Update 13 - Sneak peak notes

ManwithBeard9

nraner81 wrote: »

hello another game!
goodbye VMA grind and grind for nerf!!!

can i have your stuff?

Nifty2g

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

I still don't think the nerf will be enough for pvp, but sets like grothdarr and ilambris are too strong at the moment for pve.

Your a top pve'er yourself so you noticed why the dps meta shifted to magicka was mainly because of sets like these. The dmg they bring is insane and it's aoe damage.

Besides you were all managing to do vet hard mode trials before proc sets became so strong pve wise, you should be fine. we don't even know what other changes zos made yet either.

Plus the cp cap may increase which will lower the dps effect on it's own.

I agree it's strong but this is too much, a damage nerf would be fine but removing a crit chance almost renders every undaunted set in PVE useless. - A nice damage adjustments on those sets would have been perfect. And then make it so you cant crit players.

No crit means no CHD multipliers so take Shadow, Minor Force and Major Force out, this is a key mechanic in most groups to create a synergy with CHD to keep it up for your group to do the most damage.

I think the undaunted sets deserve a nerf specifically ilambris and grothdarr, but what happens to the old sets that got buffed up for being too weak, they are going to be complete trash.

Was the CHD multipliers totally ignored or something, did that fly over everyones heads?

I just don't want another Molag Kena meta with everyone running that in PVE, cause that is the likely scenario that's going to happen.

---

And really, removing crit chance is going to do *** all for PVP you're still going to get killed by proc sets unless they make an actual cool down per proc. Red Mountain, Velidreth, Viper and a poison will kill you without the crit chances and just the CP increases with it.
Maybe you could put an ICD on proc chances

Kilandros

Honestly proc damage sets should just be removed entirely as they don't enhance gameplay in the slightest.

Utility proc sets (e.g., Bloodspawn and Lich) are fine. Damage proc sets have no place in this game.

SodanTok

Akimbro wrote: »

@sodantokb16_ESO @Sugaroverdose

Okay but what was the goal? Burst potential. Don't lose sight of this.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential.

Removing crit does not change the burst potential when people can wear up to 3 proc sets that do instant damage...

That's why I'm saying the difference between crit vs. non-crit on a full impen target doesn't really change the burst potential. You're still hitting your target for loads of instant damage. That's the issue. Not the crit.

Im not saying it was ideal change, but it was still helpful change and how much will tell direct experience with it. Dont forget changing ceilling of burst potential (while keeping the floor same) still has direct impact on average burst (which is the burst you experience).
Also the burst is still important in the game. You cannot just lower the burst and call it a day. Surviving is at its highest peak too.

Overall, bigger problem with procset was (imo) that armor was greatly contributing to fights and that will probably stay same unfortunately.

Strider_Roshin

PvP players typically wear all impenetrable. The change to proc sets affect PvE players way more than PvP.

Amorpho

I seriously don't understand why ZOS needs to remove crit damage from proc sets in PVE. Nobody ever asked for or complained about it. Limit that change to PVP or tone down their overall damage in PVP but don't make the mistake of treating PVE like u would PVP, they are 2 completely different worlds!

texassob

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

It's not the actual % DPS decrease for PVE - it's the fact that PVE gets nerfed because of PVP whining and crap that annoys me.

I know this may sound crazy, but maybe proc sets are over performing in both PVE and PVP.

Maybe the blame should shift from only pvpers to players pulling 60k+ dps in pve land, burning through most mechanics. There's plenty of blame to go around. I believe @leepalmer95 said it already. It'll be a massive 3% dps decrease if you're running 5-3-2 with a monster set.

Do I think it's going to fix proc sets in pvp? No. The stacking of proc sets will still be an issue.

Do I think it's a step in the right direction? Yes. Toning down the damage done by proc sets is a response to the complaints that have all of us have seen over the past few months. It may not be the change that most of us wanted, but it is a change, nonetheless.

I'm interested to see the rest of the patch notesn specifically interested the possible changes to heavy armor and the destro ulti.

