On Sorcs and Implosion

Waffennacht · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.

I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

You complain about crap trees, well at least you have them! Destruction staff is a CRAP tree, it has what two semi viable attacks (in PvE) and... and... yes that's it.

You mention TWO good trees, I can't even list one.

Sure go ahead and post one positive thing, I'm still not seeing anything.

I'm not talking pure viability, yes plenty of magicka sorcs (pro) THAT ALL RUN THE SAME BUILDS.

Thelon's pet build is Yolo with Pets instead of buff toggles, Yolo is the same at NoS' except two moves. My Shepherd is the same as NoS again switch toggles and one armor set.

It's all, and always been, the same two builds. Stam sorcs have WAY MORE variety, even prior. HELLO execute that works? Hello DW or 2H or bow or SnB?

Again did you ever play a magicka sorc?

Edit: Not to mention your access to WB, and thanks to the bug, it ment you could infinitely bobble an opponent to death, no magicka abilities ever had that

And this isn't even touching the subject of armor sets, you know the most used magicka armor? Yeah it's a stam set that's been out from the beginning. Woot... stam gets many many jewelry inclusive sets, many sets that actually give you variety and maintains viability. Weapons that have different effects and allows for whole new path choices. Briarheart, is an example, useable by many stam builds, while the magicka version, Trinimac is only semi viable in an oddly arcane build.

Aemon_Isklexi · June 2016

The value of implosion depends on how you look at it.

If you look at it as an execute ability, it's pretty lacking. It's unreliable and doesn't come into play until well after other (more reliable) execute options are up and running.

If you look at it as just a passive bonus, it's passable. Every now and then, it will cut a fight short by a second or two and has a neat animation. It doesn't really add much value though for the same reasons it's not a good execute ability (unreliable and narrow window of opportunity). If you have plenty of extra skill points lying around, there's no reason not to pick it up.

Jar_Ek · June 2016

Look if you want to proc implosion then stack physical DoTs for a stamina sorcerer and this is also true for surge heals. Enough DoTs with flurry begins to add up and the chance of it proccing is better (ie. X * 6%, where X is the number of hits). On the other hand trying to proc it with wrecking blow... yeah it ain't gonna proc much.

iam117 · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.

I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

You comain about crap trees, well at least you have them! Destruction staff is a CRAP tree, it has what two semi viable attacks (in PvE) and... and... yes that's it.

You mention TWO good trees, I can't even list one.

Sure go ahead and post one positive thing, I'm still not seeing anything.

I'm not talking pure viability, yes plenty of magicka sorcs (pro) THAT ALL RUN THE SAME BUILS.

Thelon's pet build is Yolo with Pets instead of buff toggles, Yolo is the same at NoS' except two moves. My Shepherd is the same as NoS again switch toggles and one armor set.

It's all, and always been, the same two builds. Stam sorcs have WAY MORE variety, even prior. HELLO execute that works? Hello DW or 2H or bow or SnB?

Again did you ever play a magicka sorc?

magicka sorc and stam sorc in pve are both in the same situation, as with any class end game, they all run almost identical bars, magicka or stamina, the top builds for every class run the same build. 2h/s&b are not dps options for pve, they are build options for pvp yes, but for pvp dw/s&b/destro/resto are build options for magicka sorc as well, where stam has dw/2h/s&b/bow. destro is certainly not a crap tree for pve or pvp. Every skill has a viable morph and every passive is usefull. and in pve for single target only 2 dw skills are usefull, just like destro, and in aoe dw has 1 skill and destro has 2 (although there are better options in class skills etc) as for execute, your using a combination of skills in order to get execute values, your not using 1 skill and spamming it to get there, so not really valid, because you still have to continue to do your entire rotation to be viable during execute. for pvp idk that there are many players more justified to comment of stam sorc than @FENGRUSH, regardless of yours or anyone elses personal feelings on him, he and only a few others stuck with stam sorc and made it work.

covenant_merchant · June 2016

Again, I'm not talking about the proc chance, but about the threshold. At 15%, the target can be offed with one reverse slice - light attack combo. It's just way too low to make that passive interesting.
And that whole QQ spurs from the fact that implosion is supposed to be "one of the better" sorc passives out there.. Other classes have ultimate gain after drinking potions, major mending, increased damage against blocking targets, and that's without mentioning burning light, which gives templars so much additional damage. We have what? Pets and heals for 664 after activating a dark magic ability.

Yes stamsorc has been thrown a bone this patch, but did every other stamina class. Of course, skill, lag and other variables come into play in pvp, but overall, compared to stamina templars with easily available purge, major mending, and burning light scaling of physical damage, stamina nightblades with 50cost ulti doing up to 17k damage and fear - best cc in game, and stamina dks with poisons, major mending, reflective scales, and op resource management, stamina sorcerers have still a long way to go.

