Sorcs and Favoritism

Xvorg

Elevenstorm wrote: »

Where's the abilities and consumables that remove shields? I would like to see a poison that removes all shields on proc and does not allow you to reapply a shield for 3 seconds.

5 secs...

Subversus

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I think normal sorc is pretty balanced with the changes to pirate skeleton and fragment nerf. Petsorc (especially with Necropotence) is another story.

Yeah... all they need to do is nerf pet damage and I'm done. Or make them only scale off spell damage.

ADarklore

Subversus wrote: »

Yeah... all they need to do is nerf pet damage and I'm done. Or make them only scale off spell damage.

They announced on ESO Live today that a big nerf is incoming to Volatile Familiar and hit the LIVE server with Morrowind... it is not going to PTS but directly to Live.

STEVIL

ADarklore wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Yeah... all they need to do is nerf pet damage and I'm done. Or make them only scale off spell damage.

They announced on ESO Live today that a big nerf is incoming to Volatile Familiar and hit the LIVE server with Morrowind... it is not going to PTS but directly to Live.

definitely getting adjusted down but how and how much is yet to be seen. personally, i would like to see scamp left mostly intact but the daedric prey adjusted. scamp alone not Op its scamp plus 55%.

Subversus

ADarklore wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Yeah... all they need to do is nerf pet damage and I'm done. Or make them only scale off spell damage.

They announced on ESO Live today that a big nerf is incoming to Volatile Familiar and hit the LIVE server with Morrowind... it is not going to PTS but directly to Live.

That's nice. I haven't watched the stream, anything else of value worth mentioning? Maybe some stam dk or magblade changes?

Prospero_ESO

so wrobel is nerfing his little honey ? i´m curious but i believe it only if i see it.

potirondb16_ESO

Vosital wrote: »

Every single patch, we expect some kind of nerfs or adjustments to the overtuned class that is the Sorcerer in this game. Yet every single time, they get the best of the patch notes. The gap between Mag Sorcs and everybody else just gets more and more ridiculous every time.

Take last patch for example. Mag Sorcs were god tier in PvP and PvE. What happened? A raw 8% damage increase and a better Haunting Curse.

This patch? Almost every aspect of the game is getting toned down and nerfed, except Sorcs and shields.

There is a major problem in this game when a full light armor Sorc in Lich can spam shield indefinitely and be harder to kill than any kind of heavy armor tank. There is no reason to play anything else in PvP. You do the most damage, are the most mobile, and are the hardest to kill. In PvE you outparse everyone by a huge margin.

We get it Zenimax, this class is your favorite and they need to be vastly superior to every other class in the game in every aspect of the game. But this is just getting ridiculous. It is so unprofessional for this kind of ridiculous favoritism to exist by a major company.

Just saying Sorc got good 2 patch ago, before that we were at the buttom of the dps row. we got a full years of being good at Nothing well at least not good at Nothing but average.

Minalan

Prospero_ESO wrote: »

so wrobel is nerfing his little honey ? i´m curious but i believe it only if i see it.

Looks like the little exploding scamp pet is getting its damage nerfed.

Which is fine, especially for those of us who despise pets and are tired of ZOS trying to ram the ugly stupid looking little monsters down our throats.

Lylith

Minalan wrote: »

Prospero_ESO wrote: »

so wrobel is nerfing his little honey ? i´m curious but i believe it only if i see it.

Looks like the little exploding scamp pet is getting its damage nerfed.

Which is fine, especially for those of us who despise pets and are tired of ZOS trying to ram the ugly stupid looking little monsters down our throats.

and be damned to anyone who does use pets.

Chilly-McFreeze

I remember the time when no one wanted to use pets bc they are clunky, annoying, needed too much bar space, died too fast, hard to control, bugged (getting stucked in walls, don't use players crit percentage correctly) and did not enough damage. Then they got (probably) overbuffed bc ZOS deals with issues only in too large margings instead of small changes. People still complained that they can't take pets into trials bc they steal buffs, healing, aggro etc. I missed the moment when that changed bc the forum tells me they are overperforming dps wise and deal extreme dmg in trials now. I get that, they are ahead of other builds atm.

People yell "Sorcs are too OP" and that's it. While in the next thread they complain that stamina toons won't be accepted in vet trials. Seems like sSorcs aren't the problem. It's really only one build that overperformes: necro + familiar + prey. But to distinguish stam sorcs from non-pet mag sorcs from pet sorcs seems too much to ask.

But question is, if (big if) pets get nerfed dmg wise to a non-pet sorc dps level, why should anyone deal with the annoying mechanics of them anymore? Where is the incentive to endure the negatives that if it doesn't give them any bonus? ZOS tried for years to make pets relevant, people suggested to even remove the whole skill line. So probably there should be something else than pure dmg that gets people to use pets. Any ideas?

Biro123

Tone them down, remove the toggle, make them have a duration instead, so even if not killed they have to be resummoned, say every 5 minutes.

