On Sorcs and Implosion

Bromburak

Waffennacht wrote: »

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees.

All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

Since when a weapon line is part of a class and why the heck should you chose a Sorc if a weapon is your only argument?

Waffennacht wrote: »

I have, Imo the most unique sorcerer viable end game build there is. And still it's all the same abilities as other magicka sorcs.

"With all your complaining did you ever try to be unique outside of stam sorc?" - Should be the quote.

Who cares if magicka sorcs can be good If it's pigeonholed into one exact build? I sure as hell find that to be more of a reason to complain that your min maxed build just doesn't completely decimate 3 players but only 2, or your vMA score is just not AS high.

Your build got it done, your stam sorc was unique, yes and so you could've gone a lot of other routes, though not as effective you had them. We don't even have an option to try a "crap tree line"

You're complaining your choices sucked, I'm saying at least you have them.

Your definition and understanding of a unique sorc build is quite entertaining.

Someone that claims having a unique build while using the same abilities as all the other magicka sorcs, really?
As a magicka sorc you have many choices that actually have their root in class abilities to become more efficient
while a stam sorc cannot as per design.

@FENGRUSH choices sucked because the real strength of the sorc lays somewhere else to perform much better.
Technically we actually don't pick a class, we pick a resource and then we test and try out things that result in highly efficient unique builds.

A class it self is only a pre defined set of abilities, more important are the resulting builds setup by the player. But if his decision really can make use of the class potential can vary between 0-100% especially when depending on resource.

Most Magicka builds are actually using class abilities while Stamina builds are not.
One reason I do not agree with Wrobel either, because average players don't pick a class just to end up with nice passives and using 20% of their class abilities on quick slots only. They expect a bit more from "pre defined abilities", a class needs to offer this independent of the resource decision a player makes.

A Stam sorc has no choice and heavily relies on weapon lines or any other "external" stuff to justify his class of choice ...
Wtf is this, you restrict players to a resource decision they make , this has nothing todo with freedom of class choice , it's simply a severe design issue.

Dracane

Wasn't Implosion, formerly disintegration heavily nerfed ?
Low health starts at 25% health and that's where it started to proc if I am not mistaken. (the tooltip used to say, that it procs on low health targets) 15% health is useless for both, magicka and stamina.

Implosion should work more like Burning light. It always has a chance to proc, with increasing strenght the lower the targets health is.

Bromburak

Dracane wrote: »

Implosion should work more like Burning light. It always has a chance to proc, with increasing strenght the lower the targets health is.

No man, you cannot compare burning light with implosion.
The thing here is not the bonus on damage, it's the impact on self heals.

Technically it's more like Sorcs Blood magic because it also procs on shielded targets without suffering self heals like Templar
procs do. Sweep damage didn't heal you as expected when burning light procced because self heals were calculated by n% damage made by BL and not by n% of sweep damage. Ask Templars how funny that is when you heavily rely on high crits and compare this with current crit surge changes.

Here we go again, just another class ...

Dracane

Bromburak wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Implosion should work more like Burning light. It always has a chance to proc, with increasing strenght the lower the targets health is.

No man, you cannot compare burning light with implosion.
The thing here is not the bonus on damage, it's the impact on self heals.

Technically it's more like Sorcs Blood magic because it also procs on shielded targets without suffering self heals like Templar
procs do. Sweep damage didn't heal you as expected when burning light procced because self heals were calculated by n% damage made by BL and not by n% of sweep damage. Ask Templars how funny that is when you heavily rely on high crits and compare this with current crit surge changes.

Here we go again, just another class ...

I did not compare anything I only said, that it could work more like burning light, since Implosion only has a foolish 6% proc chance.

And I don't understand anything of what you wrote after this I can't even ask, because I don't understand it at all.
Sweeps heal you with any hit, burning light does not interfere with these heals at all. What does burning light have in common with heals anyway ? It just deals damage and it does so frequently

Waffennacht

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees.

All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

Since when a weapon line is part of a class and why the heck should you chose a Sorc if a weapon is your only argument?

Waffennacht wrote: »

I have, Imo the most unique sorcerer viable end game build there is. And still it's all the same abilities as other magicka sorcs.

"With all your complaining did you ever try to be unique outside of stam sorc?" - Should be the quote.

