What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

starkerealm · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

code65536 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

For the overwhelming majority of people, a RNG box in a video game will NOT trigger any addictive behaviour of any sort.

That is true.

But then it begs the question, why would ZOS implement this system at all? Most people are rational and wouldn't gamble on it. So who are the people who do? A few rich thrill-seekers? And maybe those who do have problems of control?

To state the obvious: The short answer here is whales.

Right now, it is possible to run out of things to buy in the crown store. Whales will spend 1k a month on a game, throwing cash at the screen and buying anything they can get their hands on. Lucky Bags like this are almost exclusively aimed at them.

Unfortunately, without knowing what the drop rates will be, the Whales will probably still run out of things to buy under this system. So it'll *** off the people who hate these things, it won't function as an endless cash sink for the people who will go in for that, and it will prey upon the people with impulse control issues. Just, ugh.

Evergnar · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

nimander99 wrote: »

Gambling boxes... First real step towards a P2W game. Soon the base game will be 'free' then they will add a gold for Crown exchange and that'll be that.

Please, please do not add gambling boxes for cash to the Crown Store. I promise you all, I have seen this happen time and time again, we will slide down that slope...

Yep. There's no doubt in my mind now that's the direction ESO is headed for.

Thevampirenight · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

nimander99 wrote: »

Gambling boxes... First real step towards a P2W game. Soon the base game will be 'free' then they will add a gold for Crown exchange and that'll be that.

Please, please do not add gambling boxes for cash to the Crown Store. I promise you all, I have seen this happen time and time again, we will slide down that slope...

I don't think they will go full on free to play, I think they will keep the buy to play system for a long time. They are a us based company with a populer ip so yeah they would want the money from those that would buy the game. even if they did go free to play they most likely will have it limited for like a testing purpose then you would still have to buy the game, before progressing. They do sometimes have free to play weekends they have done this a couple of times I think. But yeah I don't think the current model is going to change.

Nitratas · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

No. No. No.

I know they are pretty profitable for the company but they ruin the game. Just look at what SWTOR became. Nearly all of the hottest stuff is in those boxes. Nearly all of the designers efforts are put into how to make them more attractive. Why? Because people buy them and it's profitable. Why create new and interesting content when you earn most of your money through rng boxes? The game suffers from that.

Also - didnt they promise never to introduce rng boxes?

nimander99 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

They will add mounts and costumes and other things un-attainable through any other means of play that you can only get via these gambling boxes. See Neverwinter and you will have a very good idea what these boxes will be like. Trying to force collectors like me to blow wads of cash to get special cosmetics only available in these boxes.

If this is what I suspect it is... Then I've lost all hope for the genre.

JimT722 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

No, I don't suppose they really are eyeing hardcore gambling addicts and thinking "if only we could provide the cliff", but you can be sure they are eyeing people with poor impulse control and thinking "we can use RNG to make these people spend more in the Crown Store", and isn't that still a scummy thing to do?

I can empathize with that. I've bought a couple things from the store out of impulse and consider myself somebody of moderate control. This is kind of how a lot of commerce is structured. Whether its point of sale additions or the placing of items in strategic locations. If this is a daily struggle for some people I hope they find a way to cope as its an important life skill. I have a friend who is very impulsive. His wife put all of his gaming accounts on a pre-paid credit card so that there would be one more layer of resistance to spending too much at any given time.

For me, I see the random boxes as a fun way to spend those extra crowns we get with eso plus.

Yes I bet they are implementing this because they are fun and not because they are a cheap way of exploitation.

They could sell the items directly. Why do people supporting this think these boxes are random.

It's not a system anyone should support.

noxayloxub17_ESO · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

noxayloxub17_ESO wrote: »

This practice does not make ANYONE happy and only serves to line ZO pockets by taking advantage of people who probably can't even afford it because they are addicts.

I know what you're trying to say here, but do you really think this is ZoS aim? To take advantage of the disadvantaged in a video game through RNG lootboxes?
Honestly for those with an addiction problem in regards to gambling do you have a plan to cope or get support when things like this come up in life? Honest question because I've little experience with gambling addictions.

I don't believe ZoS is out there oogling all these poor souls and thinking "if only we could provide the cliff".

Yes this is the ONLY goal of RNG boxes. They are specifically designed take advantage of the disadvantaged, namely by gambling. They cover it with the guise of "giving people the opportunity to get items that are not available by any other means", but this is not the real reason. RNG boxes make money by taking advantage of players. On average, the majority of money that comes in from microtransactions is from less than 1% of players. That means that YES by implementing RNG boxes ZO is specifically targeting people they know will spend the money, IE "providing the cliff".

http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/14/11227210/psychologist-calls-for-f2p-game-designers-to-be-more-aware-of
http://www.recode.net/2014/2/26/11623998/a-long-tail-of-whales-half-of-mobile-games-money-comes-from-0-15
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/132582-Most-Freemium-Revenue-Comes-From-Less-Than-1-of-Gamers

petraeus1 · August 2016

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If you KNOW you being ripped off and still say yes, is it still a rip off ?