Biggest problem I have with magsorc is bar space. They keep trying to push destro too, over DW. Only destro ability I have space for is the ulti. I'd rather use a different one, but need at least one destro ability for that 8% DMG buff. Now if pet only took one slot... I'd have loads more build options.

Transairion

I'm going to be really blunt:

Daedric Summoning has been considered *** tier for a long time. It constantly receives nerfs to deal with other Sorc builds (Antronach lost its taunt due to Trial groups spamming it, Ward getting duration gutted) and lo and behold, finally a Daedric Summoning pet is actually considered viable enough to be meta and OOPS can't have that!

Twilight Matriach still does crap damage, Tormentor does LOLworthy damage and Antronach is still a pretty weak Ultimate. All of these take into account Daedric Prey being spammed for +55% damage, so it should be pretty obvious at this point none of the fault lies with any of these skills.


A single bugfix of: "Volatile Familiar now receives the benefits of Daedric Prey as intended" caused this "Pet Sorc OP" meta, and logically reverting that bugfix or nerfing the damage of Familiar ONLY will solve it. Not gutting Daedric Prey, not gutting all pet DPS, not deleting Daedric Summoning entirely.

Nerfing Volatile Familiar slightly, and only slightly: enough that it's DPS isn't high enough to be meta anymore and it's dropped like a steaming turd as per usual.

If the balance team nerfs Volatile Familiar so hard it's DPS actually ends up WORSE than pre-bugfix, then all my faith in Zenimax goes out the window and I might be done. I'm been using Daedric Summoning in it's entirety since I first started playing, if they take a sledgehammer to a niche, barely-viable build BECAUSE ONE SINGLE META BUILD CAN NOW USE THAT SKILLINE then what's the point of playing?

Nerf Volatile Familiar slightly, because it's literally only Volatile Familiar that's a "problem" after the bugfix. Pre-bugfix to Familiar not benefitting from Prey, everyone STILL THOUGHT FAMILIAR WAS ***. Should be kind of obvious what caused this problem if that was the case!

Izaki

waitwhat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.

I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.

@Tonturri

I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.

If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.

Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.

Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.

How about... not?

If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?

Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.

@Minalan

Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.

"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.

Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.

@Minalan

Go back and read carefully every word I wrote. I responded to you in very good faith and you are lucky to have thoughts like this out there, rather than the nerf hammer that will otherwise fall upon your class if you continue stonewalling discussion like this.

Sorcs absolutely have resistance under shields. Impen armor--which need not be light to deal damage--as well as streak, pets, negate, and the highest burst damage in the game.

Sorry I don't care about every 'brilliant' nerf sorc idea from every fool who doesn't know the first thing about the game.

So instead I'll make fun:

LOL light armor mitigation with sharpened weapons. Basic math is so hard.
LOL streak is a mitigation tool.
LOL negate as a defensive CD, it's an ultimate.


I feel so lucky!

@Minalan

Then you are beneath consideration, and everyone crying for sorc nerfs has nothing to fear from you.

/thread.

EDIT: Oh and by the way

1. Sharpened weapons can be mitigated with heavy armor or points in the resistance CP star for Light Armor.
2. Streak mitigates damage by removing you from it and stunning your attacker, similar to roll dodge but much more effective.
3. Negate is absolutely a valid defense, as is Veil of Blades for nightblades. Their status as ultimates does not diminish that fact.

Did I really just read that Streak is more effective than Roll Dodge? What kinda drugs you taking?

Witar

Just nerf daedric prey and leave scamp pulse as is.

Vosital

Well, looks like the devs are completely neglecting the Sorc issue as far as PvP is concerned. Shields are still insane and Dark Deal is still a ridiculous ability. Both Mag and Stam Sorcs are way better than their respective counterparts.

CyrusArya

Vosital wrote: »

Well, looks like the devs are completely neglecting the Sorc issue as far as PvP is concerned. Shields are still insane and Dark Deal is still a ridiculous ability. Both Mag and Stam Sorcs are way better than their respective counterparts.

They aren't. They simply understand the kind of players who complain about sorcs, and how bad they are. You can't fix incompetence with balance changes.

Not gonna drop any names, but having fought against several of the vocal sorc nay sayers the past few weeks, my theories are so confirmed. I can see why you guys would hate the class so much. But your problems are personal issues, not balance concerns.

Chilly-McFreeze

Vosital wrote: »

Well, looks like the devs are completely neglecting the Sorc issue as far as PvP is concerned. Shields are still insane and Dark Deal is still a ridiculous ability. Both Mag and Stam Sorcs are way better than their respective counterparts.

Maybe it will dawn on you that in this case you can't nerf too much without breaking the class.

Streak doesn't mitigate damage. It doesn't even bring you out of gap closer range. And unlike gap closers, there is a penalty for spamming it.
Shields value decreases drastically if there are more opponents. Unlike dodge roll, which completely negates most damage from doesn't-matter-how-many-opponents and breaks roots.
Also pirate skeleton doesn't proc on shields anymore. Leaving it a high risk and unreliable for sorcs.
Sorcs don't benefit from HA, so it's their only defense.

