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What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
Well, if it can be established that this is actually causing harm in the real world - which should be easy to do - then there is the connection required for §138 - which does not even require to be gambling at all, any form of such immoral business deal offer would work - this can be seen differently by different judges of course - so it is kind of a gamble to try to bring this down by law - but I rather gamble like this, fulfilling my duty as a lawful citizen, than to let go on this and look the other way.1 -
The_Undefined✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Please, ZoS. I don't want to leave ESO but you're forcing me into a corner with this
You don't have to leave because of the lootbox imo. Trust me, I'm pretty vehemently against this, but it's happening. There are still amazing items in this game that have nothing to do with the cash shop. Thus far, imo, the developers have shown some love to players. The costumes from the DLC's, the personalities, pets, mounts (horses in game are very pretty), etc that is just in the game and only ask for an understandable subscription are all still there. Not the mention the gear they add in general (...most of those monster helms are pretty ugly imo though...) can totally be competitive to the costumes they add.
I would say, the appropriate time to leave is when they don't add anything to the game and put everything neat and nice in these lootboxes / cash shop. That hasn't happened, yet. Still, don't leave the game. It's a wonderful elder scrolls game. The attention to detail with the quests, voice acting, dungeons, lore, etc. is worth staying imo.Edited by The_Undefined on August 23, 2016 12:40AM1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
That is a very important distinction. Your $ transaction is for crowns. You get what is described in your transaction (x Crowns for y $), so no laws are broken.
Doesn't work like that. At least not in the US. You can convert cash into a play currency, and gambling laws still apply. The obvious example are casino chips.2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
Well, if it can be established that this is actually causing harm in the real world - which should be easy to do - then there is the connection required for §138 - which does not even require to be gambling at all, any form of such immoral business deal offer would work - this can be seen differently by different judges of course - so it is kind of a gamble to try to bring this down by law - but I rather gamble like this, fulfilling my duty as a lawful citizen, than to let go on this and look the other way.
It might actually be easier to make the case against other games that are already using this system, and have an actual history of related torts.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
Well, if it can be established that this is actually causing harm in the real world - which should be easy to do - then there is the connection required for §138 - which does not even require to be gambling at all, any form of such immoral business deal offer would work - this can be seen differently by different judges of course - so it is kind of a gamble to try to bring this down by law - but I rather gamble like this, fulfilling my duty as a lawful citizen, than to let go on this and look the other way.
It might actually be easier to make the case against other games that are already using this system, and have an actual history of related torts.
Not really, those do not have their servers in germany by a good reason, but for example in the UK - where they can get a casino license - in germany one cannot get a casion license, the state has the monopoly on this.
Edit: but you are right that it is not that easy and it might take time - because a german court will never make a decision on just hypothetical harm, it has to be actual harm, which can be proven - means there have to be actual cases - so this might take time to establish that. It depends a lot as well on the investigation and who leads it - if that is someone, who is interested in consumer protection, this might make good progress, but if it is someone who is not that eager about it, the case might be closed after a while with no further results.Edited by Lysette on August 23, 2016 12:47AM0 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Must watch video. It's about Overwatch and their cosmetic loot boxes, but very relevant to this discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWTsJZD3YFQ&index=1&list=PLlRceUcRZcK0E1Id3NHchFaxikvCvAVQe 2 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.The_Undefined wrote: »The_Undefined wrote: »In either case, they're not taking these out. I can only hope the response to this feedback is a compromise with the items that they're putting in there and other options to obtain them, such as limited runs back on the Crown Store.
I really think the same thing. I don't think there's a chance of them removing these RNG gambling boxes, but I really do hope they at least reconsider making items exclusively available in them.
I think you may have misunderstood what I said. I DON'T want items to be exclusive in them. If they're exclusive in the lootboxes, there's no other option for players to get them and they'll be locked behind a gamble wall. I'm saying, a good compromise would be to rotate items out of the lootboxes onto the crown store.
That way, players that don't want to play the expensive price on the crown store, could have a chance with the lower priced lootbox.