Who cares if magicka sorcs can be good If it's pigeonholed into one exact build? I sure as hell find that to be more of a reason to complain that your min maxed build just doesn't completely decimate 3 players but only 2, or your vMA score is just not AS high.

Your build got it done, your stam sorc was unique, yes and so you could've gone a lot of other routes, though not as effective you had them. We don't even have an option to try a "crap tree line"

You're complaining your choices sucked, I'm saying at least you have them.

Your definition and understanding of a unique sorc build is quite entertaining.

Someone that claims having a unique build while using the same abilities as all the other magicka sorcs, really?
As a magicka sorc you have many choices that actually have their root in class abilities to become more efficient
while a stam sorc cannot as per design.

@FENGRUSH choices sucked because the real strength of the sorc lays somewhere else to perform much better.
Technically we actually don't pick a class, we pick a resource and then we test and try out things that result in highly efficient unique builds.

A class it self is only a pre defined set of abilities, more important are the resulting builds setup by the player. But if his decision really can make use of the class potential can vary between 0-100% especially when depending on resource.

Most Magicka builds are actually using class abilities while Stamina builds are not.
One reason I do not agree with Wrobel either, because average players don't pick a class just to end up with nice passives and using 20% of their class abilities on quick slots only. They expect a bit more from "pre defined abilities", a class needs to offer this independent of the resource decision a player makes.

A Stam sorc has no choice and heavily relies on weapon lines or any other "external" stuff to justify his class of choice ...
Wtf is this, you restrict players to a resource decision they make , this has nothing todo with freedom of class choice , it's simply a severe design issue.

Just making this quick, yeah same moves different armors, CP, and potions so yeah I can be unique because you know, there are more than abilities. Yes it's the most unique of an extremely difficult to be unique in pigeonholed magicka sorc class.

But whatever, you clearly have astonishing powers of reading comprehension and shouldn't be bothered with an explanation of what I already said...

Jar_Ek

Up until DB stamina sorcerers were pretty build limited btw - there were very few competitive builds despite the weapon options. You generally found people built around wb because only direct damage triggered surge heals. This is no longer the case and stamina sorcerers have many more options (in part due to stamina buffs in general).

So I know how painful it is to have an extremely limited set of options and hence I feel for my magicka brethren (i also have a magicka sorcerer and so know first hand). However may I suggest that constructive ideas backed up with solid data (and ideally video footage) seems to work best at demonstrating the issues that a given class has. And btw the game has to be appealing to scrubs and pros alike, so isn't balance at least partially about making classes equally accessible?

Bromburak

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just making this quick, yeah same moves different armors, CP, and potions

No it's not the same, you just don't know the difference between helpful external adjustments available for everyone and a basis provided by a class without depending on resource. It's been called freedom of choice and it's a fact that you rely on external skill lines as a stam sorc and less on class abilities.

You are blaming Fengrush for bashing the Stam Sorc since release for a questionable design.
But he has a point, while you don't. So the question remains why would you pick a class when you end up with less class abilities and rely on external skills like weapons so much.

Once again players want to pick a class without gimping themselves but the reality is that they rely on a resource and need to go from there. Now you claim as a Magicka Sorc that Stam sorcs are having a lot more choices. Hilarious.

Waffennacht

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just making this quick, yeah same moves different armors, CP, and potions

No it's not the same, you just don't know the difference between helpful external adjustments available for everyone and a basis provided by a class without depending on resource. It's been called freedom of choice and it's a fact that you rely on external skill lines as a stam sorc and less on class abilities.

You are blaming Fengrush for bashing the Stam Sorc since release for a questionable design.
But he has a point, while you don't. So the question remains why would you pick a class when you end up with less class abilities and rely on external skills like weapons so much.

Once again players want to pick a class without gimping themselves but the reality is that they rely on a resource and need to go from there. Now you claim as a Magicka Sorc that Stam sorcs are having a lot more choices. Hilarious.

I picked sorcerer about 1.3 years ago. At that time I only played magicka sorc. You may ask why did I stay with it? Because I didn't want to grind the mountain that was Alliance skills or the veteran ranks without enlightened.

Aka, only recently has there been options to make an alt for someone whom only has as much time as I do to play.