Dark Exchange isn't exactly an god-like skill, since you have to build for stam regen or you end up cc'ed and dead even faster.
Dark Deal is in a good spot right now. Increased duration and a worse magicka regen through HA passives. Also it's an interuptable channel, means you can't do anything else while that. It's not an insta cast or a passive.

Crystal Frags recieved a 10% nerf. If you nerf any other skill by that margin people would complain. It hits hard. So does (at least the second) wrecking blow.
Haunting curse is something nobody asked for. Many people wouldn't mind changing it back to the original mechanic bc the second proc takes so long to happen. You can clean it.
Familiars Pulse now finally benefits from Prey and it's strong. Too strong, granted. But messing around with prey would nerf the other pets, which do laughable damage right now.


Did I forget something?

Biro123

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

BohnT

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

Vosital

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

I actually think these Sorcs genuinely believe that their class is balanced in PvP and they are just so used to being OP that it is just "normal" for them. They are completely blinded to the real situation and are so used to having an insanely strong class as a crutch that it doesn't matter.

The problem is this has gone on for so long that there is no going back. So many people have rerolled to Sorc and never looked back. Now such a large populous of the forum is blind to the problem and it just makes it harder for the devs to get real feedback (even with 24 pages of a very obvious problem).

I think Sorcs being OP is just embedded in the game permanently. We are in too deep and the devs have made it clear they are not going to fix it.

Chilly-McFreeze

Vosital wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

I actually think these Sorcs genuinely believe that their class is balanced in PvP and they are just so used to being OP that it is just "normal" for them. They are completely blinded to the real situation and are so used to having an insanely strong class as a crutch that it doesn't matter.

The problem is this has gone on for so long that there is no going back. So many people have rerolled to Sorc and never looked back. Now such a large populous of the forum is blind to the problem and it just makes it harder for the devs to get real feedback (even with 24 pages of a very obvious problem).

I think Sorcs being OP is just embedded in the game permanently. We are in too deep and the devs have made it clear they are not going to fix it.

And I think everyone who yelps "NERF SORC, SORC SO OP" has a L2P problem because he doesn't know how cc effects someone with an 10k stam pool. Also I think it's obvious that these guys can't distinguish between an stam sorc, a non-pet mag sorc and a pet-sorc. Otherwise they wouldn't cry stuff like "these pets + dark deal + hurricane + shields" make them OP. Or you might run into a couple of strange hybrid sorcs and got facerolled, what would emphasize the L2P issue.

See what I did there? I generalized each and everyone who has a different oppinion than myself. Cool? No, not cool. Stupid thing to do. So you shouldn't do it too.

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

Most often Zerg fights don't end 1v1. That unreal and an assumption to strenghten your point. Also Xv1 is always bad for the solo guy. Why shouldn't it? Why should 1 guy have an edge over many? In this game you aren't the dragonborn that tears others to shreds. So your suggestion is to nerf, nerf, nerf sorcs until they aren't strong in Xv1? At least you make your view public.
Everyone is strong in Xv1.

But let's go into detail.
Encase. You mean the weaker version of Talons that either do damage or snares you? It's a simple root. Now it's a problem that sorcs have a root? If you are ranged, encase doesn't do ***. If you are a stam build, you can dodge to break free, gain immunity and mitigate every damage but channels. As if rooting is a sorc problem.

Curse. Like I said in other threads, nobody asked for that second proc. Most guys recast it after the first explosion bc the second takes solong to happen. It also can be purged. It's one of the 2 direct dmg class skills that can't be reflected.

Wrath + curse reduced your effective health to 50%? First off, unlike jesus beam, wrath doesn't do *** until 20%. To compare: NB execute starts at 25%, Templar at 50%, DK execute.. ups. DW deals more dmg at 25%, 2h execute scales from 50%. Same with the Bow execute. At least wrath has a flat extra dmg and not a scaled one. I give you that.
BTW I never got hit from curse for more than 9K. In light armor. Without buffs. This isn't a spammable, mind that.

I also think you don't realise how sorcs work. They depend on timed burst but are lackluster in between. You've basically got 3.5+ seconds between the DODGABLE bursts. In that time you can go full offensive, heal back to full etc. It takes just one dodge to mitigate wraht + frags, you can even dodge that non-class spam sorcs are forced to use. And with one dodge the strategy of a sorc goes to waste.
To compare, a DK has at least the choice to apply constant pressure through his Dots.

Shields are strong in 1v1 but loose value rapidly in a Xv1 situation, unlike dodge roll that mitigates all but channels from no matter how many opponents in that time. Mind that there are dmg options that ignore shields. Mind that pirate skeleton is rendered unreliable or even useless to shield users. Mind that mag sorcs gain nothing from heavy armor, hence use light armor and have a small stam pool. So blocking (except with an ice staff) and dodging isn't a thing for them. LA mitigation is laughable. Shields are all they have. When they spam shields, they not only waste their mag pool but also use their GCD for something that isn't an offensive skill.
Just CC that sorc and dodge his bullet every 4 seconds and you are fine.

