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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Sorcs and Favoritism
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SirSocke✭✭✭That no one does those things means not that that's not an option. Nowadays no one needs to do those things. And why you need sharpened weapons? Try defending ones, that is a way to rise resistance, too. Sure you lower your offence but rise your survivability, but that's what every other class, especially stam, does to survive...Bosmer stamina nightblade!0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
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Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
@Minalan
Go back and read carefully every word I wrote. I responded to you in very good faith and you are lucky to have thoughts like this out there, rather than the nerf hammer that will otherwise fall upon your class if you continue stonewalling discussion like this.
Sorcs absolutely have resistance under shields. Impen armor--which need not be light to deal damage--as well as streak, pets, negate, and the highest burst damage in the game.
Sorry I don't care about every 'brilliant' nerf sorc idea from every fool who doesn't know the first thing about the game.
So instead I'll make fun:
LOL light armor mitigation with sharpened weapons. Basic math is so hard.
LOL streak is a mitigation tool.
LOL negate as a defensive CD, it's an ultimate.
I feel so lucky!
@Minalan
Then you are beneath consideration, and everyone crying for sorc nerfs has nothing to fear from you.
/thread.
EDIT: Oh and by the way
1. Sharpened weapons can be mitigated with heavy armor or points in the resistance CP star for Light Armor.
2. Streak mitigates damage by removing you from it and stunning your attacker, similar to roll dodge but much more effective.
3. Negate is absolutely a valid defense, as is Veil of Blades for nightblades. Their status as ultimates does not diminish that fact.
If you're putting points into light armor, you haven't done any of the math...
Gap closers go twice as far as streak.
Learn the damn game already.
If you can't escape with streak you are the real potatoe here. You are normally some meters away from your enemy. Even if he gap closes to you he will be stunned, leaving you space for the next streak, if you leave the range of a gap closer once, no one will be able to kill you, just streak, dark deal, and streak again, then wait 4 seconds after the 6th streak, DD 2-3 times eland keep on streaking.
No one will be able to catch you as a sorc as long as you play smart and lich is indeed set that contributes to this problem.1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
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And who can reasonably be expected to run Major Breach without having to sacrifice for it?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
You just said that as magsorc you're ignoring half of the game rules.
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
Btw major ward and major resolve from lightning form mitigates sharpened twohander, sorc even have minor versions of those buffs with bound armor so he can buff himself from zero to 6.3k resists while 160CP LA isn't zero, it's 13k resists, lets combine them...aaaaaand 19.3k resist, which is equal to 5HA+2LA
No resists at all and zero(only 5?meh) class-specific healing sources, yeah, can't survive at all
Sharpened and major breach gets rid of both.
Heavy armor still has plenty left. Throw on block, major mending, and vigor, troll king, 3K impen, and rally and your average stam player is doing fine.
And who the heck runs bound armor in PVP? Who puts points into light armor CP? Please stop with the impossible scenarios.
This thread has gone full potato.
Stamblades (who let's be honest, deserve it. Let them have this), 1h/shield builds (locked into that weapon). Stamplars get the Minor version. It's late, but point is Minor Breach isn't a constant thing. While some people might have it, others won't.
I suppose someone could run the Ele Drain from Destro, but I rarely see anyone do that.
As for bound armor, last I checked it still has a place in some full magicka setups.
Streak still functions when you press the button. CC -> Streak away. Or just Streak through someoneGap closers go twice as far as streak.
And... gap closers don't function when you press one button? Come on man.
Even without major breach, you're talking about having 5-6K armor with lightning form up. Stam guys are running 25-30K in heavy sword and board setups.
I'm right here, your argument is weak.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
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And who can reasonably be expected to run Major Breach without having to sacrifice for it?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
You just said that as magsorc you're ignoring half of the game rules.
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
Btw major ward and major resolve from lightning form mitigates sharpened twohander, sorc even have minor versions of those buffs with bound armor so he can buff himself from zero to 6.3k resists while 160CP LA isn't zero, it's 13k resists, lets combine them...aaaaaand 19.3k resist, which is equal to 5HA+2LA
No resists at all and zero(only 5?meh) class-specific healing sources, yeah, can't survive at all
Sharpened and major breach gets rid of both.
Heavy armor still has plenty left. Throw on block, major mending, and vigor, troll king, 3K impen, and rally and your average stam player is doing fine.