My point which can't be argued. Is: Stamina has more options than magicka. Any player complaining about lack of options that is stamina has no room to talk. Period. I don't give a flying @$!# that FENGRUSH didn't beat vMA easily enough because flurry just wasn't up to standards.

Stamina has always had more options, more fun, and better time than magicka since console release. End of Story. FENGRUSH was spoiled complaining about his choices. Again, at least he had choices.

Anyone whom has played magicka for over a year will find a Far easier time being a stam character because the game incentives stamina. Period. GG, please play again.

Bromburak

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point which can't be argued. Is: Stamina has more options than magicka.

You a real funny guy, of course it can be argued because you are still ignoring the fact that you don't pick a class
to use abilities that are not been provided by the class it self.

And having a pure stat machine and reasonable passives are not enough to praise the stam changes since release , this will not improve lack of utility either. Now you expect players to build work arounds because of this sloppy class design? Sorry, but it's Wrobels job to offer solutions for a balanced class independent of resource choice instead telling players , oh well just use one of the weapons viable for stamina.

Stamina has always had more options, more fun, and better time than magicka since console release. End of Story.

Nope, because this is not about fun it's about builds that are questionable because they could be more flexible and perform much better in comparison to any other class when it comes to harmonizing class abilities.

FENGRUSH was spoiled complaining about his choices. Again, at least he had choices.

Anyone whom has played magicka for over a year will find a Far easier time being a stam character because the game incentives stamina.

A stam character implies that you have the choice of 4 classes and anyone who plays this game knows that all other classes harmonize much better with Stamina than a Sorc.

You cannot blame players for the unfinished class design that heavily depends on resource selections. It simply makes no sense to pick a class when it barely provides something special or at least proper morphs that harmonize with your resource choice.

SwaminoNowlino

Stamina Templar : Jabs, Javelin, Power of the Light. Class abilities that provide utility and damage based on Stamina.
Stamina Dragon Knight: Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw, Dragon Leap (and I think a few others). Class abilities that provide utility and damage based on stamina.
Stamina Nightblade: Just about every class ability has a choice between magicka and stamina. Class passives synergize very well with both types of build.
Stamina Sorcerer: Not a thing until DB when they got Hurricane.

How is this even still a discussion?

Waffennacht

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point which can't be argued. Is: Stamina has more options than magicka.

You a real funny guy, of course it can be argued because you are still ignoring the fact that you don't pick a class
to use abilities that are not been provided by the class it self.

The point is that a pure stat machine and reasonable passives are not enough to praise the stam changes since release and it will not improve lack of utility either. Now you expect players to build work arounds because of this sloppy class design? Sorry, but thats Wrobels job.

Stamina has always had more options, more fun, and better time than magicka since console release. End of Story.

Nope, because this is not about fun it's about builds that are questionable because they could be more flexible and perform much better in comparison to any other class when it comes to harmonizing class abilities.

FENGRUSH was spoiled complaining about his choices. Again, at least he had choices.

Anyone whom has played magicka for over a year will find a Far easier time being a stam character because the game incentives stamina.

A stam character implies that you have the choice of 4 classes and anyone who plays this game knows that all other classes harmonize much better with Stamina than a Sorc.

Sorry, but you cannot blame players for the unfinished class design.
For most players there is no reason to play or try a Stam Sorc for a reason.
There are still exceptions like Fengrush and others including my self trying to come up with work arounds and viable builds but it doesn't change the fact that Stam Sorcs are unfinished per design because it makes no sense to pick a class when you barely use it skills. End of story.

First, I find that "it's not about fun" sad.

Your point that stam sorc specifically need work, and the over all game mechanics is not wrong, but isn't contradictory to what I'm saying either.

Stam sorc may be at the bottom of the hill in stam builds, again not relevant to what I'm saying. I can point out 2H had WB,and Rally, DW had spin2win and bow had snipe. That list is more variety than any magicka build has, destro staff and resto... nice... one attack weapon... nice.

So your argument maybe, "no class stam abilities" that would matter if the build was in a bubble and didn't have access to weapon skills. It seems to me you guys finished the hardest content in game without em. And you ask "why pick stam sorc?"

Good question if you don't like the class.

R you upset other classes do better because you made a conscious decision to pick a "gimped" class? (But apparently not gimped enough to prevent you from doing anything...)

