On Sorcs and Implosion

covenant_merchant

Okay, now that implosion has been, unfortunately, fixed, lets talk about it.
6% chance to do around 10k physical damage on an enemy under 15% of health...
Does anyone see an issue with that?
Why is it a 15% threshold? The proc chance might be low, but you can argue that the damage done compensates it, but come on, why is it freaking 15% health? Every other execute has a higher threshold, and that's without mentioning Radiant Destruction, which makes Cyrodiil an unhappy place filled with beams and cancerous playstyle.
Yes, stamina sorcs do fare better at the moment than they used to, but compared to other classes, lets face it, our passives suck very very much.
With Malubeth still not being fixed, and I'm not talking about the "double dipping bug", there's seriously no way a stamsorc fares better than a stamdk or stamplar with major mending, or hell even stamblade with poisons and a 50 ulti - 12k damage ulti on guys with 2k crit resist.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom is there any reason why our "execute" ability should proc at 15%?

When implosion being bugged served to make stamsorc ON PAR with other stamina clases, that just tells you how broken your idea of balance is.

Just look at all the crying sorc threads on the forums; if that many people go out of their way to post about it, then there is clearly an issue.
Would it be possible to provide an explanation regarding implosion and its threshold? Personally, I would be satisfied with any sort of answer, ranging from "just reroll templar and stop complaining" to "sorcs are the support/healing class. Screw dealing damage".

#makeCyrodiilgreatagain
#savethesorcs

psychotic13

Stop thinking of it as an execute, it doesn't cost an ability slot on your bar, it's fine stop complaining.

covenant_merchant

Fine? How on earth is it fine? Please tell me, you actually play sorc and are satisfied with its current state

psychotic13

It's a passive, it's fine. How can you complain about a passive that may do 10k damage? You can't compare it to an execute. If you want an execute so bad use executioner if you're a Stam sorc?

You said you'd be satisfied with any sort of answer, so 'roll a NB'

I main a Magicka sorc, no I'm not completely satisfied with its current state, but it would only take a small change or 2 to make them on par.

InvitationNotFound

psychotic13 wrote: »

It's a passive, it's fine. How can you complain about a passive that may do 10k damage? You can't compare it to an execute. If you want an execute so bad use executioner if you're a Stam sorc?

You said you'd be satisfied with any sort of answer, so 'roll a NB'

I main a Magicka sorc, no I'm not completely satisfied with its current state, but it would only take a small change or 2 to make them on par.

*sighs* nope.

psychotic13

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

It's a passive, it's fine. How can you complain about a passive that may do 10k damage? You can't compare it to an execute. If you want an execute so bad use executioner if you're a Stam sorc?

You said you'd be satisfied with any sort of answer, so 'roll a NB'

I main a Magicka sorc, no I'm not completely satisfied with its current state, but it would only take a small change or 2 to make them on par.

*sighs* nope.

It really would, there isn't a problem with shields before you start. But please elaborate?

Ahzek

I main a stamina sorc since ages and im perfectly fine with implosions current implementation. It is a 6% chance of phisical damage to instakill your target. It is NOT an execute ability (like pointed out by someone else already), but instead a usefull passive that adds some flavor to the class.

Waffennacht

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

covenant_merchant

Meh, I guess you seem to misunderstand me. I do consider that stamsorcs are better than they used to be, but in terms of passives, they are still quite bad.
Making the implosion at a 15% threshold renders it almost useless considering you can just reverse slice your target to death at that point.
The increased stamina regen is conditional on your use of bound armaments, which many people do not have the space to slot.
Dual wielding is all well and good, but in PVP open world, unless you duel or spam steel tornado in raid groups, it's still less that brilliant. You have no gap closer, no CC, no viable heal (come on, blood craze + surge is way shittier than rally). And if you want to gap close, have dots and heals and a cc, you certainly have no more space on your bars for bound armaments.