Also, 400 crowns is not at all a reasonable price. The chance is going to be so low, that price is ridiculous. The price for lootboxes should be 50-100 crowns. Yeah that's too cheap for the consumables, but it was ZOS's decision to put these ridiculous things in the game in the first place.
No sorry, I did understand what you meant. I agree that I do NOT want exclusive items in these boxes. It was me that poorly worded my post @The_Undefined
Actually, the exclusive items is the only issue I hold with these RNG boxes. If the items were available on the crown store (even limited time/rotated, and at a ridiculous price) I would be more okay with that. As I can make an informed purchase, and not just gamble my money away.
Unfortunately, that's not the way this works. In other games they advertise what's new in the random boxes with cool pictures of the items inside. People don't buy boxes hoping for random junk, they picture these kinds of items inside the boxes they are buying.
They need it to draw you into this. It's why they will have exclusive content. Don't fall into their trap.
1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
Well, if it can be established that this is actually causing harm in the real world - which should be easy to do - then there is the connection required for §138 - which does not even require to be gambling at all, any form of such immoral business deal offer would work - this can be seen differently by different judges of course - so it is kind of a gamble to try to bring this down by law - but I rather gamble like this, fulfilling my duty as a lawful citizen, than to let go on this and look the other way.
It might actually be easier to make the case against other games that are already using this system, and have an actual history of related torts.
Not really, those do not have their servers in germany by a good reason, but for example in the UK - where they can get a casino license - in germany one cannot get a casion license, the state has the monopoly on this.
Might be worth double checking. There are a lot of games that use lockboxes. It'd be surprising if none of them are operating out of a German server cluster. Also, subject matter jurisdiction may apply if the companies are simply doing business in the country. So charges may be in order anyway.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
Well, if it can be established that this is actually causing harm in the real world - which should be easy to do - then there is the connection required for §138 - which does not even require to be gambling at all, any form of such immoral business deal offer would work - this can be seen differently by different judges of course - so it is kind of a gamble to try to bring this down by law - but I rather gamble like this, fulfilling my duty as a lawful citizen, than to let go on this and look the other way.
It might actually be easier to make the case against other games that are already using this system, and have an actual history of related torts.
Not really, those do not have their servers in germany by a good reason, but for example in the UK - where they can get a casino license - in germany one cannot get a casion license, the state has the monopoly on this.
Might be worth double checking. There are a lot of games that use lockboxes. It'd be surprising if none of them are operating out of a German server cluster. Also, subject matter jurisdiction may apply if the companies are simply doing business in the country. So charges may be in order anyway.
I made an edit, please read that as well.0 -
Moloch1514✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
That is a very important distinction. Your $ transaction is for crowns. You get what is described in your transaction (x Crowns for y $), so no laws are broken.
Doesn't work like that. At least not in the US. You can convert cash into a play currency, and gambling laws still apply. The obvious example are casino chips.
Fair enough, I'm no lawyer! I'd love to see this challenged if possible, even if only in EU.PC-NA0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
Well, if it can be established that this is actually causing harm in the real world - which should be easy to do - then there is the connection required for §138 - which does not even require to be gambling at all, any form of such immoral business deal offer would work - this can be seen differently by different judges of course - so it is kind of a gamble to try to bring this down by law - but I rather gamble like this, fulfilling my duty as a lawful citizen, than to let go on this and look the other way.
It might actually be easier to make the case against other games that are already using this system, and have an actual history of related torts.
Not really, those do not have their servers in germany by a good reason, but for example in the UK - where they can get a casino license - in germany one cannot get a casion license, the state has the monopoly on this.
Might be worth double checking. There are a lot of games that use lockboxes. It'd be surprising if none of them are operating out of a German server cluster. Also, subject matter jurisdiction may apply if the companies are simply doing business in the country. So charges may be in order anyway.
I made an edit, please read that as well.
Yeah, no, that's normal. A crime has to be committed before you can be prosecuted for it.0 -
TheValkyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Direct sales are what make ESO appealing for vanity items. If I wanted to gamble with packs I'd just play SWTOR.5 -
No, don't ever add these into the game.