Waffennacht · June 2016

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.

I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

You comain about crap trees, well at least you have them! Destruction staff is a CRAP tree, it has what two semi viable attacks (in PvE) and... and... yes that's it.

You mention TWO good trees, I can't even list one.

Sure go ahead and post one positive thing, I'm still not seeing anything.

I'm not talking pure viability, yes plenty of magicka sorcs (pro) THAT ALL RUN THE SAME BUILS.

Thelon's pet build is Yolo with Pets instead of buff toggles, Yolo is the same at NoS' except two moves. My Shepherd is the same as NoS again switch toggles and one armor set.

It's all, and always been, the same two builds. Stam sorcs have WAY MORE variety, even prior. HELLO execute that works? Hello DW or 2H or bow or SnB?

Again did you ever play a magicka sorc?

magicka sorc and stam sorc in pve are both in the same situation, as with any class end game, they all run almost identical bars, magicka or stamina, the top builds for every class run the same build. 2h/s&b are not dps options for pve, they are build options for pvp yes, but for pvp dw/s&b/destro/resto are build options for magicka sorc as well, where stam has dw/2h/s&b/bow. destro is certainly not a crap tree for pve or pvp. Every skill has a viable morph and every passive is usefull. and in pve for single target only 2 dw skills are usefull, just like destro, and in aoe dw has 1 skill and destro has 2 (although there are better options in class skills etc) as for execute, your using a combination of skills in order to get execute values, your not using 1 skill and spamming it to get there, so not really valid, because you still have to continue to do your entire rotation to be viable during execute. for pvp idk that there are many players more justified to comment of stam sorc than @FENGRUSH, regardless of yours or anyone elses personal feelings on him, he and only a few others stuck with stam sorc and made it work.

Haven't you read DW sorcs are dead... SnB sorcs are definitely dead... destro huh? Ok, sure it's good, (not imo as what WoE is only PvE, and then crushing shock etc? The moves that make happy to see in PvP cuz it means they are super weak) but ok.

I have a problem with Fengy as all I ever saw was complaining and complaining, and then I guess a break. And this while stam has had so much more available to them.

Magicka sorc has always been pigeonholed compared to any stam build, including stam sorc. My point is, with all this complaining, did he ever try a class and build that actually has it bad?

iam117 · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Haven't you read DW sorcs are dead... SnB sorcs are definitely dead... destro huh? Ok, sure it's good, (not imo as what WoE is only PvE, and then crushing shock etc? The moves that make happy to see in PvP cuz it means they are super weak) but ok.

I have a problem with Fengy as all I ever saw was complaining and complaining, and then I guess a break. And this while stam has had so much more available to them.

Magicka sorc has always been pigeonholed compared to any stam build, including stam sorc. My point is, with all this complaining, did he ever try a class and build that actually has it bad?

dw sorc is far from dead. plenty of people making it work, just as well as before. my pvp magicka sorc build works exactly the same, and its dw. snb sorc also not dead, and for destro? is there a better way for ANY magicka class to keep pressure on people than by using destro?

FENGRUSH · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.

I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

You comain about crap trees, well at least you have them! Destruction staff is a CRAP tree, it has what two semi viable attacks (in PvE) and... and... yes that's it.

You mention TWO good trees, I can't even list one.

Sure go ahead and post one positive thing, I'm still not seeing anything.

I'm not talking pure viability, yes plenty of magicka sorcs (pro) THAT ALL RUN THE SAME BUILS.

Thelon's pet build is Yolo with Pets instead of buff toggles, Yolo is the same at NoS' except two moves. My Shepherd is the same as NoS again switch toggles and one armor set.

It's all, and always been, the same two builds. Stam sorcs have WAY MORE variety, even prior. HELLO execute that works? Hello DW or 2H or bow or SnB?

Again did you ever play a magicka sorc?

magicka sorc and stam sorc in pve are both in the same situation, as with any class end game, they all run almost identical bars, magicka or stamina, the top builds for every class run the same build. 2h/s&b are not dps options for pve, they are build options for pvp yes, but for pvp dw/s&b/destro/resto are build options for magicka sorc as well, where stam has dw/2h/s&b/bow. destro is certainly not a crap tree for pve or pvp. Every skill has a viable morph and every passive is usefull. and in pve for single target only 2 dw skills are usefull, just like destro, and in aoe dw has 1 skill and destro has 2 (although there are better options in class skills etc) as for execute, your using a combination of skills in order to get execute values, your not using 1 skill and spamming it to get there, so not really valid, because you still have to continue to do your entire rotation to be viable during execute. for pvp idk that there are many players more justified to comment of stam sorc than @FENGRUSH, regardless of yours or anyone elses personal feelings on him, he and only a few others stuck with stam sorc and made it work.

