Update 13 - Sneak peak notes

ManDraKE

Nifty2g wrote: »

Put a cooldown of 1 second on a proc chance so you can actually react to the incoming damage.

The ideal solution for PvP imo, would be that:

- proc sets can ONLY proc from abilities (no light/heavy attack).
- can't proc more than 1 set per ability activation.

That will prevent combos like LA+Ransack+Bask proc'ing viper+termoscale+widowmaker for example. With those restriction you will only proc 1 set per combo. Same with HA+Incap, you will only proc 1 set, lets say viper, and no velidreth+viper.
Then we can go set by set looking which one needs to be nerfed, but first we need to solve the issue with the mechanics allowing you to instant proc several sets in 1 hit.

raasdal

Ahahahahahahahahaha.

Removing crit entirely from Procs? It will make no difference. In CP campaigns everyone has Impen up over both ears anyway. And in no CP campaign, a Stam Sorc has like 20% crit. So the nerf is not really that big.

Guess im gonna stick with Godmode for next patch as well.

Akimbro

Nifty2g wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You guys are going to make Mr Lambert shove his thumbs in his eyes . We need the pts before we skin this bird .

Don't need PTS to understand that removing CHD modifiers from PVE is a bad direction.

Don't need PTS to understand that making proc sets not crit in PVP isn't going to solve anything - you still wont be able to react fast enough to save yourself with animation canceling, the user now just has to put an execute on his bar and use it after all his stuff procs.

What would be ideal.

Lower the damage of several proc sets that are over performing - velidreth, red mountain, grothdarr, ilambris, viper, poisons etc

Put a cooldown of 1 second on a proc chance so you can actually react to the incoming damage.

This way we won't be making a useless change that in future will be reverted anyway and I don't really want to go a major patch with this kind of balance waiting for it to be changed. Because it's really just changing PVE than it is PVP in ways it doesn't need to.

Yup, or just make the proc damage over time instead of instant. Removing crit is just lazy.

cellobuddy

I doubt kena will take over as a prominent monster set. The sustain is god-awful. Doubt any group has enough mag and stam support to make it work.

Kilandros

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

At least Molag Kena enhances your play style: 1) You have to actively proc it, 2) It increases all skill costs.

Why are people defending sets like Grothdar that you equip and forget? It's just a passive DPS increase. It doesn't enhance play. It requires absolutely 0 thought and skill. At least Kena you have to think about weaving it and then deal with the consequence of the skill cost increase. And as easy as Kena is to manage it's still infinitely more interactive than Grothdar which is just passive damage.

If you're going to have proc sets, make them interesting. This 10% chance on damage proc thing is absurd and lazy.

cellobuddy

If you light weave, kena's also an equip and forget, but with the recent increase to skill costs and the buff to boss health, there's no way anyone can sustain wearing 2 Kena.

GilGalad

Sigtric wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

How is removing crit off of the proc damage messing with the core mechanic? That (insert set here) set is going to still be doing it's tooltip damage. It's not affecting crit off of anything that actually matters (your skills).

Monster sets will still be viable providing their auxiliary set buffs and DPS.

Proc sets are a crutch to begin with.

Ok why is crit and crit dmg a core mechanic in PVE:
There are several different ways to increase your DPS. Using sets that give increase your tooltip dmg, sets that have a dmg proc, or sets that increase your crit valu or percentage (e.g. Very popular TBS with Shadow+Thief). Removing the crit from proc sets affects the different build types differently.
One of the most important buffs in raid groups is major force, increasing the crit dmg by 30%. So for raid groups the dmg nerf for proc sets will be above 50%.

The main point by nifty is that it affects PVE way more than PVP, because of lower crit stats in PVP and the use of impenetrable gear. Removing the crit from proc sets reduces the value of impenetrable.

If they want to nerf proc sets they should better cut the tooltips by 30-50%. That would have the same effect on PVE as removing the crit and a way bigger impact on PVP, since the hardest hits with crit would do the dmg of a noncrit without a tooltip nerf.

Bullitt

That's the dumbest [Snip] they have ever done why would they stop the crit in trials and dungeons that's the dumbest stupidest ignorant thing I've ever seen.

[Edit to remove profanity and bashing]

Nifty2g

Kilandros wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

At least Molag Kena enhances your play style: 1) You have to actively proc it, 2) It increases all skill costs.

Why are people defending sets like Grothdar that you equip and forget? It's just a passive DPS increase. It doesn't enhance play. It requires absolutely 0 thought and skill. At least Kena you have to think about weaving it and then deal with the consequence of the skill cost increase. And as easy as Kena is to manage it's still infinitely more interactive than Grothdar which is just passive damage.