ZOS_AlanG

Hi guys, this thread is getting a bit heated. It's perfectly fine to debate or disagree, but it is important to keep this respectful. Please remember to keep your posts civil and constructive, as we discuss in greater depth here.

MrTarkanian48

Waffennacht wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point which can't be argued. Is: Stamina has more options than magicka.

You a real funny guy, of course it can be argued because you are still ignoring the fact that you don't pick a class
to use abilities that are not been provided by the class it self.

The point is that a pure stat machine and reasonable passives are not enough to praise the stam changes since release and it will not improve lack of utility either. Now you expect players to build work arounds because of this sloppy class design? Sorry, but thats Wrobels job.

Stamina has always had more options, more fun, and better time than magicka since console release. End of Story.

Nope, because this is not about fun it's about builds that are questionable because they could be more flexible and perform much better in comparison to any other class when it comes to harmonizing class abilities.

FENGRUSH was spoiled complaining about his choices. Again, at least he had choices.

Anyone whom has played magicka for over a year will find a Far easier time being a stam character because the game incentives stamina.

A stam character implies that you have the choice of 4 classes and anyone who plays this game knows that all other classes harmonize much better with Stamina than a Sorc.

Sorry, but you cannot blame players for the unfinished class design.
For most players there is no reason to play or try a Stam Sorc for a reason.
There are still exceptions like Fengrush and others including my self trying to come up with work arounds and viable builds but it doesn't change the fact that Stam Sorcs are unfinished per design because it makes no sense to pick a class when you barely use it skills. End of story.

First, I find that "it's not about fun" sad.

Your point that stam sorc specifically need work, and the over all game mechanics is not wrong, but isn't contradictory to what I'm saying either.

Stam sorc may be at the bottom of the hill in stam builds, again not relevant to what I'm saying. I can point out 2H had WB,and Rally, DW had spin2win and bow had snipe. That list is more variety than any magicka build has, destro staff and resto... nice... one attack weapon... nice.

So your argument maybe, "no class stam abilities" that would matter if the build was in a bubble and didn't have access to weapon skills. It seems to me you guys finished the hardest content in game without em. And you ask "why pick stam sorc?"

Good question if you don't like the class.

R you upset other classes do better because you made a conscious decision to pick a "gimped" class? (But apparently not gimped enough to prevent you from doing anything...)

@Waffennacht

This thread was about the new Implosion passive for Stam Sorc.

Then you come in and keep calling out Fengrush. He didn't even comment on this thread until you pulled him, but you keep bashing him and calling him a complainer when "Stam Sorc apparently has always had so many options". You obviously have some personal problem with the fact that he was campaigning for some Stam Sorc/Stam Build improvements, and I have no idea why. If you don't like it or don't agree, than just don't listen, but people come here to give their opinions. Many other people agree with a lot of the points that he would make regarding Stam Sorc, because they had experienced a lot of the same issues, and they actually played the class before the DB update. There just doesn't seem to be any reason to keep bringing him up, when the majority of people playing Stam Sorc would agree with his assessment of the class in comparison to other stamina builds.

I haven't played a Magicka Sorc. There obviously seem to be a decent amount of people upset since the DB patch. However, prior to this patch I don't recall seeing many posts complaining of Mag Sorc performance because they were topping charts in vMA and one of the strongest classes in Cyrodiil. However, this is my observation and I am not an expert.

If you have such a problem with how "pigeon-holed" your Mag Sorc build is, then maybe you should start by creating a new post and outlining the issues you have with the class. Compare it to other magicka builds and explain why Sorcs are one-dimensional when all other Magicka builds have more options. Maybe create a Twitch or Youtube channel and plead you case. Maybe the devs will understand where your coming from and make some changes. Seems like it worked for other people.

SwaminoNowlino

@MrTarkanian48 Drops the mic.

Bromburak

Waffennacht wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point which can't be argued. Is: Stamina has more options than magicka.

You a real funny guy, of course it can be argued because you are still ignoring the fact that you don't pick a class
to use abilities that are not been provided by the class it self.

The point is that a pure stat machine and reasonable passives are not enough to praise the stam changes since release and it will not improve lack of utility either. Now you expect players to build work arounds because of this sloppy class design? Sorry, but thats Wrobels job.

