Sorcs and Favoritism

Vosital

Every single patch, we expect some kind of nerfs or adjustments to the overtuned class that is the Sorcerer in this game. Yet every single time, they get the best of the patch notes. The gap between Mag Sorcs and everybody else just gets more and more ridiculous every time.

Take last patch for example. Mag Sorcs were god tier in PvP and PvE. What happened? A raw 8% damage increase and a better Haunting Curse.

This patch? Almost every aspect of the game is getting toned down and nerfed, except Sorcs and shields.

There is a major problem in this game when a full light armor Sorc in Lich can spam shield indefinitely and be harder to kill than any kind of heavy armor tank. There is no reason to play anything else in PvP. You do the most damage, are the most mobile, and are the hardest to kill. In PvE you outparse everyone by a huge margin.

We get it Zenimax, this class is your favorite and they need to be vastly superior to every other class in the game in every aspect of the game. But this is just getting ridiculous. It is so unprofessional for this kind of ridiculous favoritism to exist by a major company.

Ashnunn

Shields will cost more - moving points over to regen will take away from max magicka = reduced shield size.

Shield spamming, while still possible, will be much harder

Ivan04

Just here to agree and say that sorcs certainly need some balancing love.

Lieblingsjunge

I agree with Sorcs, but this is not only a mSorc issue. Next patch Stamsorc will continue to be the no.1 1vx/2vX/smallscale class in addition to mSorcs. Their kit leaves them having no cons.
And with the change to roots, you won't lock a Sorc down.

eserras7b16_ESO

I agree sorcerers are way over at the moment and after this patch it'll be even more. I can't understand the moove.

Ragnaroek93

I'm 95% sure that they will nerf sorc in the coming PTS patches.

Edziu

sorceresr never got big nerf like other classes, example: magdk since game start was godmode, then nerf to the ground and unplayalbe for over year, templar have buff an nerf but big nerfs very hurting like now stamplar is unplayable in vpe since few months and now more unplayable, nb similiar, once was good and then now until now and nb is stil worst class for dps while sorc was damn never that down with nerf like other classes and this is balance? while very other class was up and at the bottom sorc was never at bottom, only as average or on top

Izaki

Wait what? Where are you getting the fact that Magicka Sorcs were "god tier" in One Tamriel? This was most definitely not the case. Magicka Templars and DKs were better back then. Now? Magicka Sorcs are still worse than DKs. Pets Sorcs are the strongest class at the moment in AOE and Cleave damage, DKs still outparse them in single target (and single target is more important). Just because you see the highest parses on YT from Pet Sorcs, doesn't mean they are the best. There are plenty of numbers you don't see.

In PvP, as far as shields go, go make a Sorc (cause you obviously don't play one), and shield stack while there are 4 people beating on you. You'll see that you'll vaporise in a matter of seconds if you don't start to kite and play skillfully (and your magicka will vanish too). Shields are strong in 1v1. The more people there are, the worse they get. The cost of shields is already pretty high (roughly 3k per shield on average) and you have to stack 2 or 3 of them every 6 seconds. In Morrowind? Shields will cost 16% more magicka. Try spamming that while maintaining the same damage output as you have now. You won't. The Sorc survivability doesn't come so much from shield stacking, but from Streak for kiting and repositionning, while Healing Ward heals you back to full health, and at that point you're ready to re-engage. Daedric Mines also play a huge part in Sorcs' ability to move, kite and survive. Then there's obviously Pirate Skeleton which was a mistake since the start. Fact is: Sorcs don't have a viable defensive mechanic aside from running away and shield stacking (cause they are the only class with a class shield). Do I like that mechanic? No I ***ing hate it. Is it OP? In certain situations it is, in others its not, including outnumbered situations.

So you provide absolutely no valid arguments about the fact that Magicka Sorcs or Shields are OP.

Izaki

Edziu wrote: »

sorceresr never got big nerf like other classes, example: magdk since game start was godmode, then nerf to the ground and unplayalbe for over year, templar have buff an nerf but big nerfs very hurting like now stamplar is unplayable in vpe since few months and now more unplayable, nb similiar, once was good and then now until now and nb is stil worst class for dps while sorc was damn never that down with nerf like other classes and this is balance? while very other class was up and at the bottom sorc was never at bottom, only as average or on top

Because Sorc was never over the top. It was always average and sometimes almost on top.

