Sorcs and Favoritism

BohnT

Biro123 wrote: »

I can't see them nerfing shields any more than they have, to be honest.. People will realise once they get used to Morrowind - but look at the indirect shield nerfs they have already:

Very easy to get Shattering Blows - 20% nerf
Waste of points to go over 50cp in Bastion - 5% nerf
or
PVP moving to NOCP - 20%? nerf to max mag = a significant nerf to base shield strength, + No Bastion and No Shattering blows (which compared to live setups = around a 20% nerf)

Loss of Pirate Skelly for shield users - 30% nerf

Building for recov = less max mag = smaller shields.

Smaller shields = needeing to re-apply them more often = needing even more recov = even smaller shields.

More stuff that does damage through shields.

Honestly, I'm starting to worry about the viability of shields...


Hard to know for sure, but overall I'm looking at what are now the strongest shield setups on live being at least 60% weaker in Morrowind.

But people think they haven't been nerfed...

You know that you can simply put the points you now can save with bastion can be used for mor damage reduction that applies to shields?
Sustain was hit for every class, you forget that attacks drain resources too and sprinting to be able to use a gap closer or the break free after the sorc streaks the first time? A sorc will face less pressure as other classes have to look for their resources too.
A sorc seems to forget that any build that attacks the sorc has to be aware of a burst attempt and needs resources to survive this. Sorcs have not been nerfed more than any other class in fact they were nerfed less.
No change to dark deal (.2 sec more cast time is laughable)
Healing was reduced to 15% while bastion was left at 25%
Crazy increase for the heal debuff cp which mainly affects non shield builds as they face this penalty all the time. Shields aren't affected in any way by this.
To be fair there was a nerf to frags.

For other classes their main resource regain abilities got nerfed by a lot.
Nb flat nerf of more than 70% and no way to exchange one stat for another with a good exchange rate
Stamdk igneous got nerfed by more than 50% for certain builds
Battleroar was also nerfed to be no weaker than a tripot

There are reasons why there are so many posts about this topic

Biro123

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

BohnT

Biro123 wrote: »

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

And that is a huge problem as a sorc can easily get out of combat with streak and encase. A sorc has always the chance to streak away and restore his resources faster than any other class can because they need to be in combat so the sorc is always in a better spot once he enters the battle again. This is what is very broken.
The whole sorc loadout is based around this. Shields protect you even when you attack or when you streak away, DD let's you regain massive resources without needing to be in combat. Defensive rune and streak drain even more resources of an enemy who tries to catch you while your burst will still be available due to frags proc, echo of curse and mage's wrath.
That is simply too strong and needs to be changed.
Nb for example has in theory great tools to leave a fight but the nb leaves combat and needs much longer to be able to attack again due to missing resources

Witar

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

And that is a huge problem as a sorc can easily get out of combat with streak and encase.

Streak was bugged on life - you cast it and stay on the same place as you were before. And any charge skill is way cheaper then repeatedly used streak making streaking sorc an easy pray to any two-hander user for example.

BohnT

Witar wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

And that is a huge problem as a sorc can easily get out of combat with streak and encase.

Streak was bugged on life - you cast it and stay on the same place as you were before. And any charge skill is way cheaper then repeatedly used streak making streaking sorc an easy pray to any two-hander user for example.

If you can't escape with streak you are doing it wrong easiest way is mines ---» streak---->streak

---

> LOS----> DE/DD streak bug is something that almost only happens if you streak through a door or in a tower in open fields it bugged maybe once a week no comparison to crit charge which simply doesn't go off or leaves you stuck in animation randomly or best thing charge into loading screen

Beardimus

Biro123 wrote: »

I can't see them nerfing shields any more than they have, to be honest.. People will realise once they get used to Morrowind - but look at the indirect shield nerfs they have already:

Very easy to get Shattering Blows - 20% nerf
Waste of points to go over 50cp in Bastion - 5% nerf
or
PVP moving to NOCP - 20%? nerf to max mag = a significant nerf to base shield strength, + No Bastion and No Shattering blows (which compared to live setups = around a 20% nerf)

Loss of Pirate Skelly for shield users - 30% nerf

Building for recov = less max mag = smaller shields.

Smaller shields = needeing to re-apply them more often = needing even more recov = even smaller shields.