True, its impossible to make oneself a victim....despite attempts to prove otherwise.

Sure, people can make a decision to buy or not to buy and that's their own responsibility.

Yet with @anitajoneb17_ESO I am still not happy with gamble boxes. We can ignore gamble boxes knowing they're a rip off, but because they're a rip off it's in ZOS' interest to make them as attractive as possible. Either initiating the slippery slope so many are fearing, and generally just being an annoying presence in the Crown Store once they do contain something not otherwise attainable.

I'm also not sure if they won't trigger addictive behaviour. Their prevalence throughout the online gaming industry suggests their remarkable profitableness, which in turn suggests (but this is a bit of a stretch) they do have addictive properties.

Generally just reading the stories from the gambling website scandal from CSGO and DOTA 2, I just wish we could keep the real money gambling in casino's and lotteries and have games be games.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

code65536 wrote: »

But then it begs the question, why would ZOS implement this system at all? Most people are rational and wouldn't gamble on it. So who are the people who do? A few rich thrill-seekers? And maybe those who do have problems of control?

Probably for the same reason McDonald's (or any other junk/fast food business) is making millions all over the world, even though everyone is well informed of how unhealthy, high-priced and fattening it is.

I'm not into the various, complicated psychological schemes that lead people to do things that are ultimately bad for them, in full knowledge. I'm not a specialist and that would take ages anyway.

What I'm saying is that if we want to live in freedom (i.e. not letting the state deciding by law about everything we should or shouldn't do in life) it means we're free to do what's good and also what's not good for us, and it's up to us to decide. If you feel RNG boxes are fine, go buy them, if you think they're a rip off, simply don't buy them. It really is as simple as that.

To answer your question more precisely : in my case, I could buy one or two boxes for a chance to get the wolf mount which i really like but the current price of 1800 crowns is too high for my taste. If I win I have a wolf, if I loose I have no wolf, but in both cases ZOS has made 800 crowns sales that they wouldn't have otherwise. Multiply that by the hundreds of thousands of people with the same consumer profile as me and you have your answer.

Enodoc · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

starkerealm wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

If ZOS wants to add some "fun" gambling, then there must be one rule: Every possible drop from the RNG crate must be available for direct purchase.

This would allow people to try their luck at getting an item cheaply. But it would not leave RNG as the only way to get an item.

I do not like to gamble, I never gamble, and I would not be tempted to gamble. So these crates have absolutely zero effect on me personally. But they can and do affect people who don't have that kind of self-control. And by having items that are obtainable only through random crates--either items that are "discontinued" or items that are exclusive to the gamble boxes--they are enticing the compulsive players to gamble. And even though it doesn't affect me, it is a low tactic that elicits my disapproval.

So, ZOS, if you want to add gambling, do it right: Make everything that is in your current gamble box pool available for direct purchase. Rotate stuff in and out as you see fit, but there should never by anything in the gamble pool that cannot be direct-purchased. It's just a virtual store of bits--don't insult our intelligence by claiming "limited space". Make this change, and I will withdraw all objections. Don't, and I'll know just how far you are willing to exploit a certain segment of your customer base.

If the lockboxes are guaranteed to be happening, then I think this would be the best compromise. I don't mind if they re-use limited time items, because they can still come back later. But they should not have lockbox-exclusive items. Anything that can be won in a lockbox should have a direct purchase alternative.

starkerealm wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Disclaimer - This isn't a defense of ZOS adding lockboxes. This is a defense of the currently unfounded claim that ZOS said they never would.

It actually kinda is. I'm sorry, but there's no other point to that post. Additionally, there was a "no, never" quote, probably on ESO live, I just can't be bothered to hunt it down for you because, quite frankly, at this point? I've got better things to do with my life.

If the only thing we'd gotten saying, "no lockboxes" was a mealy mouthed, "no plans at this time," I would not have come back. The quote exists out there. If you don't believe me, or want to prove me wrong, you can go prove it's never been stated.

Not so. The point of the post is to defend ZOS against the people who are accusing them of breaking promises or lying. I've often jumped in on threads to defend ZOS' (and anyone else's) integrity while still being neutral (and sometimes in opposition) of their decisions and opinions. They've already fallen down on their moral integrity by introducing something which encourages gambling, but I have yet to see an accusation of outright lying or broken promises that is actually valid, so I am skeptical over what was actually said vs what has been inferred.

