Scrub mentality in group dungeons

Osteos

I too have noticed a lot of people just light attacking everything. Especially with the bow. Go do a crowded dolmen and that's all you hear.

Prof_Bawbag

You get bad teachers and bad pupils. No revelations to be had other than gamers being gamers. That said, at least you had the decency to attempt to offer out advice rather than just act like an ass too.

I'm not great and I'd probably be "that guy" within a semi experienced group to go down more often than a pair of knickers on a ...

I seriously don't get the whole thing about the continuous heavy and light attacks when using staffs. I get they can be beneficial, for example, a heavy restoration attack fills my magika, but that's where my heavy use of it begins and ends. My offensive skills do more damage and most of those have a lower cast time than a heavy restoration attack as do my other skills. Most people doing this *** can't even weave properly.

Nax

Oh my goodness do I have a similar story from last night. The group finder placed me with a Tank over 500 CP, one DD just over 300 CP, and the other DD just over 200. I was the healer, at the CP cap, not that it matters. The Tank mostly knew what he was doing, but the DDs were another story. One of them was a stam NB or DK (I don't remember) using DW and Bow, and the other was a Sorc using... wait for it... Destro and 2H. Now, you're probably thinking that the Sorc must've done little to no damage at all, considering the weapons he chose to use... Wrong! Of the two DDs, he did most of the damage, while the other dude spammed Steel Tornado with light attacks in between while occasionally switching to his bow bar to apply buffs and caltrops. And when I say spammed Steel Tornado, I mean for single target boss fights as well.

Anyway, needless to say, the dungeon was a bit of a grind, but we made it through to the last boss... Until it started to spawn adds. I kid you not, the spin-to-win spamming DD then proceeded to light attack every single add INSTEAD of spinning to win, and with the low damage output, the continuous spawn of adds, and the tank dying to a one-shot, we wiped.

At that point I had about enough, so I asked, "Hey, why are you just spamming Steel Tornado on the boss? You should try throwing other attacks like Poison Injection, Rending Slashes and Endless Hail in too, and using a single target attack skill on the boss. Save your AOE for the adds."

This guy then PULLED THE BOSS, stopped fighting after about five seconds, and said "Are you blind? I'm light attack weaving in between. And my steel tornado does 20k dps while my flurry does 18k."

And just to throw it out there, I was wearing fully upgraded SPC and Aether, and so was already buffing him like crazy... I got a bit more annoyed at this point and stated this fact, which, hey, perhaps wasn't the politest way to go about saying it, but I digress.

This dude next typed out his rotation in chat (which, surprise surprise, consisted of spin to win, class buff, caltrops and light attacks), said "This is a joke", and left the group... all while the poor tank and other DD are still in combat, having chipped away at 3% of the boss's health while this conversation went on, bless them!

In this guy's mind I had completely no clue what I was talking about. I mean, I'm not the the best DD in the game, but I do grasp that spamming an AOE skill on a single target boss fight is not the way to go. Some people simply refuse to be helped.

Dubhliam

Nax wrote: »

Oh my goodness do I have a similar story from last night. The group finder placed me with a Tank over 500 CP, one DD just over 300 CP, and the other DD just over 200. I was the healer, at the CP cap, not that it matters. The Tank mostly knew what he was doing, but the DDs were another story. One of them was a stam NB or DK (I don't remember) using DW and Bow, and the other was a Sorc using... wait for it... Destro and 2H. Now, you're probably thinking that the Sorc must've done little to no damage at all, considering the weapons he chose to use... Wrong! Of the two DDs, he did most of the damage, while the other dude spammed Steel Tornado with light attacks in between while occasionally switching to his bow bar to apply buffs and caltrops. And when I say spammed Steel Tornado, I mean for single target boss fights as well.

Anyway, needless to say, the dungeon was a bit of a grind, but we made it through to the last boss... Until it started to spawn adds. I kid you not, the spin-to-win spamming DD then proceeded to light attack every single add INSTEAD of spinning to win, and with the low damage output, the continuous spawn of adds, and the tank dying to a one-shot, we wiped.