If you're going to have proc sets, make them interesting. This 10% chance on damage proc thing is absurd and lazy.

I've already said to nerf the damage accordingly not to completely shatter it. You can't sit there and say this is a good change for the game. Undaunted Sets are way more important than what they are about to do to them.

Molag Kena is pretty easy to proc, you don't have to think about it at all, at least you shouldn't. I don't see how it enhances your playstyle.

With good healers the skill cost doesnt really matter.

AshTal

I don't think the Proc sets changes will do much in PvP and will just annoy PvE people
Hopefully we will be seeing a lot more balancing changes.

arkansas_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

So,

You give in to the final whinage about AoE caps from pvpers who only refuse to work with others...
Rip big pvp battles.

For some odd reason you nerf one of the few cool things to work with...poisons...
Rip players who think.

Nerfing "proc" sets? Never cared about since 50 players with procs sets dies to me just as good as 50 drunk midgets.

Nothing about new skills, areas, possible races and CONTENT?

"HI, we are making ESO even easier so console players will like it more!"

I am still here because of the community and friends I've shed blood with over the soon 3 years I've been a subscriber. Is my kind of playstyle, where challenge and player SKILL matters not really interesting for ZoS anymore?

I was hoping that Tamriel one was just a bad choice of direction. Is this really the "new" eso? Easy, easy, easy, fast, dumbed down?

Please, give me a reason to not stop my subscription.

If ZoS really wants to kick me out,

• add a global AH,
• scale everyone with everything so no one is different
• make it possible to buy level 90ies...sorry, level 50 chars in the crownstore
• And make everything account bound so there is no reason what so ever to play more then once

Please do this, so I can leave.

Says ZOS is trying to remove player skill from the game, yet is in favor of AOE caps. Lol.

Sigtric

Nifty2g wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

How is removing crit off of the proc damage messing with the core mechanic? That (insert set here) set is going to still be doing it's tooltip damage. It's not affecting crit off of anything that actually matters (your skills).

Monster sets will still be viable providing their auxiliary set buffs and DPS.

Proc sets are a crutch to begin with.

A core mechanic of PVE is to have decently high crit chance and then building your group in support of CHD (critical hit damage) multipliers including; Guard (Minor force), Trap Beast (Minor force), Warhorn (Major Force), Restoration Ultimate (Major Force), Piercing Spear (Templar Passive with 10% CHD), Shadow Mundus Stone (CHD% increase)

So yes with that amount of CHD multipliers, by removing crit chance you are removing a core mechanic from the game, which is in my opinion a very stupid change to make. As majority of these are used in PVE to create a group synergy.

No, proc sets will be useless in PVE now for the most part, majority of people will be using Molag Kena for their damage increases.

lol omg

it is only crit off the top of PROC'D damage only

/end of the world

ZoM_Head

This is a very weak excuse to remove crits completely from all proc sets (monster sets or otherwise) when it is well known specifically the stamina proc sets that are causing all the issues in PvP only.

Why do you think it is a good idea to hit magicka users in both PvP and PvE due to this? what is the logic?

This is not balance, or anywhere near it, we rely on crits and a huge list of group support in trails to reach competitive times and numbers, and the majority of players in PvE raids are magicka based, yet they (myself included) will get punished damage wise because of a combination of STAMINA proc sets being very powerful in PvP?

Ever considered lowering their damage? We do not use such proc sets in trails, competitively anways. Or maybe increases physical resistance for 5+ light armour? those are just two ideas given in less than 1 minute, you have so much time to think of other ways to balance this properly instead of just saying "we are removing crit from proc sets in PvP and PvE".

I have been looking forward for update 13 for sometime since my Light armored magicka DK has been suffering every since update 5 kicked in with the massive nerf to dragon blood, scales, conderstorm, banner and so on.

I WAS hoping stamina would get a fair nerf for pvp, but now...it will just slightly make a difference if you choose this path.

I still have some hope you guys at Zenimax can turn this around and actually give us an update you really worked and thought it through.

Sigtric

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

How is removing crit off of the proc damage messing with the core mechanic? That (insert set here) set is going to still be doing it's tooltip damage. It's not affecting crit off of anything that actually matters (your skills).

Monster sets will still be viable providing their auxiliary set buffs and DPS.

Proc sets are a crutch to begin with.

Ok why is crit and crit dmg a core mechanic in PVE:
There are several different ways to increase your DPS. Using sets that give increase your tooltip dmg, sets that have a dmg proc, or sets that increase your crit valu or percentage (e.g. Very popular TBS with Shadow+Thief). Removing the crit from proc sets affects the different build types differently.
One of the most important buffs in raid groups is major force, increasing the crit dmg by 30%. So for raid groups the dmg nerf for proc sets will be above 50%.