Haven't you read DW sorcs are dead... SnB sorcs are definitely dead... destro huh? Ok, sure it's good, (not imo as what WoE is only PvE, and then crushing shock etc? The moves that make happy to see in PvP cuz it means they are super weak) but ok.

I have a problem with Fengy as all I ever saw was complaining and complaining, and then I guess a break. And this while stam has had so much more available to them.

Magicka sorc has always been pigeonholed compared to any stam build, including stam sorc. My point is, with all this complaining, did he ever try a class and build that actually has it bad?

Lol - this guy is a joke. Ive likely played more magicka sorc than you have in this game.

A class that actually has ever had it bad. From a magicka sorc player to a stam sorc player... this is completely laughable.

Please tag any magicka sorc player you think is good in the game to weigh in on the subject @Waffennacht - they wont side with you. But you seem to be on an island in your thought process, so you wont be tagging any well known magicka sorc players.

Waffennacht · June 2016

@Thelon is really the best magicka sorc I know of. I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

He solos vet dungeons, I haven't seen any other players post soloing 5 different vet dungeons.

His build is exactly the same as Yolo's build, except pets instead of buff toggles.

@Thelon, do you feel magicka sorc or stam sorc has more viable armor and moves?

Who on EARTH feels magicka sorc has more viable armor and moves than stam sorc?

Im waiting

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

Aemon_Isklexi · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Relying on others is inherently weak? That's an odd distinction to make. Soloing 4-man content as a test of skill and character building is something I expect from a subsection of the gaming community, but disregarding all group based activity seems like a very extreme interpretation.

It's especially strange as working in a coordinated group allows characters to perform at a higher level. For example, a dragonknight providing major brutality & sorcery to the entire group frees up action bar slots and potions on everyone else. It allows for greater diversity, utility, and power. In some ways, coordinating a group of people can be more challenging than trying to do the content solo.

iam117 · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

ahhhh got it now, your right, group content worthless in determining weather someone is good or not......../facepalm

Waffennacht · June 2016

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

ahhhh got it now, your right, group content worthless in determining weather someone is good or not......../facepalm

Exactly, it's great for determining a group's abilities. But the only way to know if THE PLAYER is good, is if they are left to their own devices.

Example: i could join 3 other players and beat all content, but my build wouldn't have to be nearly as perfect as my solo vet dungeons build.

Edit: sorry it bugs me but "whether" and "you're"

Xvorg · June 2016

kasa-obake wrote: »

Again, I'm not talking about the proc chance, but about the threshold. At 15%, the target can be offed with one reverse slice - light attack combo. It's just way too low to make that passive interesting.
And that whole QQ spurs from the fact that implosion is supposed to be "one of the better" sorc passives out there.. Other classes have ultimate gain after drinking potions, major mending, increased damage against blocking targets, and that's without mentioning burning light, which gives templars so much additional damage. We have what? Pets and heals for 664 after activating a dark magic ability.

Yes stamsorc has been thrown a bone this patch, but did every other stamina class. Of course, skill, lag and other variables come into play in pvp, but overall, compared to stamina templars with easily available purge, major mending, and burning light scaling of physical damage, stamina nightblades with 50cost ulti doing up to 17k damage and fear - best cc in game, and stamina dks with poisons, major mending, reflective scales, and op resource management, stamina sorcerers have still a long way to go.

Stam NB has at least 5 passives that are crap for them, let me show you:

1- http://prntscr.com/bj8pj7: Magicka return for killing with your class stam execute... nice
2- http://prntscr.com/bj8qft: That's good for tanks... but for dps NBs is like 500 HPs
3- http://prntscr.com/bj8rdz: magicka again
4- http://prntscr.com/bj8rpp: The only siphon skill a stamblade is ever going to slot is siph attacks. And a 3% extra regen in rally or vigos is just meh
5- http://prntscr.com/bj8sf3: As mentioned above, the only skill a stamblade could use is siph strikes (though the 10% extra regen from relenless focus isn't a bad option), so, that skill gives the NB 2 ulti each 15 secs, since it is how much siph strikes effect last... so no fast ulti gaining throgh that skill tree.

According to what I know, no stamblade has ever complained about that... and you complain for a passive that does dmg when the enemy is on 15% max health?

iam117 · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

ahhhh got it now, your right, group content worthless in determining weather someone is good or not......../facepalm

Exactly, it's great for determining a group's abilities. But the only way to know if THE PLAYER is good, is if they are left to their own devices.

