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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Sorcs and Favoritism
-
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
at all now if you can look just drink det potion or spam curse or just any aoe... on nb and his main defense (cloak) is just not working, nb is deprived his main defence skill while sorc will be able just use his shield like any other mag class
(on the other way now I see on cyro how 80% of mag nb have dropped cloak for this shield from light armora because it always work and is guaranteed defense haha)
NBs are struggling in solo small scale cause their main defence is kiting and avoiding dmg which is hard countered by the broken snares and roots. So you fix the stupid roots and snares so nightblades can utilize their main defence. You dont destroy the defences of other classes so they are all screwed. Thats common sense.
I have just compared main nb defense which is easy to screw up to sorc defense which is stackable with light armor shield making it the best possible defense in game outside perm block tank for zergs to only tank, slow them
And i said shieldstacking is the problem. So fix shieldstacking. Harness should not stack with hardened. You dont destroy hardened and make it useless. Thats stupid.
They also really need to nerf the magika return from Harness too. It gives back basically all magika back when you're wearing light.
I think it´s the intentional design of harness to refund it´s magica cost.
It´s only problematic on high magica sorc builds because in that scenario harness refunds way more than it´s original cost.
Just visited PTS and log in on my Sorc. Harness there costs 3900 magicka, 1300 (I have 42k magicka) is a value per hit up to 3 times. This value 30% stronger due to 5 LA. So ~1700x3 = 5100 is a pretty common scenario. Still too high, in my opinion.
I think so aswell. I refuse to incorporate harness in any of my builds because i think a skill that gains you magica for spamming a defensive action is broken.
I think harness should refund 70% of it´s original cost when it´s destroyed (not recasted) and an extra 5% for every piece of light armor.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually this is a sad discussion. It's a replica of the threads that were all over the forums when TG hit and stam ruled all of Cyrodiil. Everyone was playing StamNB then. Mag Sorcs were seldom seen.
There is no point in these discussions. It's just about where the hammer hits next. Sad state of PvP.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.7 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »That would be a good change to shields in general making them scale off max health instead of Magicka. Magicka increases damage, you should not be able to increase survivability with the same stat that increases damage because then you only focus on maxing that one stat. Either that or give Stamina classes like DK a Stamina scaled Igneous shield.
So, while other classes have to slot impen, shield stacking sorcs are free to use traits that can boost their offense, further widening the gap between them and other classes.
What gap, have you played pts? Stamplar, magplar, wardens are all on top of mag sorcs, by quite a long shot. Even more so on no cp setups.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Vosital✭✭✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
at all now if you can look just drink det potion or spam curse or just any aoe... on nb and his main defense (cloak) is just not working, nb is deprived his main defence skill while sorc will be able just use his shield like any other mag class
(on the other way now I see on cyro how 80% of mag nb have dropped cloak for this shield from light armora because it always work and is guaranteed defense haha)
NBs are struggling in solo small scale cause their main defence is kiting and avoiding dmg which is hard countered by the broken snares and roots. So you fix the stupid roots and snares so nightblades can utilize their main defence. You dont destroy the defences of other classes so they are all screwed. Thats common sense.
I have just compared main nb defense which is easy to screw up to sorc defense which is stackable with light armor shield making it the best possible defense in game outside perm block tank for zergs to only tank, slow them
And i said shieldstacking is the problem. So fix shieldstacking. Harness should not stack with hardened. You dont destroy hardened and make it useless. Thats stupid.
They also really need to nerf the magika return from Harness too. It gives back basically all magika back when you're wearing light.
I think it´s the intentional design of harness to refund it´s magica cost.
It´s only problematic on high magica sorc builds because in that scenario harness refunds way more than it´s original cost.
Just visited PTS and log in on my Sorc. Harness there costs 3900 magicka, 1300 (I have 42k magicka) is a value per hit up to 3 times. This value 30% stronger due to 5 LA. So ~1700x3 = 5100 is a pretty common scenario. Still too high, in my opinion.