Stamina has always had more options, more fun, and better time than magicka since console release. End of Story.

Nope, because this is not about fun it's about builds that are questionable because they could be more flexible and perform much better in comparison to any other class when it comes to harmonizing class abilities.

FENGRUSH was spoiled complaining about his choices. Again, at least he had choices.

Anyone whom has played magicka for over a year will find a Far easier time being a stam character because the game incentives stamina.

A stam character implies that you have the choice of 4 classes and anyone who plays this game knows that all other classes harmonize much better with Stamina than a Sorc.

Sorry, but you cannot blame players for the unfinished class design.
For most players there is no reason to play or try a Stam Sorc for a reason.
There are still exceptions like Fengrush and others including my self trying to come up with work arounds and viable builds but it doesn't change the fact that Stam Sorcs are unfinished per design because it makes no sense to pick a class when you barely use it skills. End of story.

First, I find that "it's not about fun" sad.

Well the Stam criticism has nothing todo with our fun playing this game in general.

Stam sorc may be at the bottom of the hill in stam builds

Now we talking, you start being honest.

So your argument maybe, "no class stam abilities" that would matter if the build was in a bubble and didn't have access to weapon skills. It seems to me you guys finished the hardest content in game without em. And you ask "why pick stam sorc?"

Good question if you don't like the class.

It's not a question of like , it's a question of improving things that are not balanced.

Before I criticize a class I have compared several builds with both resources and then I come to a conclusion.
And technically it makes no sense to pick a class with lack of utility when other classes are able todo a better stam job.

R you upset other classes do better because you made a conscious decision to pick a "gimped" class? (But apparently not gimped enough to prevent you from doing anything...)

Silly, how can this be someones motivation?

A couple lines before you agreed that Stam sorc is at the bottom of the hill in stam builds.
And now you act like that everything works as expected and doesn't need change for improvment?

Is that the way how you solve problems? Congrats.

Waffennacht

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point which can't be argued. Is: Stamina has more options than magicka.

You a real funny guy, of course it can be argued because you are still ignoring the fact that you don't pick a class
to use abilities that are not been provided by the class it self.

The point is that a pure stat machine and reasonable passives are not enough to praise the stam changes since release and it will not improve lack of utility either. Now you expect players to build work arounds because of this sloppy class design? Sorry, but thats Wrobels job.

Stamina has always had more options, more fun, and better time than magicka since console release. End of Story.

Nope, because this is not about fun it's about builds that are questionable because they could be more flexible and perform much better in comparison to any other class when it comes to harmonizing class abilities.

FENGRUSH was spoiled complaining about his choices. Again, at least he had choices.

Anyone whom has played magicka for over a year will find a Far easier time being a stam character because the game incentives stamina.

A stam character implies that you have the choice of 4 classes and anyone who plays this game knows that all other classes harmonize much better with Stamina than a Sorc.

Sorry, but you cannot blame players for the unfinished class design.
For most players there is no reason to play or try a Stam Sorc for a reason.
There are still exceptions like Fengrush and others including my self trying to come up with work arounds and viable builds but it doesn't change the fact that Stam Sorcs are unfinished per design because it makes no sense to pick a class when you barely use it skills. End of story.

First, I find that "it's not about fun" sad.

Well the Stam criticism has nothing todo with our fun playing this game in general.

Stam sorc may be at the bottom of the hill in stam builds

Now we talking, you start being honest.

So your argument maybe, "no class stam abilities" that would matter if the build was in a bubble and didn't have access to weapon skills. It seems to me you guys finished the hardest content in game without em. And you ask "why pick stam sorc?"

Good question if you don't like the class.

It's not a question of like , it's a question of improving things that are not balanced.

Before I criticize a class I have compared several builds with both resources and then I come to a conclusion.
And technically it makes no sense to pick a class with lack of utility when other classes are able todo a better stam job.

R you upset other classes do better because you made a conscious decision to pick a "gimped" class? (But apparently not gimped enough to prevent you from doing anything...)

Silly, how can this be someones motivation?

A couple lines before you agreed that Stam sorc is at the bottom of the hill in stam builds.
And now you act like that everything works as expected and doesn't need change for improvment?

Is that the way how you solve problems? Congrats.

I'm saying stamina in general had more than magicka. So even the worst of the stam has more than the magic.