Example: i could join 3 other players and beat all content, but my build wouldn't have to be nearly as perfect as my solo vet dungeons build.

Edit: sorry it bugs me but "whether" and "you're"

oh wow, i did not realize your were being serious. you are arent you. i cant decide weather thats crazy or not

edit: threw in some more issues for you there
edit/edit: here is an article just for you: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/17/stop-shaming-people-on-the-internet-for-grammar-mistakes-its-not-there-fault/

Aemon_Isklexi · June 2016

Xvorg wrote: »

Stam NB has at least 5 passives that are crap for them, let me show you:

1- http://prntscr.com/bj8pj7: Magicka return for killing with your class stam execute... nice
2- http://prntscr.com/bj8qft: That's good for tanks... but for dps NBs is like 500 HPs
3- http://prntscr.com/bj8rdz: magicka again
4- http://prntscr.com/bj8rpp: The only siphon skill a stamblade is ever going to slot is siph attacks. And a 3% extra regen in rally or vigos is just meh
5- http://prntscr.com/bj8sf3: As mentioned above, the only skill a stamblade could use is siph strikes (though the 10% extra regen from relenless focus isn't a bad option), so, that skill gives the NB 2 ulti each 15 secs, since it is how much siph strikes effect last... so no fast ulti gaining throgh that skill tree.

According to what I know, no stamblade has ever complained about that... and you complain for a passive that does dmg when the enemy is on 15% max health?

Frankly, I think it's strange that class passives don't benefit magicka and stamina equally (e.g., how they changed implosion to work with both lightning and physical attacks). Hybrid builds aren't really viable, so I don't think changing passives like Magicka Flood to boost both magicka and stamina would be that big of a deal. Although if they do make that change, hybrid builds may become viable with that pelinal's crafted set in DB.

Waffennacht · June 2016

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

ahhhh got it now, your right, group content worthless in determining weather someone is good or not......../facepalm

Exactly, it's great for determining a group's abilities. But the only way to know if THE PLAYER is good, is if they are left to their own devices.

Example: i could join 3 other players and beat all content, but my build wouldn't have to be nearly as perfect as my solo vet dungeons build.

Edit: sorry it bugs me but "whether" and "you're"

oh wow, i did not realize your were being serious. you are arent you. i cant decide weather thats crazy or not

edit: threw in some more issues for you there

Lol, yeah I find anything other than self reliance weak and to be dismissed. In this world, yes self reliance is now considered crazy.

Honestly again, a dps that needs a healer for a buff or resources isn't good or bad, they are a piece of a machine. To try and evaluate a cog in a machine without the rest of it is just not proper science.

Maybe if you took one player from said group and had them join a PUG and then have empirical evidence to show that the addition of said player improved the over all cohesiveness of said group THEN maybe you can prove that said player is good or not.

But that's a lot of work when you could just solo

Aemon_Isklexi · June 2016

What's strange is your insistence that soloing group content is the only real measure of a person's skill in ESO. You're justifying it by comparing the performance in two entirely different realms of playstyle. There are certainly more variables to account for when judging an individual's skill in a group setting, but that doesn't make it impossible nor does it inherently make the skill of the group player less than that of the solo player.

You also refer to group players rather derogatorily as cogs in a machine. I find your disdain towards group players odd because without them, the content you seem to prefer would not exist (i.e., there would be no 4-man dungeons to solo).

hedna123b14_ESO · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

ahhhh got it now, your right, group content worthless in determining weather someone is good or not......../facepalm

Exactly, it's great for determining a group's abilities. But the only way to know if THE PLAYER is good, is if they are left to their own devices.

Example: i could join 3 other players and beat all content, but my build wouldn't have to be nearly as perfect as my solo vet dungeons build.

Edit: sorry it bugs me but "whether" and "you're"

oh wow, i did not realize your were being serious. you are arent you. i cant decide weather thats crazy or not

edit: threw in some more issues for you there

Lol, yeah I find anything other than self reliance weak and to be dismissed. In this world, yes self reliance is now considered crazy.

Honestly again, a dps that needs a healer for a buff or resources isn't good or bad, they are a piece of a machine. To try and evaluate a cog in a machine without the rest of it is just not proper science.

Maybe if you took one player from said group and had them join a PUG and then have empirical evidence to show that the addition of said player improved the over all cohesiveness of said group THEN maybe you can prove that said player is good or not.