I think so aswell. I refuse to incorporate harness in any of my builds because i think a skill that gains you magica for spamming a defensive action is broken.
I think harness should refund 70% of it´s original cost when it´s destroyed (not recasted) and an extra 5% for every piece of light armor.
Yeah it certinaly does need to be reduced. Every other source of sustain got hit super hard, but this ability give an insane amount of resources back still.
Same thing with the Lich set too. In general alot of the crap that Sorcs abuse just didn't get nerfed while everything else did.1 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually this is a sad discussion. It's a replica of the threads that were all over the forums when TG hit and stam ruled all of Cyrodiil. Everyone was playing StamNB then. Mag Sorcs were seldom seen.
There is no point in these discussions. It's just about where the hammer hits next. Sad state of PvP.
Between the endless sustain, sets like Necro, shield stacking 40k+ magicka shields, Pirate monster set, and Destro Ultimate I don't remember Stamblade ever being even close to the same level of unbalanced as MagSorc became during Tamriel One and Homestead.Edited by Twohothardware on May 11, 2017 7:14PM3 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think normal sorc is pretty balanced with the changes to pirate skeleton and fragment nerf. Petsorc (especially with Necropotence) is another story.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Twohothardware wrote: »Actually this is a sad discussion. It's a replica of the threads that were all over the forums when TG hit and stam ruled all of Cyrodiil. Everyone was playing StamNB then. Mag Sorcs were seldom seen.
There is no point in these discussions. It's just about where the hammer hits next. Sad state of PvP.
Between the endless sustain, sets like Necro, shield stacking 40k+ magicka shields, Pirate monster set, and Destro Ultimate I don't remember Stamblade ever being even close to the same level of unbalanced as MagSorc became during Tamriel One and Homestead.
I disagree. Just do a quick search with the terms "nerf NB" and quickly glance through the old threads. You'll see how the Sorcs are perceived as the underdogs and stam rules all. Different story for PvE, sure. But that's on ZOS' stubbornness.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
at all now if you can look just drink det potion or spam curse or just any aoe... on nb and his main defense (cloak) is just not working, nb is deprived his main defence skill while sorc will be able just use his shield like any other mag class
(on the other way now I see on cyro how 80% of mag nb have dropped cloak for this shield from light armora because it always work and is guaranteed defense haha)
NBs are struggling in solo small scale cause their main defence is kiting and avoiding dmg which is hard countered by the broken snares and roots. So you fix the stupid roots and snares so nightblades can utilize their main defence. You dont destroy the defences of other classes so they are all screwed. Thats common sense.
I have just compared main nb defense which is easy to screw up to sorc defense which is stackable with light armor shield making it the best possible defense in game outside perm block tank for zergs to only tank, slow them
And i said shieldstacking is the problem. So fix shieldstacking. Harness should not stack with hardened. You dont destroy hardened and make it useless. Thats stupid.
They also really need to nerf the magika return from Harness too. It gives back basically all magika back when you're wearing light.
I think it´s the intentional design of harness to refund it´s magica cost.
It´s only problematic on high magica sorc builds because in that scenario harness refunds way more than it´s original cost.
Just visited PTS and log in on my Sorc. Harness there costs 3900 magicka, 1300 (I have 42k magicka) is a value per hit up to 3 times. This value 30% stronger due to 5 LA. So ~1700x3 = 5100 is a pretty common scenario. Still too high, in my opinion.
I think so aswell. I refuse to incorporate harness in any of my builds because i think a skill that gains you magica for spamming a defensive action is broken.
I think harness should refund 70% of it´s original cost when it´s destroyed (not recasted) and an extra 5% for every piece of light armor.
Yeah it certinaly does need to be reduced. Every other source of sustain got hit super hard, but this ability give an insane amount of resources back still.
Same thing with the Lich set too. In general alot of the crap that Sorcs abuse just didn't get nerfed while everything else did.