More stuff that does damage through shields.

Honestly, I'm starting to worry about the viability of shields...

Hard to know for sure, but overall I'm looking at what are now the strongest shield setups on live being at least 60% weaker in Morrowind.

But people think they haven't been nerfed...

Great post @Biro123 glad someone is speaking sense about the issues facing Wards in MW

Biro123

BohnT wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

And that is a huge problem as a sorc can easily get out of combat with streak and encase.

Streak was bugged on life - you cast it and stay on the same place as you were before. And any charge skill is way cheaper then repeatedly used streak making streaking sorc an easy pray to any two-hander user for example.

If you can't escape with streak you are doing it wrong easiest way is mines ---» streak---->streak

---

> LOS----> DE/DD streak bug is something that almost only happens if you streak through a door or in a tower in open fields it bugged maybe once a week no comparison to crit charge which simply doesn't go off or leaves you stuck in animation randomly or best thing charge into loading screen

That's a very 1v1 view. When do you try to escape on a 1v1? Also if you mines+streak or encase+streak on a stamsorc - how much mag do you have left to dark-deal? Especially on no-CP which is where its all going? Why not just throw in a few more heavy attacks through the combat and build a bit more sustain into your build instead, then you can keep the pressure up instead of having to keep running away to reset cos you're out of resources?

For magsorc - yes, shields will protect you while streaking - but not for long - especially against multiple opponents (which is surely when you want to escape, right?) 1 streak will not put you out of range - then you have to choose whether to re-apply that shield that just got beat down or whether to streak again and take the hits.. Either way, you're stuffed unless there's a rock very close. And even so - a mobility build needs a number of abilities to work.. streak, boundless and mines or encase.. + the Dark exchange that makes it worthwhile - 4 abilities. That means no room for pets or aegis or inner light.. ie it is a build with low magica and therefore small shields.... Lowe damage to boot, too. You don't get both massive shields AND mobility. There just aren't the bar-slots for it.

Chilly-McFreeze

Biro123 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

And that is a huge problem as a sorc can easily get out of combat with streak and encase.

Streak was bugged on life - you cast it and stay on the same place as you were before. And any charge skill is way cheaper then repeatedly used streak making streaking sorc an easy pray to any two-hander user for example.

If you can't escape with streak you are doing it wrong easiest way is mines ---» streak---->streak

---

> LOS----> DE/DD streak bug is something that almost only happens if you streak through a door or in a tower in open fields it bugged maybe once a week no comparison to crit charge which simply doesn't go off or leaves you stuck in animation randomly or best thing charge into loading screen

That's a very 1v1 view. When do you try to escape on a 1v1? Also if you mines+streak or encase+streak on a stamsorc - how much mag do you have left to dark-deal? Especially on no-CP which is where its all going? Why not just throw in a few more heavy attacks through the combat and build a bit more sustain into your build instead, then you can keep the pressure up instead of having to keep running away to reset cos you're out of resources?

For magsorc - yes, shields will protect you while streaking - but not for long - especially against multiple opponents (which is surely when you want to escape, right?) 1 streak will not put you out of range - then you have to choose whether to re-apply that shield that just got beat down or whether to streak again and take the hits.. Either way, you're stuffed unless there's a rock very close. And even so - a mobility build needs a number of abilities to work.. streak, boundless and mines or encase.. + the Dark exchange that makes it worthwhile - 4 abilities. That means no room for pets or aegis or inner light.. ie it is a build with low magica and therefore small shields.... Lowe damage to boot, too. You don't get both massive shields AND mobility. There just aren't the bar-slots for it.

No point in arguing here, @Biro123 . Like Feanor implied, people will think sorcs of all builds are massivly overpower until they get nerfed to be unplayable. How often did your explanations got ignored by the same people that keep repeating how OP shields, streak, sustain, mobility, damage, pets, jaddajadda are without even aknowleding the impact the upcoming changes will have?
However, I give it a last try to give a gimpse of the bigger picture.

@BohnT Just out of curiosity, how versed are you on different sorc builds? Stam, magick w/o pets, mag + pet, hybrid + any role in PvP and PvE?

Streak + D/d is no panacea.
And please don't talk down the streak bug that used to happen. At least with the gap closer bug you could line up some abilities that would all go off at once when you canceled the gc.