I can take my experience from a game like Smite. The highest gem bundle costs 150 EUR. Even the next "cheaper" bundles are still more than this game official cost, which means F2P = nothing.
And believe it or not, there are people who buy these bundles, sometimes more than one time in a month. I guess that "they" willl bring a similar model here. There are different "chests" / "offers" which may have a topic like "Halloween".
And the problem with boycott: there have only to be "a few" people who buy let's say the smallest amount of gems. 80% of them win all by random a unique/previous mount. People will think "it works", other people see it works because there are now more people with mount/pet ABC. They will give it also a try. Then next "chest/package" comes in store. People will try it again, buy the smallest bundle, but...they lose. Well, they say, then let's try again and still don't win. But...they maybe buy a few gems more...maybe...the bigger bundle because it says, the chance to win is higher (even though it doesn't guarantee). Some people think. well I have bought like 5,500 crowns a month which is like 35.00 EUR. I bought 5,500 crowns, then I can buy the 35.00 EUR gem bundle. I can swear to you that once you can buy these gems the same day you will see the first 10 youtube vid showing "bought TESO lootchests for 100$ LIVE unboxing". Wasn't it Overwatch where this happened after a few hours/ days after releasing their loot chests?
When I talked about people above, please understand I don't mean EVERY people, but what I try to explain, there's an amount x of people who will give it a try, because it is like "one time is like no time", which leads to, once the snowball starts rolling, you can be sure that the avalanch is near.
The sad thing about this. ...yeah, someone said "Dejavu"...it doesn't matter which game genre it is...it feels like a bad disease overcomming every game. For those who thought "Season Passes" or "Subscribing" has been the worst, the loot chest model is worse. Even in games like Rocket League it is coming.
Does this mean the end of gaming? Definitely not but a bad change in my opinon. And buying full price titles doesn't save.
I started TESO on PS4 and that was reason for me to buy the PS4...I cannot imagine who people feel who started on PC and payed already in the "you have to subscribe" aera and how much money they have already spent including crown store stuff.
The fairytale that people with less money but who can maybe spent "only" 5.00 bucks on a small chest and gain access to "rare stuff/cosmetics" already exists in other games. And yes in every fairytale there lies a little truth, and yes, maybe there is this one person who spend less money only one time and had the jackpot.
And not to mention that you can get doubles...imagine you buy the same special mount twice. But it is just cosmetics...hell yeah, but if it is "just" cosmetics, why is this announced as "something special and limited? (This is a rhetorical question).3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
That is a very important distinction. Your $ transaction is for crowns. You get what is described in your transaction (x Crowns for y $), so no laws are broken.
Doesn't work like that. At least not in the US. You can convert cash into a play currency, and gambling laws still apply. The obvious example are casino chips.
Fair enough, I'm no lawyer! I'd love to see this challenged if possible, even if only in EU.
To be honest, with the mess brewing over CSGO's gambling scene, this might get attention in the US soon.2 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Don't forget the other side of the argument . "Think of the starving Artists". The ones that can't code very well so we need online sales to put them through computer college ... Again .4 -
nimander99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -
First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.
In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.
There it is (what I made bold). Exclusive (very unique) items only obtainable via the gambling box. It's already over, they are coming and nothing is going to change it... Well, one thing could change it.
You vote with your wallets people. I'm voting no with my wallet on this one.
This is a mistake. This is a game killer. This is now Neverwinter.
Pretty soon we will start seeing in bold letters across our screens during play:
@suchandsuch JUST WON THE MOUNT OF EPIC RARITY ONLY OBTAINABLE VIA THE GAMBLING BOX!
This makes me sick. To see this coming to Tamriel makes me want to vomit. I love this game... But to see this coming... Well I guess that's that.
I'm not going to Seattle now. I love collecting unique mounts and costumes. I don't mind even buying them. Now I have to gamble to get them? I think not Zenimax, bad move.
I AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
"Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
"moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
"MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
"MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
"MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
"MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
"MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
"MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
"MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
"MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???
Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP45014 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
That is a very important distinction. Your $ transaction is for crowns. You get what is described in your transaction (x Crowns for y $), so no laws are broken.