I'll stop commenting the moment people stop tagging me

Bromburak

Dracane wrote: »

Sweeps heal you with any hit, burning light does not interfere with these heals at all.

In a perfect world.

The self heal amount of sweep is being calculated as expected as long BL doesn't proc.
If Sweep and BL doesn't crit your self heal is lower than it should be.

Since this is off topic please trace and watch it your self.

Tyrannitar

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Hi guys, this thread is getting a bit heated. It's perfectly fine to debate or disagree, but it is important to keep this respectful. Please remember to keep your posts civil and constructive, as we discuss in greater depth here.

It's only getting heated because you guys haven't fired wrobel yet. J/S

Jar_Ek

Soooo back to the original topic...
Should Implosion have either a higher chance or better threshold? My view is that it is what it is and if zos messed with either they would probably feel obliged to mess with the overall damage. I do rather like @Dracane idea of increasing the threshold but having the damage based on a how much % health they have left - but again don't want a 10% threshold increase to greatly reduce the damage of the effect under 15% as this would be a significant reduction in the passives usefulness.

Dracane

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Soooo back to the original topic...
Should Implosion have either a higher chance or better threshold? My view is that it is what it is and if zos messed with either they would probably feel obliged to mess with the overall damage. I do rather like @Dracane idea of increasing the threshold but having the damage based on a how much % health they have left - but again don't want a 10% threshold increase to greatly reduce the damage of the effect under 15% as this would be a significant reduction in the passives usefulness.

Then again, implosion is one of few Sorcerer passives that at least has some use and impact There are more passives that need much more attention that Implosion.

Jar_Ek

Agreed

Erdmanski

With all of the broken active skills in this game, I'm glad we are focusing on a passive. Seriously?

Implosion is a passive execute, something that other classes don't have, so complaining about it seems foolish, and this is coming from someone who has played a sorc since release.

Aemon_Isklexi

Iterating on game mechanics isn't a zero sum process. Bringing attention to one iffy mechanic doesn't detract from giving feedback on other mechanics. Certainly abilities that are outright broken (in one way or another) will have priority on developer time, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't discuss other potential changes to the game. Forum discussions don't really cost anything because if our time was really worth something, we wouldn't be puttering around on a video game forum.

If you have issues with other skills in the game, you should start a discussion thread for them. Mindless criticism may be foolish, but reasoned debate and discussion are never a waste of time.

Tyrannitar

Aemon_Isklexi wrote: »

Iterating on game mechanics isn't a zero sum process. Bringing attention to one iffy mechanic doesn't detract from giving feedback on other mechanics. Certainly abilities that are outright broken (in one way or another) will have priority on developer time, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't discuss other potential changes to the game. Forum discussions don't really cost anything because if our time was really worth something, we wouldn't be puttering around on a video game forum.

If you have issues with other skills in the game, you should start a discussion thread for them. Mindless criticism may be foolish, but reasoned debate and discussion are never a waste of time.

I see you're new here....

Honestly, every end-game sorc (stam moreso) got REKT by wrobel's newest rendition of crit surge.

It's not mindless criticism, man. We've had 50 billion threads about the topic and they're all ignored...

As far as implosion goes: it's pretty awesome. I've had some crazy pvp shutdowns because of it proccing.

I'd understand a higher rate of triggering and a lower damage spike if it needed a nerf, but beyond that I can't see anything wrong with it.

There's not much to be said about *that* skill in particular tbh, and when sorcs are genuinely the most *** upon class in the game...

There's a lot to talk about. And people do.

The reasonable approach was the 90+ pages of stam sorc threads with detailed dps, hps parses and explanations as to why we were getting nerfed.

Wrobel literally nerfed crit surge because he didn't like the notion of "filling a full health bar off of two overloads"....

Stam sorcs explained "okay, but we don't do that" and it fell on deaf ears. His attitude towards stam sorcs is summarized in his "Q&A" on the sorc class. An FAQ as to why he thought we needed nerfing. Not a single question answered besides those in the OP, and not a single indication that he even acknowledges he screwed the class other than the thread's existence.

Tbh, a HoT skill benefits shield-stacking sorcs more than it does a stam sorc, as they can heal while defending now.