I'll go a bid in depth with this escape thing.

As for stamsorc:

How big is an usual sSorc pool? 10-12K. 15K with supobtimal class (e.g. dunmer). Regen probably at base + 42% nerfed constitution.
What drains that tiny mag pool? 4K mag - surge that needs 100% uptime? Streak, first costs 3,3K - one isn't always enough, the second streak already costs 5K. You know what toll it takes on a sSorc to streak 3 times in a row?
Why would anyone need more than one streak?

1. the stun doesn't goes through block
2. you need to escape while your opponent has cc immunity
3. one alone doesn't get you out of gap closer range
4. there is more than one opponent. Happens in cyro all the time.

Dark deal costs 3,3K. Mind you not always d/d after 1 streak only. D/d isn't a spam, alone for it's channel time which got increased + the constitution nerfs.

If you find some sSorc who builds around max mag or mag regen, you may need to ask yourself what he sacrificed for that. If these boni could be spend better elsewhere. If someone goes out of his way and pumps up *** he wouldn't need otherwhise just to be able to "spam" that channel, it's probably not an balance issue.

How you think it would be common that a sSorc uses encase and/ or mines is beyond me. I can imagine that a few sSorcs use encase but it also costs 4K magicka and an additional bar slot. But the day has yet to come on that i see a sSorc use mines/tomb. Enormous costs of 6.5K, terrible dmg on stam toons, extra bar slot and people can run around it.

mag sorcs
Sure, you can streak far more often due to the bigger mag pool. Also you can use mines and encase. But don't forget that streak doesn't mitigates dmg. BoL does to an extent. And, like biro rightly said, you either use your gcd to get out of gap closer range and eat ranged or pump up 1-2-3 shields, waste your mag and remain in gap closer/ ranged attack range.
Why does one escape? Bc of low resources or low health or bc of being outnumbered.
Low on res? can't streak or shield
Low health? can't take damage
Out numbered? Better get out of range/ los AND mitigate dmg

3 Shields cost roughly 12,5k together, last for 6sec each, will get weaker in the next patch.

But even if you can get LoS, you need to decide how many of that precious stam you can sacrifice. Since there is no dodge roll, sprint or break free that costs magicka, you need at least some stam left.

How many stam does the usual mSorc has, I ask again. Does he need to build for this? Could he spend slots for max stam/ stam regen on magicka and has better offense and shields? Or does he sacrifice his main stats to an extend just to be able to use dark exchange reliable?
Before this "whoever steps foot into cyro with only 10k stam + base regen doesn't know what he is doing" argument comes up: right, but that doesn't diminish the fact that you need a bit extra regen to use d/e since d/e doesn't saves you from the need to sprint, bash, block, dodge, break free.

Hybrid Sorcs

It's so niche that it barely should be an issue to revolve balance around. I tried numerous times to make this happen, would be glad to see mixed builds get a boost. Besides the low offensive power and the small shields (lower max resources) I never could decide which morph of d/e I should use since there is no pool of dead resources, I felt like I gut myself either way.

Tl;dr

- with the upcoming changes you need to invest into the "dead resource/ regen" to use d/d and escpecially d/c reliably
- one streak isn't an universal remedy
- nerfs to channel time, constitution, cost reduction/ skill costs will take it's toll

Also remember that sorcs aren't exactly a tanking class, hence the escape. They don't get resources back while throwing around class skills or ultimates. They don't cast an instant spell to return health and resources while continuing to attack or just suck resources from somethin in an instant. They have to use a channel, therefore must take a breather from the fight and can't maintain pressure. And afaIk not a single skill with a cast time consumes resources if it get's interrupted.

Finally I'd like to remind you that you can't revolve every scenario around 1v1. Yes, sorcs are strong in that field. But they (especially mSorcs) get weaker by the numbers.

Feanor

@Chilly-McFreeze

Seconded. But save your breath (or fingers in that case). Sorc OP. Needs more nerfs. Nothing else will save ESO. No more arguments needed.

The picture gets even more distinguishable if you consider noCP...