Dark Deal. You complain about the power of mag sorcs and to emphasize your argument you throw a skill for stam sorcs in the mix. Nice. Dark exchange isn't a problem since it drains a mag sorcs stam pool really fast. You know, stam is needed for breaking free, blocking, dodging and all that. Even 2.5k costs of dark conversion are a high risk.
However we got from pet using mag sorcs to stam sorcs is obscure to me. But if it helps your argument... D/d utilizes the small mag pool of stam sorcs, that is already used to keep up surge (4k costs) and streak (3.7k). Plus the 3.2k for conversion. Mind the duration nerf + the 42% lower mag regen through HA passives.
How big is your usual stam toons mag pool? 10k? 12K if you use a mag race for your stam toon? 15K if you invest in it?
It's a channel of 1.2 seconds. You can't do anything else while channeling that. It's interuptable. It has comparable high costs for a small mag pool. It isn't a fire-and-forget insta skill or a passive that returns res while you go full offensive. The costs are more than 25%+ of your mag pool, you pay off via time in that you don't pressure your opponent.

Wait a second, or are you saying that HA passives + black rose + investments into mag regen assure a stam sorc can "spam" a resource returning channel when he builds for that?

BohnT

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

I actually think these Sorcs genuinely believe that their class is balanced in PvP and they are just so used to being OP that it is just "normal" for them. They are completely blinded to the real situation and are so used to having an insanely strong class as a crutch that it doesn't matter.

The problem is this has gone on for so long that there is no going back. So many people have rerolled to Sorc and never looked back. Now such a large populous of the forum is blind to the problem and it just makes it harder for the devs to get real feedback (even with 24 pages of a very obvious problem).

I think Sorcs being OP is just embedded in the game permanently. We are in too deep and the devs have made it clear they are not going to fix it.

And I think everyone who yelps "NERF SORC, SORC SO OP" has a L2P problem because he doesn't know how cc effects someone with an 10k stam pool. Also I think it's obvious that these guys can't distinguish between an stam sorc, a non-pet mag sorc and a pet-sorc. Otherwise they wouldn't cry stuff like "these pets + dark deal + hurricane + shields" make them OP. Or you might run into a couple of strange hybrid sorcs and got facerolled, what would emphasize the L2P issue.

See what I did there? I generalized each and everyone who has a different oppinion than myself. Cool? No, not cool. Stupid thing to do. So you shouldn't do it too.

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

Most often Zerg fights don't end 1v1. That unreal and an assumption to strenghten your point. Also Xv1 is always bad for the solo guy. Why shouldn't it? Why should 1 guy have an edge over many? In this game you aren't the dragonborn that tears others to shreds. So your suggestion is to nerf, nerf, nerf sorcs until they aren't strong in Xv1? At least you make your view public.
Everyone is strong in Xv1.

But let's go into detail.
Encase. You mean the weaker version of Talons that either do damage or snares you? It's a simple root. Now it's a problem that sorcs have a root? If you are ranged, encase doesn't do ***. If you are a stam build, you can dodge to break free, gain immunity and mitigate every damage but channels. As if rooting is a sorc problem.

Curse. Like I said in other threads, nobody asked for that second proc. Most guys recast it after the first explosion bc the second takes solong to happen. It also can be purged. It's one of the 2 direct dmg class skills that can't be reflected.

Wrath + curse reduced your effective health to 50%? First off, unlike jesus beam, wrath doesn't do *** until 20%. To compare: NB execute starts at 25%, Templar at 50%, DK execute.. ups. DW deals more dmg at 25%, 2h execute scales from 50%. Same with the Bow execute. At least wrath has a flat extra dmg and not a scaled one. I give you that.
BTW I never got hit from curse for more than 9K. In light armor. Without buffs. This isn't a spammable, mind that.

I also think you don't realise how sorcs work. They depend on timed burst but are lackluster in between. You've basically got 3.5+ seconds between the DODGABLE bursts. In that time you can go full offensive, heal back to full etc. It takes just one dodge to mitigate wraht + frags, you can even dodge that non-class spam sorcs are forced to use. And with one dodge the strategy of a sorc goes to waste.
To compare, a DK has at least the choice to apply constant pressure through his Dots.

Shields are strong in 1v1 but loose value rapidly in a Xv1 situation, unlike dodge roll that mitigates all but channels from no matter how many opponents in that time. Mind that there are dmg options that ignore shields. Mind that pirate skeleton is rendered unreliable or even useless to shield users. Mind that mag sorcs gain nothing from heavy armor, hence use light armor and have a small stam pool. So blocking (except with an ice staff) and dodging isn't a thing for them. LA mitigation is laughable. Shields are all they have. When they spam shields, they not only waste their mag pool but also use their GCD for something that isn't an offensive skill.
Just CC that sorc and dodge his bullet every 4 seconds and you are fine.