And I'm sure you know that asking me to prove non-existence of that quote is a logical fallacy

Enodoc Obviously I have not read through all the posts (so you may have seen this), but there is a quote where it says "We don't have any plans to add locked RNG boxes. " Of course, it's not a promise, and of course now everyone can say "Well at that time, they had no plans for it". So sure it's not a solid no, but it still is uneasy. Link

Just for the record, MissBizz the current defense people are making of that quote is "They said no locked RNG boxes, as in no locked boxes dropped in the world that you have to buy keys for. They never said no RNG boxes directly sold in the store".

Also, I woke up to a bunch of notifications that I couldn't see because the comments were already deleted. You guys better not be flaming with my @handle while I'm out :P

Yeah, I got that too. I think it had to do with one of Zenimax's (the holding company not ZOS) employees, and their linkedin account, but I'm not sure.

Also, you're correct. The quote we can't find was specifically that we wouldn't get lockboxes, not lucky bags. Which one (*cough* Enodoc *cough*) could lawyer into saying, "well, they didn't actually promise that we'd never get any form of gamble bags."

Thing is... as an element of trust? Nope. This remains a serious body blow. The statement (and no, Enodoc, I'm not talking about the one line from Gina on reddit) left the impression that lucky bags were out. If ZOS wants to go back on that, that's fine, that's their decision. But it's not a decision I'll support.

Don't worry about it, I've said my defense piece, I'm not going to push it

Waseem · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

most the anger regarding mystery boxes is because you could end up paying 100000 crowns for a mount you could've directly purchased for 2000-3000 crowns
Zenimax have plenty of ways to re-introduce previously released crown store items aswell. to lock this behind RNG boxes with real money on stakes is what contributes for anger around here

JKorr · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lyrander wrote: »

why?

i mean ...why? the mounts are expensive enough to make enough money out of them, not?

i dont even understand how that will work?

lets say:

ice wolf in box.
i want it.
i have every other mount there is (because i bought them all)
what will i get when i dont "win"?

crown store potions? -wtf

and even if they somehow make it worth the money - i would hate the idea.
i already missed 2 mounts that i wanted to get, because i wasnt home to play the game.

If you get a duplicate, you can trade it for "Gems", a new currency needed because of the rng boxes. Of course, there is no information yet as to how many "gems" you get for trading in an item. You might buy a box for 400 crowns [only price they mentioned, but I'm not betting there will be more expensive versions] get a duplicate item, and get 20 gems for trading it in as a duplicate. Of course the item you really wanted might be 200 or 2000 gems, so.....

And it will *really* suck for people who haven't bought too many items off the crown store. If the item isn't a duplicate, it automatically gets added to your account, and you can't trade or sell it.

If there is going to be a "gem" store to allow people to buy the items they really wanted, why not just put the items back in the store and allow people to outright buy them? There is one mount I'm interested in. I will NOT be gambling with the rng gremlins in the hope of getting it. I haven't bought many items from the store; my most regular purchase is mimic stones because I craft for my guilds and can't always find the style mats I need. If I buy a gamble box, I'm going to be stuck with just about every item that they might throw in there since I haven't bought the costumes and "cosmetic" items from the crown store. If I had wanted those items, I'd have bought them when they were available. Computer issues made me miss the senche I want, unfortunately.

adriant1978 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If you KNOW you being ripped off and still say yes, is it still a rip off ?

I would say that there doesn't have to be deception involved for something to be a rip-off. Indeed, according to Google a rip-off is "a fraud or swindle, especially something that is grossly overpriced" (emphasis mine).

Now of course it is ZOS' game and they are free to decide the price of things, but we as consumers are also allowed to voice the opinion that making certain items available only by the repeated purchase of lockboxes could count as "gross overpricing".

dsalter · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

elvenmad wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

noxayloxub17_ESO wrote: »

This practice does not make ANYONE happy and only serves to line ZO pockets by taking advantage of people who probably can't even afford it because they are addicts.

I know what you're trying to say here, but do you really think this is ZoS aim? To take advantage of the disadvantaged in a video game through RNG lootboxes?
Honestly for those with an addiction problem in regards to gambling do you have a plan to cope or get support when things like this come up in life? Honest question because I've little experience with gambling addictions.