CC: @Jaronking @texassob @ZOS_RichLambert

Edit: grammar and autocorrect

i agree hopefully heavy armor gets addressed as well as magic

itscompton

@ZOS_RichLambert

As a magic based character I don't have a lot of burst from class/weapon skills like stam players do, nor as a Templar can I get anywhere near the 70-80% crit rate NB's sport, so there are a lot of people that I wouldn't be able to ever take down if didn't have the opportunity to get lucky enough for Skoria, with my 25% chance, to crit at the same time that I hit them with something else like an Ice Comet. Punishing those of us that only use one damage proc set at a time and have low crit chances to begin with doesn't seem fair when the real problem is the people wearing two or three sets that all go off within a second of each other and all crit because they have a 75% crit rate. Perhaps there is some way you could change the condition of the Crit nerf to apply only when a character is wearing multiple proc sets? Or cap the crit chance for proc sets at 25% so getting one critial proc is still possible but getting three in 2 seconds isn't.

Toc de Malsvi

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Cogo

So,

You give in to the final whinage about AoE caps from pvpers who only refuse to work with others...
Rip big pvp battles.

For some odd reason you nerf one of the few cool things to work with...poisons...
Rip players who think.

Nerfing "proc" sets? Never cared about that, since 50 players with procs sets dies to me just as good as 50 drunk midgets.

Nothing about new skills, areas, possible races and CONTENT?

"HI, we are making ESO even easier so console players will like it more!"

I am still here because of the community and friends I've shed blood with over the soon 3 years I've been a subscriber. Is my kind of playstyle, where challenge and player SKILL matters not really interesting for ZoS anymore?

I was hoping that Tamriel one was just a bad choice of direction. Is this really the "new" eso? Easy, easy, easy, fast, dumbed down?

Please, give me a reason to not stop my subscription.

If ZoS really wants to kick me out,

• add a global AH,
• scale everyone with everything so no one is different
• make it possible to buy level 90ies...sorry, level 50 chars in the crownstore
• And make everything account bound so there is no reason what so ever to play more then once

Please do this, so I can leave.

Toc de Malsvi

Akimbro wrote: »

@sodantokb16_ESO @Sugaroverdose

Okay but what was the goal? Burst potential. Don't lose sight of this.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential.

Removing crit does not change the burst potential when people can wear up to 3 proc sets that do instant damage...

That's why I'm saying the difference between crit vs. non-crit on a full impen target doesn't really change the burst potential. You're still hitting your target for loads of instant damage. That's the issue. Not the crit.

Should be roughly a 8% nerf to max spike from crits that are removed. Multiple proc sets will still exist they are getting a nerf though.

SublimeSparo

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Lol at the picture- look closely- without crits, red mountain still critted. GG ZOS

raglau

My initial reaction to the proc-set nerf was of course, "great, the PvP man-babies have once again cried their way to a blanket nerf. When will ZOS learn to separate the church and state?"

But I think that a nerf on proc-sets for PvE is intended behaviour. The thing with the proc-sets is that they are gimmicky, but they are very potent and for end-game PvE content they have become indispensible. I actually do not like them; I am a 8/9 trait crafter and to me the 'Elder Scrolls way', is to craft your own gear and I have invested a lot of time into making sure I can make the best. Crafting is an intrinsic part of my game experience, but then along comes a slew of proc-sets, rendering my hard-earned skills useless. I now succumb and wear a monster set on 2 of my chars and a 5 piece proc-set on another. I have to be somewhat useful to my groups, after all.

In lieu of crafting being properly sorted (which will take time), a crit nerf on proc-sets deals with the runaway DPS spike element and may again make the top-end crafted sets - and some of the ill-favoured proc-sets - comparable in some cases, and I think this is intended by ZOS in order to increase variance of play choices.

Nifty2g

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

Sugaroverdose

Akimbro wrote: »

@sodantokb16_ESO @Sugaroverdose

Okay but what was the goal? Burst potential. Don't lose sight of this.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential.

Removing crit does not change the burst potential when people can wear up to 3 proc sets that do instant damage...

That's why I'm saying the difference between crit vs. non-crit on a full impen target doesn't really change the burst potential. You're still hitting your target for loads of instant damage. That's the issue. Not the crit.