And who the heck runs bound armor in PVP? Who puts points into light armor CP? Please stop with the impossible scenarios.
This thread has gone full potato.
Stamblades (who let's be honest, deserve it. Let them have this), 1h/shield builds (locked into that weapon). Stamplars get the Minor version. It's late, but point is Minor Breach isn't a constant thing. While some people might have it, others won't.
I suppose someone could run the Ele Drain from Destro, but I rarely see anyone do that.
As for bound armor, last I checked it still has a place in some full magicka setups.
Streak still functions when you press the button. CC -> Streak away. Or just Streak through someoneGap closers go twice as far as streak.
And... gap closers don't function when you press one button? Come on man.
Even without major breach, you're talking about having 5-6K armor with lightning form up. Stam guys are running 25-30K in heavy sword and board setups.
I'm right here, your argument is weak.
When someone in 1h+S kills you on a sorc you shouldn't argue in this thread. The damage output of those builds is laughably small compared to sorcs burst with the same survivability in 1v1.
And yes 4 gap closer in this game don't work reliably. Invasion, crit rush, toppling charge, chains. In any surface with a bit of altitude the gap closer won't begin or you fall through the map leaving you helpless - - - - > free kill
And 1 not working gap closer is enough to become unreachable for anyone2 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭
Don't forget the part where you can CC your opponent and then streak away, or streak through them. Also, this isn't a comparison to entirely other classes/builds/setups. I maintain I'm not arguing with you, merely adding in some additional detail.
And who can reasonably be expected to run Major Breach without having to sacrifice for it?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
You just said that as magsorc you're ignoring half of the game rules.
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
Btw major ward and major resolve from lightning form mitigates sharpened twohander, sorc even have minor versions of those buffs with bound armor so he can buff himself from zero to 6.3k resists while 160CP LA isn't zero, it's 13k resists, lets combine them...aaaaaand 19.3k resist, which is equal to 5HA+2LA
No resists at all and zero(only 5?meh) class-specific healing sources, yeah, can't survive at all
Sharpened and major breach gets rid of both.
Heavy armor still has plenty left. Throw on block, major mending, and vigor, troll king, 3K impen, and rally and your average stam player is doing fine.
And who the heck runs bound armor in PVP? Who puts points into light armor CP? Please stop with the impossible scenarios.
This thread has gone full potato.
Stamblades (who let's be honest, deserve it. Let them have this), 1h/shield builds (locked into that weapon). Stamplars get the Minor version. It's late, but point is Minor Breach isn't a constant thing. While some people might have it, others won't.
I suppose someone could run the Ele Drain from Destro, but I rarely see anyone do that.
As for bound armor, last I checked it still has a place in some full magicka setups.
Streak still functions when you press the button. CC -> Streak away. Or just Streak through someoneGap closers go twice as far as streak.
And... gap closers don't function when you press one button? Come on man.
Even without major breach, you're talking about having 5-6K armor with lightning form up. Stam guys are running 25-30K in heavy sword and board setups.
I'm right here, your argument is weak.
I'll have 5k armor against some people, 10k against others, and so on and so forth. Sounds about fair. Yes, this would be a small nerf. Sorcs might have to run a bit of impen or something.
I'm not arguing against that armor pen might be a bit too easy to come by while armor res is a bit too difficult for sorcs to come by, neither am I saying that this is NOT a nerf to sorcs. I also said that I am completely fine with shields in their current state. This was directed at those who think shields are too much (I also said that in my OP). Heck, I main sorc. It was the first of two characters I made when I first joined, ~3months after launch.
You started off saying that sorcs had no armor under shields. You were incorrect. I'm perfectly fine with you moving the goalposts, but at least make an attempt to be civil about it. You've brought up some points I'd totally forgotten, which is fine - the goal of this was to fully understand the impact of the suggestion - but the tone of your posts is just godawful.
@LegendaryMage Did a lovely job with his post. Which, by the way, I only noticed when I went back to read it @.@ Sorry about that Mr. Mage. Late here, etc etc, trying to study at the same time, apologies and so forth. I did make a post a while back on nerfing Pirate's skeleton (feel free to check my posting history, it's in there somewhere). To you as well - I've no problem with the current incarnation, and do agree with your points. I personally have never used pirate skeleton or necropotence, though I do use Lich.