Dark Deal. You complain about the power of mag sorcs and to emphasize your argument you throw a skill for stam sorcs in the mix. Nice. Dark exchange isn't a problem since it drains a mag sorcs stam pool really fast. You know, stam is needed for breaking free, blocking, dodging and all that. Even 2.5k costs of dark conversion are a high risk.
However we got from pet using mag sorcs to stam sorcs is obscure to me. But if it helps your argument... D/d utilizes the small mag pool of stam sorcs, that is already used to keep up surge (4k costs) and streak (3.7k). Plus the 3.2k for conversion. Mind the duration nerf + the 42% lower mag regen through HA passives.
How big is your usual stam toons mag pool? 10k? 12K if you use a mag race for your stam toon? 15K if you invest in it?
It's a channel of 1.2 seconds. You can't do anything else while channeling that. It's interuptable. It has comparable high costs for a small mag pool. It isn't a fire-and-forget insta skill or a passive that returns res while you go full offensive. The costs are more than 25%+ of your mag pool, you pay off via time in that you don't pressure your opponent.

Wait a second, or are you saying that HA passives + black rose + investments into mag regen assure a stam sorc can "spam" a resource returning channel when he builds for that?

If you really play with 10k stam and 0 stam regen you are completely wrong to say that sorc is balanced. Play with 3 pc well fitted and amberplasm and see how often you die to cc's.
I know 1 of the best magsorc on pc EU and there is no duel or situation where he dies that not includes one huge mistake that he made.
That is against scrubs in pvp and the best duel players.
People are so focused on max damage that they don't realise how good their class is when they use a balanced build that lets them use their abilities more often.

aeowulf

I think when he said they were getting nerfed it change comments will be roughly along these lines:

If you don't play a sorc, this will be a nerf. It could be considered a buff if you play a sorc.

Biro123

BohnT wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

I actually think these Sorcs genuinely believe that their class is balanced in PvP and they are just so used to being OP that it is just "normal" for them. They are completely blinded to the real situation and are so used to having an insanely strong class as a crutch that it doesn't matter.

The problem is this has gone on for so long that there is no going back. So many people have rerolled to Sorc and never looked back. Now such a large populous of the forum is blind to the problem and it just makes it harder for the devs to get real feedback (even with 24 pages of a very obvious problem).

I think Sorcs being OP is just embedded in the game permanently. We are in too deep and the devs have made it clear they are not going to fix it.

And I think everyone who yelps "NERF SORC, SORC SO OP" has a L2P problem because he doesn't know how cc effects someone with an 10k stam pool. Also I think it's obvious that these guys can't distinguish between an stam sorc, a non-pet mag sorc and a pet-sorc. Otherwise they wouldn't cry stuff like "these pets + dark deal + hurricane + shields" make them OP. Or you might run into a couple of strange hybrid sorcs and got facerolled, what would emphasize the L2P issue.

See what I did there? I generalized each and everyone who has a different oppinion than myself. Cool? No, not cool. Stupid thing to do. So you shouldn't do it too.

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

Most often Zerg fights don't end 1v1. That unreal and an assumption to strenghten your point. Also Xv1 is always bad for the solo guy. Why shouldn't it? Why should 1 guy have an edge over many? In this game you aren't the dragonborn that tears others to shreds. So your suggestion is to nerf, nerf, nerf sorcs until they aren't strong in Xv1? At least you make your view public.
Everyone is strong in Xv1.

But let's go into detail.
Encase. You mean the weaker version of Talons that either do damage or snares you? It's a simple root. Now it's a problem that sorcs have a root? If you are ranged, encase doesn't do ***. If you are a stam build, you can dodge to break free, gain immunity and mitigate every damage but channels. As if rooting is a sorc problem.

Curse. Like I said in other threads, nobody asked for that second proc. Most guys recast it after the first explosion bc the second takes solong to happen. It also can be purged. It's one of the 2 direct dmg class skills that can't be reflected.

Wrath + curse reduced your effective health to 50%? First off, unlike jesus beam, wrath doesn't do *** until 20%. To compare: NB execute starts at 25%, Templar at 50%, DK execute.. ups. DW deals more dmg at 25%, 2h execute scales from 50%. Same with the Bow execute. At least wrath has a flat extra dmg and not a scaled one. I give you that.
BTW I never got hit from curse for more than 9K. In light armor. Without buffs. This isn't a spammable, mind that.

I also think you don't realise how sorcs work. They depend on timed burst but are lackluster in between. You've basically got 3.5+ seconds between the DODGABLE bursts. In that time you can go full offensive, heal back to full etc. It takes just one dodge to mitigate wraht + frags, you can even dodge that non-class spam sorcs are forced to use. And with one dodge the strategy of a sorc goes to waste.
To compare, a DK has at least the choice to apply constant pressure through his Dots.

