACTLY about these dungeons that is too hard? The mechanics are all straightforward. The ONLY thing you can say about vRoM is that it does have a minimum DPS threshold of around 40k group DPS to take the totem down fast enough...that is it. I agree that the vRoM DPS threshold is a weakness that say vCoS and vWGT don't have(groups with extremely bad group DPS can still beat those dungeons as long as they use skill to make up for the lack). Aside from that one thing in vRoM though, there is nothing else that cant be strategized around. So out of all the proposed nerfs, they dont address the one thing that truly IS a problem for newer players without established DPS skills. All the actual proposed nerfs do is make it so teamwork isn't important anymore. Take the inhibitor: Now two people can see/kill the rifts. What this does is make it so you can just pass responsibility for your job off on the "other" person. I will admit that as a tank, there is nothing worse that having the heatstroke DoT and getting rifts while you are trying to survive that DoT at the same time, but it can certainly be done even with 1400 weapon damage(though ZoS made it much harder with the changes to the bow heavy attack where you cant hold a heavy any more, making you actually have to rely on the stamina-costing poison injection). I do actually agree with the nerf that the portals need less health(mainly because pure tank damage sucks so much), but not that they need to be visible to multiple people. The Inhibitor fight and Xal-Nur in particular teach teamwork, but ZoS is in effect nerfing that. One last point..you still havent addressed why people need to be able to complete these on Vet anyway? Why isnt normal good enough for them until they become good enough to complete them on vet? Monster helms? That could easily be addressed by making the stupid things BoE as they should be. Why is everyone in the game entitled to easy dungeons? Answer THAT. Why does it bother you so much that there are hard dungeons out there? Dungeons that take situational awareness and teamwork to complete? You also haven't addressed why you don't support difficult 4-man content, if you did, you would support DLC dungeons being difficult. Why does every dungeon have to be easy? 90% of the dungeons in the game just isn't enough for you?

josiahva

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS needs to make the new DLC dungeons like the IC dungeons- good, solo mechanics with low RNG. Compare this to VROM or VCOS bosses- they all have group mechanics that must be performed, and some of the fights are heavy on RNG.

There is no RNG in these fights: Thats like saying that in COA II in the Fire Maw fight that the ads are showing up too fast. This is not true at all...the ads are perfectly manageable, people are just ignorantly taking him past his 75,50,25% health points before killing the existing wave of ads, making him call the next. The correct way to do the fire maw fight is to stop DPSing the boss and kill the ads one wave at a time...then he doesn't call "too many" ads. This same type of thing is happening in the Tree Minder fight in vRoM and in the Velidreth fight in vCoS, the only RNG in vCoS is which doors are closed...and that doesn't even really matter since you just go to the next door

Doctordarkspawn

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.

If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.

You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.

PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.

And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.

Nah.

How long will it be before casuals cry that the third difficulty mode is too hard? Point me to any example you can find of this happening. As far as I know, people have problems with individual mechanics and scaling, not diffculty itself. Meanwhile, the hardcore crowd, has selfishly been yelling for difficulty increase at every opportunity. The people your describing are -your- side. Even when you come to the most polarizing pieces of content, VMA, most people who say VMA is too hard can point to -something- specific that makes it hard. The random mushroom placements. Et cetera. It's never been ""MAKE IT EASIER" no matter how much you want it to be so you can write these people off, or justify verbally abusing them.

I like Elden hollow. Thematically it's cool, and while the boss battles are not -that- advanced, it's cool enough to keep me interested. I'm sure I could find a use for the gear if I truely tried to, Barkskin seems like it'd be kewl in PVP, if I PVP'd. We can play the Opinion game but it isn't gonna get us anywhere man.

"vRoM isn't hard". Ooookay. Again, your spewing subjective statements of opinion at me. I can make a case that VRoM is a worst designed dungeon but so far you've not actually given me any reason's for it mechanically or design wise besides "OTHER PEOPLE CAN DO IT AND I DONT LIKE IT THEY MUST ALL BE BELOW ME"

You say that nerfing these bosses kills players skills. I beg to differ. The people I saw able to do these dungeons flawlessly were allready leagues above the people you claim to want to improve. This game never taught these things. You may delude yourself into thinking it, but most people doing these and teaching these are MMO veterans who learned these skills, elsewhere. Yes. ESO needs to do a better job of teaching but lets not kid ourselves, it never did teach. Ever.

The gap was allways there. You just never saw it. Or didn't care to, because the game fit your biases. I agree with you. This game does need to reinforce the holy trinity and their importance, teach players situational awareness and teamwork, but lets not kid ourselves. These dungeons, at current difficulty, cant, and wont teach that.

Oh, and @josiahva please, god, learn what the enter key, and paragraphs are, reading this was hell. Spelling is optional but at least break it into pieces so it's not word soup.