Jsmalls

It's not a direct Nerf but the CP changes do hit damage shields effectiveness. There is another offense and defensive star in Master of arms and ironclad which just increases the number of defensive stars damage shield users have to split their points between (now Hardy, ele defender, bastion, ironclad and resistant)

Also with the new scaling of CP it may actually be worth it to now to put 10 to 20 points into shattering blows due to the large increase you will see in the front load of stars.

Overall damage shields will be less effective than they are on live against players who know how to use their offensive CP stars correctly.

But I guess this was just too in-depth for anyone to see... So yeah sure Nerf Sorcs

olsborg

Ashnunn wrote: »

Shields will cost more - moving points over to regen will take away from max magicka = reduced shield size.

Shield spamming, while still possible, will be much harder

But they didnt change the cost of the actual shields, they did that to vigor and every stamina skill and they nerfed major mending for both dk and templar(took it away).

Theres such a glaring balance issue between healing and damage shields....zos needs to start thinking.

Izaki

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

I agree with Sorcs, but this is not only a mSorc issue. Next patch Stamsorc will continue to be the no.1 1vx/2vX/smallscale class in addition to mSorcs. Their kit leaves them having no cons.
And with the change to roots, you won't lock a Sorc down.

Yeah, I think that as a Stam Sorc next patch, you're either gonna have to Dark Deal a million times more than you do now (and you already have to LoS and Dark Deal like mad). At this point you're going to have tiny windows for dealing damage. The loss of cost reduction CP is a big hit to the heavy armor stam sorc. Just like it is a huge hit to the shield stacking magicka sorc. Go on PTS and test things before saying that Sorcs have no cons.

Drdeath20

Name 1 buff templars got?

Only nerfs.

Losing blinding flashes to radiant destruction might be the only buff.

The only reason 1t was a templar buff was because heavy armor became viable then.

Izaki

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Name 1 buff templars got?

Only nerfs.

Losing blinding flashes to radiant destruction might be the only buff.

The only reason 1t was a templar buff was because heavy armor became viable then.

They didn't get buffs. They were just the best in PvE DPS.

Izaki

olsborg wrote: »

Ashnunn wrote: »

Shields will cost more - moving points over to regen will take away from max magicka = reduced shield size.

Shield spamming, while still possible, will be much harder

But they didnt change the cost of the actual shields, they did that to vigor and every stamina skill and they nerfed major mending for both dk and templar(took it away).

Theres such a glaring balance issue between healing and damage shields....zos needs to start thinking.

Shields are pretty expensive already on live.

Beardimus

I presume you didn't play a MagSorc in 2016? Stamina had their day.

All Mag classes got the 8%, Sorc just got the extra curse in U13, and scamp pulses hardly enough to warrant the QQ. Dual Wield sorcs got a NERF, Overload sorc's got a NERF - or did you miss those?

People that couldn't kill Sorcs in 2016 still cant is all. And most decent players Whack-A-Mole with Sorcs as they always did since the Wards got nerfed to 6 secs.

Try active defence with the sustain changes in U14 and you'll see what I mean. if you are warding you aint attacking and ur burning Magika...

Edziu

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

sorceresr never got big nerf like other classes, example: magdk since game start was godmode, then nerf to the ground and unplayalbe for over year, templar have buff an nerf but big nerfs very hurting like now stamplar is unplayable in vpe since few months and now more unplayable, nb similiar, once was good and then now until now and nb is stil worst class for dps while sorc was damn never that down with nerf like other classes and this is balance? while very other class was up and at the bottom sorc was never at bottom, only as average or on top

Because Sorc was never over the top. It was always average and sometimes almost on top.

yeah, he was never on bottom and was sometime on top and mostly just as average while every other class was for few patches on bottom, as I wrote, mag dk was unplayabe over year, nb was good at 1 patch and now what? now we have nb who is from last few patches on bottom in every espect in pve, mayb vMA can be exception but its doesnt matter as for solo pve and we have stamplar who whill struggle more in pve than in last few patches like nb but stamplar is more unplayabe.