Doesn't work like that. At least not in the US. You can convert cash into a play currency, and gambling laws still apply. The obvious example are casino chips.
Fair enough, I'm no lawyer! I'd love to see this challenged if possible, even if only in EU.
It is not about challenge to me - I think that several german laws will be broken by this, which are in place to protect customers and to punish predatory business practices. I see it as my duty to bring this to the attention of officials and those will then act on it - it is not in my hand then, but I will have done my duty and my conscience is satisfied. All other isn't up to me, but to german officials and eventually judges, how they will handle this - it is their duty and costs me nothing.Edited by Lysette on August 23, 2016 1:06AM3 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Just let me buy the damn mount with crowns if I want it. Dont make me gamble for it.
Ive been burned by this mechanic in other games and I will not be tricked by it again.Beta tester November 20139 -
Cernow✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.There's not a MMO out there which has been made better by introducing RNG lottery boxes into the game. They are nothing other than a method for milking the player base, either because the game is sinking and it's a desparate revenue stream, or because of sheer greed.
In every game you hear the same "don't like it don't buy it" and "it's only cosmetic, what's the problem" defences. But try telling that to the games where new content development has become totally dominated by the RNG boxes and where the devs are constantly filling the boxes with half-baked junk with worse and worse odds on winning anything worthwhile.
RNG boxes are not audited, the odds are not published anywhere and you've no way of knowing if you have a genuine chance of winning anything or if it's totally fixed.
Until such time as the laws and regulations that govern real world lotteries, games of chance and gambling etc are properly extended to digital products, it's buyer beware because it's essentially a 'wild west' of non-regulation.8 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
That is a very important distinction. Your $ transaction is for crowns. You get what is described in your transaction (x Crowns for y $), so no laws are broken.
Doesn't work like that. At least not in the US. You can convert cash into a play currency, and gambling laws still apply. The obvious example are casino chips.
Fair enough, I'm no lawyer! I'd love to see this challenged if possible, even if only in EU.
It is not about challenge to me - I think that several german laws will be broken by this, which are in place to protect customers and to punish predatory business practices. I see it as my duty to bring this to the attention of officials and those will then act on it - it is not in my hand then, but I will have done my duty and my conscience is satisfied. All other isn't up to me, but to german officials and eventually judges, how they will handle this - it is their duty and costs me nothing.
@Lysette, that's not what @aheck1111_ESO means by "challenged."
In this context, "challenged" is the act of opposing another party through legal action. EG: "It was challenged in court."Edited by starkerealm on August 23, 2016 1:13AM3 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.We just hit 50 pages and there is just a sea of orange.
If this is ignored I dont know if I'm sticking around.4 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »aheck1111_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »This thing has a lot of facts, which go against german laws - and the EU servers in Frankfurt are subject to these laws:
1. it is most likely an immoral business offer/deal designed in a way to achieve a significantly higher price by abusing a weakness of a contract partner - this is covered by §138 BGB
2. due to the randomization it is not clear what the price of the product is - this is against the Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV)
3. gambling in any form offered by a private organization is banned in Germany since 2008 - Interstate treaty on gambling (ISTG) was updated in 2012, but in germany the state has a monopoly on this kind of thing and online gambling is banned.
There might be other arguments to put forward, but these 3 are severe enough already.
@Lysette, I'm curious, what's the procedure for bringing a civil tort over a criminal violation to trial in Germany?
To be straight up, I'm Canadian and definitely not a lawyer... but in theory.. you are never paying money for the box. You are purchasing crowns. You are never "actually" paying money for the RNG box... Obviously, I'm not sure of the laws, but in the weird ways law works I imagine there is some ridiculous loophole.
That is a very important distinction. Your $ transaction is for crowns. You get what is described in your transaction (x Crowns for y $), so no laws are broken.
Doesn't work like that. At least not in the US. You can convert cash into a play currency, and gambling laws still apply. The obvious example are casino chips.
Fair enough, I'm no lawyer! I'd love to see this challenged if possible, even if only in EU.