First off, this is a forum post. I am not trying to publish it in a book, so the paragraphs really don't matter. If they did, you would start each one with an indent, not block format. Its true that I just don't like Elden Hollow 1 and I will agree that it is very subjective, but my point stands, its easy and can completed on vet mode by the worst group out there. Why bother with a vet dungeon like that? These dungeons in their current state DO teach teamwork and situational awareness. An example: Fighting the Lord Warden: You die if you do not keep an eye on when he flies into the air and calls the meteor. On Kena: You die if you dont know when to move away from the wall of death, she will knock you into it and you will die. On the Inhibitor: if you do not work as a team, you will die. On Xal-Nur: If you do not work as a team, you will die. On Velidreth: A lack of situational awareness will kill you because you are moving in the dark or because you don't pay attention to when you need to roll dodge. So what it is EXACTLY about these dungeons that is too hard? The mechanics are all straightforward. The ONLY thing you can say about vRoM is that it does have a minimum DPS threshold of around 40k group DPS to take the totem down fast enough...that is it. I agree that the vRoM DPS threshold is a weakness that say vCoS and vWGT don't have(groups with extremely bad group DPS can still beat those dungeons as long as they use skill to make up for the lack). Aside from that one thing in vRoM though, there is nothing else that cant be strategized around. So out of all the proposed nerfs, they dont address the one thing that truly IS a problem for newer players without established DPS skills. All the actual proposed nerfs do is make it so teamwork isn't important anymore. Take the inhibitor: Now two people can see/kill the rifts. What this does is make it so you can just pass responsibility for your job off on the "other" person. I will admit that as a tank, there is nothing worse that having the heatstroke DoT and getting rifts while you are trying to survive that DoT at the same time, but it can certainly be done even with 1400 weapon damage(though ZoS made it much harder with the changes to the bow heavy attack where you cant hold a heavy any more, making you actually have to rely on the stamina-costing poison injection). I do actually agree with the nerf that the portals need less health(mainly because pure tank damage sucks so much), but not that they need to be visible to multiple people. The Inhibitor fight and Xal-Nur in particular teach teamwork, but ZoS is in effect nerfing that. One last point..you still havent addressed why people need to be able to complete these on Vet anyway? Why isnt normal good enough for them until they become good enough to complete them on vet? Monster helms? That could easily be addressed by making the stupid things BoE as they should be. Why is everyone in the game entitled to easy dungeons? Answer THAT. Why does it bother you so much that there are hard dungeons out there? Dungeons that take situational awareness and teamwork to complete? You also haven't addressed why you don't support difficult 4-man content, if you did, you would support DLC dungeons being difficult. Why does every dungeon have to be easy? 90% of the dungeons in the game just isn't enough for you?

The first line, and last line, are all I really needed to read on this one. Whatever delusions you have of my position it's clear you cant seperate them from reality.

Xal-Nur teaches Teamwork. Planar Inhib does not. The reason Xal Nur teaches Teamwork, is that each roll has a specific job, and those jobs are multi purpose. DPS ferry the spice, tanks interrupt Nur, so on and so fourth. Planar Inhib on the other hand is the wrong kind of team-work. The game needs to enforce the rolls, not wittle them down by requiring everyone be everything.


I'll tell you, what I told the last guy. Word for word.

You want to improve the difficulty, and the scaling at the same time? Four difficulties, each with incremental difficulty up to harder than what vet currently is, fully flesh out the holy trinity and -keep it stable-, institute rigid classes if you have to, and keep it stable.

I support difficult four man content, I support hard dungeons. I dont, however, think the current system can provide them as the best they can be and if you want to make that change, you'd need to rebuild the roll system from the ground up. Either get rid of it entirely, or enforce it. The entire system needs to change before what you want, is possible in it's best possible form.

Again, though, this is pointless. To quote you. "You also haven't adressed why you dont support difficult 4-man content, if you did, you would support DLC dungeons being difficult". Translation. "Think like me or you hate difficulty". There is no talking to the irrational, the indoctrinated, or the delusional. So until you can calm down and actually see peoples positions for what they are, you will not be responded to again.

Doctordarkspawn

Feanor wrote: »

Ok, then back to the simple question: Why is the normal version of the dungeon not enough for the players you have in mind? Why does the veteran version have to be nerfed?

@Feanor

Because if you want to teach players you need to have a ladder instead of a sheer cliff.

Keep normal the way it is. Slightly nerf Veteran to what it was pre homestead. Have a new difficulty, elite, slightly harder than what is currently available, possibly including penalties to resource management, and finally, add Soul Shriven, the final difficulty that would force players to take on specialized rolls.

That is how I'd do it. The casuals would stay at normal or vet, the people who'd want to learn would run Elite until they could run Soul Shriven, and the difficulty crowd could live in Soul Shriven. In order to incentivize Soul Shriven, I've put fourth having gold drops there, many a time.

Players have individual rungs they can use to train to familiarize themselves with routes, layouts, basic boss mechanics, with these slowly ramping up difficulty to difficulty. That's how I'd do it, provided the holy trinity was actually enforced. That's allways what I've proposed.

The current system is too binary. That's my complaint, that's allways been my complaint. The normal version is the kiddie pool, and people will never want to learn without a way to train by incriment, not being thrown into the deep end of the pool. It's not a question of giving as many people completion as possible, or 'broadening the demographic'. It's a question of giving both demographics what they want and giving people the tools to bridge their interests into a hardcore setting.

What I propose is a complete -overhaul-, of the difficulty system and it's use and inclusion of rolls in generally, because I do not believe the current is sufficient for anyone who wants any middle ground between 'casual' and 'raider'. It satisfies neither, and no one in between. It is high time, the game had a jumpstart.

josiahva

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.

If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.

You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.

PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.

And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.

Nah.

How long will it be before casuals cry that the third difficulty mode is too hard? Point me to any example you can find of this happening. As far as I know, people have problems with individual mechanics and scaling, not diffculty itself. Meanwhile, the hardcore crowd, has selfishly been yelling for difficulty increase at every opportunity. The people your describing are -your- side. Even when you come to the most polarizing pieces of content, VMA, most people who say VMA is too hard can point to -something- specific that makes it hard. The random mushroom placements. Et cetera. It's never been ""MAKE IT EASIER" no matter how much you want it to be so you can write these people off, or justify verbally abusing them.

I like Elden hollow. Thematically it's cool, and while the boss battles are not -that- advanced, it's cool enough to keep me interested. I'm sure I could find a use for the gear if I truely tried to, Barkskin seems like it'd be kewl in PVP, if I PVP'd. We can play the Opinion game but it isn't gonna get us anywhere man.

"vRoM isn't hard". Ooookay. Again, your spewing subjective statements of opinion at me. I can make a case that VRoM is a worst designed dungeon but so far you've not actually given me any reason's for it mechanically or design wise besides "OTHER PEOPLE CAN DO IT AND I DONT LIKE IT THEY MUST ALL BE BELOW ME"

You say that nerfing these bosses kills players skills. I beg to differ. The people I saw able to do these dungeons flawlessly were allready leagues above the people you claim to want to improve. This game never taught these things. You may delude yourself into thinking it, but most people doing these and teaching these are MMO veterans who learned these skills, elsewhere. Yes. ESO needs to do a better job of teaching but lets not kid ourselves, it never did teach. Ever.