BohnT

@Chilly-McFreeze
I played both Stam and mag sorc in ~30 bgs and in 20 duels, without playing with either of them on live for longer than 3 hours and I won ~80% of the duels because my opponent run out of resources or hadn't had enough to survive my burst.
But I'm sure you say that isn't enough to have good arguments. don't worry I know almost any top sorc on pc EU and all of them say that sorcs are way too good in the next patch.
If you look at good pvpers almost anyone I know rerolls a sorc for Morrowind because they actually tested and know that Sorcs are too strong in the next patch.
I play any other class on live in both pvp and pve and the ease of use of a sorc is simply over the top, the sorc offers low risk huge reward game play while other classes are high risk and high/ medium reward classes and that is simply unbalanced.

If I may ask how many other classes do you play beside sorc and how many hours have you played on them?

Chilly-McFreeze

BohnT wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze
I played both Stam and mag sorc in ~30 bgs and in 20 duels, without playing with either of them on live for longer than 3 hours and I won ~80% of the duels because my opponent run out of resources or hadn't had enough to survive my burst.
But I'm sure you say that isn't enough to have good arguments. don't worry I know almost any top sorc on pc EU and all of them say that sorcs are way too good in the next patch.
If you look at good pvpers almost anyone I know rerolls a sorc for Morrowind because they actually tested and know that Sorcs are too strong in the next patch.
I play any other class on live in both pvp and pve and the ease of use of a sorc is simply over the top, the sorc offers low risk huge reward game play while other classes are high risk and high/ medium reward classes and that is simply unbalanced.

If I may ask how many other classes do you play beside sorc and how many hours have you played on them?

All classes. mostly sorc and nb in pvp and dk/ temp with some excursions to pvp. Good, just wanted to hear if you ever played a sorc. So I believe you are self-critical enough to know that you can't transfer duel/bg experience 1-1 in an open cyro pvp and have the same results. Like I said, sorcs really shine in 1v1, even in small scale they are good. But their value diminishes rapidly if the player counters gets higher. Good that I wrote that before. And why is that so? Bc their defense and escape mechanisms get worse the more players bash at them. A cloak is a cloak, a dodge doges all dodgeable dmg. A streak is just as good as a gap closer - you can't stun them all/ out streak them all on a stam sorc. You also can't do much else but spam shields and streak if you are an outnumbered mag sorc, am I right?

Also biro and I wrote some comments you might want to respond to.

BohnT

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze
I played both Stam and mag sorc in ~30 bgs and in 20 duels, without playing with either of them on live for longer than 3 hours and I won ~80% of the duels because my opponent run out of resources or hadn't had enough to survive my burst.
But I'm sure you say that isn't enough to have good arguments. don't worry I know almost any top sorc on pc EU and all of them say that sorcs are way too good in the next patch.
If you look at good pvpers almost anyone I know rerolls a sorc for Morrowind because they actually tested and know that Sorcs are too strong in the next patch.
I play any other class on live in both pvp and pve and the ease of use of a sorc is simply over the top, the sorc offers low risk huge reward game play while other classes are high risk and high/ medium reward classes and that is simply unbalanced.

If I may ask how many other classes do you play beside sorc and how many hours have you played on them?

All classes. mostly sorc and nb in pvp and dk/ temp with some excursions to pvp. Good, just wanted to hear if you ever played a sorc. So I believe you are self-critical enough to know that you can't transfer duel/bg experience 1-1 in an open cyro pvp and have the same results. Like I said, sorcs really shine in 1v1, even in small scale they are good. But their value diminishes rapidly if the player counters gets higher. Good that I wrote that before. And why is that so? Bc their defense and escape mechanisms get worse the more players bash at them. A cloak is a cloak, a dodge doges all dodgeable dmg. A streak is just as good as a gap closer - you can't stun them all/ out streak them all on a stam sorc. You also can't do much else but spam shields and streak if you are an outnumbered mag sorc, am I right?

Also biro and I wrote some comments you might want to respond to.

It is wanted time answering Biro, he plays only sorc is pretty bad on both of them and is totally biased.

Cloak is no cloak 80% of the time and you know that if you play a nb in pvp. There are so many things which break cloak that you have to rely on luck more than anything else. Dodge is also no good comparison as the other morph of streak negates almost any incoming damage even meteor.
With a dodge roll you can't leave a fight while streak is perfect for this.
Also streak is better than any gap closer as you don't need a target and once you left gap closer range the enemy has no chances to ever be close enough to you to gap close you.