Get procset damage, then multiply it by (1000/(3200/50))%+12%+12%+22%=162%, then multiply by battle spirit 0.5, what number do you have for single set?
Viper sting - 5443,2
Velidreth - 8359,2
Widowmaker - 6269,4
Tremorscale - 5265

What damage deals with crit viper+veli+widow? 20071(with plain 20% CP resistance = 16056,8) add bow LA+Poison injection+gap closer+Dawnbreaker/incap+execute=instankill(in fact you don't even need to wear widowmaker vs most of the builds even in HA)

UPD: i had wrong number in calculations and forget to add plain ~20% damage reduction via CP

Rohamad_Ali

You guys are going to make Mr Lambert shove his thumbs in his eyes . We need the pts before we skin this bird .

Patouf

That is ***, ZoS does not know how works the game.

If only I could thumb down these notes.

luen79rwb17_ESO

This should have been discussed like 2 months ago and not 1-2 weeks before PTS and 1,5 months before update launch...

Just make it non crit on players / battle spirit status only since some PVPers seem happy with this change, and don't mess with PVE. Nobody was complaining about PVE until this thread...

ManwithBeard9

Patouf wrote: »

That is ***, ZoS does not know how works the game.

If only I could thumb down these notes.

ZOS has employment opportunities open if you wish to try your hand at the game development business.

OrphanHelgen

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Why is endless hail lower max hit on the picture? So the maelstrom enchant are affected as well?

Nifty2g

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You guys are going to make Mr Lambert shove his thumbs in his eyes . We need the pts before we skin this bird .

Don't need PTS to understand that making proc sets not crit in PVP isn't going to solve anything - you still wont be able to react fast enough to save yourself with animation canceling, the user now just has to put an execute on his bar and use it after all his stuff procs.

What would be ideal.

Lower the damage of several proc sets that are over performing - velidreth, red mountain, grothdarr, ilambris, viper, poisons etc

Put a cooldown of 1 second on a proc chance so you can actually react to the incoming damage.

This way we won't be making a useless change that in future will be reverted anyway and I don't really want to go a major patch with this kind of balance waiting for it to be changed. Because it's really just changing PVE than it is PVP in ways it doesn't need to.

Joy_Division

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

I think this is a good point.

kongkim

Think it looks good And im mostly a PVE.

Shalnark

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Yep I use impen - even with 7 impen, crits still hurt. On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from my internal testing. (using Viper, Red Mountain and Kra on my stam sorc) I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

funny to see ZOS using combat metrics for internal testing though! LMAO

Sugaroverdose

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

This should have been discussed like 2 months ago and not 1-2 weeks before PTS and 1,5 months before update launch...

Just make it non crit on players / battle spirit status only since some PVPers seem happy with this change, and don't mess with PVE. Nobody was complaining about PVE until this thread...

Did you said @Alcast ?

Toc de Malsvi

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Why is endless hail lower max hit on the picture? So the maelstrom enchant are affected as well?

Still showing a ton of crits for Hail so I don't think that was the issue, perhaps timing and chance. Minor forces uptime dropped for the no crit one, only had 90% uptime.

Sigtric

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

How is removing crit off of the proc damage messing with the core mechanic? That (insert set here) set is going to still be doing it's tooltip damage. It's not affecting crit off of anything that actually matters (your skills).

Monster sets will still be viable providing their auxiliary set buffs and DPS.

Proc sets are a crutch to begin with.

Rohamad_Ali

Nifty2g wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You guys are going to make Mr Lambert shove his thumbs in his eyes . We need the pts before we skin this bird .

Don't need PTS to understand that removing CHD modifiers from PVE is a bad direction.

Don't need PTS to understand that making proc sets not crit in PVP isn't going to solve anything - you still wont be able to react fast enough to save yourself with animation canceling, the user now just has to put an execute on his bar and use it after all his stuff procs.

What would be ideal.

Lower the damage of several proc sets that are over performing - velidreth, red mountain, grothdarr, ilambris, viper, poisons etc

Put a cooldown of 1 second on a proc chance so you can actually react to the incoming damage.

This way we won't be making a useless change that in future will be reverted anyway and I don't really want to go a major patch with this kind of balance waiting for it to be changed. Because it's really just changing PVE than it is PVP in ways it doesn't need to.