The gap was allways there. You just never saw it. Or didn't care to, because the game fit your biases. I agree with you. This game does need to reinforce the holy trinity and their importance, teach players situational awareness and teamwork, but lets not kid ourselves. These dungeons, at current difficulty, cant, and wont teach that.

Oh, and @josiahva please, god, learn what the enter key, and paragraphs are, reading this was hell. Spelling is optional but at least break it into pieces so it's not word soup.

First off, this is a forum post. I am not trying to publish it in a book, so the paragraphs really don't matter. If they did, you would start each one with an indent, not block format. Its true that I just don't like Elden Hollow 1 and I will agree that it is very subjective, but my point stands, its easy and can completed on vet mode by the worst group out there. Why bother with a vet dungeon like that? These dungeons in their current state DO teach teamwork and situational awareness. An example: Fighting the Lord Warden: You die if you do not keep an eye on when he flies into the air and calls the meteor. On Kena: You die if you dont know when to move away from the wall of death, she will knock you into it and you will die. On the Inhibitor: if you do not work as a team, you will die. On Xal-Nur: If you do not work as a team, you will die. On Velidreth: A lack of situational awareness will kill you because you are moving in the dark or because you don't pay attention to when you need to roll dodge. So what it is EXACTLY about these dungeons that is too hard? The mechanics are all straightforward. The ONLY thing you can say about vRoM is that it does have a minimum DPS threshold of around 40k group DPS to take the totem down fast enough...that is it. I agree that the vRoM DPS threshold is a weakness that say vCoS and vWGT don't have(groups with extremely bad group DPS can still beat those dungeons as long as they use skill to make up for the lack). Aside from that one thing in vRoM though, there is nothing else that cant be strategized around. So out of all the proposed nerfs, they dont address the one thing that truly IS a problem for newer players without established DPS skills. All the actual proposed nerfs do is make it so teamwork isn't important anymore. Take the inhibitor: Now two people can see/kill the rifts. What this does is make it so you can just pass responsibility for your job off on the "other" person. I will admit that as a tank, there is nothing worse that having the heatstroke DoT and getting rifts while you are trying to survive that DoT at the same time, but it can certainly be done even with 1400 weapon damage(though ZoS made it much harder with the changes to the bow heavy attack where you cant hold a heavy any more, making you actually have to rely on the stamina-costing poison injection). I do actually agree with the nerf that the portals need less health(mainly because pure tank damage sucks so much), but not that they need to be visible to multiple people. The Inhibitor fight and Xal-Nur in particular teach teamwork, but ZoS is in effect nerfing that. One last point..you still havent addressed why people need to be able to complete these on Vet anyway? Why isnt normal good enough for them until they become good enough to complete them on vet? Monster helms? That could easily be addressed by making the stupid things BoE as they should be. Why is everyone in the game entitled to easy dungeons? Answer THAT. Why does it bother you so much that there are hard dungeons out there? Dungeons that take situational awareness and teamwork to complete? You also haven't addressed why you don't support difficult 4-man content, if you did, you would support DLC dungeons being difficult. Why does every dungeon have to be easy? 90% of the dungeons in the game just isn't enough for you?

The first line, and last line, are all I really needed to read on this one. Whatever delusions you have of my position it's clear you cant seperate them from reality.

Xal-Nur teaches Teamwork. Planar Inhib does not. The reason Xal Nur teaches Teamwork, is that each roll has a specific job, and those jobs are multi purpose. DPS ferry the spice, tanks interrupt Nur, so on and so fourth. Planar Inhib on the other hand is the wrong kind of team-work. The game needs to enforce the rolls, not wittle them down by requiring everyone be everything.

Fun fact, I tank too. And the only thing the Planar inhib taught me is to have a DPS bar. It's not adding depth or teaching people. It's demanding people be everything, and if that's the case, why dont we just throw out rolls alltogether?

I'll tell you, what I told the last guy. Word for word.

You want to improve the difficulty, and the scaling at the same time? Four difficulties, each with incremental difficulty up to harder than what vet currently is, fully flesh out the holy trinity and -keep it stable-, institute rigid classes if you have to, and keep it stable.

The planar inhibitor does indeed teach teamwork. There are two ways to do the inhibitor:
1. Pinion stays closed all the time, never open for more than a second. This prevents the heatstroke DoT on the tank, but risks the tank getting portals...this is fine.
2. Tank holds pinion the entire time she is not in coldfire mode. This reduces the risk of the tank getting portals significantly, but the tradeoff is that the tank is guaranteed to get heatstroke and spend resources fighting it.

Both these ways of doing the inhibitor fight require the DPS to have specific jobs....their priority is of course the portals, then the pinion, then the ads, and finally the boss. If one of the DPS fails to do their job in that order, the group fails...hence, teamwork. The same holds true for the healer and tank. Everyone has a job to do, its not a big burden for the tank or healer to close the portals as long as one of the two above mechanics are followed.

You are advocating for an additional 2 difficulty levels. This is all well and good, but you are advocating for nerfs before ZoS even floats that(or a similar) idea. In effect, all this does is take away from those who enjoy hard content to give that content to people who do not enjoy hard content. I could understand even that, but what makes this bad is that those who enjoy easy content ALREADY HAVE PLENTY OF EASY CONTENT, while those who enjoy hard 4-man content have a total of 4 dungeons + vDSA and that is it, nothing else at all(and truthfully I barely even count vICP as difficult). Why do you keep avoiding this issue...that there is plenty of easy content, but little hard content as far as 4-man dungeons go? Its like me taxing you 90% of your income to give it to the poor...and then a month later coming back to take the remaining 10% you have left, all because those poor deserve a chance too...in the meantime you have made me poor to accomplish your goals.

Doctordarkspawn

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The problem with the DLC dungeons was they have allways been brutally hard and that was when we could just build full damage and so on. Honestly, now that we've been nerfed into oblivion, Tank resource sustain driven into the ground, this isn't far enough.