I don't believe ZoS is out there oogling all these poor souls and thinking "if only we could provide the cliff".

many posts have already been removed that clearly explain how rng boxes work

the basics are RNG loot boxes are predatory by design, so is any form of gambling, that is how it works, it is designed to target those with low self control first primarily, it then uses public awareness of 'jackpot' winners to 'tease' and get the attention of those with higher self control usually through advertisement or in games usually there is on screen splash alerts of winners its all done Psychologically and proven to be very very effective and RNG loot boxes in games are one of the most lucrative and most effective revenue generating systems there is, that is fact and very well proven.

did a study in college about games of chance oddly enough, your words ring true, we based our experiment on a simple "raffle" in which we collect names for 10p (we put all the earnings towards pet rescue don't worry) and put them in a bag, thing is, we didnt actually put them into their bag, we had another with fixed names in them specifically to cause them to lose.

but because some people DID "win" they assumed it was legit, we were a class of 17 with 3 prizes, we did this 3 times in one week and profit grew each time, we did have non-class friends who were in the bag to, so to lose suspicions.

so we got that week over with, handed out the little "prizes" and added up the totals, and it worked, seeing others win made them come back to try again cause several faces in that crowd i remembered.

felt bad doing it, hence why we put the earning towards pet rescue charities

Abeille · August 2016

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Thevampirenight wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Gambling boxes... First real step towards a P2W game. Soon the base game will be 'free' then they will add a gold for Crown exchange and that'll be that.

Please, please do not add gambling boxes for cash to the Crown Store. I promise you all, I have seen this happen time and time again, we will slide down that slope...

I don't think they will go full on free to play, I think they will keep the buy to play system for a long time. They are a us based company with a populer ip so yeah they would want the money from those that would buy the game. even if they did go free to play they most likely will have it limited for like a testing purpose then you would still have to buy the game, before progressing. They do sometimes have free to play weekends they have done this a couple of times I think. But yeah I don't think the current model is going to change.

I hope you are right.

I mean, with update 12, some aspects of this game are starting to look a lot like GW2 - which is NOT necessarily a bad thing, I enjoyed GW2 for a long time and I'd probably still be playing if they didn't go a certain direction after the release of their Expansion Pack.
GW2 too "collapsed the servers" eventually, which is in essence what One Tamriel is doing with putting every faction together. Every new map scaled people up in GW2, and every old map scaled people down, while ESO is scaling every map everywhere after One Tamriel. GW2 had lockboxes and coffers that were also sold in their cash shop (although they also dropped in the world).
And GW2 ended up adding a free option (which was full of restrictions). They have three tiers of accounts now, one free, one with the base game bought and one with the expansion pack bought.

xeroflare357 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

if ZOS adds RNG boxes this game will die like all the others before it . LOOK up all the games that did the same thing and are either dying or are dead already

petraeus1 · August 2016

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I don't need to resort to "other monotonous cliches like, you must live in your parent's basement to disagree with this feature? Or you must be 12 years old? Or other jumping-to-conclusions-with-no-proof pathetic attempts to belittle someone that doesn't care to share your opinion".

I'm pretty clear without having to do so.

Then why did you start out with the 'I understand you want it for free. You probably feel you deserve it for free. Entitlement generation no doubt.'?

I also wanted to say that approving of monetization strategies on the assumption the company clearly needs to make more money to survive is equally unreasonable as disapproving of monetization strategies on the assumption that a company does not need anymore money. The latter is used in clamors to get stuff for less (or sometimes even for free, which you clearly dislike), the former is used to approve of monetization practices and pricing many others would call a 'rip off'. You can't blame people for scrutinizing and critically comparing ESO's business model to those of other online games.

Icisia · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

No, no, no and again, no. I support the crown store and sub to help this game, but I can't support this. It sets a dangerous precedent that has harmed other games.

karldavy149b16_ESO · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

i played swtor for 2 years they started with that *** and i hung on in for a while .... lock boxes is a mugs game and frankly ill leave the game if they introduced happy to pay 4000 crowns for that dromathra mount but wont be happy spending 10000 for a chance of it hell no

AnthragonVangor · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Man, that was a lot stuff to read but here are my two cents:

Don't know where to start, hum ok, I was totally okay with the existing crown shop model. There's something (mount, costumes e.g.) in the crownstore with the x amount of price. I liked the mount? I bought it (even though it wasn't cheap). There have been some costumes in the crown shop...take look, nope, don't like it, don't buy it.

Got it!

Loot box system:

Oh, I see a special mount I would like to buy, yes, doesn't make me stronger but, hey looks cool.

How much?

Oh a few bucks. Ok let's buy some "lottery tickets". First one...potions and, oh some style material...ok, well potions I could have done by myself (thanks MissBiss for mentioning that in your vid) and...oh material I have still a bunch of. Ok let's try the next one...ok same ...next one ...oh, hum, well again potions and...a femal evening dress for my male character...so I might start then a female character then *hardsmile*. Ok still no special mount and...oh...no more tickets. Maybe next time, oh, but it says "limited only this week" hum..shall I or shall I not buy a few more "lottery tickets". Well, normally, I love looting boxes...in free world because, well, they are "free" somehow but..oh I get it they are called loot boxes because "they" want to loot me: ok, it is like a joke, ha ha, hum..uhm yeah, but not funny at all?...