I do feel that looking into crit vs. shields is worth another look, though. Crit is a not-insignificant/not-lacking in importance stat in the game. Without all the borked sets, does it work? Yes. Heaven forbid one tires to get a civil discussion going, though xD Like crit vs. shields and different builds running major breach .vs those that don't. The former is a total negation of a game mechanic, whereas the second is a little more involved. I dislike a total negation of a mechanic purely because...heck, I can't recall if the devs even said why they made shields uncrittable. Have they?
You also seem to have totally ignored one of my earlier posts about adjusting pen effecting the incoming extra crit damage.
Yet again - sorc main here who thinks shields are fine, merely wondering about the possible impacts of the suggestion.
Edited by Tonturri on May 12, 2017 5:45AM0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I just think the crit idea won't float because I think zos has the view that different kinds of attacks and stats should be strong vs some defences, weak to others...
Blocking stops the cc effect, but some abilities can't be blocked.
Dodging stops all damage and gives distance, but some abilities can't be dodged.
Penetration counters high armour
High crit modifiers counter impen
Shields counter crit -but not cc.
I think they just don't want one stat to rule them all (pen and crit).. I mean sharpened is already commonly viewed as bis even though so many complain vs shields.
Another downside would be the nail in the light-armour coffin. People already complain about how much heavy is used - do we really want to push the last bastion (pun intended) of light armour use over to the heavy camp?
At the end of the day, shields are the hard counter to crit and penetration, but so many people run high penetration and crit builds to counter the heavy armour meta, and complain about shields...
Switching to high base damage/proc sets instead will be a lot more effective vs shields, but the heavy armour complaints would be back...
Edited by Biro123 on May 12, 2017 6:41AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This thread gets more and more hilarious by the minute. So now the fabled Sorcs have great mitigation when wearing light Armour too. Giving up 2 bar slots for 1320 Spell and physical resistance is not a good trade off. It's why you see bound armaments only on builds that try to stack max Magicka. You go for the 8% bonus, not for the 1320 resistances. With every bar slot you give up your options become less. If you run pets too you're essentially left with 2 open bar slots.
Also you're forgetting not everyone is playing CP campaigns. Try out Azura and see how absolutely impossible balancing CP campaigns vs no CP campaigns is. In no CP the only thing that stands between you and instant death is your shield as a Sorc.
I don't think any Sorc is liking shield stacking. But just as with the clunky overload we have to use what we have. Give us something different which can keep us alive through burst and we're as happy as you.
@Minalan
Thank you!Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
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Its the counter though... especially since the crit nerf didn't reduce their effectiveness against shields.. but people just stopped using them so much, stacked pen instead with stuff like spriggans/spinners then complained shields op....
I'm sorry but if people were building to counter them and it still wasn't enough then I'd take the complaints more seriously. I don't see this as being any different to all those 'unkillable heavy armour' threads a while back... back when people hadn't adjusted to it and hardly had any pen..
Edited by Biro123 on May 12, 2017 8:26AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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Yea people build to kill the other 7/8 builds who were forced to go heavy the didn't have the burst to kill sorcs.
Its the counter though... especially since the crit nerf didn't reduce their effectiveness against shields.. but people just stopped using them so much, stacked pen instead with stuff like spriggans/spinners then complained shields op....
I'm sorry but if people were building to counter them and it still wasn't enough then I'd take the complaints more seriously. I don't see this as being any different to all those 'unkillable heavy armour' threads a while back... back when people hadn't adjusted to it and hardly had any pen..
I know your right its the best counter to sorc shields I just hate how cancerous they are. Just change them to only deal damage to NPC and be done with it ESO be better off.That won't happened that's all people are going to use next patch every stam build 5 bone pirate 5 viper 2 tremor,Selene or veli.Stam meta.
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Aquanova✭✭✭✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.NA/PC0 -
Aquanova✭✭✭✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
If shields were to scale of maxhealth you´d have to give sorcs the same means of selfhealing available to magica nightblades, magica templars and dks.
Harness IS the problem about sorc shieldstacking because the resources return proccs also when hardened ward is damaged basically guaranteeing a full return on every harness cast - which is why as a magica character you can not drive a sorc out of resources ever.
Also did you read the post? I DONT WANT TO CHANGE HARNESS. It just should not stack with hardened ward. Use hardened or harness. Done. Shieldstacking fixed because there is no stacking anymore.