They need to be further nerfed because of how much we have been nerfed. It is what it is. We've allways been on the brink of not being able to complete content with the tools given, and upon re-inspection I dont think player want has had anything to do with it. So bring more, nerf the content more, lets get actual even playing fields for these super hard dungeons.

Casual has nothing to do with it. Entitled has nothing to do with it. The difficulty people have fell in love with has been a side product of mismanagement, only appealing to those who either fanatically love the game and will never see anything wrong with it, or their lifestyle, or those who equate frustration to fun. And it needs to go. Of course, for it to get there several changes would be needed to be made to the combat system at large, so I'll take it where I can.

I'm not buying the new dungeons so I dont have a horse in that race, but still. Shadows of the Hist has allways needed a nerf, and Mazzatuns nerf does not go far enough. Nerf them more. It's time for the mismanagement difficulty to end.

Look. We agreed on many points (remember Morrowind turning ESO into Dark Souls? ). But SotH difficulty? Please.

The only thing you need for them is the group willing to communicate. Ideally - people who already know mechanics, than these dungs are a breeze. But if they don't, it's totally ok for as long as they are willing to communicate.

I'll just quote myself:

Dantaria wrote: »

FYI, petless magsorc in Julianos here. Obtained both Mazzatun and Cradle skins on ~350CP. 45+% of group DPS solid. In Homestead, yes. In Morrowind you'll have to be 400CP+. And I'm talking about skins, not just completion of vet.

All you need is knowledge of mechanics (and guides are there, all possible guides are there) and all skip-routes for mobs in vRoM

I'm freaking casual with 30k DPS on skele and in half crafted gear. Just 2 days ago I dragged 230CP stamNB through vCoS with only one wipe (he needed a mask). Do you know how we wiped? This stamNB and tank didn't know how to get out of Catacombs. They were paired twice and died together twice. First time I managed to rez tank in time, second time - nope.

Was this dungeon's fault? LOLnope

So let's see. One lowbie noob DD (with low DPS) + decent (not good, 30k is decent but nowhere near ceiling) experienced DD me + noob tank + experienced healer = only one wipe.

There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them. Absolutely nothing.

It's people who refuse to listen and to learn who are the problem - and that's on humanity, not poor dungeons.

For the most part, I agree. Where I dont, it's because those mechanics are a crapshoot.

Velindra's little orb patterns are a crapshoot. Mazzatuns final boss, whether it decides to spawn all the mechanics at once and get you killed, is a crapshoot. Good for you for being better than anyone else but your skill does not make the final boss of maz, any less bull.

The problem is generally speaking when mechanics become chance-based or have very little counter-ability. And their working to remove that. Velindreth is geting alot more interruptable, now if they would limit the ammount of mechanics that the final boss of Maz can use? I would take that.

"There is nothing difficult in these dungeons once you learn them". Geting hit with an Amberpalsm manifestation, and Totem at once is difficult. Watching the second major boss of Cradle of shaddows rubberband across the arena and hit me is impossible. These dungeons still have issues, and I'm sorry, I'm never going to stop harping on them. Dunno what your trying to pull here. Human error cannot explain -all- of it. I've beat both on Vet, I know I could prolly get both skins if I wanted to build full meta and run with the same but I dont, but I -also- recognize that most of the issues these dungeons have, are chance based.


I'd also like to point out, for two dungeons that require extensive communication, that ESO on PC still has no voice option. Seems kinda counter-intuitive.

@Dantaria

I'm not Dantaria but I do think that just because you don't want to put in the effort required to learn these dungeons(which is not a bad thing btw, there're thousands of other things you can enjoy in the game, not everyone has to like same thing. It simply means these dungeons are not for you), doesn't mean they should be nerfed.

Far as vchat goes, there's Discord, TS and a gazillion other options. My no death hm speedruns there were without voicechat though. Just saying.

Velindra? Do you mean Velidreth? ...how many times have you actually done it to call her Velindra?;) If by little orb you mean Orb of Spite then that's the only nerf I could agree with due to it being able to proc 2-3 times in a row for ~20k dmg each - and that's one thing they did NOT nerf. Lol. The spores, that were nerfed, are a mechanics issue. Get a tank whose highest resource is health, get him to slot high cost ulti and never use it and only get health spores ever again.

Maz final boss has pretty clear patterns. She summons first amber shade at ~2/3 health and second at ~1/3. She summons ads on timer(and she doesn't summon ads when ambershades are up). It goes a lot easier if you can dps her to 2/3 before first ads spawn(which only needs like 25k dps a person btw iirc), but if you can't, you focus ads. Actually you always focus ads when they're up, only thing that gets more priority is the totem.

The boss cannot do totem and statue at once. If you got hit by totem while having statue, you took too long killing the statue. If you got hit by statue while killing the totem, you took too long killing the totem. There is a dps race element involved in ROM HM but ~20-25k dps is enough to pass it just fine if everyone knows what they are doing and this is a fine requirement for most challenging 4 man content in game.

Amber shades are safe time. You kill ads if there're any and charge your ultimates/restore resources. If you kill amber shades while still having ads up, yeah you will be in trouble, but that's on you. She will immediately do the vision and summon ads after amber shade stage, and this is when everyone needs to move to statue together, healer spams a lot of heals, tank if they can use a lot of shields, you strafe around avoiding aoe and kill statue asap, then she does totem and you move onto that. ONE decent dps is capable of killing a totem in time. It's ideal if you alternate your ultis, someone uses their on totem and someone on ads so you don't get overwhelmed.

The seeming cluster...mess of mechanics gets a lot easier and even fun as you get more used to it. You start getting better at it and feel proud for finally managing it all flawlessly. Along with nerfing mechanics, they nerf that feeling too...and that's the feeling a lot of us run dungeons for. Also, you are right about rng based mechanics partially, for example it's very hard for the group in RoM if healer gets statue in execute. There're ways to counter that - dps slotting off heals, tank spamming shield on healer, dps being high enough to kill boss before healer dies - but it is a lot harder than when healer does not get the vision. There's also rng involved in open doors in Veli's maze. But funny things, they did NOT nerf that. They nerfed stellar mechanics that were not rng dependant and simply required you to know and follow them in order to succeed.