It is not about challenge to me - I think that several german laws will be broken by this, which are in place to protect customers and to punish predatory business practices. I see it as my duty to bring this to the attention of officials and those will then act on it - it is not in my hand then, but I will have done my duty and my conscience is satisfied. All other isn't up to me, but to german officials and eventually judges, how they will handle this - it is their duty and costs me nothing.
@Lysette, that's not what @aheck1111_ESO means by "challenged."
In this context, "challenged" is the act of opposing another party through legal action. EG: "It was challenged in court."
Ah, I didn't know this idiom, thank you for pointing it out.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »We just hit 50 pages and there is just a sea of orange.
If this is ignored I dont know if I'm sticking around.
If this is ignored, we'll know exactly how much ZOS cares about us.10 -
The_Undefined✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.There's not a MMO out there which has been made better by introducing RNG lottery boxes into the game. They are nothing other than a method for milking the player base, either because the game is sinking and it's a desparate revenue stream, or because of sheer greed.
In every game you hear the same "don't like it don't buy it" and "it's only cosmetic, what's the problem" defences. But try telling that to the games where new content development has become totally dominated by the RNG boxes and where the devs are constantly filling the boxes with half-baked junk with worse and worse odds on winning anything worthwhile.
RNG boxes are not audited, the odds are not published anywhere and you've no way of knowing if you have a genuine chance of winning anything or if it's totally fixed.
Until such time as the laws and regulations that govern real world lotteries, games of chance and gambling etc are properly extended to digital products, it's buyer beware because it's essentially a 'wild west' of non-regulation.
I completely agree with this. Like I've said in my previous posts, there is NOTHING good that comes out of this for players. This does not make the game better, b/c we don't know where our money is going to in these purchases. "Of course it's going back to the game," right, well look at all the other games that added cash grabs or games that started out with it, they're not any better for it. It's just really frustrating to be squabbling amongst community members imo. People are fighting those that are trying to challenge this just b/c I honestly don't know. They don't care, they think people are being dramatic, or w/e. Each and everytime I've seen this system implemented, the game has gone downhill REALLY fast and the quality players that made the game fun left.
Why risk it? More players are joining the game, picking up subs for DLCs or just buying them outright, and there's even a gold edition new players will most likely pick up. Profits are good, but to go for profits without ethics is unacceptable.
Seriously, greed sucks.Edited by The_Undefined on August 23, 2016 1:20AM2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.The_Undefined wrote: »There's not a MMO out there which has been made better by introducing RNG lottery boxes into the game. They are nothing other than a method for milking the player base, either because the game is sinking and it's a desparate revenue stream, or because of sheer greed.
In every game you hear the same "don't like it don't buy it" and "it's only cosmetic, what's the problem" defences. But try telling that to the games where new content development has become totally dominated by the RNG boxes and where the devs are constantly filling the boxes with half-baked junk with worse and worse odds on winning anything worthwhile.
RNG boxes are not audited, the odds are not published anywhere and you've no way of knowing if you have a genuine chance of winning anything or if it's totally fixed.
Until such time as the laws and regulations that govern real world lotteries, games of chance and gambling etc are properly extended to digital products, it's buyer beware because it's essentially a 'wild west' of non-regulation.
I completely agree with this. Like I've said in my previous posts, there is NOTHING good that comes out of this for players. This does not make the game better, b/c we don't know where our money is going to in these purchases. "Of course it's going back to the game," right, well look at all the other games that added cash grabs or games that started out with it, they're not any better for it. It's just really frustrating to be squabbling amongst community members imo. People are fighting those that are trying to challenge this just b/c I honestly don't know. They don't care, they think people are being dramatic, or w/e. Each and everytime I've seen this system implemented, the game has gone downhill REALLY fast and the quality players that made the game fun left.
Why risk it? More players are joining the game, picking up subs for DLCs or just buying them outright, and there's even a gold edition new players will most likely pick up. Profits are good, but to go for profits without ethics is unacceptable.
Seriously, greed sucks.