If we were to delve deeper into the topic the real problem is vampirism + minor+major protection + healing ward + another shield. But i guess that´s such a rare case to happen that it´s not thaaat problematic.
You do have healing. Twilight Matriarch and surge. Are they on par with CB or BoL or Funnel health? I think so.NA/PC1 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
I'm running dual bar S&B LA 5x1x1 magDK without CP investments into light armour mastery, but with 2.5k critresist and without shields except igneous, it's harder without being mobile, but i don't really feels like everyone can wipe me in second.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
You just said that as magsorc you're ignoring half of the game rules.
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
Btw major ward and major resolve from lightning form mitigates sharpened twohander, sorc even have minor versions of those buffs with bound armor so he can buff himself from zero to 6.3k resists while 160CP LA isn't zero, it's 13k resists, lets combine them...aaaaaand 19.3k resist, which is equal to 5HA+2LA
No resists at all and zero(only 5?meh) class-specific healing sources, yeah, can't survive at all
Sharpened and major breach gets rid of both.
Heavy armor still has plenty left. Throw on block, major mending, and vigor, troll king, 3K impen, and rally and your average stam player is doing fine.
And who the heck runs bound armor in PVP? Who puts points into light armor CP? Please stop with the impossible scenarios.
This thread has gone full potato.Edited by Sugaroverdose on May 12, 2017 3:40PM0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.
I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Every other class has their own native defensive mechanics that are parallels to Hardened Ward. Primarily, they got potent heals. Which can be fired off under harness. DKs have a reflect and big heals, templars have a purge and big heals, and nbs have a cloak and steady heals. All of these can be 'stacked' with the shield. None of those other classes "just" use harness of dampened.
You fundamentally do not understand how sorcerer works relative to these other classes.3 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.
Cloak doesn't work and reflect only really works against mag blades now,Force pulse and curse can't be reflected and only frags can be reflected even than it only works against 4 projectiles. Also Dk pretty much no longer have major mending next patch so they will no longer have big heals.What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.
I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Every other class has their own native defensive mechanics that are parallels to Hardened Ward. Primarily, they got potent heals. Which can be fired off under harness. DKs have a reflect and big heals, templars have a purge and big heals, and nbs have a cloak and steady heals. All of these can be 'stacked' with the shield. None of those other classes "just" use harness of dampened.
You fundamentally do not understand how sorcerer works relative to these other classes.
Edited by KingJ on May 12, 2017 3:28PM0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
#But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.
Cloak doesn't work and reflect only really works against mag blades now,Force pulse and curse can't be reflected and only frags can be reflected even than it only works against 4 projectiles. Also Dk pretty much no longer have major mending next patch so they will no longer have big heals.What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.
I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Every other class has their own native defensive mechanics that are parallels to Hardened Ward. Primarily, they got potent heals. Which can be fired off under harness. DKs have a reflect and big heals, templars have a purge and big heals, and nbs have a cloak and steady heals. All of these can be 'stacked' with the shield. None of those other classes "just" use harness of dampened.
You fundamentally do not understand how sorcerer works relative to these other classes.
I can't agree with this. Its assuming all sorcs use CS/Force pulse.
I run a DW sorc with frags double-barred for more procs. I have 2 non-execute damaging abilities. One can only be used every 3 seconds - and the other - the harder hitting one - is completely negated by cloak and ANY reflect, whether from wings, s+b ulti, eclipse, new warden reflects, defensive posture.. A magblade using a mix of cloak and harness is VERY hard for me to damage.
I think cloak is an odd one. People often only see the times it didn't work - like when the curse still hits - not realising it just saved them from a 16k frag..
Edited by Biro123 on May 12, 2017 4:27PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭EDIT: Oh and by the way
1. Sharpened weapons can be mitigated with heavy armor or points in the resistance CP star for Light Armor.
2. Streak mitigates damage by removing you from it and stunning your attacker, similar to roll dodge but much more effective.
3. Negate is absolutely a valid defense, as is Veil of Blades for nightblades. Their status as ultimates does not diminish that fact.
Bro in #2 I would have stated Ball of Lightning being a mitigation tool (and it is)0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Cloak doesn't work and reflect only really works against mag blades now,Force pulse and curse can't be reflected and only frags can be reflected even than it only works against 4 projectiles. Also Dk pretty much no longer have major mending next patch so they will no longer have big heals.