What's the big lich problem, and how is it only sorcs abusing it? Do other classes just 'use' it? Or is this 'magica sustain set' somehow only usable by sorcs? You're not gonna tell me that other classes did just fine without a sustain set are you? - in the same breath as complaining about their sustain skill nerfs?Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.3 -
Vosital✭✭✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
at all now if you can look just drink det potion or spam curse or just any aoe... on nb and his main defense (cloak) is just not working, nb is deprived his main defence skill while sorc will be able just use his shield like any other mag class
(on the other way now I see on cyro how 80% of mag nb have dropped cloak for this shield from light armora because it always work and is guaranteed defense haha)
NBs are struggling in solo small scale cause their main defence is kiting and avoiding dmg which is hard countered by the broken snares and roots. So you fix the stupid roots and snares so nightblades can utilize their main defence. You dont destroy the defences of other classes so they are all screwed. Thats common sense.
I have just compared main nb defense which is easy to screw up to sorc defense which is stackable with light armor shield making it the best possible defense in game outside perm block tank for zergs to only tank, slow them
And i said shieldstacking is the problem. So fix shieldstacking. Harness should not stack with hardened. You dont destroy hardened and make it useless. Thats stupid.
They also really need to nerf the magika return from Harness too. It gives back basically all magika back when you're wearing light.
I think it´s the intentional design of harness to refund it´s magica cost.
It´s only problematic on high magica sorc builds because in that scenario harness refunds way more than it´s original cost.
Just visited PTS and log in on my Sorc. Harness there costs 3900 magicka, 1300 (I have 42k magicka) is a value per hit up to 3 times. This value 30% stronger due to 5 LA. So ~1700x3 = 5100 is a pretty common scenario. Still too high, in my opinion.
I think so aswell. I refuse to incorporate harness in any of my builds because i think a skill that gains you magica for spamming a defensive action is broken.
I think harness should refund 70% of it´s original cost when it´s destroyed (not recasted) and an extra 5% for every piece of light armor.
Yeah it certinaly does need to be reduced. Every other source of sustain got hit super hard, but this ability give an insane amount of resources back still.
Same thing with the Lich set too. In general alot of the crap that Sorcs abuse just didn't get nerfed while everything else did.
What's the big lich problem, and how is it only sorcs abusing it? Do other classes just 'use' it? Or is this 'magica sustain set' somehow only usable by sorcs? You're not gonna tell me that other classes did just fine without a sustain set are you? - in the same breath as complaining about their sustain skill nerfs?
Because you can only run light armor is mostly exclusive to Mag Sorcs.
All stam setups are (obviously) going to be using medium or heavy. Magplar, Mag Warden, and Mag DK don't have ranged abilities, shields, or escapes so they are forced to use heavy. This leaves Mag Sorc and maybe Mag NB as the only setups that can use abuse Lich and Harness.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
at all now if you can look just drink det potion or spam curse or just any aoe... on nb and his main defense (cloak) is just not working, nb is deprived his main defence skill while sorc will be able just use his shield like any other mag class
(on the other way now I see on cyro how 80% of mag nb have dropped cloak for this shield from light armora because it always work and is guaranteed defense haha)
NBs are struggling in solo small scale cause their main defence is kiting and avoiding dmg which is hard countered by the broken snares and roots. So you fix the stupid roots and snares so nightblades can utilize their main defence. You dont destroy the defences of other classes so they are all screwed. Thats common sense.
I have just compared main nb defense which is easy to screw up to sorc defense which is stackable with light armor shield making it the best possible defense in game outside perm block tank for zergs to only tank, slow them
And i said shieldstacking is the problem. So fix shieldstacking. Harness should not stack with hardened. You dont destroy hardened and make it useless. Thats stupid.
They also really need to nerf the magika return from Harness too. It gives back basically all magika back when you're wearing light.
I think it´s the intentional design of harness to refund it´s magica cost.
It´s only problematic on high magica sorc builds because in that scenario harness refunds way more than it´s original cost.