Additionally streak itself might be strong but the synergy it offers with the whole sorc loadout makes sorcs way too strong. No other class has such a nice synergy within all of its abilities.

Nb has a synergy in SA and cloak which will be nerfed next patch
Templar has a good synergy in cleanse and bol
Dk has like no good synergy that didn't get wrecked this patch or before like block and wings or talons and whip but a sorc functions as a perfectly build machine where anything interacts nicely with the other things

Feanor

@BohnT

Even if that were true - your answer is not to design the other classes better but to take away from Sorc. Smh.

BohnT

Feanor wrote: »

@BohnT

Even if that were true - your answer is not to design the other classes better but to take away from Sorc. Smh.

I would like to have these synergies in every class but that won't happen. So I focus on something that is possible to happen. Why would I try to find oil on the moon if there is a oil field next to my house that is not sold yet?

Feanor

You don't try to find oil on the moon. You try to burn your neighbor's oil field because your's got burned down.

Stamden

Feanor wrote: »

You don't try to find oil on the moon. You try to burn your neighbor's oil field because your's got burned down.

Don't you dare touch my oil.

FlamingBeard

Feanor wrote: »

You don't try to find oil on the moon. You try to burn your neighbor's oil field because your's got burned down.

The thing is, ZOS has almost never undone nerfs to classes mid-update.

One of the only examples is Sorcerer, where Curse was nerfed SLIGHTLY then they actually made it STRONGER than it was before the nerf.

Sorcerers are spoiled brats who would rather have the game die than see any semblance of their class being balanced with the other classes.

The only hope for other classes at this point is for Sorcerers to be put in check before it becomes Elder Staves Online (again).

Stamden

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze
I played both Stam and mag sorc in ~30 bgs and in 20 duels, without playing with either of them on live for longer than 3 hours and I won ~80% of the duels because my opponent run out of resources or hadn't had enough to survive my burst.
But I'm sure you say that isn't enough to have good arguments. don't worry I know almost any top sorc on pc EU and all of them say that sorcs are way too good in the next patch.
If you look at good pvpers almost anyone I know rerolls a sorc for Morrowind because they actually tested and know that Sorcs are too strong in the next patch.
I play any other class on live in both pvp and pve and the ease of use of a sorc is simply over the top, the sorc offers low risk huge reward game play while other classes are high risk and high/ medium reward classes and that is simply unbalanced.

If I may ask how many other classes do you play beside sorc and how many hours have you played on them?

All classes. mostly sorc and nb in pvp and dk/ temp with some excursions to pvp. Good, just wanted to hear if you ever played a sorc. So I believe you are self-critical enough to know that you can't transfer duel/bg experience 1-1 in an open cyro pvp and have the same results. Like I said, sorcs really shine in 1v1, even in small scale they are good. But their value diminishes rapidly if the player counters gets higher. Good that I wrote that before. And why is that so? Bc their defense and escape mechanisms get worse the more players bash at them. A cloak is a cloak, a dodge doges all dodgeable dmg. A streak is just as good as a gap closer - you can't stun them all/ out streak them all on a stam sorc. You also can't do much else but spam shields and streak if you are an outnumbered mag sorc, am I right?

Also biro and I wrote some comments you might want to respond to.

Wow, so you're telling me Sorcs can't 1v50? Who would have thought?

Better change that. Buff Sorcs pls.

On a serious note, Mag Sorc is actually one of the very few setups that can get away if you get outnumbered. Good luck streaking away on a Mag DK or Templar. Sorc's ability to escape and deal with these situations is one the (many) reasons that make it by far the best PvP setup in the game.

Chilly-McFreeze

Neighbor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze
I played both Stam and mag sorc in ~30 bgs and in 20 duels, without playing with either of them on live for longer than 3 hours and I won ~80% of the duels because my opponent run out of resources or hadn't had enough to survive my burst.
But I'm sure you say that isn't enough to have good arguments. don't worry I know almost any top sorc on pc EU and all of them say that sorcs are way too good in the next patch.
If you look at good pvpers almost anyone I know rerolls a sorc for Morrowind because they actually tested and know that Sorcs are too strong in the next patch.
I play any other class on live in both pvp and pve and the ease of use of a sorc is simply over the top, the sorc offers low risk huge reward game play while other classes are high risk and high/ medium reward classes and that is simply unbalanced.