But that's a lot of work when you could just solo

PvE with the exception of that terrible place called vMA is all group content, it is how it was intended to be played in an MMO. And it's always the same - it's a chain made up of links. A player is always stronger in a strong group and his individual potential is also higher with a good group. Measuring your potential with self reliance does not allow you to min max and thus puts you into an inferior position. Also magicka sorcs are fine, pulling amazing numbers if you do it right.

Waffennacht · June 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

ahhhh got it now, your right, group content worthless in determining weather someone is good or not......../facepalm

Exactly, it's great for determining a group's abilities. But the only way to know if THE PLAYER is good, is if they are left to their own devices.

Example: i could join 3 other players and beat all content, but my build wouldn't have to be nearly as perfect as my solo vet dungeons build.

Edit: sorry it bugs me but "whether" and "you're"

oh wow, i did not realize your were being serious. you are arent you. i cant decide weather thats crazy or not

edit: threw in some more issues for you there

Lol, yeah I find anything other than self reliance weak and to be dismissed. In this world, yes self reliance is now considered crazy.

Honestly again, a dps that needs a healer for a buff or resources isn't good or bad, they are a piece of a machine. To try and evaluate a cog in a machine without the rest of it is just not proper science.

Maybe if you took one player from said group and had them join a PUG and then have empirical evidence to show that the addition of said player improved the over all cohesiveness of said group THEN maybe you can prove that said player is good or not.

But that's a lot of work when you could just solo

PvE with the exception of that terrible place called vMA is all group content, it is how it was intended to be played in an MMO. And it's always the same - it's a chain made up of links. A player is always stronger in a strong group and his individual potential is also higher with a good group. Measuring your potential with self reliance does not allow you to min max and thus puts you into an inferior position. Also magicka sorcs are fine, pulling amazing numbers if you do it right.

This is just to lol, "mmo?" Didn't they say it's a multiplayer RPG and not an MMO?

Second, only a hand full of dungeons are not soloable. If i remember correctly ZoS said that specifically stronger players would be able to solo them (meaning they had it in mind during creation)

And fyi, I never said Sorc wasn't viable, just pigeonholed into the same build over and over again

iam117 · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

This is just to lol, "mmo?" Didn't they say it's a multiplayer RPG and not an MMO?

Second, only a hand full of dungeons are not soloable. If i remember correctly ZoS said that specifically stronger players would be able to solo them (meaning they had it in mind during creation)

And fyi, I never said Sorc wasn't viable, just pigeonholed into the same build over and over again

game is classified as "The Elder Scrolls Online is a massively multiplayer online role-playing video game developed by ZeniMax Online Studios."

it does not matter if they are solo-able or not, they were designed around group play, just because you can solo them, does not mean that they were designed to do so, many people can solo them, but its always much faster in a group, and leaves a lot of room for maximizing what you are trying to do.

again every class/spec is bassically pigeonholed into the same build at end game if you want to min max.

leepalmer95 · June 2016

I genuinely can't wait until this gets fixed on console, 100% proc rate..

Honestly this, hurricane, injection and the dawnbreaker dot are stupid together.

I'd be db at around 80/70% hp, when on the floor the db will tick for 2.5k-3.5k, injection will then tick for around 4k then implosion will kill me 100% of the time.

I'm basically 100% dead if i'm at 70/60% hp when someone has a db.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

OP, I'm sorry but stam sorc tears have been wiped away this patch. They are really awesome now. Even the infamous @Fengrush has slowed his public moaning...

In my opinion, Stormcalling has become the best offensive PvP class tree for a stamina character, with Aedric Spear in close second (Assassination/Shadow are often more lethal but Nightblades are all cheese).

Of course we can all rally around the banner of needing more skill and build options. There are lots of ways to solve that problem, but I hope ZOS soon comes around to the realization that rigid class systems are lame and outdated (not to mention a balancing nightmare) and they start to offer further character progression through eventual access to other class trees while also adding new trees to the game.

Public moaning?!

Oh man - you guys clearly havent walked a mile in stam sorcs shoes from 1.7 up to end of thieves guild..

I'm actually really liking Stamina Sorcerer as well now, but I understood why you were upset with things in the last couple of patches @FENGRUSH . They've also resolved a few of the balance concerns that I've posted about which made me really happy, and gives me a positive outlook on them improving the Sorcerer class in a balanced way. I personally think the class still needs a few more iterations to get right, assuming they do not yet again make major underlying changes to game systems. As it stands though I'm very happy with Stamina Sorcerer, and I mostly feel apathetic toward magic sorcerer because it is just not an interesting playstyle to me. I still argue that the magic sorcerer would be loads more fun if they did away with the requirement for pets to be toggled on both bars. In fact the whole toggle-class design idea should go in the trash in my view. Toggles are generally not a good idea in a game where so few abilities can be used. It might be a little more acceptable if we had mouse/controller combinations like DCUO has, but we don't. I've argued this for some time. If they remove toggles I think they might also want to CONSIDER getting rid of the 3rd Overload bar, but that really depends on the balance so I hesitate to say its a necessity (but it could be potentially very overpowering). The reason I'm not particularly fond of Toggles is that it takes away from a lot of the strategy/skill of the player and turns the game into a 2 button click game, very boring. The removal of the toggle concept will sprout more creativity and FUNCTIONAL unique builds, and that I think will be a good thing.