Ya I know some of you have all the answers without all the patch notes and complete list of changes . I on the other hand do not so I'll wait for those . Might be somethings in there important .

xaraan

Well, that's not the way to "fix" proc sets. The problem wasn't burst of one type of proc, the problem is people wearing 2-3 sets and getting burst b/c they all proc at the same time with their attack, so you get an attack for say 5K damage, and then 2-3 procs on top of that for thousands each. Eliminating crit won't make that go away and just break the sets for use in PvE. Global cool down on procs, so you can only have so much proc'ing at a time (as in one proc at at time) would have been the way to go, which only a thousand people recommended. (Edit: this also, in a 'round about way - nerfs impen and makes it less useful.)

I guess the AoE cap changes are for the better, but I think when you are talking bout any attack being able to hit 60+ people balled up, some other actions need to be taken to prevent that kind of ball group in a lag intensive pvp zone.

Nifty2g

Sigtric wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Is this affecting the procs of enchants as well, as maelstrom bow the bonus dmg tics or just a simple poison dmg enchant?

Nifty2g wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I feel this is another "one step forward, two steps back" type of deal. While I agree it is good for PVP I feel as if this is impacting PVE in ways it shouldn't. And honestly, I don't think removing the crit component is going to fix the issue for PVP, but it sure is going to fix and break a lot of the PVE gameplay.

PVE is in a great place right now, crit matters a lot, why remove one of the core things that make up PVE gameplay? Instead of just making use of that battle spirit passive to balance things within Cyrodill. This just further proves you can't balance a game for PVE and PVP espeically this far into the game and the changes being added.

On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from

That's per person, imagine a 7% nerf for all 8 DPS in your raid -- that is quite large.

All in all I think this change is barely going to change anything in Cyrodill like it's meant to but its going to be pretty awful in PVE, and I think you guys should look for different ways to balance it. And keep Cyrodill balance out of PVE. We should have moved away from this in 2015.

(Why not make it so they can't crit on players only???)

It's 7-8% overall dps loss using 3 sets. On an actual end game trial build with 1 proc set, it'll be like 3% dmg loss overall, plus the cp cap may increase so the actual dps loss shouldn't be noticeable.

Where are you getting the numbers from, Grothdarr is doing upwards of 10% of your DPS, while the average PVE player runs around with 65-75% crit chance (more with raid buffs)

Not to mention minor force AND major force is not going to work on these sets anymore this is upwards of a 6% damage nerf per player from using these sets.

I think a lot of people are missing the point on how awful a decision this is when its completely changing PVE more than PVP.

Lambert posted a parse with Kraugh, Red Mountain, Viper. 78% crit, nearly 100% uptime on minor force and 30% uptime on warhorn.



As I stated to another poster, perhaps Grothdarr and Ilambris were over performing?

Grothdarr and Ilambris are strong but they don't need this much of a nerf, infact none of the undaunted sets needs this much of a nerf. Are you forgetting the patch they buffed them because they were too weak. Now they will all be useless.

That screenshot does not include Major Force uptime or Shadow Mundus Stone.

I do not think this was a smart decision because for 1) This wont fix PVP unless there is an ICD 2) It *** PVE over pretty largely when you take into consideration of all the other monster sets that are not as good.

Welcome back Molag Kena meta, I did not miss you.


You're also not helping by missing the point and saying it needed a nerf, do you honestly think it needed this much of a nerf for PVE? Ripping core mechanics out of sets and applying that into PVE. Cmon, we're better than that as a community to let this big of a change impact the content this much.
Balance the sets properly instead of half assing them with a PVP change to make them useless. Go over them and reduce their damage, then handle the PVP situation as well.

How is removing crit off of the proc damage messing with the core mechanic? That (insert set here) set is going to still be doing it's tooltip damage. It's not affecting crit off of anything that actually matters (your skills).

Monster sets will still be viable providing their auxiliary set buffs and DPS.

Proc sets are a crutch to begin with.

A core mechanic of PVE is to have decently high crit chance and then building your group in support of CHD (critical hit damage) multipliers including; Guard (Minor force), Trap Beast (Minor force), Warhorn (Major Force), Restoration Ultimate (Major Force), Piercing Spear (Templar Passive with 10% CHD), Shadow Mundus Stone (CHD% increase)

So yes with that amount of CHD multipliers, by removing crit chance you are removing a core mechanic from the game, which is in my opinion a very stupid change to make. As majority of these are used in PVE to create a group synergy.

No, proc sets will be useless in PVE now for the most part, majority of people will be using Molag Kena for their damage increases.