The main point by nifty is that it affects PVE way more than PVP, because of lower crit stats in PVP and the use of impenetrable gear. Removing the crit from proc sets reduces the value of impenetrable.

If they want to nerf proc sets they should better cut the tooltips by 30-50%. That would have the same effect on PVE as removing the crit and a way bigger impact on PVP, since the hardest hits with crit would do the dmg of a noncrit without a tooltip nerf.

crit and crit damage aren't going away. It only means that something like a red mountain proc isn't going to crit when it hits.

I run TBS on my stam sorc with thief+shadow and this is only going to affect the damage proc'd off of my monster set. I am not worried in the least bit

Rohamad_Ali

So caught up in the hype I missed the updated PvP rewards . Thank you !

GilGalad

Another easy approach to reduce burst dmg would be to change procs to dots. Make viper a 4 second dot and you achieve way more than by removing the ability to crit.

Sharee

[nevermind]

Sugaroverdose

@ZOS_RichLambert if you removed crit damage and crit rate scaling, why not to deal with character penetration which is also should not affect sets? #ProctardDeathHype

runagate

Nifty2g wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

At least Molag Kena enhances your play style: 1) You have to actively proc it, 2) It increases all skill costs.

Why are people defending sets like Grothdar that you equip and forget? It's just a passive DPS increase. It doesn't enhance play. It requires absolutely 0 thought and skill. At least Kena you have to think about weaving it and then deal with the consequence of the skill cost increase. And as easy as Kena is to manage it's still infinitely more interactive than Grothdar which is just passive damage.

If you're going to have proc sets, make them interesting. This 10% chance on damage proc thing is absurd and lazy.

I've already said to nerf the damage accordingly not to completely shatter it. You can't sit there and say this is a good change for the game. Undaunted Sets are way more important than what they are about to do to them.

Molag Kena is pretty easy to proc, you don't have to think about it at all, at least you shouldn't. I don't see how it enhances your playstyle.

With good healers the skill cost doesnt really matter.

I think perhaps what people don't realize when you in particular are posting, @Nifty2g is that content like vMoL absolutely requires these mechanics. There isn't really an alternative way to finagle the groupwide numbers.

Paraflex

Oh no my proc set training wheels have to come off next patch...I guess skill will count for something

Publius_Scipio

People sure love crit chance. Especially the crit specifically associated with proc sets in particular.......

Nifty2g

Sigtric wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

How is removing crit off of the proc damage messing with the core mechanic? That (insert set here) set is going to still be doing it's tooltip damage. It's not affecting crit off of anything that actually matters (your skills).

Monster sets will still be viable providing their auxiliary set buffs and DPS.

Proc sets are a crutch to begin with.

Ok why is crit and crit dmg a core mechanic in PVE:
There are several different ways to increase your DPS. Using sets that give increase your tooltip dmg, sets that have a dmg proc, or sets that increase your crit valu or percentage (e.g. Very popular TBS with Shadow+Thief). Removing the crit from proc sets affects the different build types differently.
One of the most important buffs in raid groups is major force, increasing the crit dmg by 30%. So for raid groups the dmg nerf for proc sets will be above 50%.

The main point by nifty is that it affects PVE way more than PVP, because of lower crit stats in PVP and the use of impenetrable gear. Removing the crit from proc sets reduces the value of impenetrable.

If they want to nerf proc sets they should better cut the tooltips by 30-50%. That would have the same effect on PVE as removing the crit and a way bigger impact on PVP, since the hardest hits with crit would do the dmg of a noncrit without a tooltip nerf.

crit and crit damage aren't going away. It only means that something like a red mountain proc isn't going to crit when it hits.

I run TBS on my stam sorc with thief+shadow and this is only going to affect the damage proc'd off of my monster set. I am not worried in the least bit

0% Crit chance means 0% Critical Hit Damage modifiers. Yes it is going away for a lot of sets (anything with a proc damage chance.) This includes everything that was recently buffed to now be utterly useless, and almost all of the undaunted sets are now going to be useless apart from probably 3 (Kena, Ilambris, Grothdarr) and Velidreth is STILL going to cause so much damage in PVP that this whole change won't matter. Because the issue in PVP is no reaction time, which a simple cooldown per proc would solve.

So they add in content (Undaunted Dailies) and now making their content useless with a change like this in PVE as there will be a lot better options. I can tell you don't really PVE to understand the full effect these modifiers have on these sets.

It's a very big unnecessary change.

Sigtric

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

People sure love crit chance. Especially the crit specifically associated with proc sets in particular.......

Sugaroverdose

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

People sure love crit chance. Especially the crit specifically associated with proc sets in particular.......