If I may ask how many other classes do you play beside sorc and how many hours have you played on them?

All classes. mostly sorc and nb in pvp and dk/ temp with some excursions to pvp. Good, just wanted to hear if you ever played a sorc. So I believe you are self-critical enough to know that you can't transfer duel/bg experience 1-1 in an open cyro pvp and have the same results. Like I said, sorcs really shine in 1v1, even in small scale they are good. But their value diminishes rapidly if the player counters gets higher. Good that I wrote that before. And why is that so? Bc their defense and escape mechanisms get worse the more players bash at them. A cloak is a cloak, a dodge doges all dodgeable dmg. A streak is just as good as a gap closer - you can't stun them all/ out streak them all on a stam sorc. You also can't do much else but spam shields and streak if you are an outnumbered mag sorc, am I right?

Also biro and I wrote some comments you might want to respond to.

Wow, so you're telling me Sorcs can't 1v50? Who would have thought?

Better change that. Buff Sorcs pls.

On a serious note, Mag Sorc is actually one of the very few setups that can get away if you get outnumbered. Good luck streaking away on a Mag DK or Templar. Sorc's ability to escape and deal with these situations is one the (many) reasons that make it by far the best PvP setup in the game.

Running away is OP now? In a game that has no real penalty for dying. Nice to know. And congratulations for avoiding my arguments. Whatever. I'm sure there will pop up another nerf-sorc thread you can express your feelings again.

P.S. A DK or Temp has much better changes while being outnumbered than a sorc. But again, running/ streaking away = victory.

Kalante

Mag sorc is easy mode. Easiest class to play and to kill with. Scape too. Who ever disagrees is wrong.

SanTii.92

Still argueing about pvp sorcs? lmao, do you even pts? look again at templars, wardens and nbs then we can talk how hard mag sorc got hit.

Without bsw and pirate skeleton sorc are average at best. Specially at no cp.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

And ANOTHER nerf XXXX thread. Just stop this nonsense!

Vapirko

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Allu07neb18_ESO wrote: »

I dont like implosion passive its bad game desing, but i can live with that. I still hope they give something else to socs.

I think curse also need some real counter like blocking was.

23 out of 25 times, implosion does nothing.

Curse has a counter - it can be purged.

That is no counterplay for everyone except for templars

Except for the fact that it's an alliance war support skill. There are also sets that will automatically clear negative effects, too.

The alliance skill is expensive and as it is most cannot waste a skill slot on it without leaving behind something too valuable. Using a set just to purge is also a non option.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

And ANOTHER nerf XXXX thread. Just stop this nonsense!

Sorry but we can't stop until either sorcs get nerfed to the level of everyone else or everyone else gets buffed to their level. Otherwise there is no reason to be in Cyrodiil unless you are a sorc. That's how OP they are.

Biro123

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

And ANOTHER nerf XXXX thread. Just stop this nonsense!

Sorry but we can't stop until either sorcs get nerfed to the level of everyone else or everyone else gets buffed to their level. Otherwise there is no reason to be in Cyrodiil unless you are a sorc. That's how OP they are.

But have you stopped, looked on the pts and actually thought 'have they already been nerfed to the level of everyone else?'. Or like many others seem to be doing, are you only looking at them on live?

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

And that is a huge problem as a sorc can easily get out of combat with streak and encase. A sorc has always the chance to streak away and restore his resources faster than any other class can because they need to be in combat so the sorc is always in a better spot once he enters the battle again. This is what is very broken.
The whole sorc loadout is based around this. Shields protect you even when you attack or when you streak away, DD let's you regain massive resources without needing to be in combat. Defensive rune and streak drain even more resources of an enemy who tries to catch you while your burst will still be available due to frags proc, echo of curse and mage's wrath.
That is simply too strong and needs to be changed.
Nb for example has in theory great tools to leave a fight but the nb leaves combat and needs much longer to be able to attack again due to missing resources

Flatout no.