Just visited PTS and log in on my Sorc. Harness there costs 3900 magicka, 1300 (I have 42k magicka) is a value per hit up to 3 times. This value 30% stronger due to 5 LA. So ~1700x3 = 5100 is a pretty common scenario. Still too high, in my opinion.
I think so aswell. I refuse to incorporate harness in any of my builds because i think a skill that gains you magica for spamming a defensive action is broken.
I think harness should refund 70% of it´s original cost when it´s destroyed (not recasted) and an extra 5% for every piece of light armor.
Yeah it certinaly does need to be reduced. Every other source of sustain got hit super hard, but this ability give an insane amount of resources back still.
Same thing with the Lich set too. In general alot of the crap that Sorcs abuse just didn't get nerfed while everything else did.
What's the big lich problem, and how is it only sorcs abusing it? Do other classes just 'use' it? Or is this 'magica sustain set' somehow only usable by sorcs? You're not gonna tell me that other classes did just fine without a sustain set are you? - in the same breath as complaining about their sustain skill nerfs?
The problem is that stam doesn't has any sustain set that is anywhere close to amberplasm or lich. The best stam set got nerfed by 50% while none of the other sets were nerfed.
And only mag nb really uses lich besides sorc the other classes have to use Heavy armor making lich a bad choice.
You don't want sorcs to be nerfed and you don't want other things to be nerfed. Let me tell you this again: Sorc is overperforming in Morrowind and it needs to be nerfed. No other class will be buffed in this patch so nerfs are the only thing that is left.
3 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You can use lich without a single piece of light - Although, its a lot of farming to get the 1-handers/shields.Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?But again Not ONE sorc has gave a rational argument as to why they didnt get any changes in both pts patch notes.
@Drishtan most of what makes sorc overperforming is either gear or skills not specific to sorcs.
They need to adress harness magica stacking with hardened ward. It flatout should not imo.
They need to do something about pirate skeleton. It´s too strong.
About sorc they need to reduce the effectiveness of dark deal. A suggestion was turning the resources return into a over time component (470 every s over 10s instead of 4700 at once) allowing you to spam dark deal for healing or wait for the resource return reducing it´s effectiveness.
What would you propose to change about sorcs?
@Derra You are WRONG about harness being the problem with Sorcs. It's ward that allows Sorcs, AND ONLY Sorcs to stack 2 damage shields. Is harness a problem on Magblades or Magicka Templar or Magicka DK???.......NO!
If Ward and all its morphs scaled off max health like Blazing and Igneous Sorcs would be on an even playing field when it came to shields. Instead Ward gives Sorcs the incentive to dump all their attribute points into maxing out Magicka because they get tankiness, large resource pools and more damage.
Don't go after a skill all classes have access to just to avoid what the real problem with shield stacking when its within the Sorc skill line.
So you want to make sorc's only viable defence useless because harness can stack with ward. Yeah that obviously makes a lot of sense.
at all now if you can look just drink det potion or spam curse or just any aoe... on nb and his main defense (cloak) is just not working, nb is deprived his main defence skill while sorc will be able just use his shield like any other mag class
(on the other way now I see on cyro how 80% of mag nb have dropped cloak for this shield from light armora because it always work and is guaranteed defense haha)
NBs are struggling in solo small scale cause their main defence is kiting and avoiding dmg which is hard countered by the broken snares and roots. So you fix the stupid roots and snares so nightblades can utilize their main defence. You dont destroy the defences of other classes so they are all screwed. Thats common sense.
I have just compared main nb defense which is easy to screw up to sorc defense which is stackable with light armor shield making it the best possible defense in game outside perm block tank for zergs to only tank, slow them
And i said shieldstacking is the problem. So fix shieldstacking. Harness should not stack with hardened. You dont destroy hardened and make it useless. Thats stupid.
They also really need to nerf the magika return from Harness too. It gives back basically all magika back when you're wearing light.
I think it´s the intentional design of harness to refund it´s magica cost.