MrTarkanian48 · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.

I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

You comain about crap trees, well at least you have them! Destruction staff is a CRAP tree, it has what two semi viable attacks (in PvE) and... and... yes that's it.

You mention TWO good trees, I can't even list one.

Sure go ahead and post one positive thing, I'm still not seeing anything.

I'm not talking pure viability, yes plenty of magicka sorcs (pro) THAT ALL RUN THE SAME BUILS.

Thelon's pet build is Yolo with Pets instead of buff toggles, Yolo is the same at NoS' except two moves. My Shepherd is the same as NoS again switch toggles and one armor set.

It's all, and always been, the same two builds. Stam sorcs have WAY MORE variety, even prior. HELLO execute that works? Hello DW or 2H or bow or SnB?

Again did you ever play a magicka sorc?

magicka sorc and stam sorc in pve are both in the same situation, as with any class end game, they all run almost identical bars, magicka or stamina, the top builds for every class run the same build. 2h/s&b are not dps options for pve, they are build options for pvp yes, but for pvp dw/s&b/destro/resto are build options for magicka sorc as well, where stam has dw/2h/s&b/bow. destro is certainly not a crap tree for pve or pvp. Every skill has a viable morph and every passive is usefull. and in pve for single target only 2 dw skills are usefull, just like destro, and in aoe dw has 1 skill and destro has 2 (although there are better options in class skills etc) as for execute, your using a combination of skills in order to get execute values, your not using 1 skill and spamming it to get there, so not really valid, because you still have to continue to do your entire rotation to be viable during execute. for pvp idk that there are many players more justified to comment of stam sorc than @FENGRUSH, regardless of yours or anyone elses personal feelings on him, he and only a few others stuck with stam sorc and made it work.

Haven't you read DW sorcs are dead... SnB sorcs are definitely dead... destro huh? Ok, sure it's good, (not imo as what WoE is only PvE, and then crushing shock etc? The moves that make happy to see in PvP cuz it means they are super weak) but ok.

I have a problem with Fengy as all I ever saw was complaining and complaining, and then I guess a break. And this while stam has had so much more available to them.

Magicka sorc has always been pigeonholed compared to any stam build, including stam sorc. My point is, with all this complaining, did he ever try a class and build that actually has it bad?

@Waffennacht Stamina Sorcerer prior to this patch was most likely the weakest class, and definitely the weakest stam class. You can argue that it has access to good armor, and more weapon skill lines than magic, but so does every other stam class. However, other stam classes also had access to class abilities that complimented their builds.

Stam Sorc had nothing. No stam ultimate. No stam damage abilities. The only sorc abilities used were crit surge, bound armaments, boundless storm, and streak.

Crit surge was decent in PVE, but pretty weak in PVP. Didnt proc off dots. Got cut in half twice due to battle spirit. even less effective by shields and crit resist. On the other hand Mag sorcs could slot a resto for heals and healing ward, and stack healing ward on top of Hardened Ward.

Bound Armaments: Another great PVE ability, however, since it needs to be double barred, it was difficult to find room for. If you can't find room, you lose 8% stam and 20% recovery. If you found room, your down to 8 ability slots.

Boundless Storm: Nice speed boost and Major Resist buff. Other than that the damage was weak. Good utility, but not a gamechanger.

Streak: A fun ability, but not that practical. Can't use it to escape, only effective at stunning opponents. Only can cast it once or twice.

Stam Sorcs did not have a single useful class ultimate. They pretty much had to be Werewolf builds or just slot Flawless for the passive damage bonus. Again, these options were available to all classes. Any other Ultimate chosen would be weaker than if a Mag Sorc used it.

Stam sorcs also had to invest in Health and Impen gear.

Meanwhile Magic Sorcs could invest in full damage/low health builds while being able to rely on shields for defense. They could use Meteor, Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Atronach, Overload, Soul Assault ultimates at full damage scaling with CP.

They could use Frags, Curse, Proxy/Inev Det, Daedric Mines, Mages Fury, Liquid Lightning, to compliment the few viable Destro abilities. They had enough damage abilities to not even slot a destro and run DW. Decent Mag sorcs were literally unkillable in PVP in 1v1 due to shields. Mag Sorcs posted the highest achieved scores in vMA.