Well, it actually devalues the game. I mean, makes the game less valuable as a product. MMOs require a community to keep going. All that random blathering in zone that's tempered by longtime players who can actually provide coherent information? What happens when they start to leave? When no one can actually answer the questions getting asked in those zones? And, granted, that's an extreme example, but it's one I've logged into on other games that went to boxes and gutted their community. When the vets leave, the game becomes less accessible for newbies.5 -
Waseem✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.the community is against mystery boxes.
next week at PAX, we'll hear "insert ZOS employee name here" saying : we listen to players feedback and suggestions, and here we are, making previously released crown store items available again- with minimal talk that its RNG based mystery boxesPC EU6 -
elvenmad✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »The_Undefined wrote: »There's not a MMO out there which has been made better by introducing RNG lottery boxes into the game. They are nothing other than a method for milking the player base, either because the game is sinking and it's a desparate revenue stream, or because of sheer greed.
In every game you hear the same "don't like it don't buy it" and "it's only cosmetic, what's the problem" defences. But try telling that to the games where new content development has become totally dominated by the RNG boxes and where the devs are constantly filling the boxes with half-baked junk with worse and worse odds on winning anything worthwhile.
RNG boxes are not audited, the odds are not published anywhere and you've no way of knowing if you have a genuine chance of winning anything or if it's totally fixed.
Until such time as the laws and regulations that govern real world lotteries, games of chance and gambling etc are properly extended to digital products, it's buyer beware because it's essentially a 'wild west' of non-regulation.
I completely agree with this. Like I've said in my previous posts, there is NOTHING good that comes out of this for players. This does not make the game better, b/c we don't know where our money is going to in these purchases. "Of course it's going back to the game," right, well look at all the other games that added cash grabs or games that started out with it, they're not any better for it. It's just really frustrating to be squabbling amongst community members imo. People are fighting those that are trying to challenge this just b/c I honestly don't know. They don't care, they think people are being dramatic, or w/e. Each and everytime I've seen this system implemented, the game has gone downhill REALLY fast and the quality players that made the game fun left.
Why risk it? More players are joining the game, picking up subs for DLCs or just buying them outright, and there's even a gold edition new players will most likely pick up. Profits are good, but to go for profits without ethics is unacceptable.
Seriously, greed sucks.
Well, it actually devalues the game. I mean, makes the game less valuable as a product. MMOs require a community to keep going. All that random blathering in zone that's tempered by longtime players who can actually provide coherent information? What happens when they start to leave? When no one can actually answer the questions getting asked in those zones? And, granted, that's an extreme example, but it's one I've logged into on other games that went to boxes and gutted their community. When the vets leave, the game becomes less accessible for newbies.
I can agree, seen it in a few games post RNG boxes, vet players leave and not long after all there is left is the 'whales' who do nothing but stand afk in major cities all day and the naive new players asking in zone chat 'were do we get keys for lock boxes ?' if they are very lucky someone will answer 'cash shop' ...then it all goes quiet.............
Edited by elvenmad on August 23, 2016 1:36AM< PC - EU >1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.And then there is this frustration about that they do this to an Elder Scrolls game - and throw dirt and shame on the label, which could be a light in the darkness of other MMOs, be the oasis for players, who are sick and tired of the typical f2p MMO. The world of Tamriel has tradition meanwhile and is a great "platform" to build something amazing on - but this gets more and more ruined by the introduction of more and more cash-grab schemes which are getting more and more immoral as well.
How could they do that to such a popular label as Elder Scrolls and devalue it by doing so?4 -
Esquire1980g_ESO✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »The_Undefined wrote: »There's not a MMO out there which has been made better by introducing RNG lottery boxes into the game. They are nothing other than a method for milking the player base, either because the game is sinking and it's a desparate revenue stream, or because of sheer greed.
In every game you hear the same "don't like it don't buy it" and "it's only cosmetic, what's the problem" defences. But try telling that to the games where new content development has become totally dominated by the RNG boxes and where the devs are constantly filling the boxes with half-baked junk with worse and worse odds on winning anything worthwhile.
RNG boxes are not audited, the odds are not published anywhere and you've no way of knowing if you have a genuine chance of winning anything or if it's totally fixed.