It´s only problematic on high magica sorc builds because in that scenario harness refunds way more than it´s original cost.
Just visited PTS and log in on my Sorc. Harness there costs 3900 magicka, 1300 (I have 42k magicka) is a value per hit up to 3 times. This value 30% stronger due to 5 LA. So ~1700x3 = 5100 is a pretty common scenario. Still too high, in my opinion.
I think so aswell. I refuse to incorporate harness in any of my builds because i think a skill that gains you magica for spamming a defensive action is broken.
I think harness should refund 70% of it´s original cost when it´s destroyed (not recasted) and an extra 5% for every piece of light armor.
Yeah it certinaly does need to be reduced. Every other source of sustain got hit super hard, but this ability give an insane amount of resources back still.
Same thing with the Lich set too. In general alot of the crap that Sorcs abuse just didn't get nerfed while everything else did.
What's the big lich problem, and how is it only sorcs abusing it? Do other classes just 'use' it? Or is this 'magica sustain set' somehow only usable by sorcs? You're not gonna tell me that other classes did just fine without a sustain set are you? - in the same breath as complaining about their sustain skill nerfs?
Because you can only run light armor is mostly exclusive to Mag Sorcs.
All stam setups are (obviously) going to be using medium or heavy. Magplar, Mag Warden, and Mag DK don't have ranged abilities, shields, or escapes so they are forced to use heavy. This leaves Mag Sorc and maybe Mag NB as the only setups that can use abuse Lich and Harness.
Lich jewelry, defending resto staff, and a belt. It works on your back bar.
You can still fit a full set of five heavy armor on this build, a monster set (heavy helm), plus a sword and shield.
Boo hoo. Nerf Sorcs because I can't theorycraft.You can use lich without a single piece of light - Although, its a lot of farming to get the 1-handers/shields.
I went through three or four infused and reinforced shields and one sharpened sword before finally getting a defending resto staff... RNG in this game is abusive.
Edited by Minalan on May 11, 2017 10:18PM6 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'd rather have the shield.. I don't use resto. Just can't get a shield to dropEdited by Biro123 on May 11, 2017 10:25PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
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Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much. Just curious.Edited by Tonturri on May 12, 2017 2:40AM0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."1 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits.Edited by Minalan on May 12, 2017 3:05AM1 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
@Tonturri
Interesting. It would give critical damage a unique advantage without being overpowered, as the advantage can easily be countered with Impen armor.
@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom This suggestion would introduce a niche advantage with effective counterplay, bringing more balance to the Sorc class in PvP as achieving the advantage and the counterplay require both parties to sacrifice elsewhere. The attacker must invest more heavily in critical damage while the defending sorc would favor impen over other armor traits. This suggestion would also not diminish sorc survivability in PvE, as critical damage can only be applied by other players.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
EDIT: Shattering Blows only addresses damage to shields as a whole, not only the critical damage. Buffing or nerfing Shattering Blows would too heavy handedly nerf or buff sorc defenses. Surely you don't mean to call for that?Edited by waitwhat on May 12, 2017 3:10AMPS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.Edited by Minalan on May 12, 2017 3:09AM0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
@Minalan
Go back and read carefully every word I wrote. I responded to you in very good faith and you are lucky to have thoughts like this out there, rather than the nerf hammer that will otherwise fall upon your class if you continue stonewalling discussion like this.
Sorcs absolutely have resistance under shields. Impen armor--which need not be light to deal damage--as well as streak, pets, negate, and the highest burst damage in the game.Edited by waitwhat on May 12, 2017 3:14AMPS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
@Minalan
Go back and read carefully every word I wrote. I responded to you in very good faith and you are lucky to have thoughts like this out there, rather than the nerf hammer that will otherwise fall upon your class if you continue stonewalling discussion like this.
Sorcs absolutely have resistance under shields. Impen armor--which need not be light to deal damage--as well as streak, pets, negate, and the highest burst damage in the game.