I have seen how sorc awlays always was playable on on not bad spot if not on very good spot while very other class had their time with struggle to just play in anything, sorc had never this problem

Minalan

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Name 1 buff templars got?

Only nerfs.

Losing blinding flashes to radiant destruction might be the only buff.

The only reason 1t was a templar buff was because heavy armor became viable then.

They didn't get buffs. They were just the best in PvE DPS.

Templar can permanently shut a sorc down this coming patch. There's no penalty for reapplying it over and over again, and the sorc can't just CC break to get rid of it.

I'm sure you can guess what I'm talking about.

bubbygink

Jsmalls wrote: »

It's not a direct Nerf but the CP changes do hit damage shields effectiveness. There is another offense and defensive star in Master of arms and ironclad which just increases the number of defensive stars damage shield users have to split their points between (now Hardy, ele defender, bastion, ironclad and resistant)

Also with the new scaling of CP it may actually be worth it to now to put 10 to 20 points into shattering blows due to the large increase you will see in the front load of stars.

Overall damage shields will be less effective than they are on live against players who know how to use their offensive CP stars correctly.

But I guess this was just too in-depth for anyone to see... So yeah sure Nerf Sorcs

Nobody means that Sorcs literally werent nerfed in anyway at all. A 10 year old can see that the CP changes nerf mag sorc along with every other class. The issue is that every other class was nerfed directly very hard.

I'm a PvPer so I think of it this way - Battlegrounds are going to be no CP so the CP changes aren't even relevant. Mag and stam sorcs can just run whatever it is they run in Azuras currently or ran during no-CP week and they're totally fine because they had no changes. All the other classes? Hell no, all their sustain has been nerfed directly and it's back to the drawing board to build for more sustain and less damage. Therefore, CLEARLY sorcs were untouched for battlegrounds while all other classes were heavily nerfed.

For PvE, there is no shieldstacking (AFAIK, again I PvP) and stuff like shattering blows is irrelevant. So the CP changes will effect everyone evenly. Yet again, mag sorcs, whose DPS is already clearly top, didn't have a direct nerf. So while CP changes effect everyone, sorcs are the only ones who don't also have to account for other nerfs AND they were already firmly on top.

And finally, back to PvP for a moment, stam sorc has the best sustain in the game bar none. These stam sorcs in PvP run around with 600 regen and sustain infinitely. They are literally the poster child for "sustain has gotten out of hand." Yet entirely inexplicably dark deal was not nerfed. This is ludicrous and is absolutely in no way justifiable.

Jsmalls

Minalan wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Name 1 buff templars got?

Only nerfs.

Losing blinding flashes to radiant destruction might be the only buff.

The only reason 1t was a templar buff was because heavy armor became viable then.

They didn't get buffs. They were just the best in PvE DPS.

Templar can permanently shut a sorc down this coming patch. There's no penalty for reapplying it over and over again, and the sorc can't just CC break to get rid of it.

I'm sure you can guess what I'm talking about.

Yeah I definitely saw a problem with this as well. The main question is can it be applied on CC immune targets. If so it may not be worth slotting on the Templars side of things. It'll last 3.5 seconds and grant CC immunity, mean we'll need to time our burst within that 4.5 second window where we should be immune to a new one. If this skill can be placed on CC immune targets, then GG, no reason to run a build the uses projectiles. But I don't think Zos is that blatantly ignorant.

Smajestic

I can't speak about all class but now in PVE Raid, sorcerers have the big issue with magicka, Templar, DK, NB have less problem with magicka sustain. It will be worst in the next page.
So in PVE (without test), sorcerers will continue to have maybe the best dps, but no more in long fight (more than 2 minutes).

The magicka sustain for sorcerers in PVE will be really hard

Cinbri

Guys, lets try new balance at least for one week and judge after. There is tons of invisible changes that might seriously affect balance.

Paraflex

I'd image with how much people are upset about sorcs well see some nerfs on the PTS

Ashamray

Eclispse is sometning that will force light armor users to renew and stack their shields more and more. Or they will just use this 3.5 sec to restore magicka with staff attack or they'll spam Force Pulse into you... At least they have options.
I'm more curious about another morph. It's now a new Curse v.2. Should check its damage and cost though - can still be useless.