I'm also not sure who you mean by "second major CoS boss". The dunmer guy? He has very clear patterns too. First off he becomes increasingly more difficult the worse your dps is. With great dps he will do his teleport thing like once or twice maybe, with 7k group dps he will do it 494797 times. However it still isn't a direct dps race, it's doable with literally any dps if you pay attention. His teleport thing is blockable(also shieldable, you should nearly always have shield up there if you're magicka) and you can usually see it coming so block. It also shouldn't one shot you even if you don't block - unless you stay there afterwards. It will spawn aoe where it hit you so after blocking, get out of it and get ready to bash. He will jump to the person having agro last and pin them down, after which you need to bash the chain holding ads. All his other attacks are tauntable(or small radius AoEs which you have no excuse to stand in unless tank).

All I see is bragging and nitpicking at my spelling (Or mistaken identity.). This was made late at night. Some mistakes will be made, but otherwise, If you cant understand my complaints, your not looking hard enough. Then again, considering you take my complaint about the Dunmer boss in COS rubberbanding across the room like it -allways has- and then spew mechanical lectures at me, your not interested in speaking. Your interested in educating the heathen.

Maz is buggered no matter how you slice it. If you get off on that extreme difficulty, fine. There are plenty of games that cater to you. I suggest you go play them. You call the game spawning amber shades, totems, and adds with CC all at once fun? I call it *** design with very little counter outside of DPS burn we no longer have.

You say that it gets more fun the more you do it. I dont. I dont equate frustration with fun. I think you've brainwashed yourself into liking it through brute force repition, and I have no desire to do it myself. I hear the same thing from dark souls players, who break their minds into enjoying it, maybe you'd fit in well over there.

And I have nothing more to say since I do not think I could actually have a conversation with you. it's clear you intend to talk -at- me, not with me. The dungeons need a nerf. This game does not need to be darksouls. That's my Opinion, you can take it, or leave it.

And, for refrence, the only thing I'd do differently with these dungeons is lower the resistances of health and mobs slightly, across the board, and block the ammount of mechanics that can happen at once. No doubt this angers you. I suggest, again, that you play a game designed for your taste, and not one we all have to share.
@Magdala

You dont seem to understand the tree-minder fight. Nothing happens "at the same time". It only seems that way because you fail to communicate with your group and play correctly. As an example...during the last 30%, its easy to just STOP DPSing while your cursed companion takes care of the statue so you dont trigger her next totem before your ally has broken the curse. Its a TIMING issue, all her mechanics happen at certain percentages. If you are unable to pay attention to those percentages and how that affects timing...thats on you, NOT a failure of the dungeon. IF YOU DONT LIKE THE DLC DUNGEONS DIFFICULTY, DONT PLAY THEM. There is normal mode for people like you who just want to faceroll all the content in the game, you have a TON of other dungeons....there is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the player base who enjoys difficult small-man content...all these nerfs do is restrict us to ONLY vDSA...dont you facerolling RPers have enough dungeons? Do you have to take the few that we have left?

Tell you what...I will support these nerfs if they make a 3rd difficulty mode for ALL dungeons that facerollers have no hope of completing...until then...no.

It is a failure of a dungeon, and overwhelming the players with mechanics is not a substitute for actuall difficulty through well-implimented, well thought out mechanics. Maz is bad, Xal-Nur is good. The final boss is oddly low quality for a dungeon with the previous two bosses, being akin to puzzle bosses, which I enjoy.

If you want a game about difficulty and resource management, play darksouls. Poor you, who's fun now only comes from -one- area nobody can access that you are the king of. Oh poor you. Cry me a river, if your ego is so fragile that you only derive joy from doing what no one else can you have bigger issues than this game.

You have a entire game series or two, just for you. I suggest you play them. And for a small part of the playerbase who enjoys difficult small-man content, you sure are intent on focusing the balance toward stuff that you like. Like resource management. You take from us almost every update with general balancing that makes the game harder, you can deal with feeling the same for a while. Cry more crocodile tears.

PS: I've been advocating for a difficulty just for people like you for ages with gold drops of all sets, as well as a intermediate difficulty to bridge normal and vet. You want that difficulty? By all means, have it @josiahva if that's what it takes to allow your pride to let the filthy casuals have even an inch of ground or consideration beyond blind hatred, fine. Take it. It was what I was advocating anyway.

And just how long do you think it would be before "casuals"(I dont believe in either casuals or elite players...thats just collectivism) would be crying that the 3rd difficulty mode is too hard? Thats exactly the problem....nerf content to lowest common denominator until its no fun anymore. Do you have any idea how much I detest vet Elden Hollow I? It is hands down the worst dungeon in the game....its got a terrible entrance(rocks in the waterfall...wth?), it has no good gear at all, and it is mind-numbing in how easy it is. The worst group you can find is able to complete that dungeon. What you are advocating here is that all dungeons become Elden Hollow 1. Do you realize that the DLC dungeons have a normal mode? Why do you even bother to play vet mode if its too hard for you? Vet mode in vRoM isnt hard....aside from HM that is(HM is truly difficult on the tree minder, very punishing without almost perfect play). I am not asking to make the rest of vet dungeons harder...just to keep the DLC dungeons difficult...you have DOZENS of other dungeons, don't you think there should be some for the rest of us? Yes or No? 4% of the dungeons in this game actually have some little amount of skill involved, but its not enough for you. You want vet mode of those dungeons nerfed as well. If a third difficulty level were added to dungeons, you would be back here in six months crying about how the 3rd mode is too hard and you would want it too nerfed down to the worst player in the game. This has nothing to do with being "elite" or excluding players from content. I often run vCoS with sub-CP160 players and teach them the content, I explain the mechanics of every boss fight that requires mechanics. They dont have a difficult time and we are able to finish the dungeon just fine. What this does is that it makes them better players...they will be able to go on and complete vet trials and vMA, etc. because they have learned something from these dungeons. By making 2 people able to kill portals on inhibitor fight in vWGT, what this effectively does is tell those players that teamwork isnt important. Nerfing Xal-Nur's charge effectively decreases new players' situational awareness. Nerfing the 1st boss in vICP reduces the survival skill of new players because currently the tank has no way to control all those ads so others in the group have to learn to survive on their own. These are all things players who have completed these dungeons BEFORE the nerfs will have learned that new players will not have the opportunity to learn. All this does is create a huge skill gap between older players and newer players, by nerfing dungeons, all you are doing is making the jump to other end-game content even more of a leap. Sure....some people will be able to overcome that gap anyway...but many small changes like this adds up to a lot of players never making that jump.