I do prefer stamsorc to stamblade or any other stamina classes, but there's just something so depressing about your passives being trash even after improvements.

covenant_merchant

And they did intend for implosion to be a "stamsorc execute", which is why i label it as such

timidobserver

I would like a 25% threshold, but I do like implosion. Mine can proc for over 20k buffed.

psychotic13

You can use crit rush as a gap closer, and you can still use streak to close the gap.

yes it's a sort of execute, but don't compare it to radiant destruction you just look stupid.

tnanever

kasa-obake wrote: »

Okay, now that implosion has been, unfortunately, fixed, lets talk about it.
6% chance to do around 10k physical damage on an enemy under 15% of health...
Does anyone see an issue with that?
Why is it a 15% threshold? The proc chance might be low, but you can argue that the damage done compensates it, but come on, why is it freaking 15% health? Every other execute has a higher threshold, and that's without mentioning Radiant Destruction, which makes Cyrodiil an unhappy place filled with beams and cancerous playstyle.
Yes, stamina sorcs do fare better at the moment than they used to, but compared to other classes, lets face it, our passives suck very very much.
With Malubeth still not being fixed, and I'm not talking about the "double dipping bug", there's seriously no way a stamsorc fares better than a stamdk or stamplar with major mending, or hell even stamblade with poisons and a 50 ulti - 12k damage ulti on guys with 2k crit resist.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom is there any reason why our "execute" ability should proc at 15%?

When implosion being bugged served to make stamsorc ON PAR with other stamina clases, that just tells you how broken your idea of balance is.

Just look at all the crying sorc threads on the forums; if that many people go out of their way to post about it, then there is clearly an issue.
Would it be possible to provide an explanation regarding implosion and its threshold? Personally, I would be satisfied with any sort of answer, ranging from "just reroll templar and stop complaining" to "sorcs are the support/healing class. Screw dealing damage".

#makeCyrodiilgreatagain
#savethesorcs

I think the bigger problem is how much garbage Mage Fury is. If Mage Fury is going to be so crappy, then they should boost Implosion's threshold to 25% (at least) - If they just fix Mage Fury (let's say 50% to be on par with others), then this would be a non-issue.

Dixa

psychotic13 wrote: »

Stop thinking of it as an execute, it doesn't cost an ability slot on your bar, it's fine stop complaining.

i agree with your reasoning to a point - stam sorcs don't have an execute at all outside of this passive.

with stam sorc being the only decent way to play sorcs right now, not having a decent or reliable execute is kinda poopy in pve.

Dixa

tnanever wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Okay, now that implosion has been, unfortunately, fixed, lets talk about it.
6% chance to do around 10k physical damage on an enemy under 15% of health...
Does anyone see an issue with that?
Why is it a 15% threshold? The proc chance might be low, but you can argue that the damage done compensates it, but come on, why is it freaking 15% health? Every other execute has a higher threshold, and that's without mentioning Radiant Destruction, which makes Cyrodiil an unhappy place filled with beams and cancerous playstyle.
Yes, stamina sorcs do fare better at the moment than they used to, but compared to other classes, lets face it, our passives suck very very much.
With Malubeth still not being fixed, and I'm not talking about the "double dipping bug", there's seriously no way a stamsorc fares better than a stamdk or stamplar with major mending, or hell even stamblade with poisons and a 50 ulti - 12k damage ulti on guys with 2k crit resist.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom is there any reason why our "execute" ability should proc at 15%?

When implosion being bugged served to make stamsorc ON PAR with other stamina clases, that just tells you how broken your idea of balance is.

Just look at all the crying sorc threads on the forums; if that many people go out of their way to post about it, then there is clearly an issue.
Would it be possible to provide an explanation regarding implosion and its threshold? Personally, I would be satisfied with any sort of answer, ranging from "just reroll templar and stop complaining" to "sorcs are the support/healing class. Screw dealing damage".

#makeCyrodiilgreatagain
#savethesorcs

I think the bigger problem is how much garbage Mage Fury is. If Mage Fury is going to be so crappy, then they should boost Implosion's threshold to 25% (at least) - If they just fix Mage Fury (let's say 50% to be on par with others), then this would be a non-issue.

only if mage's fury got a stamina morph at the same time.

Dixa

kasa-obake wrote: »

Meh, I guess you seem to misunderstand me. I do consider that stamsorcs are better than they used to be, but in terms of passives, they are still quite bad.
Making the implosion at a 15% threshold renders it almost useless considering you can just reverse slice your target to death at that point.
The increased stamina regen is conditional on your use of bound armaments, which many people do not have the space to slot.
Dual wielding is all well and good, but in PVP open world, unless you duel or spam steel tornado in raid groups, it's still less that brilliant. You have no gap closer, no CC, no viable heal (come on, blood craze + surge is way shittier than rally). And if you want to gap close, have dots and heals and a cc, you certainly have no more space on your bars for bound armaments.

I do prefer stamsorc to stamblade or any other stamina classes, but there's just something so depressing about your passives being trash even after improvements.

if your thread was about pvp, please specify that in the original post.