I just wanted to share my thoughts and behaviour on how I would react to this system.

There are people who don't care about "shopping" in the crown store and that is ok. But what other people described, that for those who liked shopping there is a difference in buying what I want and buying a random box where I might get this item or worse...imagine you go shopping in real life. You see the show case and want like to buy that special shirt. You go in and they say "you have the chance to get this shirt". You give them 10 bucks, you receive a bag and ...what is inside? Well, a coke, some chewing gum, a headache pill and...oh not the shirt but a bra...well if you are a woman better than nothing, hu? Oh but you are a man, well in this case take my sentence above and "make yourselve a 'second female character".

When I go shooping and see, don't know a Ferrari and can't afford it, ok I got I don't have the money to buy it. But when I have the money for this car and get a Ford Fiesta instead or maybe just a wheelchair because it is random, than in my opinion this system really s***.

My experience with games which build this in (or had it from the beginning), well, I lost my interest in it. Even if the game itself was great (or just ok), there are people like me who like wearing different outfits but I am not willing to get it with a chance and using REAL money.

There has been a time. when you had special items, mounts, whatever in games when you have been good in something. E.g. beaten x amounts of bosses, reached a goal in a special time limit for a dungeon or whatever.

The loot box system or however they may call it is in my eyes the beginning in leaving the game again. Maybe it is so expensive to fix those "ancient bugs" like mobs/npcs spawning after 10 seconds after I am entering a cave/area that this money could help - I am becoming cynical here I know - and I know that "they" might not care if someone like me leaves. But as far as I started to relove this game for a few months and even promoted this site to not have this stupid things like e.g. Neverwinter (yeah I am on console PS4), but I dont't know who sayd it, I see it similar coming for TESO like in other MMOs or just online titles, becoming a F2P game and adding content you need to buy for.

The funny fact about this is, that there's a video on youtube why Asian MMORPGs don't have that much success in the "western world", because e.g. of their milking system (not only I know).

And again, I have no problem with buying DLCs (I did this years before for other games and it was called "add on", before the gaming industry called this "Season Pass" or whatever), mounts and cosmetics as far, as I have the power to control what I can buy and not just "random stuff with a chance off".

This might have been more than just my " two cents". But I think the more people write stuff like this the more we get attention.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

There seem to be a minority of people around here who are apparently so red in tooth and claw that they think it's fine to rip people off.

I'm not saying it's fine, and I'm not in favor of those boxes.

BUT what I insist on is the fact that people are free to being ripped off or not.

Do they know they might not get what they want ? - YES, they know.
Do they know that the drop rates are not public, official or fixed, so that the result in not entirely in RNGesus hands, but also in ZOS hands ? - YES, they know.
Do they know they do HAVE TO get that thing to enjoy the game ? - YES, they know.

If people, with all this knowlegde, still buy those boxes - I say it's on them, it's their choice.

Don't push all the responsibility onto ZOS - the buyer has power and responsibility too : to buy or not to buy.

If you KNOW you being ripped off and still say yes, is it still a rip off ?

That's not how it works.
That's as if suggesting it's not taking advantage of a situation because everyone knows the odds and has an option to choose.

The whole point of this discussions is that choice is being removed. So in essence you're saying that people should know to choose not to buy anything if it's in a random box ....OK but given there's literally no other way to obtain these items, what other suggestion can you offer

Our suggestion is to not use a chance box at all but you're saying its O K to use one
That's the disagreement many of us are having with that point of view you hold.

code65536 · August 2016

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What I'm saying is that if we want to live in freedom (i.e. not letting the state deciding by law about everything we should or shouldn't do in life) it means we're free to do what's good and also what's not good for us, and it's up to us to decide. If you feel RNG boxes are fine, go buy them, if you think they're a rip off, simply don't buy them. It really is as simple as that.

I agree!

I did not propose eliminating them outright. The rest of my post goes on to suggest the solution: Making sure that every random box item is also available for direct purchase at full price without RNG. That means no exclusives, no discontinued items only-available-through-RNG.

You want freedom to choose? So do I. I want the freedom to choose a deterministic, straightforward way to get an item. This would mean that people who enjoy a little bit of gambling for fun can choose to spend a few crowns to try their luck at getting an item cheaply. But the people who feel the compulsion to get an item that they "must have" will have an escape hatch and a choice to get that item in a straightforward manner.

The choice should be between RNG and no RNG. Between gambling and no gambling. When the choice is between gambling as the only way to acquire an item and not gambling while forgoing all possibility of getting a particular item, then there will be problems, as that is what snares the compulsive players who have poor self-control.