Nah.

How long will it be before casuals cry that the third difficulty mode is too hard? Point me to any example you can find of this happening. As far as I know, people have problems with individual mechanics and scaling, not diffculty itself. Meanwhile, the hardcore crowd, has selfishly been yelling for difficulty increase at every opportunity. The people your describing are -your- side. Even when you come to the most polarizing pieces of content, VMA, most people who say VMA is too hard can point to -something- specific that makes it hard. The random mushroom placements. Et cetera. It's never been ""MAKE IT EASIER" no matter how much you want it to be so you can write these people off, or justify verbally abusing them.

I like Elden hollow. Thematically it's cool, and while the boss battles are not -that- advanced, it's cool enough to keep me interested. I'm sure I could find a use for the gear if I truely tried to, Barkskin seems like it'd be kewl in PVP, if I PVP'd. We can play the Opinion game but it isn't gonna get us anywhere man.

"vRoM isn't hard". Ooookay. Again, your spewing subjective statements of opinion at me. I can make a case that VRoM is a worst designed dungeon but so far you've not actually given me any reason's for it mechanically or design wise besides "OTHER PEOPLE CAN DO IT AND I DONT LIKE IT THEY MUST ALL BE BELOW ME"

You say that nerfing these bosses kills players skills. I beg to differ. The people I saw able to do these dungeons flawlessly were allready leagues above the people you claim to want to improve. This game never taught these things. You may delude yourself into thinking it, but most people doing these and teaching these are MMO veterans who learned these skills, elsewhere. Yes. ESO needs to do a better job of teaching but lets not kid ourselves, it never did teach. Ever.

The gap was allways there. You just never saw it. Or didn't care to, because the game fit your biases. I agree with you. This game does need to reinforce the holy trinity and their importance, teach players situational awareness and teamwork, but lets not kid ourselves. These dungeons, at current difficulty, cant, and wont teach that.

Oh, and @josiahva please, god, learn what the enter key, and paragraphs are, reading this was hell. Spelling is optional but at least break it into pieces so it's not word soup.

First off, this is a forum post. I am not trying to publish it in a book, so the paragraphs really don't matter. If they did, you would start each one with an indent, not block format. Its true that I just don't like Elden Hollow 1 and I will agree that it is very subjective, but my point stands, its easy and can completed on vet mode by the worst group out there. Why bother with a vet dungeon like that? These dungeons in their current state DO teach teamwork and situational awareness. An example: Fighting the Lord Warden: You die if you do not keep an eye on when he flies into the air and calls the meteor. On Kena: You die if you dont know when to move away from the wall of death, she will knock you into it and you will die. On the Inhibitor: if you do not work as a team, you will die. On Xal-Nur: If you do not work as a team, you will die. On Velidreth: A lack of situational awareness will kill you because you are moving in the dark or because you don't pay attention to when you need to roll dodge. So what it is EXACTLY about these dungeons that is too hard? The mechanics are all straightforward. The ONLY thing you can say about vRoM is that it does have a minimum DPS threshold of around 40k group DPS to take the totem down fast enough...that is it. I agree that the vRoM DPS threshold is a weakness that say vCoS and vWGT don't have(groups with extremely bad group DPS can still beat those dungeons as long as they use skill to make up for the lack). Aside from that one thing in vRoM though, there is nothing else that cant be strategized around. So out of all the proposed nerfs, they dont address the one thing that truly IS a problem for newer players without established DPS skills. All the actual proposed nerfs do is make it so teamwork isn't important anymore. Take the inhibitor: Now two people can see/kill the rifts. What this does is make it so you can just pass responsibility for your job off on the "other" person. I will admit that as a tank, there is nothing worse that having the heatstroke DoT and getting rifts while you are trying to survive that DoT at the same time, but it can certainly be done even with 1400 weapon damage(though ZoS made it much harder with the changes to the bow heavy attack where you cant hold a heavy any more, making you actually have to rely on the stamina-costing poison injection). I do actually agree with the nerf that the portals need less health(mainly because pure tank damage sucks so much), but not that they need to be visible to multiple people. The Inhibitor fight and Xal-Nur in particular teach teamwork, but ZoS is in effect nerfing that. One last point..you still havent addressed why people need to be able to complete these on Vet anyway? Why isnt normal good enough for them until they become good enough to complete them on vet? Monster helms? That could easily be addressed by making the stupid things BoE as they should be. Why is everyone in the game entitled to easy dungeons? Answer THAT. Why does it bother you so much that there are hard dungeons out there? Dungeons that take situational awareness and teamwork to complete? You also haven't addressed why you don't support difficult 4-man content, if you did, you would support DLC dungeons being difficult. Why does every dungeon have to be easy? 90% of the dungeons in the game just isn't enough for you?

The first line, and last line, are all I really needed to read on this one. Whatever delusions you have of my position it's clear you cant seperate them from reality.

Xal-Nur teaches Teamwork. Planar Inhib does not. The reason Xal Nur teaches Teamwork, is that each roll has a specific job, and those jobs are multi purpose. DPS ferry the spice, tanks interrupt Nur, so on and so fourth. Planar Inhib on the other hand is the wrong kind of team-work. The game needs to enforce the rolls, not wittle them down by requiring everyone be everything.