Kensei_ESO

OP, I'm sorry but stam sorc tears have been wiped away this patch. They are really awesome now. Even the infamous @Fengrush has slowed his public moaning...

In my opinion, Stormcalling has become the best offensive PvP class tree for a stamina character, with Aedric Spear in close second (Assassination/Shadow are often more lethal but Nightblades are all cheese).

Of course we can all rally around the banner of needing more skill and build options. There are lots of ways to solve that problem, but I hope ZOS soon comes around to the realization that rigid class systems are lame and outdated (not to mention a balancing nightmare) and they start to offer further character progression through eventual access to other class trees while also adding new trees to the game.

FENGRUSH

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

FENGRUSH

Solariken wrote: »

OP, I'm sorry but stam sorc tears have been wiped away this patch. They are really awesome now. Even the infamous @Fengrush has slowed his public moaning...

In my opinion, Stormcalling has become the best offensive PvP class tree for a stamina character, with Aedric Spear in close second (Assassination/Shadow are often more lethal but Nightblades are all cheese).

Of course we can all rally around the banner of needing more skill and build options. There are lots of ways to solve that problem, but I hope ZOS soon comes around to the realization that rigid class systems are lame and outdated (not to mention a balancing nightmare) and they start to offer further character progression through eventual access to other class trees while also adding new trees to the game.

Public moaning?!

Oh man - you guys clearly havent walked a mile in stam sorcs shoes from 1.7 up to end of thieves guild..

olsborg

Its not rly an execute per se. Its a passive, a pretty strong passive as ive killed ppl alot with disintegrate.

Stannum

As for my build 6% is enought.
Cause of 6% proc on each lightning blocade tick, 6% proc on each boundless storm tick, 6% on eack lightning reach tick, 6% on each lightning ring tick and cast, 6% on each heavy tick, 6% on each weapon enchant proc and also on overload, croushing shock and mage fury use.. )))

psychotic13

Why is everyone complaining about @FENGRUSH I didn't even realise he posted here.

He has always stuck with Stam Sorc and no one can deny how little they've had going for them

GrigorijMalahevich

For my 5 cents, the whole idea of Implosion is stupid. Execute at 15% which means that the target running average 25000 health will be at 3750 health and then you have a 6% chance to do 10k damage. Lets face it - it is the most useless thing ever, any attack/ability is better than this execute.
Probably running Hurricane (or whatever it is called) in a big fight is sort of useful, but still 6% chance to kill an enemy that will die from any other hit is too low.

psychotic13

But it's a passive... You don't even have to do anything to activate it, Jesus Christ it's like talking to a brick wall on this forum.

Brrrofski

Lol @ people getting on Fengrush's back because they tried a very buffed stamsorc this patch.

Implosion is still useful. I often get people on the tiniest bit of health another dodge my execute it it get hit by someone else or they get healed etc. Getting someone to 15% health shouldn't be an auto kill. You can still come back from that.

Jar_Ek

Stam sorcerer is in a pretty good place now, and Implosion is not your execute - that's weapon skills. Implosion is your free passive execution.

My only dislike is that critical surge is relatively weak (compared to the old surge) and was not buffed as Power Surge was.

Waffennacht

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

FENGRUSH

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.


I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

Aemon_Isklexi

psychotic13 wrote: »

But it's a passive... You don't even have to do anything to activate it, Jesus Christ it's like talking to a brick wall on this forum.

But you do have to activate it. You have to hit the target with an attack that deals physical or lightning damage. The problem therein is that at 15% health many single target attacks have a decent chance of killing them anyway. It also has a very low activation chance at 6% making it very unreliable. The best way to activate it (as you mentioned yourself) are damage over time effects that deal the correct damage type.

The point of an execute ability is to guarantee a kill. That's why the best ones are those that can be used on demand or always come in to play when you need them. Examples would be the dual wield passive that is always active when the target is below the health threshold or (the aptly named) executioner from the two handed line that is an activated skill.

My Stam sorcerer is a dungeon tank. I keep hurricane up basically 100% of the time. I see an implosion proc maybe two to three times in a single dungeon.

Joy_Division

A passive AoE execute is incredibly strong.

It's mind boggling that you are comparing this to actual casted abilities.

Bdawwg

People will never be happy

Edited:
As a stam sorc you have 3 options for executes
1) all dual wield abilities
2) poison injections
3) reverse slice

Yes that's not as many as the other stam classes (stamblade with killers blade) but it's more than the magicka builds who get one class execute each (apart from mag dk that has nothing) but please continue to moan about a passive that will execute for you.