At that point I had about enough, so I asked, "Hey, why are you just spamming Steel Tornado on the boss? You should try throwing other attacks like Poison Injection, Rending Slashes and Endless Hail in too, and using a single target attack skill on the boss. Save your AOE for the adds."

This guy then PULLED THE BOSS, stopped fighting after about five seconds, and said "Are you blind? I'm light attack weaving in between. And my steel tornado does 20k dps while my flurry does 18k."

And just to throw it out there, I was wearing fully upgraded SPC and Aether, and so was already buffing him like crazy... I got a bit more annoyed at this point and stated this fact, which, hey, perhaps wasn't the politest way to go about saying it, but I digress.

This dude next typed out his rotation in chat (which, surprise surprise, consisted of spin to win, class buff, caltrops and light attacks), said "This is a joke", and left the group... all while the poor tank and other DD are still in combat, having chipped away at 3% of the boss's health while this conversation went on, bless them!

In this guy's mind I had completely no clue what I was talking about. I mean, I'm not the the best DD in the game, but I know that spamming an AOE skill on a single target boss fight is not the way to go. Some people simply refuse to be helped.

Oh yeah, this reminds me.
Did I mention that the destro resto Sorc had the Hurricane Morph?

Pandorii

Dubhliam wrote: »

Nax wrote: »

Oh my goodness do I have a similar story from last night. The group finder placed me with a Tank over 500 CP, one DD just over 300 CP, and the other DD just over 200. I was the healer, at the CP cap, not that it matters. The Tank mostly knew what he was doing, but the DDs were another story. One of them was a stam NB or DK (I don't remember) using DW and Bow, and the other was a Sorc using... wait for it... Destro and 2H. Now, you're probably thinking that the Sorc must've done little to no damage at all, considering the weapons he chose to use... Wrong! Of the two DDs, he did most of the damage, while the other dude spammed Steel Tornado with light attacks in between while occasionally switching to his bow bar to apply buffs and caltrops. And when I say spammed Steel Tornado, I mean for single target boss fights as well.

Anyway, needless to say, the dungeon was a bit of a grind, but we made it through to the last boss... Until it started to spawn adds. I kid you not, the spin-to-win spamming DD then proceeded to light attack every single add INSTEAD of spinning to win, and with the low damage output, the continuous spawn of adds, and the tank dying to a one-shot, we wiped.

At that point I had about enough, so I asked, "Hey, why are you just spamming Steel Tornado on the boss? You should try throwing other attacks like Poison Injection, Rending Slashes and Endless Hail in too, and using a single target attack skill on the boss. Save your AOE for the adds."

This guy then PULLED THE BOSS, stopped fighting after about five seconds, and said "Are you blind? I'm light attack weaving in between. And my steel tornado does 20k dps while my flurry does 18k."

And just to throw it out there, I was wearing fully upgraded SPC and Aether, and so was already buffing him like crazy... I got a bit more annoyed at this point and stated this fact, which, hey, perhaps wasn't the politest way to go about saying it, but I digress.

This dude next typed out his rotation in chat (which, surprise surprise, consisted of spin to win, class buff, caltrops and light attacks), said "This is a joke", and left the group... all while the poor tank and other DD are still in combat, having chipped away at 3% of the boss's health while this conversation went on, bless them!

In this guy's mind I had completely no clue what I was talking about. I mean, I'm not the the best DD in the game, but I know that spamming an AOE skill on a single target boss fight is not the way to go. Some people simply refuse to be helped.

Oh yeah, this reminds me.
Did I mention that the destro resto Sorc had the Hurricane Morph?

That sounds like a hybrid build to me. Hybrid builds can work. They're just naturally inferior to pure builds thanks to ZOS. They have their place, and group dungeons really isn't one of them. However, a fully golded optimized hybrid can potentially out DPS an unskilled undergeared pure build with a bad rotation. =D

code65536

I see groups like this all too often, unfortunately. And it's gotten worse now that the Group Finder is easier to use and more rewarding. This is the reason why all my tanks are gear-swap tanks--if I am in a group where the DPS is too low, I'll just swap to my DPS gear and leave them tankless (which is just fine for normal dungeons) or go DPS with a sword-and-board and taunt on my off-bar. I usually go with the former and pretend that I'm soloing the dungeon with the help of some cannon fodder to take some of the incoming damage off of me.