Fun fact, I tank too. And the only thing the Planar inhib taught me is to have a DPS bar. It's not adding depth or teaching people. It's demanding people be everything, and if that's the case, why dont we just throw out rolls alltogether?

I'll tell you, what I told the last guy. Word for word.

You want to improve the difficulty, and the scaling at the same time? Four difficulties, each with incremental difficulty up to harder than what vet currently is, fully flesh out the holy trinity and -keep it stable-, institute rigid classes if you have to, and keep it stable.

The planar inhibitor does indeed teach teamwork. There are two ways to do the inhibitor:
1. Pinion stays closed all the time, never open for more than a second. This prevents the heatstroke DoT on the tank, but risks the tank getting portals...this is fine.
2. Tank holds pinion the entire time she is not in coldfire mode. This reduces the risk of the tank getting portals significantly, but the tradeoff is that the tank is guaranteed to get heatstroke and spend resources fighting it.

Both these ways of doing the inhibitor fight require the DPS to have specific jobs....their priority is of course the portals, then the pinion, then the ads, and finally the boss. If one of the DPS fails to do their job in that order, the group fails...hence, teamwork. The same holds true for the healer and tank. Everyone has a job to do, its not a big burden for the tank or healer to close the portals as long as one of the two above mechanics are followed.

You are advocating for an additional 2 difficulty levels. This is all well and good, but you are advocating for nerfs before ZoS even floats that(or a similar) idea. In effect, all this does is take away from those who enjoy hard content to give that content to people who do not enjoy hard content. I could understand even that, but what makes this bad is that those who enjoy easy content ALREADY HAVE PLENTY OF EASY CONTENT, while those who enjoy hard 4-man content have a total of 4 dungeons + vDSA and that is it, nothing else at all(and truthfully I barely even count vICP as difficult). Why do you keep avoiding this issue...that there is plenty of easy content, but little hard content as far as 4-man dungeons go? Its like me taxing you 90% of your income to give it to the poor...and then a month later coming back to take the remaining 10% you have left, all because those poor deserve a chance too...in the meantime you have made me poor to accomplish your goals.

Why do I keep avoiding the issue that I've adressed allready and generally dont advocate anyway? Gee, lets think about that for a second. But before I dismiss you for the last friggin time, I'll do it -again-.

I still call the Planar inhib changes good. I still call the Velindreth changes good. I think that Planar Inhib isn't teaching teamwork and this is making it so the only person taking care of rifts isn't your tank or healer, someone who should never be forced into rolls like this in the first place. I think Velidreth was a crap fight and the less mechanics that need to be delt with at once, the better.

That. Said. You keep trying to convince yourself, and me, that I should just go back to the nice normal difficulty and be thankfull for it. But I've made clear why I hate normal difficulty, so at this point either your not lisening, or your genuinely jumping at shadows. I've not avoided the issue at all, I just wont give you an answer you want.

Again. Until you learn to seperate fantasy from reality, this is the last time I'm responding to you. Your not reasonable. You keep putting words in my mouth and trying to link me with positions I dont hold, and have never made a case for. Until you get that sorted out, there isn't anything more to be said.

Erraln

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Ok, then back to the simple question: Why is the normal version of the dungeon not enough for the players you have in mind? Why does the veteran version have to be nerfed?

@Feanor

Because if you want to teach players you need to have a ladder instead of a sheer cliff.

Keep normal the way it is. Slightly nerf Veteran to what it was pre homestead. Have a new difficulty, elite, slightly harder than what is currently available, possibly including penalties to resource management, and finally, add Soul Shriven, the final difficulty that would force players to take on specialized rolls.

That is how I'd do it. The casuals would stay at normal or vet, the people who'd want to learn would run Elite until they could run Soul Shriven, and the difficulty crowd could live in Soul Shriven. In order to incentivize Soul Shriven, I've put fourth having gold drops there, many a time.

Players have individual rungs they can use to train to familiarize themselves with routes, layouts, basic boss mechanics, with these slowly ramping up difficulty to difficulty. That's how I'd do it, provided the holy trinity was actually enforced. That's allways what I've proposed.

The current system is too binary. That's my complaint, that's allways been my complaint. The normal version is the kiddie pool, and people will never want to learn without a way to train by incriment, not being thrown into the deep end of the pool. It's not a question of giving as many people completion as possible, or 'broadening the demographic'. It's a question of giving both demographics what they want and giving people the tools to bridge their interests into a hardcore setting.

What I propose is a complete -overhaul-, of the difficulty system and it's use and inclusion of rolls in generally, because I do not believe the current is sufficient for anyone who wants any middle ground between 'casual' and 'raider'. It satisfies neither, and no one in between. It is high time, the game had a jumpstart.

I don't think the pool owners are going to do a complete remodel any time soon. In your approval of reducing the deep end's depth below that required for safe diving, have you thought that your swimming partners may now find the pool uninteresting, and leave you with the waders?

Or to dispense with metaphors, why spend such energy playing devil's advocate for the uninterested and unteachable? They have their difficulty mode already.

Doctordarkspawn

Erraln wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Ok, then back to the simple question: Why is the normal version of the dungeon not enough for the players you have in mind? Why does the veteran version have to be nerfed?

@Feanor

Because if you want to teach players you need to have a ladder instead of a sheer cliff.

Keep normal the way it is. Slightly nerf Veteran to what it was pre homestead. Have a new difficulty, elite, slightly harder than what is currently available, possibly including penalties to resource management, and finally, add Soul Shriven, the final difficulty that would force players to take on specialized rolls.

That is how I'd do it. The casuals would stay at normal or vet, the people who'd want to learn would run Elite until they could run Soul Shriven, and the difficulty crowd could live in Soul Shriven. In order to incentivize Soul Shriven, I've put fourth having gold drops there, many a time.