So, in short, yes, I do very much support the freedom to choose, as that freedom--when fully available--is what will preempt the worst kinds of problems that people in this thread fears. A digital store selling bits has no shelves, no concept of capacity or space. Don't let ZOS insult our intelligence and tell us that the only way to make an item accessible is through gambling with RNG--some of use prefer to be treated as adults.

And finally, just because you and I--and most players--can rationally choose to say "no" doesn't mean there aren't those who can't. The gamble boxes will never affect me directly, yet I've taken an interest in this topic because you don't have to be the person being fleeced to frown when you see someone else being fleeced.

Morimizo · August 2016

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

You can type in bold all you want. I don't find it intimidating at all, just an indication that you want more attention. Next time why not use all caps? Oh, you did that in places too.

I think your use of the drug lord reference is inappropriate, irresponsible, and unfounded.

I think the majority of lock box purchasers in games are rational adults who choose to purchase them because they have disposable income and don't mind spending it on a chance to procure a cosmetic item which will set them apart from others.

I think the fact that the gain is not guaranteed adds to the excitement when they get something special. If they wish to spend their earned income to enjoy this, I'm not going to tell them they shouldn't and neither should you.

In addition, every income source you listed is already in place and your response seems to confirm that you "think this is enough". Again, that's not a decision you are informed enough to make, nor have any right or responsibility to do so.

I don't need to resort to "other monotonous cliches like, you must live in your parent's basement to disagree with this feature? Or you must be 12 years old? Or other jumping-to-conclusions-with-no-proof pathetic attempts to belittle someone that doesn't care to share your opinion".

I'm pretty clear without having to do so.

@Elijah_Crow

The bit in italics? Wait..is that okay? To bring something to someone's attention, or is it automatically thought of as intimidating? That was certainly not my intention with the bold, I wanted to make sure you could respond, what with this gigantic thread to sift through. Sometimes simply listing someone's name is not enough. Perhaps you should've taken it as I wasn't intimidated by being attacked wrongfully for wanting things for free, and I have the right to defend myself?

Anyway, I would never (notice I'm not capitalizing to accent here) advise folks on how they should spend their money, and am quite sure that none of my posts (in any thread) even hint at what other players should spend their crowns, rl cash, or time on in this game or any other. Heck, I wouldn't get away with that with my cat (as far as rl time obviously), why could I expect that here? Nope, I'm just saying I disagree with ZOS' implementation of this, and I feel very strongly about it.

You disagree? No worries, that's your call. Will other players disagree, and use this new system with impunity, or just not care about its existence? Again, I have not, and will not, condemn them for it, because that's not for me to judge. My fiscal relationship of ESO is not with the other players, it's with ZOS.

And I am unwavering with my decision to not use this system, and am disappointed that ZOS has gone this route.

So, I've raised the 'agree to disagree' flag, and we've both made our points clear. Back on topic?

daroule1982 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Just want to hear what you folks think heres a link of what they are going to do in update 12 just so you can see for yourself what to possibly expect
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4ym0yv/gamescom_update_12_info/

You guys have a nice even middle ground going here. Don't spoil it like FTP only games. It's clutter, and for me that is a game killer. Looking at the Dye sell deal, and the name change, etc. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2016

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

They dont affect me personally as I would never buy them, but this just seems bad from a PR/Social Responsibility standpoint. This is GAMBLING, pure and simple. I worry that people will get in over their heads.

Garldeen · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

There seem to be a minority of people around here who are apparently so red in tooth and claw that they think it's fine to rip people off.

I'm not saying it's fine, and I'm not in favor of those boxes.

BUT what I insist on is the fact that people are free to being ripped off or not.

Do they know they might not get what they want ? - YES, they know.
Do they know that the drop rates are not public, official or fixed, so that the result in not entirely in RNGesus hands, but also in ZOS hands ? - YES, they know.
Do they know they do HAVE TO get that thing to enjoy the game ? - YES, they know.

If people, with all this knowlegde, still buy those boxes - I say it's on them, it's their choice.

Don't push all the responsibility onto ZOS - the buyer has power and responsibility too : to buy or not to buy.

If you KNOW you being ripped off and still say yes, is it still a rip off ?

That's not how it works.
That's as if suggesting it's not taking advantage of a situation because everyone knows the odds and has an option to choose.

The whole point of this discussions is that choice is being removed. So in essence you're saying that people should know to choose not to buy anything if it's in a random box ....OK but given there's literally no other way to obtain these items, what other suggestion can you offer

Our suggestion is to not use a chance box at all but you're saying its O K to use one
That's the disagreement many of us are having with that point of view you hold.

This is the key issue for me. If i play the UK national lottery (I don't as I don't see the fun in gambling, but each to their own) I know the following:

The Jackpot - 6 Numbers (Typical prize: £2 million)
6 numbers are drawn at random from the set of integers between 1 and 59, which means there are 59!/(6!*(59-6)!) combinations of numbers - this means that the jackpot chance is 1 in 45,057,474 or approximately 1 in 45 million.