Whatever I do, I have one rule: Never Group Finder PUG a dungeon unless I'm prepared for the possibility that I'll have to shore up the DPS, even if I'm the tank or healer.

Qbiken

Have a similiar story that I expeienced the other day. Was doing veteran Arx Corinium (or that´s how I think it´s spelled ). Our group was the following:
Me as DD (590 CP) on a magplar (as close to BiS gear as you can get, but all isn´t legendary upgraded)
A stamina NB (arount 570/580 cp-ish)
A DK tank 280 cp (very clear that this one doesn´t know all that a tank is supposed to do)
And a healer 220/230 CP-ish (knows his/her stuff but undergeared)

Ok first trash pull takes a little long to clear (dps is a bit low), tank and healer starts complaining that the dps is really low. I point out to the tank that DPS is a group-effort and in order to achieve high dps you need groupbuffs (like major sorcery, major/minor force, SPC-buff etc..etc...). The healer agree that this might be true but that he/she can´t offer that kind of support atm due to lack of gear/skills (which I´m fine with if that´s the case). But the tank keeps saying that his "job" as a tank is just to aggro mobs and the healer shall support the group. Well, aggro mobs is only half the job as a tank. The problem with this one is just the fact that he/she isn´t even running any taunting ability (it becomes obvius since the bosses always turn against other teammembers than the tank). I point this out to him/her but it doesn´t gets into that persons mind....Since our healer and other dd had some brains and ability to addapt to the "tank" we manage to beat the dungeon

Point of the story: Some people will never learn or adapt to the game no matter what or how others tell them to improve their gameplay. I´m not saying all players need to be min/maxers or "elitists" (if you like to call them that) but going into dungeons and behaving like OP (and my story) tells is ruining the fun for us who like to to pledges/dungeons with high performance.

CultOfMMO

rolled a new magplar recently, queued as dps for random normal as soon as i got lvl 10 (im cp 435). Group was me, lvl 30 stam dk (idk if cp toon), tank and healer both cp300+

right off the bat i had a bad feeling about the group, not because the dungeon was white gold tower, but because the tank and healer were buddies and were chatting nonstop in another language. Im sure you CS GO players can relate this ominous feeling, its unjustified, but its there. First few trash pulls went ok, I did about 25k dps aoe, and 10k to the big flesh atro just before first boss, CM tells me im doing ~55% grp dps. First boss was when things started to go wrong, the tank had like 35k hp but its as though he had 0 resistance. The constant fluctuation spike in his health really made me worry, but we still pulled through somehow. Then it all fell apart at the second boss, the tank just could not stay alive. After 3 or 4 tries, the healer finally typed in english

he said................

this [snip] said.............

............I think you 2 are too low level to do this dungeon to be honest

kylewwefan

alephthiago wrote: »

I was never one to actually queue for dungeons but since a lot of my friends just left the game i had contact with this "other side of the game".

People spamming in boss fights:
Bow heavy attacks
Dizzying swing
Snipe
Resto heavy
Acelerating Drain
Bow light attacks

Keep in mind im not saying those skills are being used AS PART OF A ROTATION, no, they are being spammed as the main damage source.
Dots? nah, who needs that weak stuff that tics every now and then?
I try to explain how rotations really work and why their resources are lasting for 15 secs or less, but there is always some member of the party that is like "dude, come on, lets finish fast, we are fine like this" or the person you are trying to help throws something like "Hey, i like 2handed, that is my playstile, f*** o**".

It just cant be helped man.

LOL! I know EXACTLY what your talking about/gone through. But you can't say anything about it without being a filthy elite.

Loves_guars

It's just a game, people have lives.