Sorry I don't care about every 'brilliant' nerf sorc idea from every fool who doesn't know the first thing about the game.
So instead I'll make fun:
LOL light armor mitigation with sharpened weapons. Basic math is so hard.
LOL streak is a mitigation tool.
LOL negate as a defensive CD, it's an ultimate.
I feel so lucky!
Edited by Minalan on May 12, 2017 3:41AM0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
@Minalan
Go back and read carefully every word I wrote. I responded to you in very good faith and you are lucky to have thoughts like this out there, rather than the nerf hammer that will otherwise fall upon your class if you continue stonewalling discussion like this.
Sorcs absolutely have resistance under shields. Impen armor--which need not be light to deal damage--as well as streak, pets, negate, and the highest burst damage in the game.
Sorry I don't care about every 'brilliant' nerf sorc idea from every fool who doesn't know the first thing about the game.
So instead I'll make fun:
LOL light armor mitigation with sharpened weapons. Basic math is so hard.
LOL streak is a mitigation tool.
LOL negate as a defensive CD, it's an ultimate.
I feel so lucky!
@Minalan
Then you are beneath consideration, and everyone crying for sorc nerfs has nothing to fear from you.
/thread.
EDIT: Oh and by the way
1. Sharpened weapons can be mitigated with heavy armor or points in the resistance CP star for Light Armor.
2. Streak mitigates damage by removing you from it and stunning your attacker, similar to roll dodge but much more effective.
3. Negate is absolutely a valid defense, as is Veil of Blades for nightblades. Their status as ultimates does not diminish that fact.Edited by waitwhat on May 12, 2017 3:50AMPS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much. Just curious.
Shields cannot take critical damage but they also don't critically strike.
Also, sorcerers have one shield and it's called daedric ward. There is nothing wrong with this ability and what troubles most players nowadays is nothing to do with sorcerers themselves being OP, it has everything to do with what armor and sets some of the sorcerers go for.
Sorcerers are balanced when not using things like pirate skeleton or necropotence, or a combination of those two. You don't have a problem with hardened ward, you have a problem with an inflated magicka pool that renders those shield(s) much stronger than they would have been normally.
All you need to do as a sorcerer is slot a scamp/atro, go for necro/pirate and you don't even need to shield stack. You can spam one incredibly tough shield when these conditions are met, and if you also happen to have decent critical and base resistances (boundless + at least 15% ele/hardy), you're sorted even when it's depleted.
And since necro doesn't just give you more defense, but a whole lot more offense, you're sorted there too. Now the only thing that's left is your stam/mag recoveries and you're covered totally.
So no, do not ask for sorcerer nerfs, instead start listing sets, monster sets and all other sources of major buffs (like protection for example) and have good discussions on how to balance these.
I play all classes and have absolutely no trouble killing sorcerers on any of them. In fact, my stamina templar just bursts through those shield(s) like they're nothing, pirate or no pirate...1 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭I would add that any crit damage overflow from the attack, if the base is entirely absorbed by shield, should probably not take the attackers penetration into concern due to how high penetration is these days - at the start at least. I don't know why people totally disregard suggestions when it's perfectly viable to tweak them (start off not allowing penetration for crit overflow damage, adjust as needed. not that...what? 10% mitigation is all that much? 7%?). I'd hope such a change, though, would inspire sorcs to start using that lightning form thing again, or even crit surge for the over time heal in order to mitigate incoming crit damage.
Seriously though, raising a fuss over that small of a detail? Come on now.
Edit: ~10k armor res vs ~5k pen from a legendary sharpened weapon. What was that about basic math O.o LA gets ~5k more pen from passives, -2k from that to accomodate Spell Warding.
@waitwhat Thank you for the pleasant comments. I really appreciate it. Mind if I sent you a PM? I've been trying to get someone to actually respond to some of my thoughts for a while, would appreciate it if you looked 'em over.
It's been a long time grief of mine that sorcs get practically no benefit from heavy armor as a result of their main defense - shields. But more on that later. To add on to this...1. Sharpened weapons can be mitigated with heavy armor or points in the resistance CP star for Light Armor.