Our offense was our defense, but now our defense has become so nerfed we can't go on the offensive if there's more than two people!

dodgehopper_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just making this quick, yeah same moves different armors, CP, and potions

No it's not the same, you just don't know the difference between helpful external adjustments available for everyone and a basis provided by a class without depending on resource. It's been called freedom of choice and it's a fact that you rely on external skill lines as a stam sorc and less on class abilities.

You are blaming Fengrush for bashing the Stam Sorc since release for a questionable design.
But he has a point, while you don't. So the question remains why would you pick a class when you end up with less class abilities and rely on external skills like weapons so much.

Once again players want to pick a class without gimping themselves but the reality is that they rely on a resource and need to go from there. Now you claim as a Magicka Sorc that Stam sorcs are having a lot more choices. Hilarious.

I picked sorcerer about 1.3 years ago. At that time I only played magicka sorc. You may ask why did I stay with it? Because I didn't want to grind the mountain that was Alliance skills or the veteran ranks without enlightened.

Aka, only recently has there been options to make an alt for someone whom only has as much time as I do to play.

My point which can't be argued. Is: Stamina has more options than magicka. Any player complaining about lack of options that is stamina has no room to talk. Period. I don't give a flying @$!# that FENGRUSH didn't beat vMA easily enough because flurry just wasn't up to standards.

Stamina has always had more options, more fun, and better time than magicka since console release. End of Story. FENGRUSH was spoiled complaining about his choices. Again, at least he had choices.

Anyone whom has played magicka for over a year will find a Far easier time being a stam character because the game incentives stamina. Period. GG, please play again.

@Waffennacht : The two bolded statements you made clash a lot. If you played this game when it released, you would be very hard pressed to make the claims you are making about stamina. People were mocked for being stamina builds. The strongest builds were generally speaking magicka-focused with ridiculous vampires and ultimate generation. That's it. The game has gone through its fair share of changes. I haven't watched any streams regularly so I'm not going to speak to what streamers are saying, but I think you're laying it on a little thick on @Fengrush here, particularly when you come from a perspective that is clearly wrong (been playing since Beta here).

Aemon_Isklexi

@Tyrannitar I think you may have misinterpreted by post. I was directing my comment at Erdmanski's post right above mine. My comment on "mindless criticism" wasn't directed at an actual topic of discussion (aside from comments saying "this game sucks" without any other statements or elaboration). My point was that a discussion about Implosion doesn't preclude public discussion about any other aspect or mechanic in the game.

SwaminoNowlino

@Aemon_Isklexi Which is a really good point. Lobbying for stam sorc improvements does not mean people cannot also lobby for magicka sorc improvements. It does little good to compare and tear other classes down in order to make the argument for the class you play.

If you love playing a magicka sorc, and want to see it improved, then that is great. Lobby for the changes you think are beneficial based on your experience. But don't go into a stam sorc thread and complain about the improvements they desire. It doesn't have to be either/or. If Fengrush or anyone else wants to lobby for stam sorc improvements then good for them, they know the class and know what they would like to see. It doesn't have to be "Well magicka sorcs took it hard so stam sorcs have no right to complain."

film

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Thelon is really the best magicka sorc I know of. I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

He solos vet dungeons, I haven't seen any other players post soloing 5 different vet dungeons.

His build is exactly the same as Yolo's build, except pets instead of buff toggles.

@Thelon, do you feel magicka sorc or stam sorc has more viable armor and moves?

Who on EARTH feels magicka sorc has more viable armor and moves than stam sorc?

Im waiting

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

Now go ahead and tag a Stam Sorc that's solo'd 5 different vet dungeons...Should be easy with all their options

What kind of logic is that? Who cares? This game isn't even made to solo dungeons (Not saying you cannot do it). You say that's the test of skill but I say that's the test of ego -- and you calling out @FENGRUSH only perpetuates that idea. Besides people are going to make arguments based on how they play the game. @FENGRUSH does small group play as a Stam Sorc so his decisions, his knowledge, his skill set will be based on that and we WANT to hear that point of view. @Waffennacht your skill set I guess is solo play as a Magicka Sorc so etc etc etc and we WANT to hear that point of view.

But I am here on earth and I think that magicka sorc has more viable moves than stam sorc when looking at the Sorc skill line.