Real good players carry inexperienced ones without qqing.

raglau

cecibergesnrb18_ESO wrote: »

It's just a game, people have lives.

Real good players carry inexperienced ones without qqing.

I think everyone is agreed on that one, it's when inexperienced players don't want to learn or get abusive when someone is helping them in order to help the team.

Inexperienced players who are also decent people, accept advice without QQIng.

Lucious90

I may get flack for this, segregate the levels! if you're CP 60 you will be grouped with CP 50-70, if they wont have gated dungeons or adhere to the trinity, then atleast allow groups to be similiar levels for heavens sake

raglau

Lucious90 wrote: »

I may get flack for this, segregate the levels! if you're CP 60 you will be grouped with CP 50-70, if they wont have gated dungeons or adhere to the trinity, then atleast allow groups to be similiar levels for heavens sake

I don't really think it's the level that's the problem however. There are loads of really good low level players out there. It's an attitude thing and it can infect all levels of player. Unless we're able to add a filter to the Finder saying, "is a *** y/n", then I think we're stuck with the risk of coming across someone with an attitude problem now and then.

Overall, I think the kind of examples in this thread are rare, most people are decent enough humans and I actually quite like grouping with lower level people as it shows me that new blood is coming into the game and I suppose it's nice to feel part of that.

Doctordarkspawn

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

That comes off as eliteist, insulting, and I'm not at all suprised you got told where to shove it.

Dubhliam

Lucious90 wrote: »

I may get flack for this, segregate the levels! if you're CP 60 you will be grouped with CP 50-70, if they wont have gated dungeons or adhere to the trinity, then atleast allow groups to be similiar levels for heavens sake

No.
This is far from the solution, in fact it can only worsen the situation.

Low levels can be effective, and high levels can be ineffective, like in the above example provided by @CultOfMMO
Clumping them together serves no purpose.

This problem is not an easy one to fix, the roots of the problem are knitted into the game core.

The only way to mentor people currently is to have officers help out guildies.
This is in no way sanctioned by ZOS, and only works if people have initiative to do this themselves.

However, since this MMO is based on a single player franchise, there is an abundance of players that play this as a single player game.
You can't help someone that does not want to be helped.

The problem is that those players still want to do group content, and negatively impact other player's experience.

Lucious90

Pibbles wrote: »

Lucious90 wrote: »

I may get flack for this, segregate the levels! if you're CP 60 you will be grouped with CP 50-70, if they wont have gated dungeons or adhere to the trinity, then atleast allow groups to be similiar levels for heavens sake

I don't really think it's the level that's the problem however. There are loads of really good low level players out there. It's an attitude thing and it can infect all levels of player. Unless we're able to add a filter to the Finder saying, "is a *** y/n", then I think we're stuck with the risk of coming across someone with an attitude problem now and then.

Overall, I think the kind of examples in this thread are rare, most people are decent enough humans and I actually quite like grouping with lower level people as it shows me that new blood is coming into the game and I suppose it's nice to feel part of that.

that may be true, and I will agree that there are decent and good low level players, but for me its a utility thing. the lower levels dont have the skills (not player skill) and for me honestly I do leave groups if I see lower level guys especially tanks or healers, because I dont want to have to worry about the tank not able to hold aggro because hes missing a taunt, or a healer just not able to keep up, plus I feel they learn more being within a group around their level than having someone 600+ CP and 40 elvels ahead of them. But thats my opinion. I do enjoy seeing new blood in the game, and such and help out where I can being a former raid leader in other MMOs, but when I'm on my runs I want them going smooth as possible. Mind you I get kicked as well being CP 160 from guys in the 531+ range

Dubhliam

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

That comes off as eliteist, insulting, and I'm not at all suprised you got told where to shove it.

Seriously?

Those three players had a combined DPS of 4k.
I am sorry if I wanted to tell them that is nowhere near enough.

If that makes me elitist, then I'll happily wear the tag.

You on the other hand can go play with these players.
Knock yourself out.
***.