2. Streak mitigates damage by removing you from it and stunning your attacker, similar to roll dodge but much more effective.
3. Negate is absolutely a valid defense, as is Veil of Blades for nightblades. Their status as ultimates does not diminish that fact.
The resistance CP for light armor is not, in my exp, very good. Doesn't diminish your point, but worth noting. I do think it will become more of a viable choice as we get more CP (although this means it's also a moot point in BGs) 5/1/1 is still something of a thing, so having a heavy chest to count as that 1 for a not totally insignificant amount of armor also isn't too shabby, I think.
Edited by Tonturri on May 12, 2017 4:37AM0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
You just said that as magsorc you're ignoring half of the game rules.
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
Btw major ward and major resolve from lightning form mitigates sharpened twohander, sorc even have minor versions of those buffs with bound armor so he can buff himself from zero to 6.3k resists while 160CP LA isn't zero, it's 13k resists, lets combine them...aaaaaand 19.3k resist, which is equal to 5HA+2LA
No resists at all and zero(only 5?meh) class-specific healing sources, yeah, can't survive at allEdited by Sugaroverdose on May 12, 2017 4:24AM0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
You just said that as magsorc you're ignoring half of the game rules.
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
Btw major ward and major resolve from lightning form mitigates sharpened twohander, sorc even have minor versions of those buffs with bound armor so he can buff himself from zero to 6.3k resists while 160CP LA isn't zero, it's 13k resists, lets combine them...aaaaaand 19.3k resist, which is equal to 5HA+2LA
No resists at all and zero(only 5?meh) class-specific healing sources, yeah, can't survive at all
Sharpened and major breach gets rid of both.
Heavy armor still has plenty left. Throw on block, major mending, and vigor, troll king, 3K impen, and rally and your average stam player is doing fine.
And who the heck runs bound armor in PVP? Who puts points into light armor CP? Please stop with the impossible scenarios.
This thread has gone full potato.Edited by Minalan on May 12, 2017 4:39AM0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
@Minalan
Go back and read carefully every word I wrote. I responded to you in very good faith and you are lucky to have thoughts like this out there, rather than the nerf hammer that will otherwise fall upon your class if you continue stonewalling discussion like this.
Sorcs absolutely have resistance under shields. Impen armor--which need not be light to deal damage--as well as streak, pets, negate, and the highest burst damage in the game.
Sorry I don't care about every 'brilliant' nerf sorc idea from every fool who doesn't know the first thing about the game.
So instead I'll make fun:
LOL light armor mitigation with sharpened weapons. Basic math is so hard.
LOL streak is a mitigation tool.
LOL negate as a defensive CD, it's an ultimate.
I feel so lucky!
@Minalan
Then you are beneath consideration, and everyone crying for sorc nerfs has nothing to fear from you.
/thread.
EDIT: Oh and by the way
1. Sharpened weapons can be mitigated with heavy armor or points in the resistance CP star for Light Armor.
2. Streak mitigates damage by removing you from it and stunning your attacker, similar to roll dodge but much more effective.
3. Negate is absolutely a valid defense, as is Veil of Blades for nightblades. Their status as ultimates does not diminish that fact.
If you're putting points into light armor, you haven't done any of the math...
Gap closers go twice as far as streak.
Learn the damn game already.Edited by Minalan on May 12, 2017 4:45AM1 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
@Minalan
Go back and read carefully every word I wrote. I responded to you in very good faith and you are lucky to have thoughts like this out there, rather than the nerf hammer that will otherwise fall upon your class if you continue stonewalling discussion like this.
Sorcs absolutely have resistance under shields. Impen armor--which need not be light to deal damage--as well as streak, pets, negate, and the highest burst damage in the game.
Sorry I don't care about every 'brilliant' nerf sorc idea from every fool who doesn't know the first thing about the game.