Players have individual rungs they can use to train to familiarize themselves with routes, layouts, basic boss mechanics, with these slowly ramping up difficulty to difficulty. That's how I'd do it, provided the holy trinity was actually enforced. That's allways what I've proposed.

The current system is too binary. That's my complaint, that's allways been my complaint. The normal version is the kiddie pool, and people will never want to learn without a way to train by incriment, not being thrown into the deep end of the pool. It's not a question of giving as many people completion as possible, or 'broadening the demographic'. It's a question of giving both demographics what they want and giving people the tools to bridge their interests into a hardcore setting.

What I propose is a complete -overhaul-, of the difficulty system and it's use and inclusion of rolls in generally, because I do not believe the current is sufficient for anyone who wants any middle ground between 'casual' and 'raider'. It satisfies neither, and no one in between. It is high time, the game had a jumpstart.

I don't think the pool owners are going to do a complete remodel any time soon. In your approval of reducing the deep end's depth below that required for safe diving, have you thought that your swimming partners may now find the pool uninteresting, and leave you with the waders?

Or to dispense with metaphors, why spend such energy playing devil's advocate for the uninterested and unteachable? They have their difficulty mode already.

Partially because I like debate, partially because the hardcore crowd has stormed enough threads on the other side and they get to get a taste of their own medicine, and partially because I like to expose little moments like, say, strawmanning my position, telling me I advocate positions I dont advocate, et cetera.

Apherius

Well , i think the only thing i can do is to do my dps like everytime ... and burn Vicp + Vwgt like everytime and don't learn anything because the boss don't have enough damage and life for teach anything ! ( ok ok ok , please don't quote me for say that i'm selfish ect... please . )

Erraln

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Partially because I like debate, partially because the hardcore crowd has stormed enough threads on the other side and they get to get a taste of their own medicine, and partially because I like to expose little moments like, say, strawmanning my position, telling me I advocate positions I dont advocate, et cetera.

Right. So, how often did you fail on the Overfiend, and was the buildup of adds a deciding factor? Did directing DPS to defeat inbound mages and Harvester support before pushing the boss's HP down help at all?

Was your team frequently unable to focus on one of Lord Warden's Shades while it was targetable? Did their fireball attacks cause frequent wipes?

Were you or your teammates unable to wield a gap closer or ranged attack in the Planar Inhibitor, in order to take out portals in a timely fashion? Shield Charge, Crit Rush, Heavy attack, sprint?

Were you or your teammates unable to notice when Velidreth's Gout of Bile was targeting them? Were you or your teammates unable to step around her Diseased Spores, or did you fail to dump your ultimate to prevent them? Were you or they unable to time dodges properly for her Shadow Spine?

In short, which parts of these encounters do you specifically support dumbing down, and why? And if these mechanics are within your ability to learn and perform, why should others have less interesting dungeons to purchase in the future?

For myself, the change I most directly support is the Inhibitor's. It truly will fail a group if one member does not understand it, and I truly cannot force the game to give me, a ranged DPS well suited for the role, the portal mechanic. At least now there will be a better chance of it being assigned to me.

Mitoice

Tryxus wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?

I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...


Dungeons

• Imperial City Prison
  • Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.
  • Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones.
• White-Gold Tower
  • Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter. 
  • Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
  • Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.

Those are big nerfs, really

No they arent big nerfs.... for the love of god.. I LOVE White gold tower, but not everyone was able to clear out the portals now due to morrowind nerfs to damage and sustain.....Molag Kena is still hard. they just made the pinion boss easier which I agree.

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Ok, then back to the simple question: Why is the normal version of the dungeon not enough for the players you have in mind? Why does the veteran version have to be nerfed?

@Feanor

Because if you want to teach players you need to have a ladder instead of a sheer cliff.

Keep normal the way it is. Slightly nerf Veteran to what it was pre homestead. Have a new difficulty, elite, slightly harder than what is currently available, possibly including penalties to resource management, and finally, add Soul Shriven, the final difficulty that would force players to take on specialized rolls.

That is how I'd do it. The casuals would stay at normal or vet, the people who'd want to learn would run Elite until they could run Soul Shriven, and the difficulty crowd could live in Soul Shriven. In order to incentivize Soul Shriven, I've put fourth having gold drops there, many a time.

Players have individual rungs they can use to train to familiarize themselves with routes, layouts, basic boss mechanics, with these slowly ramping up difficulty to difficulty. That's how I'd do it, provided the holy trinity was actually enforced. That's allways what I've proposed.

The current system is too binary. That's my complaint, that's allways been my complaint. The normal version is the kiddie pool, and people will never want to learn without a way to train by incriment, not being thrown into the deep end of the pool. It's not a question of giving as many people completion as possible, or 'broadening the demographic'. It's a question of giving both demographics what they want and giving people the tools to bridge their interests into a hardcore setting.

What I propose is a complete -overhaul-, of the difficulty system and it's use and inclusion of rolls in generally, because I do not believe the current is sufficient for anyone who wants any middle ground between 'casual' and 'raider'. It satisfies neither, and no one in between. It is high time, the game had a jumpstart.

There aren't enough players for there to be 4 difficulty settings. Queues would be several hours long.

MLGProPlayer

Mitoice wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Has the OP actually read the patch note for vICP and vWGT?

I would hardly call these alterations a nerf ...


Dungeons

• Imperial City Prison
  • Reduced the amount of monsters the Overfiend calls for assistance.
  • Reduced the health of Lord Warden Dusk’s clones.
• White-Gold Tower
  • Two players can now receive the Moth Priest's vision instead of just one throughout the encounter. 
  • Plane Meld Rifts are now easier to target.
  • Plane Meld Rifts now have less health in Veteran mode.

Those are big nerfs, really

No they arent big nerfs.... for the love of god.. I LOVE White gold tower, but not everyone was able to clear out the portals now due to morrowind nerfs to damage and sustain.....Molag Kena is still hard. they just made the pinion boss easier which I agree.

Kena is one of the easiest bosses in the game if you have a damage shield.

Planar Inhibitor was challenging, but also a lot of fun. Now it's going to be a trivial fight.