Until such time as the laws and regulations that govern real world lotteries, games of chance and gambling etc are properly extended to digital products, it's buyer beware because it's essentially a 'wild west' of non-regulation.
I completely agree with this. Like I've said in my previous posts, there is NOTHING good that comes out of this for players. This does not make the game better, b/c we don't know where our money is going to in these purchases. "Of course it's going back to the game," right, well look at all the other games that added cash grabs or games that started out with it, they're not any better for it. It's just really frustrating to be squabbling amongst community members imo. People are fighting those that are trying to challenge this just b/c I honestly don't know. They don't care, they think people are being dramatic, or w/e. Each and everytime I've seen this system implemented, the game has gone downhill REALLY fast and the quality players that made the game fun left.
Why risk it? More players are joining the game, picking up subs for DLCs or just buying them outright, and there's even a gold edition new players will most likely pick up. Profits are good, but to go for profits without ethics is unacceptable.
Seriously, greed sucks.
Well, it actually devalues the game. I mean, makes the game less valuable as a product. MMOs require a community to keep going. All that random blathering in zone that's tempered by longtime players who can actually provide coherent information? What happens when they start to leave? When no one can actually answer the questions getting asked in those zones? And, granted, that's an extreme example, but it's one I've logged into on other games that went to boxes and gutted their community. When the vets leave, the game becomes less accessible for newbies.
Now, there's that NGE citation and similarity. And, yep, seen it myself a couple of times.
Edit: The last time I "played the forums", (on the forums and not logged into the game) was, wait for it, the NGE. lolEdited by Esquire1980g_ESO on August 23, 2016 1:54AM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.starkerealm wrote: »The_Undefined wrote: »There's not a MMO out there which has been made better by introducing RNG lottery boxes into the game. They are nothing other than a method for milking the player base, either because the game is sinking and it's a desparate revenue stream, or because of sheer greed.
In every game you hear the same "don't like it don't buy it" and "it's only cosmetic, what's the problem" defences. But try telling that to the games where new content development has become totally dominated by the RNG boxes and where the devs are constantly filling the boxes with half-baked junk with worse and worse odds on winning anything worthwhile.
RNG boxes are not audited, the odds are not published anywhere and you've no way of knowing if you have a genuine chance of winning anything or if it's totally fixed.
Until such time as the laws and regulations that govern real world lotteries, games of chance and gambling etc are properly extended to digital products, it's buyer beware because it's essentially a 'wild west' of non-regulation.
I completely agree with this. Like I've said in my previous posts, there is NOTHING good that comes out of this for players. This does not make the game better, b/c we don't know where our money is going to in these purchases. "Of course it's going back to the game," right, well look at all the other games that added cash grabs or games that started out with it, they're not any better for it. It's just really frustrating to be squabbling amongst community members imo. People are fighting those that are trying to challenge this just b/c I honestly don't know. They don't care, they think people are being dramatic, or w/e. Each and everytime I've seen this system implemented, the game has gone downhill REALLY fast and the quality players that made the game fun left.
Why risk it? More players are joining the game, picking up subs for DLCs or just buying them outright, and there's even a gold edition new players will most likely pick up. Profits are good, but to go for profits without ethics is unacceptable.
Seriously, greed sucks.
Well, it actually devalues the game. I mean, makes the game less valuable as a product. MMOs require a community to keep going. All that random blathering in zone that's tempered by longtime players who can actually provide coherent information? What happens when they start to leave? When no one can actually answer the questions getting asked in those zones? And, granted, that's an extreme example, but it's one I've logged into on other games that went to boxes and gutted their community. When the vets leave, the game becomes less accessible for newbies.
I can agree, seen it in a few games post RNG boxes, vet players leave and not long after all there is left is the 'whales' who do nothing but stand afk in major cities all day and the naive new players asking in zone chat 'were do we get keys for lock boxes ?' if they are very lucky someone will answer 'cash shop' ...then it all goes quiet.............
It was actually kinda disturbing the last time I logged into STO. I was standing on ESD and zone was completely silent. Nothing. DOFFjobs was still blathering away happily, but there was nothing on the public channels.1
This discussion has been closed.