5 Numbers + Bonus Number (Typical prize: £50,000)
You are still matching 6 numbers from the 1 to 59 set as above, but you can now do it in 6 different ways (by dropping each of the main numbers in turn), therefore the chance is 1 in 45,057,474/6, which works out as 1 in 7,509,579.

5 Numbers (Typical prize: £1,000)
This is 52 times more likely than getting 5 numbers + the bonus number - the chance is 1 in 7,509,579/52, which evaluates to 1 in 144,415.

4 Numbers (Typical prize: £100)
Firstly, let's take the case of the first 4 of your numbers matching and the last 2 not matching.
In this single case (where each set of chances relies on the previous event occurring):

Chance that your 1st number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 59/6.
Chance that your 2nd number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 58/5.
Chance that your 3rd number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 57/4.
Chance that your 4th number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 56/3.
Chance that your 5th number doesn't match a winning number is 1 in 55/(55-2) [because there are still 2 unmatched winning numbers].
Chance that your 6th number doesn't match a winning number is 1 in 54/(54-2) [yes, still 2 unmatched winning numbers].

Now you need to accumulate all those chances by multiplying them together:
1 in (59/6)*(58/5)*(57/4)*(56/3)*(55/53)*(54/52) which is 1 in 32,697.73.
Now this is the chance for that single case occurring, but there are 15 combinations of matching 4 from 6, so you divide the answer by 15 to get 1 in 32697.73/15 or 1 in 2179.85.

3 Numbers (Constant prize: £10)
Follow exactly the same scheme as the 4 match above to get these figures:
1 in (59/6)*(58/5)*(57/4)*(56/53)*(55/52)*(54/51) (which is 1 in 1923.40) for a single case.
There are 20 combinations of 3 from 6, so the chance of a 3 match is 1 in 1923.40/20 or 1 in 96.2.

2 Numbers (Constant prize: Lucky Dip in the next draw - worth £2)
Follow exactly the same scheme as the 3 match above to get these figures:
1 in (59/6)*(58/5)*(57/53)*(56/52)*(55/51)*(54/50) (which is 1 in 153.87) for a single case.
There are 15 combinations of 2 from 6, so the chance of a 2 match is 1 in 153.87/15 or 1 in 10.3.

source for the above content and maths: http://playlotto.org.uk/

here i know what my chance would be of waking up tomorrow and not having to go to work ever again.

With random loot boxes, we have no idea on the odds of getting that mount we want. I might be 1/10, it might be 1/1b - there will be far far more lower prizes than higher. The key is we just don't know. The National Lottery is gambling but with an understanding at the start of how likely you are to win. If you consider the odds too long then you don't play. If we don't know if our chance of getting a mount is 1/100 or 1/100,000,000 then how can we decide if we consider those odds fair.

That is my issue with these things

nimander99 · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

I buy every mount, costume, pet, hairstyles etc. and have all the collectors stuff from subbing (except the mudcrab and monkey event pets) and I have held an active sub since day one. If they implement this and start throwing in unique and unattainable collectables...

Well, lets just say that is a slap in my face. Zenimax is saying:

"Nimander, thanks for the grand you've spent over the last two years but we'd like to speed that up a bit. So how about spending a grand per month?"

I have been probably one of the most loyal customer's this game has but if they do this, and it is what I suspect. Then they are telling me they don't want my business anymore.

jedtb16_ESO · August 2016

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

wonkydog wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

There seem to be a minority of people around here who are apparently so red in tooth and claw that they think it's fine to rip people off.

I'm not saying it's fine, and I'm not in favor of those boxes.

BUT what I insist on is the fact that people are free to being ripped off or not.

Do they know they might not get what they want ? - YES, they know.
Do they know that the drop rates are not public, official or fixed, so that the result in not entirely in RNGesus hands, but also in ZOS hands ? - YES, they know.
Do they know they do HAVE TO get that thing to enjoy the game ? - YES, they know.

If people, with all this knowlegde, still buy those boxes - I say it's on them, it's their choice.

Don't push all the responsibility onto ZOS - the buyer has power and responsibility too : to buy or not to buy.

If you KNOW you being ripped off and still say yes, is it still a rip off ?

That's not how it works.
That's as if suggesting it's not taking advantage of a situation because everyone knows the odds and has an option to choose.

The whole point of this discussions is that choice is being removed. So in essence you're saying that people should know to choose not to buy anything if it's in a random box ....OK but given there's literally no other way to obtain these items, what other suggestion can you offer

Our suggestion is to not use a chance box at all but you're saying its O K to use one
That's the disagreement many of us are having with that point of view you hold.