WalksonGraves

The answer is make more tiers. The range of difficulty within normal spans the entire game including end game content. Normal eden root is not the same as normal mazzatun.

Dubhliam

WalksonGraves wrote: »

The answer is make more tiers. The range of difficulty within normal spans the entire game including end game content. Normal eden root is not the same as normal mazzatun.

The tiers should be intuitive.

For example:
Maj al Ragath gives easy pledges
Glirion gives moderate pledges
Urgarlag Chief-bane gives hard (DLC) pledges

And no, I would not want there to be multiple difficulties to choose from, normal and veteran are enough.

Lucious90

Dubhliam wrote: »

Lucious90 wrote: »

I may get flack for this, segregate the levels! if you're CP 60 you will be grouped with CP 50-70, if they wont have gated dungeons or adhere to the trinity, then atleast allow groups to be similiar levels for heavens sake

No.
This is far from the solution, in fact it can only worsen the situation.

Low levels can be effective, and high levels can be ineffective, like in the above example provided by @CultOfMMO
Clumping them together serves no purpose.

This problem is not an easy one to fix, the roots of the problem are knitted into the game core.

The only way to mentor people currently is to have officers help out guildies.
This is in no way sanctioned by ZOS, and only works if people have initiative to do this themselves.

However, since this MMO is based on a single player franchise, there is an abundance of players that play this as a single player game.
You can't help someone that does not want to be helped.

The problem is that those players still want to do group content, and negatively impact other player's experience.

You said it your self, people think this is a single player game. Mentoring by guild officers or veteran players, helps but ultimately grouping them works best espeicially on alts. I did this as a Raid leader, I grouped guys together based on character level, for runs of raids and dungeons even pvp when I ran the guild. even other games LFG groups off of level, it doesnt filter out the toxic people, if thats the end goal then you need to not play online games, but it can with scaling cater the game to the group so they can learn their class and mechanics of the dungeon

raglau

Lucious90 wrote: »

just not able to keep up, plus I feel they learn more being within a group around their level than having someone 600+ CP and 40 elvels ahead of them. But thats my opinion. I do enjoy seeing new blood in the game, and

That is actually true. Because we higher levels will tend to obliterate everything in our path in a low level dungeon, bosses included, so there's limited mechanical knowledge they can gain. I'd not really considered that point.

I think you have to make a decision to mentor, to make that work. When I was showing my friend how to play, I went in, aggro'd the boss and kept it pinned while explaining to him how to take it down, but each dungeon would take say an hour as I let him do all the work, I just kept him alive. It was fun but you need to set that time aside, you can't do that on a quick random before work or something.

Lucious90

Pibbles wrote: »

Lucious90 wrote: »

just not able to keep up, plus I feel they learn more being within a group around their level than having someone 600+ CP and 40 elvels ahead of them. But thats my opinion. I do enjoy seeing new blood in the game, and

That is actually true. Because we higher levels will tend to obliterate everything in our path in a low level dungeon, bosses included, so there's limited mechanical knowledge they can gain. I'd not really considered that point.

I think you have to make a decision to mentor, to make that work. When I was showing my friend how to play, I went in, aggro'd the boss and kept it pinned while explaining to him how to take it down, but each dungeon would take say an hour as I let him do all the work, I just kept him alive. It was fun but you need to set that time aside, you can't do that on a quick random before work or something.

This nails it, guilding up is the best option, and getting in with friends, makes learning easier. They could release some kind of manual in game that goes over the mechanics of a boss in a group dungeon so people have access to some kind of resource for those who prefer not to be in a guild but want to run group content

Mettaricana

We 4 man dps ran silver black heart haven I was 531 and rest 200 or less had to keep rezzing one guy who was blowing up mic with no heals can't win we can't win no heals I need heals I'm tossing vigor in between to keep em up. Its like dude your a friggan nightblade your entire gimmick os self healing!? Stop standing in the aoes block or dodge. Eventually he rages and refuses res claiming we can't so this so we left him there and carried on amd finished the dungeon without him. After we beat final boss he tells us we cheated... I'm like dude I carry low levels through silvers to be nice on average I do them all and some golds solo stop acting like your the desicion maker on survival or failure... I don't need you to do this I'm Just helping you guys out. Even had a guy claim solo on xertain dungeons was impossible so I let him stay dead and follow me through vcoa but ffs...