Shields are strong in 1v1 but loose value rapidly in a Xv1 situation, unlike dodge roll that mitigates all but channels from no matter how many opponents in that time. Mind that there are dmg options that ignore shields. Mind that pirate skeleton is rendered unreliable or even useless to shield users. Mind that mag sorcs gain nothing from heavy armor, hence use light armor and have a small stam pool. So blocking (except with an ice staff) and dodging isn't a thing for them. LA mitigation is laughable. Shields are all they have. When they spam shields, they not only waste their mag pool but also use their GCD for something that isn't an offensive skill.
Just CC that sorc and dodge his bullet every 4 seconds and you are fine.

Dark Deal. You complain about the power of mag sorcs and to emphasize your argument you throw a skill for stam sorcs in the mix. Nice. Dark exchange isn't a problem since it drains a mag sorcs stam pool really fast. You know, stam is needed for breaking free, blocking, dodging and all that. Even 2.5k costs of dark conversion are a high risk.
However we got from pet using mag sorcs to stam sorcs is obscure to me. But if it helps your argument... D/d utilizes the small mag pool of stam sorcs, that is already used to keep up surge (4k costs) and streak (3.7k). Plus the 3.2k for conversion. Mind the duration nerf + the 42% lower mag regen through HA passives.
How big is your usual stam toons mag pool? 10k? 12K if you use a mag race for your stam toon? 15K if you invest in it?
It's a channel of 1.2 seconds. You can't do anything else while channeling that. It's interuptable. It has comparable high costs for a small mag pool. It isn't a fire-and-forget insta skill or a passive that returns res while you go full offensive. The costs are more than 25%+ of your mag pool, you pay off via time in that you don't pressure your opponent.

Wait a second, or are you saying that HA passives + black rose + investments into mag regen assure a stam sorc can "spam" a resource returning channel when he builds for that?

If you really play with 10k stam and 0 stam regen you are completely wrong to say that sorc is balanced. Play with 3 pc well fitted and amberplasm and see how often you die to cc's.
I know 1 of the best magsorc on pc EU and there is no duel or situation where he dies that not includes one huge mistake that he made.
That is against scrubs in pvp and the best duel players.
People are so focused on max damage that they don't realise how good their class is when they use a balanced build that lets them use their abilities more often.

Ahh, So best players = overpowered while using one particular set. I see... You know why Amberplasm is a thing for sorcs? - Its to add more dodging. Whay do sorcs need more dodging? To protect their shields. Why do sorcs need to add stuff into their build to protect their shields? Because they don't scale with no. of attackers and keep getting burst through.
Its a 1vx setup - giving you more mobility - but the sacrifice is having to use that mobility to los to be able to regen mag.
You cannot use it with pets because you need the slots for that mobility - so your magica is lower and so shields are weaker. Also damage is lower too as you need to rely on a LOT of dark exchanges to return mag. So your 3.5 second bursts become less frequent. I think I know the guy you are talking about - and I only ever notice him in small groups, getting most kills by over-extending potatoes or co-ordinating burst (which adds to my views about the build having lower damage than most sorcs).
Its a very specific build which can only be made strong by very good players. Nerf Skill!

Chilly-McFreeze

aeowulf wrote: »

I think when he said they were getting nerfed it change comments will be roughly along these lines:

If you don't play a sorc, this will be a nerf. It could be considered a buff if you play a sorc.

20% longer channel duration of dark deal. Since every sorc seems to do 60k+ dps the loss from using dark deal is 72k dmg. Oh wait, "you can't take stam toons to trials"... Ironic.

Freaking 10% lower damage from frags.

On LIVE they said they will lower the familiar dmg.

BohnT wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

I actually think these Sorcs genuinely believe that their class is balanced in PvP and they are just so used to being OP that it is just "normal" for them. They are completely blinded to the real situation and are so used to having an insanely strong class as a crutch that it doesn't matter.

The problem is this has gone on for so long that there is no going back. So many people have rerolled to Sorc and never looked back. Now such a large populous of the forum is blind to the problem and it just makes it harder for the devs to get real feedback (even with 24 pages of a very obvious problem).

I think Sorcs being OP is just embedded in the game permanently. We are in too deep and the devs have made it clear they are not going to fix it.

And I think everyone who yelps "NERF SORC, SORC SO OP" has a L2P problem because he doesn't know how cc effects someone with an 10k stam pool. Also I think it's obvious that these guys can't distinguish between an stam sorc, a non-pet mag sorc and a pet-sorc. Otherwise they wouldn't cry stuff like "these pets + dark deal + hurricane + shields" make them OP. Or you might run into a couple of strange hybrid sorcs and got facerolled, what would emphasize the L2P issue.

See what I did there? I generalized each and everyone who has a different oppinion than myself. Cool? No, not cool. Stupid thing to do. So you shouldn't do it too.