If you are arguing that before this patch, Stam Sorcs were more viable than Magic Sorcs, I think that 99% of people would disagree. Name one thing that made them better in PVP than any other Stam class.

Your leveling a Stam Sorc now and stated the following:

"1. DW passives that act like an execute (Rapid Strikes buffed in DB)
2. Bow semi executes (Poison Injection buffed in DB)
3. 2H execute (Reverse Slice Buffed in DB)
4. Implosion semi execute (Didn't exist for stamina prior to DB/Buffed in DB)

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks (Switched to Physical/buffed in DB). Hurricane does great damage (Didn't exist before DB). Blood craze (Didnt exist before DB/other morph didn't proc surge before DB) and rendering slashes are heals and good damage (Didnt proc surge before DB)."

All these things were less effective or didn't exist before this patch.

Now if you are just upset about the recent patch's effect on Magic Sorc, I can understand your frustration. Or if your mad that Stamina in general got some ults and buffs to make them more viable than I guess thats just the way it goes. If that is the case than just say it. No need to call people out. And no need to make claims that Stam Sorc has been OP all along. Stam Sorc has been at a disadvantage to all other stam classes, and all magic classes (Except maybe Mag DK), up until Dark Brotherhood.

Just seems a little childish to call someone out for complaining in the past about a class that was obviously underpowered. Especially when that person has faithfully played that underpowered build forever, and not jumped to the FOTM builds of each patch. Now that it got a buff after years of being weak, and you're leveling a Stam Sorc, you come on and say "Stam Sorc OP".

Waffennacht · June 2016

See that's a very common misconception.

My argument wasn't and has never been one about whether or not magicka sorc or stam sorc is better or worse. I'm simply saying that stamina (and yes all stamina, including sorc) have had far more choices when it came to viable builds options.

For example, in PvE esp, all magicka Sorc Has to run destro staff, and then Has to run the same abilities.

In PvP you Have to run the same abilities.

Look this update changed surge (but in PvP how often did this thing really help heal?) and the duration of shield (again annoying but manageable, the real rub comes in with trapping webs.

The class has so little in terms of options, that a low damage high cost ability that was intentionally designed to be weak, was a staple in magicka sorc builds. The removal of which crippled what insanely little variety already existed.

The sheer fact that bow, dw, and 2h are semi useful to any stam build means any stam build has more variety than magicka sorc ever did. That's my only point.

In terms of other stam vs stam sure sorc was lack luster, but whatever you had more than we did.

As a sorc, overload is useful for the bar, most sorcs don't even use the ult to attack but as a buff bar. In essence we sacrifice an ult slot to almost have the same number of non toggle abilities (and if we're going back to even worse pets, shredder, bugged curse... bugged overload)

No I did not once say stam sorc OP.

I will say the amount of complaints made on this forum from @FENGRUSH was absurd, while when they do buff em, where's the thank you on these forums? Chirp Chirp... oh wait he did go onto a magicka sorc thread and said, "welcome to stam sorc's world"

That's what I'm saying.

psychotic13 · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

Who rattled your cage

But I personally think a magicka sorc needs 2 changes to be on par with the top choices. Sometimes even a new set can make a build viable if it complements it well enough,

Stam sorcs imo still need a few changes to be a 'top choice' when it comes to any sort of damage from class skills all they have is hurricane, which has only just become good enough to use, with a few benefits added to the passive in terms of physical damage, I main a sorc and feel only 2 changes is enough, while I think Stam sorcs need a few extra bonuses

FENGRUSH · June 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.

I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

You comain about crap trees, well at least you have them! Destruction staff is a CRAP tree, it has what two semi viable attacks (in PvE) and... and... yes that's it.

You mention TWO good trees, I can't even list one.

Sure go ahead and post one positive thing, I'm still not seeing anything.

I'm not talking pure viability, yes plenty of magicka sorcs (pro) THAT ALL RUN THE SAME BUILS.

Thelon's pet build is Yolo with Pets instead of buff toggles, Yolo is the same at NoS' except two moves. My Shepherd is the same as NoS again switch toggles and one armor set.

It's all, and always been, the same two builds. Stam sorcs have WAY MORE variety, even prior. HELLO execute that works? Hello DW or 2H or bow or SnB?