So instead I'll make fun:
LOL light armor mitigation with sharpened weapons. Basic math is so hard.
LOL streak is a mitigation tool.
LOL negate as a defensive CD, it's an ultimate.
I feel so lucky!
@Minalan
Then you are beneath consideration, and everyone crying for sorc nerfs has nothing to fear from you.
/thread.
EDIT: Oh and by the way
1. Sharpened weapons can be mitigated with heavy armor or points in the resistance CP star for Light Armor.
2. Streak mitigates damage by removing you from it and stunning your attacker, similar to roll dodge but much more effective.
3. Negate is absolutely a valid defense, as is Veil of Blades for nightblades. Their status as ultimates does not diminish that fact.
If you're putting points into light armor, you haven't done any of the math...
Gap closers go twice as far as streak.
Learn the damn game already.
Hey man, you just reminded me that I need to get some potatoes when I go out to the supermarket soon. Thank you!0 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭
And who can reasonably be expected to run Major Breach without having to sacrifice for it?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
You just said that as magsorc you're ignoring half of the game rules.
Pardon my lack of clarity. I meant that no matter the shield strength, even if the base damage of the attack is totally absorbed by the shield, the extra crit damage is applied to health.What if shields could not take crit damage, but every time an attack would have been a crit, the leftover damage that could have been is instead applied to the Sorc's health pool and is mitigated by impen, armor, etc. 100% of the crit damage bleeds through, or 75% or what have you.
I do think that shields being uncrittable is fine, but pose this suggestion to those who think such a feature of shielding is too much.
@Tonturri
I think this is already somewhat implemented, unless they changed it some time ago, so it wouldn't change anything.
If the amount of damage your attack deals is greater than the remainder of the shield, then any leftover critical damage will be applied, mitigated by armor and resistances.
Extreme example - say you manage a 50k shield stack. Someone hits you for 10k damage. It crit, so 5k damage is applied to the sorc's health. Shield is still there - now at 40k - but the sorc took 5k damage.
How about... not?
If you want to do that, why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?
Then all of us can die in a couple of hits. And it's a stupid idea.
@Minalan
Allowing only the crit damage through the shield is not at all equivalent to entirely removing resistances. Indeed, this suggestion has far more counterplay in favor of the sorc than does reducing shield duration, shield strength, or increasing the cost of shields.
"Why not allow crit damage to completely bypass block and all armor mitigation?" Because shields have a special relationship to critical damage for which there is no special counter. They are 100% resistant to crit damage. Even the crit reduction of Impen and the Resistant CP star can be countered by the Shadow mundus and the Precise Strikes CP star.
Stopped reading after the first line. Sorcs have NO resistances under that shield. Light armor. Sharpened weapons. Thanks. It is the same thing.
Btw major ward and major resolve from lightning form mitigates sharpened twohander, sorc even have minor versions of those buffs with bound armor so he can buff himself from zero to 6.3k resists while 160CP LA isn't zero, it's 13k resists, lets combine them...aaaaaand 19.3k resist, which is equal to 5HA+2LA
No resists at all and zero(only 5?meh) class-specific healing sources, yeah, can't survive at all
Sharpened and major breach gets rid of both.
Heavy armor still has plenty left. Throw on block, major mending, and vigor, troll king, 3K impen, and rally and your average stam player is doing fine.
And who the heck runs bound armor in PVP? Who puts points into light armor CP? Please stop with the impossible scenarios.
This thread has gone full potato.
Stamblades (who let's be honest, deserve it. Let them have this), 1h/shield builds (locked into that weapon). Stamplars get the Minor version. It's late, but point is Minor Breach isn't a constant thing. While some people might have it, others won't.
I suppose someone could run the Ele Drain from Destro, but I rarely see anyone do that.
As for bound armor, last I checked it still has a place in some full magicka setups.
Streak still functions when you press the button. CC -> Streak away. Or just Streak through someoneGap closers go twice as far as streak.
Edited by Tonturri on May 12, 2017 4:59AM0