BohnT wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

You forgot front loaded CP's meaning a lot more in shattering blows.
Speccing more into sustain means less mag = weaker shields.
Weaker shields don't last as long so you need yet more sustain...
More reflects
Streak still broken

The thing with shields is that if they are ever weak enough so that one CD of attacks from one person can strip them, you will never have chance to attack. You will switch to heavy armour to survive. Shields will then be even less effective and start to be replaced on their bar with heals instead..
In fact the whole shields mechanic will be gone.
But this is what the sorc haters want. They want to just spam any times and cause damage, while the poor sorc does nothing but cast shields until dead. Heaven forbid any cc comes into play, or another opponent..

Why do sorcs think that we like them to be useless?
We want to have the chance that 2 ppl who are equally skilled have almost the same chances to kill each other or achieve the same results in pve dps, sustain and survival wise
And there is a huge gap between sorcs and the other classes.
If you duel a sorc you have no influence on the fight what so ever unless the sorc has no idea what he's doing. Shields are too strong in 1v1 and 1v1 needs to be somewhat balanced to have a healthy pvp.
More often than not zerg fights end in 1v1 if you can't kill the sorc but he has a high chance of killing you there is a huge imbalance.

Additionally sorc is way too strong in Xv1 as almost anything the sorc uses is extremely powerful and punishing for the 1.
Encase drains mountains of stam, curse and wrath reduce the effective health to 50%, shields make the sorc very strong and prevents that he can be bursted fast enough. Pets help to build up pressure and dark deal is simply broken as you can have infinite sustain with it.

We want to have a good chance in a fight against a sorc and not hoping for our luck to win us the fight.

Most often Zerg fights don't end 1v1. That unreal and an assumption to strenghten your point. Also Xv1 is always bad for the solo guy. Why shouldn't it? Why should 1 guy have an edge over many? In this game you aren't the dragonborn that tears others to shreds. So your suggestion is to nerf, nerf, nerf sorcs until they aren't strong in Xv1? At least you make your view public.
Everyone is strong in Xv1.

But let's go into detail.
Encase. You mean the weaker version of Talons that either do damage or snares you? It's a simple root. Now it's a problem that sorcs have a root? If you are ranged, encase doesn't do ***. If you are a stam build, you can dodge to break free, gain immunity and mitigate every damage but channels. As if rooting is a sorc problem.

Curse. Like I said in other threads, nobody asked for that second proc. Most guys recast it after the first explosion bc the second takes solong to happen. It also can be purged. It's one of the 2 direct dmg class skills that can't be reflected.

Wrath + curse reduced your effective health to 50%? First off, unlike jesus beam, wrath doesn't do *** until 20%. To compare: NB execute starts at 25%, Templar at 50%, DK execute.. ups. DW deals more dmg at 25%, 2h execute scales from 50%. Same with the Bow execute. At least wrath has a flat extra dmg and not a scaled one. I give you that.
BTW I never got hit from curse for more than 9K. In light armor. Without buffs. This isn't a spammable, mind that.

I also think you don't realise how sorcs work. They depend on timed burst but are lackluster in between. You've basically got 3.5+ seconds between the DODGABLE bursts. In that time you can go full offensive, heal back to full etc. It takes just one dodge to mitigate wraht + frags, you can even dodge that non-class spam sorcs are forced to use. And with one dodge the strategy of a sorc goes to waste.
To compare, a DK has at least the choice to apply constant pressure through his Dots.

Shields are strong in 1v1 but loose value rapidly in a Xv1 situation, unlike dodge roll that mitigates all but channels from no matter how many opponents in that time. Mind that there are dmg options that ignore shields. Mind that pirate skeleton is rendered unreliable or even useless to shield users. Mind that mag sorcs gain nothing from heavy armor, hence use light armor and have a small stam pool. So blocking (except with an ice staff) and dodging isn't a thing for them. LA mitigation is laughable. Shields are all they have. When they spam shields, they not only waste their mag pool but also use their GCD for something that isn't an offensive skill.
Just CC that sorc and dodge his bullet every 4 seconds and you are fine.

Dark Deal. You complain about the power of mag sorcs and to emphasize your argument you throw a skill for stam sorcs in the mix. Nice. Dark exchange isn't a problem since it drains a mag sorcs stam pool really fast. You know, stam is needed for breaking free, blocking, dodging and all that. Even 2.5k costs of dark conversion are a high risk.
However we got from pet using mag sorcs to stam sorcs is obscure to me. But if it helps your argument... D/d utilizes the small mag pool of stam sorcs, that is already used to keep up surge (4k costs) and streak (3.7k). Plus the 3.2k for conversion. Mind the duration nerf + the 42% lower mag regen through HA passives.
How big is your usual stam toons mag pool? 10k? 12K if you use a mag race for your stam toon? 15K if you invest in it?
It's a channel of 1.2 seconds. You can't do anything else while channeling that. It's interuptable. It has comparable high costs for a small mag pool. It isn't a fire-and-forget insta skill or a passive that returns res while you go full offensive. The costs are more than 25%+ of your mag pool, you pay off via time in that you don't pressure your opponent.