When hands grows from anywhere but not from shoulders, you'll love any broken mechanics which allows to win by hitting random button

Akimbro

Paraflex wrote: »

Oh no my proc set training wheels have to come off next patch...I guess skill will count for something

Maybe PVP-wise...but in PVE there's no such training wheels. You learn the mechanics or you die. Proc sets won't carry you through HM trials...

Stebarnz

pvp no difference at all.
pve all proc set users dps - 5k

Ive played since beta and going on history i knew they would f' it up, cant believe people are surprised.

Why not just have only 1 set proc at a time in the global cool down window for a start? then assess and change as feedback comes in.

Jaronking

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

It's not the actual % DPS decrease for PVE - it's the fact that PVE gets nerfed because of PVP whining and crap that annoys me.

I know this may sound crazy, but maybe proc sets are over performing in both PVE and PVP.

Maybe the blame should shift from only pvpers to players pulling 60k+ dps in pve land, burning through most mechanics. There's plenty of blame to go around. I believe @leepalmer95 said it already. It'll be a massive 3% dps decrease if you're running 5-3-2 with a monster set.

Do I think it's going to fix proc sets in pvp? No. The stacking of proc sets will still be an issue.

Do I think it's a step in the right direction? Yes. Toning down the damage done by proc sets is a response to the complaints that have all of us have seen over the past few months. It may not be the change that most of us wanted, but it is a change, nonetheless.

I'm interested to see the rest of the patch notesn specifically interested the possible changes to heavy armor and the destro ulti.

CC: @Jaronking @texassob @ZOS_RichLambert

Edit: grammar and autocorrect

Pug lives matter so we won't really fix proc sets #Lambet.

@Ron_Burgundy_79

technohic

Nifty2g wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

How is removing crit off of the proc damage messing with the core mechanic? That (insert set here) set is going to still be doing it's tooltip damage. It's not affecting crit off of anything that actually matters (your skills).

Monster sets will still be viable providing their auxiliary set buffs and DPS.

Proc sets are a crutch to begin with.

Ok why is crit and crit dmg a core mechanic in PVE:
There are several different ways to increase your DPS. Using sets that give increase your tooltip dmg, sets that have a dmg proc, or sets that increase your crit valu or percentage (e.g. Very popular TBS with Shadow+Thief). Removing the crit from proc sets affects the different build types differently.
One of the most important buffs in raid groups is major force, increasing the crit dmg by 30%. So for raid groups the dmg nerf for proc sets will be above 50%.

The main point by nifty is that it affects PVE way more than PVP, because of lower crit stats in PVP and the use of impenetrable gear. Removing the crit from proc sets reduces the value of impenetrable.

If they want to nerf proc sets they should better cut the tooltips by 30-50%. That would have the same effect on PVE as removing the crit and a way bigger impact on PVP, since the hardest hits with crit would do the dmg of a noncrit without a tooltip nerf.

crit and crit damage aren't going away. It only means that something like a red mountain proc isn't going to crit when it hits.

I run TBS on my stam sorc with thief+shadow and this is only going to affect the damage proc'd off of my monster set. I am not worried in the least bit

0% Crit chance means 0% Critical Hit Damage modifiers. Yes it is going away for a lot of sets (anything with a proc damage chance.) This includes everything that was recently buffed to now be utterly useless, and almost all of the undaunted sets are now going to be useless apart from probably 3 (Kena, Ilambris, Grothdarr) and Velidreth is STILL going to cause so much damage in PVP that this whole change won't matter. Because the issue in PVP is no reaction time, which a simple cooldown per proc would solve.

So they add in content (Undaunted Dailies) and now making their content useless with a change like this in PVE as there will be a lot better options. I can tell you don't really PVE to understand the full effect these modifiers have on these sets.

It's a very big unnecessary change.

I think I am with you on this. I don't really care about how PvEers use it and they could keep their crit. I just do not like the general idea of auto-hits that are unavoidable in PvP coming all at once. I don't know how just making them not crit will help that.

Think I would rather there be a tell that they are coming and allow for a block/dodge or whatever chance to mitigate them. NPCs are generally too dumb, and so are a lot of players; but at least give humans a chance to react.

AhPook_Is_Here

The proc set change are a bad idea, they should still crit in PVE, just not in PVP. They will be useless in PVE as most builds incorporate crit. I'm sure you guys can figure out a way to make it work this way. Should be easy to tie it to battle spirit buff, add another field called "proccritdebuff" if battle spirit is active your proccritdebuff is *0 crit on procs if battlespirit is inactive your proccritdebuff is *1.

datgladiatah

The procset change does nothing to stop maelstrom weapons from overperforming far above anything else. This makes it even more necessary to build around maelstrom