The sorc spends resources getting out of combat. If you don´t chase spending resources in the process every time a sorc escapes combat the fight should be 100% reset.
If not you´re doing it wrong.

ccfeeling

Dont blame sorc , zos nerf nb again seriously!

Chilly-McFreeze

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yes - Bastion can be spent elsewhere - in fact theres a new direct damage defensive CP that they will have to be spent in regardless.. Even so - with PvP moving to no-CP - shields have been hit.

Yes, sustain was nerfed with every other class - I'm not disputing that. I AM disputing these constant 'Sorcs weren't touched' posts which are blatantly false.
You don't see Templars spamming heals every 4 seconds when they're at full health.. Shields are a huge resource drain - whether the shield was needed or not - THAT impacts sorcs more.
Consider NoCP and reduction of the max stats of all classes and lets see how their most common defence mechanisms change..:
Shields - Scale totally off max mag - which takes a 20% hit. They are FULLY impacted by the stat-loss in No-CP
Does BoL heal for less? - yes - but it also scales of spell-damage which isn't directly reduced by lack of CP. So only partially impacted
Dodge-roll? Doesn't make any difference what your max stats are. All undodgeables miss.
Block? Doesn't matter what your max stats are. Dmg reduction is based on skills/passives/gear.
Cloak? Doesn't matter what your max stat is - a miss is a miss.

Dark deal is could well disappear. Why spend 1.2 seconds dark-dealing when you could spend just a fraction of a second more heavy-attacking, woven with another ability if you choose? costing no Magica ? And doing damage? The resource return now won't be too much worse than D/D but the benefits..... Seriously, D/D is probably gonna disappear off all but the overload bar - which is very clunky to switch to in combat - ie. it will be an out of combat ability only.

And that is a huge problem as a sorc can easily get out of combat with streak and encase. A sorc has always the chance to streak away and restore his resources faster than any other class can because they need to be in combat so the sorc is always in a better spot once he enters the battle again. This is what is very broken.
The whole sorc loadout is based around this. Shields protect you even when you attack or when you streak away, DD let's you regain massive resources without needing to be in combat. Defensive rune and streak drain even more resources of an enemy who tries to catch you while your burst will still be available due to frags proc, echo of curse and mage's wrath.
That is simply too strong and needs to be changed.
Nb for example has in theory great tools to leave a fight but the nb leaves combat and needs much longer to be able to attack again due to missing resources

Flatout no.

The sorc spends resources getting out of combat. If you don´t chase spending resources in the process every time a sorc escapes combat the fight should be 100% reset.
If not you´re doing it wrong.

Yes, same as someone trying to repeatedly interrupt d/d instead of bursting him down. You only use d/d if you're low on stam or health. Heal isn't that big and takes too long to outheal incoming damage. Seriously, if you can't deal 4K dmg in 1.4 seconds you're doing it wrong.
If you're close enough to bash, you're close enough for empowered flame lash as well. Better than to "bash and bash and bash and waste my resources while the sSorc has no penalty for this".
Or simply stun + burst. There's a reason for retreating. He's vulnerable while doing so.

Stamden

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze
I played both Stam and mag sorc in ~30 bgs and in 20 duels, without playing with either of them on live for longer than 3 hours and I won ~80% of the duels because my opponent run out of resources or hadn't had enough to survive my burst.
But I'm sure you say that isn't enough to have good arguments. don't worry I know almost any top sorc on pc EU and all of them say that sorcs are way too good in the next patch.
If you look at good pvpers almost anyone I know rerolls a sorc for Morrowind because they actually tested and know that Sorcs are too strong in the next patch.
I play any other class on live in both pvp and pve and the ease of use of a sorc is simply over the top, the sorc offers low risk huge reward game play while other classes are high risk and high/ medium reward classes and that is simply unbalanced.

If I may ask how many other classes do you play beside sorc and how many hours have you played on them?

All classes. mostly sorc and nb in pvp and dk/ temp with some excursions to pvp. Good, just wanted to hear if you ever played a sorc. So I believe you are self-critical enough to know that you can't transfer duel/bg experience 1-1 in an open cyro pvp and have the same results. Like I said, sorcs really shine in 1v1, even in small scale they are good. But their value diminishes rapidly if the player counters gets higher. Good that I wrote that before. And why is that so? Bc their defense and escape mechanisms get worse the more players bash at them. A cloak is a cloak, a dodge doges all dodgeable dmg. A streak is just as good as a gap closer - you can't stun them all/ out streak them all on a stam sorc. You also can't do much else but spam shields and streak if you are an outnumbered mag sorc, am I right?