Wait a second, or are you saying that HA passives + black rose + investments into mag regen assure a stam sorc can "spam" a resource returning channel when he builds for that?

If you really play with 10k stam and 0 stam regen you are completely wrong to say that sorc is balanced. Play with 3 pc well fitted and amberplasm and see how often you die to cc's.
I know 1 of the best magsorc on pc EU and there is no duel or situation where he dies that not includes one huge mistake that he made.
That is against scrubs in pvp and the best duel players.
People are so focused on max damage that they don't realise how good their class is when they use a balanced build that lets them use their abilities more often.

Right, playing with 10k stam and 600 stam regen on a pvp mag toon is high risk/ borderline stupid. Investing into stamina is, yeah it's exactly what it's called, an investment that you could use for more mag/ mag regen instead. People complain about unbreakable shields due to high max mag. I read all the time "mag sorcs don't need to use impen or anything else but full offensive divines/ infused". You have limited options to invest in res/regen/dmg/etc. You know where this is heading.

You know one of the best... Nice. Maybe his success comes from, you know, being one of the best?
"That is against scrubs in pvp..." yes, so? The best kills scrubs. What does that prove?
"...and the best duel players." - right, sorcs are strong in 1v1 but get outshined by most other classes (dk and temp) in Xv1. Agreed, sorcs shouldn't be good at anything...

But I honestly agree with your last sentence.

Rinmaethodain

I wish we could stop the nerfs on players alltogether and start balancing things around players.

Zedrian

Nightblades are far from being the bottom dps. A friend did 46k dps on a Stamina Nightblade on a 3 million skeleton (with an off balance scenario but no other buff). On console i don't know anyone else who reached such a score with PVE trials gear
Check it out https://youtu.be/-pIzJtciPvM
Sorcs are in the right place right now. Either buff the other classes or learn to play them

Draqone

Zedrian wrote: »

Nightblades are far from being the bottom dps. A friend did 46k dps on a Stamina Nightblade on a 3 million skeleton (with an off balance scenario but no other buff).

You do realise that we are talking about the PTS here, where the Siphoning nerf hits NBs hard...

Not sure what bringing up live scores has to do with this thread, on live sorcs can beat that parse selfbuffed! reaching nearly 50k DPS on the 3 mil skeleton. I don't have a video on hand but just yesterday I saw a selfbuffed 49.5k casually being thrown around in guild chat. *cough* @Juhasow *cough*

Zedrian

Draqone wrote: »

Zedrian wrote: »

Nightblades are far from being the bottom dps. A friend did 46k dps on a Stamina Nightblade on a 3 million skeleton (with an off balance scenario but no other buff).

You do realise that we are talking about the PTS here, where the Siphoning nerf hits NBs hard...

Not sure what bringing up live scores has to do with this thread, on live sorcs can beat that parse selfbuffed! reaching nearly 50k DPS on the 3 mil skeleton. I don't have a video on hand but just yesterday I saw a selfbuffed 49.5k casually being thrown around in guild chat. *cough* @Juhasow *cough*

Because I don't have videos from PTS as I am a console player. I do play around to test builds on the PTS. But should I be excluded from the conversation? My comment was a response to a lot of the ridiculous comments of how NB were nerfs to the ground or how Sorc DPS over performs.

A lot of people look at the DPS comparison of Alcast for example or other youtubers and measure if one class over performs than others immediately, then overreact on forums. My point is that you have players that can easily exceed these DPS thresholds by moving CP/Gear/Skills/Rotation around and can compete and beat sorcerers. On live, on console I don't know any sorcs that went beyond 44k self buffed and I would be curious to see that 49k video. I play as a tank but I also enjoy playing my mSorc and self buffed I can't exceed 40.7k (you can find my dps on my youtube). I don't claim to know all the top PS4 EU players, so I am sure there are better sorcs, templars, DKs, NBs out there.

This is true for past patches, live and PTS patch.

Here is another example:
Alcast tries a build he thought was optimal, and did an average DPS test, then in the same video switches jewelry to Willpower instead of Moondancer, and increases his DPS and was surprised. It is not the class the problem, it is how you play it and how you think outside of the box that makes your class really great.
https://youtu.be/fU0cS4Rb5tY

Edit: in Alcast's video seems the sustain on NB is still excellent where he can avoid heavy attacks ;-). In a trial environment you will receive massive Magicka regen if your entire team activate synergies from energy/mystic orbs

DisgracefulMind

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

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And I think everyone who yelps "NERF SORC, SORC SO OP" has a L2P problem because he doesn't know how cc effects someone with an 10k stam pool. Also I think it's obvious that these guys can't distinguish between an stam sorc, a non-pet mag sorc and a pet-sorc. Otherwise they wouldn't cry stuff like "these pets + dark deal + hurricane + shields" make them OP. Or you might run into a couple of strange hybrid sorcs and got facerolled, what would emphasize the L2P issue.

I am Templar, plz tell me what my reliable CC is. rawr.

On a serious note, I'm not for Sorc nerfs