This is the key issue for me. If i play the UK national lottery (I don't as I don't see the fun in gambling, but each to their own) I know the following:

The Jackpot - 6 Numbers (Typical prize: £2 million)
6 numbers are drawn at random from the set of integers between 1 and 59, which means there are 59!/(6!*(59-6)!) combinations of numbers - this means that the jackpot chance is 1 in 45,057,474 or approximately 1 in 45 million.

5 Numbers + Bonus Number (Typical prize: £50,000)
You are still matching 6 numbers from the 1 to 59 set as above, but you can now do it in 6 different ways (by dropping each of the main numbers in turn), therefore the chance is 1 in 45,057,474/6, which works out as 1 in 7,509,579.

5 Numbers (Typical prize: £1,000)
This is 52 times more likely than getting 5 numbers + the bonus number - the chance is 1 in 7,509,579/52, which evaluates to 1 in 144,415.

4 Numbers (Typical prize: £100)
Firstly, let's take the case of the first 4 of your numbers matching and the last 2 not matching.
In this single case (where each set of chances relies on the previous event occurring):

Chance that your 1st number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 59/6.
Chance that your 2nd number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 58/5.
Chance that your 3rd number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 57/4.
Chance that your 4th number matches a winning lottery number is 1 in 56/3.
Chance that your 5th number doesn't match a winning number is 1 in 55/(55-2) [because there are still 2 unmatched winning numbers].
Chance that your 6th number doesn't match a winning number is 1 in 54/(54-2) [yes, still 2 unmatched winning numbers].

Now you need to accumulate all those chances by multiplying them together:
1 in (59/6)*(58/5)*(57/4)*(56/3)*(55/53)*(54/52) which is 1 in 32,697.73.
Now this is the chance for that single case occurring, but there are 15 combinations of matching 4 from 6, so you divide the answer by 15 to get 1 in 32697.73/15 or 1 in 2179.85.

3 Numbers (Constant prize: £10)
Follow exactly the same scheme as the 4 match above to get these figures:
1 in (59/6)*(58/5)*(57/4)*(56/53)*(55/52)*(54/51) (which is 1 in 1923.40) for a single case.
There are 20 combinations of 3 from 6, so the chance of a 3 match is 1 in 1923.40/20 or 1 in 96.2.

2 Numbers (Constant prize: Lucky Dip in the next draw - worth £2)
Follow exactly the same scheme as the 3 match above to get these figures:
1 in (59/6)*(58/5)*(57/53)*(56/52)*(55/51)*(54/50) (which is 1 in 153.87) for a single case.
There are 15 combinations of 2 from 6, so the chance of a 2 match is 1 in 153.87/15 or 1 in 10.3.

source for the above content and maths: http://playlotto.org.uk/

here i know what my chance would be of waking up tomorrow and not having to go to work ever again.

With random loot boxes, we have no idea on the odds of getting that mount we want. I might be 1/10, it might be 1/1b - there will be far far more lower prizes than higher. The key is we just don't know. The National Lottery is gambling but with an understanding at the start of how likely you are to win. If you consider the odds too long then you don't play. If we don't know if our chance of getting a mount is 1/100 or 1/100,000,000 then how can we decide if we consider those odds fair.

That is my issue with these things

the prize for 3 numbers on the uk national lottery is £25....

karldavy149b16_ESO · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Cazzy wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -

First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.

In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.

Now, Gina, show that you are honest at ZOS - and give us the chance table for these items - an honest one - this is the only thing to get an acceptance for this and to show that this is not just a blatant cash grab and preying on gambling addicts. Be honest with us and show us, that there is a reasonable chance to get these items, then we might accept it - but if it is like in Archeage with percentages of 0.1%, 0.01% and lower, then this cannot be accepted and some of us will never spend another dime on this game.

Knowing ZOS history with RNG, I expect the worst.

Well, it's their loss - it is about 180,000 crowns, which I will not spend on this game per year, and I would have played for long, but so I will leave when my ESO+ runs out in August 2017 and not spend a single US$ on this game until then - it's their loss.

Not to forget about that bunch of ESO gold edition packs, which I wanted to give as a gift to role play friends around christmas - this will as well not happen now. Nor do I need houses, and I would have bought like 12 of them - if not more - so be it - they do not want my money in a fair deal, they rather go for gamble.

I'm lucky my ESO+ is month by month so I've cancelled. Going to uninstalled tonight, which leaves loads of space for a new game. Might treat myself

no mans sky as no pay wall

The_Undefined · August 2016

No, don't ever add these into the game.

In either case, they're not taking these out. I can only hope the response to this feedback is a compromise with the items that they're putting in there and other options to obtain them, such as limited runs back on the Crown Store.