UppGRAYxDD

This is why I will only do random dungeons with my Hvy armor Templar. No I wont have BIS for dps, but when the scrub tank, healer, and dps die I'll still be there jabbing and jeebus beamin

Espica

I think most should be new players or people that only level one character to 50 then level the next and the next with no knowledge of the game.

A low level player most likely has no armor set, no good mundus stone, maybe doesn't know what's a rotation at all.

I had the same issue in Arx, two low level DPSs. It was a pain. The bow used was only spamming light attack and then said after the 5+ minutes snake boss fight that somebody wasn't doing enough damage, me being the 531 tank I guess.

Then I asked them what abilities were they using, and to use areas on multiple mob pulls. He even told me to pull less mobs, how? They're pulled in groups. Good thing the sorcerer took my advice and started using WoE and sorc AoE.

I stood there because maybe at one time I was the same and had to learn and improve. Remember that at one time we had no knowledge of the game and had to be taught or carried

Hot_spur

If someone wants to mentor me, I'd be all for it.

I'm at a point where I don't know what to do next. (There's no manual, that I know of.)

I've leveled up to a little over CP400. But I only deal about 1.5K dps (if I'm reading my stats right).

I only recently learned that a stamina DPS should be wearing medium armor, not heavy. I had intended to start leveling medium gear, so I was accumulating it, and when I would get a better piece, I'd sell the lower stuff. But as I said, I only recently learned that I should be using it as a DPS. So now I do.

I used to run out of stamina all of the time, even after I ate food. But now, I almost never run out.

But, I don't know what to do next to improve my damage dealt.

So, if anyone wants to help a polite person out, I'd be grateful.

Doctordarkspawn

Dubhliam wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

That comes off as eliteist, insulting, and I'm not at all suprised you got told where to shove it.

Seriously?

Those three players had a combined DPS of 4k.
I am sorry if I wanted to tell them that is nowhere near enough.

If that makes me elitist, then I'll happily wear the tag.

You on the other hand can go play with these players.
Knock yourself out.
***.

Yes, insulting people and telling them they dont know how to play in the most blunt way possible makes you look like an eliteist. And that, is the most polite name I could use. "Nothing worse than a know it all" Was the exact term used. A know it all to most people is someone who acts like they have all the answers, being unintentionally insulting because of course, they know how to do it better.

And when people feel insulted their less likely to lisen.

And that's about all there is to say really. And, and this is why we cant have nice things like difficulty without making it for like 10% of the playerbase. Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Doctordarkspawn

Something else I'd like to state before I go.

This game does not do a good job of teaching people how to do things. If there was a specific role line that gave bonuses to specific abilities and, you know, laid a friggin framework for how to build? People might not suck nearly as much.

As it is it's like throwing someone into the ocean without even a pool noodle. This is to say nothing of the 'our way or the high way' when it comes to support rolls. Wanna play something other than a block tank? Get the *** out exept under specific circumstances we wont even tell you about.

Osteos

@Hot_spur what platform are you on?

WhiteMage

Hot_spur wrote: »

If someone wants to mentor me, I'd be all for it.

I'm at a point where I don't know what to do next. (There's no manual, that I know of.)

I've leveled up to a little over CP400. But I only deal about 1.5K dps (if I'm reading my stats right).

I only recently learned that a stamina DPS should be wearing medium armor, not heavy. I had intended to start leveling medium gear, so I was accumulating it, and when I would get a better piece, I'd sell the lower stuff. But as I said, I only recently learned that I should be using it as a DPS. So now I do.

I used to run out of stamina all of the time, even after I ate food. But now, I almost never run out.

But, I don't know what to do next to improve my damage dealt.

So, if anyone wants to help a polite person out, I'd be grateful.

What platform and server?