Daedric skill line I would say Magicka sorc owns that skill line. I see you mention every pet build player in the game so I know, you know, that this skill line is for Magicka Sorc users. The only Ult for Stam users (when playing solo) is probably Atro and the only way for Stam users to make the passives beneficial.

Dark Magic skill line Stam Sorc gets one skill line morph here (but really Magicka gets a magicka morph here on the only stam in the skill line). The passives in this skill line are better for Stam Sorc but you can't deny that Magicka Sorc gets the better end of the deal.

Storm Calling skill line is another Magicka Sorc powerhouse but again Stam does gain some good utility from this skill line. But the majority of the skills will never be used by a Stam Sorc. Passives here are pretty even but that Capacitor passive seems to be more beneficial to one side.

I think the Sorc Skill line is wholly in Magicka Sorcs favor.

As far as looking at gear, well, Magicka could use a 1 piece recovery à la Blood Spawn but what else are they missing that Stamina has to make them so much better? I guess, I could come up with some arguments in your favor for this. But I don't find them better than Magicka gear sets and 100% not enough to call people out that think differently.

I spent too much time writing this nevermind.

Waffennacht

film wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Thelon is really the best magicka sorc I know of. I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

He solos vet dungeons, I haven't seen any other players post soloing 5 different vet dungeons.

His build is exactly the same as Yolo's build, except pets instead of buff toggles.

@Thelon, do you feel magicka sorc or stam sorc has more viable armor and moves?

Who on EARTH feels magicka sorc has more viable armor and moves than stam sorc?

Im waiting

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

Now go ahead and tag a Stam Sorc that's solo'd 5 different vet dungeons...Should be easy with all their options

What kind of logic is that? Who cares? This game isn't even made to solo dungeons (Not saying you cannot do it). You say that's the test of skill but I say that's the test of ego -- and you calling out @FENGRUSH only perpetuates that idea. Besides people are going to make arguments based on how they play the game. @FENGRUSH does small group play as a Stam Sorc so his decisions, his knowledge, his skill set will be based on that and we WANT to hear that point of view. @Waffennacht your skill set I guess is solo play as a Magicka Sorc so etc etc etc and we WANT to hear that point of view.

But I am here on earth and I think that magicka sorc has more viable moves than stam sorc when looking at the Sorc skill line.

Daedric skill line I would say Magicka sorc owns that skill line. I see you mention every pet build player in the game so I know, you know, that this skill line is for Magicka Sorc users. The only Ult for Stam users (when playing solo) is probably Atro and the only way for Stam users to make the passives beneficial.

Dark Magic skill line Stam Sorc gets one skill line morph here (but really Magicka gets a magicka morph here on the only stam in the skill line). The passives in this skill line are better for Stam Sorc but you can't deny that Magicka Sorc gets the better end of the deal.

Storm Calling skill line is another Magicka Sorc powerhouse but again Stam does gain some good utility from this skill line. But the majority of the skills will never be used by a Stam Sorc. Passives here are pretty even but that Capacitor passive seems to be more beneficial to one side.

I think the Sorc Skill line is wholly in Magicka Sorcs favor.

As far as looking at gear, well, Magicka could use a 1 piece recovery à la Blood Spawn but what else are they missing that Stamina has to make them so much better? I guess, I could come up with some arguments in your favor for this. But I don't find them better than Magicka gear sets and 100% not enough to call people out that think differently.

I spent too much time writing this nevermind.

I gave you an awesome, it's because of how you laid out what you said.

Xvorg

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Stamina Templar : Jabs, Javelin, Power of the Light. Class abilities that provide utility and damage based on Stamina.
Stamina Dragon Knight: Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw, Dragon Leap (and I think a few others). Class abilities that provide utility and damage based on stamina.
Stamina Nightblade: Just about every class ability has a choice between magicka and stamina. Class passives synergize very well with both types of build.
Stamina Sorcerer: Not a thing until DB when they got Hurricane.

How is this even still a discussion?

What?

Assasination line has 3, Killer's blade, incap and Ambush. I don't consider relentless focus proc
Shadow line has 1, Surprise attack
Siph just 1, Power extractions (nearly useless)

Regarding the class passives, have you taken a look to the siph line passives? Tell me, which one synergizes with stam? Tell me, how executioner (assasin line) synergizes with stam