Both those statements are ridiculous, and are irrelevant to my arguement. Cloak works perfectly fine when I use it most of the time, and theres plenty of projectiles bouncing around that reflect is still pretty damn good. Itll be even better when the heavy armor block meta is dead and you cant just face tank everything. Also, you don't need mending for big heals. Burning embers is ridiculously strong with or without it.
If were talking specifically sorc vs dk, no dk is gonna die to just force pulse and curse unless they are terrible.
E: And all of this is irrelevant to my point that other classes can layer their native defenses with harness. Why should sorc be the only one not allowed to do that?Edited by CyrusArya on May 12, 2017 5:13PM0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭What does the average Twilight Matriarch heal tick for in cyrodiil?Edited by Malamar1229 on May 12, 2017 5:21PM0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »What does the average Twilight Matriarch heal tick for in cyrodiil?
You mean when it's not stuck in a wall or lag frozen?1 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »What does the average Twilight Matriarch heal tick for in cyrodiil?
You mean when it's not stuck in a wall or lag frozen?
Unless something has changed, when I was using it a while back for testing...that heal hit me regardless where the pet was. It seemed like the pet being a mile away or in a wall was just a visual thing, separate from the fact I had a pet summoned that "should be" on my butt at all times. in other words, the heal didn't have a range on it because the game knows there is a pet summoned that should be on my tail.
Again, maybe thats changed. But if your Matriarch is stuck in a wall or you dont see but know its summoned...should still receive that heal.Edited by Malamar1229 on May 12, 2017 5:25PM2 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
#But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.
Cloak doesn't work and reflect only really works against mag blades now,Force pulse and curse can't be reflected and only frags can be reflected even than it only works against 4 projectiles. Also Dk pretty much no longer have major mending next patch so they will no longer have big heals.What's wrong with just using harness or dampened? Answer....nothing.
I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Every other class has their own native defensive mechanics that are parallels to Hardened Ward. Primarily, they got potent heals. Which can be fired off under harness. DKs have a reflect and big heals, templars have a purge and big heals, and nbs have a cloak and steady heals. All of these can be 'stacked' with the shield. None of those other classes "just" use harness of dampened.
You fundamentally do not understand how sorcerer works relative to these other classes.
I can't agree with this. Its assuming all sorcs use CS/Force pulse.
I run a DW sorc with frags double-barred for more procs. I have 2 non-execute damaging abilities. One can only be used every 3 seconds - and the other - the harder hitting one - is completely negated by cloak and ANY reflect, whether from wings, s+b ulti, eclipse, new warden reflects, defensive posture.. A magblade using a mix of cloak and harness is VERY hard for me to damage.
I think cloak is an odd one. People often only see the times it didn't work - like when the curse still hits - not realising it just saved them from a 16k frag..
Most of the time cloak doesn't work. How do I know? It used to be a reliable skillSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cloak doesn't work and reflect only really works against mag blades now,Force pulse and curse can't be reflected and only frags can be reflected even than it only works against 4 projectiles. Also Dk pretty much no longer have major mending next patch so they will no longer have big heals.
Both those statements are ridiculous, and are irrelevant to my arguement. Cloak works perfectly fine when I use it most of the time, and theres plenty of projectiles bouncing around that reflect is still pretty damn good. Itll be even better when the heavy armor block meta is dead and you cant just face tank everything. Also, you don't need mending for big heals. Burning embers is ridiculously strong with or without it.
If were talking specifically sorc vs dk, no dk is gonna die to just force pulse and curse unless they are terrible.
E: And all of this is irrelevant to my point that other classes can layer their native defenses with harness. Why should sorc be the only one not allowed to do that?
Role playing PvE in a PvP discussion is irrelevant.Edited by Xvorg on May 12, 2017 6:14PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Elevenstorm✭✭✭Where's the abilities and consumables that remove shields? I would like to see a poison that removes all shields on proc and does not allow you to reapply a shield for 3 seconds.2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Elevenstorm wrote: »Where's the abilities and consumables that remove shields? I would like to see a poison that removes all shields on proc and does not allow you to reapply a shield for 3 seconds.
You won't need it. Knight slayer plus oblivion enchant plus infused and torug's pact. Two shot Sorcs through their shields for fun and profit.
1 -
altemriel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭but, the secret waz revealtz
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343780/how-to-farm-khajiit-skooma-bubbler-design
khajiit is happy now
0
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