Also biro and I wrote some comments you might want to respond to.

Wow, so you're telling me Sorcs can't 1v50? Who would have thought?

Better change that. Buff Sorcs pls.

On a serious note, Mag Sorc is actually one of the very few setups that can get away if you get outnumbered. Good luck streaking away on a Mag DK or Templar. Sorc's ability to escape and deal with these situations is one the (many) reasons that make it by far the best PvP setup in the game.

Running away is OP now? In a game that has no real penalty for dying. Nice to know. And congratulations for avoiding my arguments. Whatever. I'm sure there will pop up another nerf-sorc thread you can express your feelings again.

P.S. A DK or Temp has much better changes while being outnumbered than a sorc. But again, running/ streaking away = victory.

The ability to run away from fights is massive in Cyrodiil. Being able to survive when a fight goes badly means that you don't have to waste the 5-10 minutes horse riding back into the fight. AP farming is way faster on Mag Sorc then anything else with a major reason being just this.

(Though running around like a demi-god makes also contributes to really easy AP farming too)

Vosital

Neighbor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

@Chilly-McFreeze
I played both Stam and mag sorc in ~30 bgs and in 20 duels, without playing with either of them on live for longer than 3 hours and I won ~80% of the duels because my opponent run out of resources or hadn't had enough to survive my burst.
But I'm sure you say that isn't enough to have good arguments. don't worry I know almost any top sorc on pc EU and all of them say that sorcs are way too good in the next patch.
If you look at good pvpers almost anyone I know rerolls a sorc for Morrowind because they actually tested and know that Sorcs are too strong in the next patch.
I play any other class on live in both pvp and pve and the ease of use of a sorc is simply over the top, the sorc offers low risk huge reward game play while other classes are high risk and high/ medium reward classes and that is simply unbalanced.

If I may ask how many other classes do you play beside sorc and how many hours have you played on them?

All classes. mostly sorc and nb in pvp and dk/ temp with some excursions to pvp. Good, just wanted to hear if you ever played a sorc. So I believe you are self-critical enough to know that you can't transfer duel/bg experience 1-1 in an open cyro pvp and have the same results. Like I said, sorcs really shine in 1v1, even in small scale they are good. But their value diminishes rapidly if the player counters gets higher. Good that I wrote that before. And why is that so? Bc their defense and escape mechanisms get worse the more players bash at them. A cloak is a cloak, a dodge doges all dodgeable dmg. A streak is just as good as a gap closer - you can't stun them all/ out streak them all on a stam sorc. You also can't do much else but spam shields and streak if you are an outnumbered mag sorc, am I right?

Also biro and I wrote some comments you might want to respond to.

Wow, so you're telling me Sorcs can't 1v50? Who would have thought?

Better change that. Buff Sorcs pls.

On a serious note, Mag Sorc is actually one of the very few setups that can get away if you get outnumbered. Good luck streaking away on a Mag DK or Templar. Sorc's ability to escape and deal with these situations is one the (many) reasons that make it by far the best PvP setup in the game.

Running away is OP now? In a game that has no real penalty for dying. Nice to know. And congratulations for avoiding my arguments. Whatever. I'm sure there will pop up another nerf-sorc thread you can express your feelings again.

P.S. A DK or Temp has much better changes while being outnumbered than a sorc. But again, running/ streaking away = victory.

The ability to run away from fights is massive in Cyrodiil. Being able to survive when a fight goes badly means that you don't have to waste the 5-10 minutes horse riding back into the fight. AP farming is way faster on Mag Sorc then anything else with a major reason being just this.

(Though running around like a demi-god makes also contributes to really easy AP farming too)

Yeah seriously, I get like twice the AP/hour on my Mag Sorc compared to my DK. Even when I am in a group, being able to do *** and setup camps after my group wipes just leads to way better AP gain. There is a reason like half the top leaderboards are Sorcs every cycle.

But of course obvious data like doesn't get looked at by ZoS.