Vosital

Paraflex wrote: »

I'd image with how much people are upset about sorcs well see some nerfs on the PTS

You'd think so, but every time PTS Cycle rolls around, everyone is like "uhh.. can you maybe balance the game so PvP is not 90% Sorcs and Trials don't consist of 8 Sorcs 1 DK for the DPS?"

And somehow Sorcs never get nerfed, and they get the most benefit from the patch.

It is like this every. single. time.

Lexxypwns

Ashnunn wrote: »

Shields will cost more - moving points over to regen will take away from max magicka = reduced shield size.

Shield spamming, while still possible, will be much harder

Except mag sorc can currently sustain while wearing all damage gear. Next patch we'll probably need to add some regen through gear, but will still be pretty easy to sustain.

Stamden

There is so much garbage that makes Sorcs good too that they need to change.
-Shields need to be crittable
-Bastion needs to be removed
-Pirate skeleton needs real nerfs
-Lich, Amberplasm, Synablade all need to be nerfed
-There needs to be a debuff to reduce shield effectiveness

Even with all that, Sorcs would still be far and away the best PvP class. But at the very least the gap would be closer.

LiquidPony

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Wait what? Where are you getting the fact that Magicka Sorcs were "god tier" in One Tamriel? This was most definitely not the case. Magicka Templars and DKs were better back then. Now? Magicka Sorcs are still worse than DKs. Pets Sorcs are the strongest class at the moment in AOE and Cleave damage, DKs still outparse them in single target (and single target is more important). Just because you see the highest parses on YT from Pet Sorcs, doesn't mean they are the best. There are plenty of numbers you don't see.

In PvP, as far as shields go, go make a Sorc (cause you obviously don't play one), and shield stack while there are 4 people beating on you. You'll see that you'll vaporise in a matter of seconds if you don't start to kite and play skillfully (and your magicka will vanish too). Shields are strong in 1v1. The more people there are, the worse they get. The cost of shields is already pretty high (roughly 3k per shield on average) and you have to stack 2 or 3 of them every 6 seconds. In Morrowind? Shields will cost 16% more magicka. Try spamming that while maintaining the same damage output as you have now. You won't. The Sorc survivability doesn't come so much from shield stacking, but from Streak for kiting and repositionning, while Healing Ward heals you back to full health, and at that point you're ready to re-engage. Daedric Mines also play a huge part in Sorcs' ability to move, kite and survive. Then there's obviously Pirate Skeleton which was a mistake since the start. Fact is: Sorcs don't have a viable defensive mechanic aside from running away and shield stacking (cause they are the only class with a class shield). Do I like that mechanic? No I ***ing hate it. Is it OP? In certain situations it is, in others its not, including outnumbered situations.

So you provide absolutely no valid arguments about the fact that Magicka Sorcs or Shields are OP.

@IzakiBrotherSs

Single-target is more important? Since when? I look at the Trials leaderboards and I see 4-6 magsorcs in every top group. If magDKs have better single-target DPS and single-target is the most important parse, why are the top Trials groups running so many magsorcs?

Just some quick match on the current vMoL leaderboards, with the assumption that both tanks are DKs and both healers are Templars, we've got the following class composition for leaderboard raid DPS:

271 sorcs (49.5%)
141 DKs (25.7%)
86 templars (15.7%)
50 nightblades (9.1%)

usmcjdking

Ashnunn wrote: »

Shields will cost more - moving points over to regen will take away from max magicka = reduced shield size.

Shield spamming, while still possible, will be much harder

The issue isn't the rate at which you need to spam shields.

The issue is the amount of resources it takes to get through a shield. Blocking has the same issue as shields do.

Xsorus

Its really simple

Protection doesn't need to work against Shields.

Increase Shield Cost

Those two changes would fix a lot of issues.

clocksstoppe

Ashnunn wrote: »

Shields will cost more

How is this a relevant argument when literally everything will cost more? Nothing changes.

Also i'd like to know what "points" you are moving from magicka to magicka regen? What are these mythical points?