Again did you ever play a magicka sorc?

magicka sorc and stam sorc in pve are both in the same situation, as with any class end game, they all run almost identical bars, magicka or stamina, the top builds for every class run the same build. 2h/s&b are not dps options for pve, they are build options for pvp yes, but for pvp dw/s&b/destro/resto are build options for magicka sorc as well, where stam has dw/2h/s&b/bow. destro is certainly not a crap tree for pve or pvp. Every skill has a viable morph and every passive is usefull. and in pve for single target only 2 dw skills are usefull, just like destro, and in aoe dw has 1 skill and destro has 2 (although there are better options in class skills etc) as for execute, your using a combination of skills in order to get execute values, your not using 1 skill and spamming it to get there, so not really valid, because you still have to continue to do your entire rotation to be viable during execute. for pvp idk that there are many players more justified to comment of stam sorc than @FENGRUSH, regardless of yours or anyone elses personal feelings on him, he and only a few others stuck with stam sorc and made it work.

Haven't you read DW sorcs are dead... SnB sorcs are definitely dead... destro huh? Ok, sure it's good, (not imo as what WoE is only PvE, and then crushing shock etc? The moves that make happy to see in PvP cuz it means they are super weak) but ok.

I have a problem with Fengy as all I ever saw was complaining and complaining, and then I guess a break. And this while stam has had so much more available to them.

Magicka sorc has always been pigeonholed compared to any stam build, including stam sorc. My point is, with all this complaining, did he ever try a class and build that actually has it bad?

@Waffennacht Stamina Sorcerer prior to this patch was most likely the weakest class, and definitely the weakest stam class. You can argue that it has access to good armor, and more weapon skill lines than magic, but so does every other stam class. However, other stam classes also had access to class abilities that complimented their builds.

Stam Sorc had nothing. No stam ultimate. No stam damage abilities. The only sorc abilities used were crit surge, bound armaments, boundless storm, and streak.

Crit surge was decent in PVE, but pretty weak in PVP. Didnt proc off dots. Got cut in half twice due to battle spirit. even less effective by shields and crit resist. On the other hand Mag sorcs could slot a resto for heals and healing ward, and stack healing ward on top of Hardened Ward.

Bound Armaments: Another great PVE ability, however, since it needs to be double barred, it was difficult to find room for. If you can't find room, you lose 8% stam and 20% recovery. If you found room, your down to 8 ability slots.

Boundless Storm: Nice speed boost and Major Resist buff. Other than that the damage was weak. Good utility, but not a gamechanger.

Streak: A fun ability, but not that practical. Can't use it to escape, only effective at stunning opponents. Only can cast it once or twice.

Stam Sorcs did not have a single useful class ultimate. They pretty much had to be Werewolf builds or just slot Flawless for the passive damage bonus. Again, these options were available to all classes. Any other Ultimate chosen would be weaker than if a Mag Sorc used it.

Stam sorcs also had to invest in Health and Impen gear.

Meanwhile Magic Sorcs could invest in full damage/low health builds while being able to rely on shields for defense. They could use Meteor, Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Atronach, Overload, Soul Assault ultimates at full damage scaling with CP.

They could use Frags, Curse, Proxy/Inev Det, Daedric Mines, Mages Fury, Liquid Lightning, to compliment the few viable Destro abilities. They had enough damage abilities to not even slot a destro and run DW. Decent Mag sorcs were literally unkillable in PVP in 1v1 due to shields. Mag Sorcs posted the highest achieved scores in vMA.

If you are arguing that before this patch, Stam Sorcs were more viable than Magic Sorcs, I think that 99% of people would disagree. Name one thing that made them better in PVP than any other Stam class.

Your leveling a Stam Sorc now and stated the following:

"1. DW passives that act like an execute (Rapid Strikes buffed in DB)
2. Bow semi executes (Poison Injection buffed in DB)
3. 2H execute (Reverse Slice Buffed in DB)
4. Implosion semi execute (Didn't exist for stamina prior to DB/Buffed in DB)

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks (Switched to Physical/buffed in DB). Hurricane does great damage (Didn't exist before DB). Blood craze (Didnt exist before DB/other morph didn't proc surge before DB) and rendering slashes are heals and good damage (Didnt proc surge before DB)."

All these things were less effective or didn't exist before this patch.

Now if you are just upset about the recent patch's effect on Magic Sorc, I can understand your frustration. Or if your mad that Stamina in general got some ults and buffs to make them more viable than I guess thats just the way it goes. If that is the case than just say it. No need to call people out. And no need to make claims that Stam Sorc has been OP all along. Stam Sorc has been at a disadvantage to all other stam classes, and all magic classes (Except maybe Mag DK), up until Dark Brotherhood.

Just seems a little childish to call someone out for complaining in the past about a class that was obviously underpowered. Especially when that person has faithfully played that underpowered build forever, and not jumped to the FOTM builds of each patch. Now that it got a buff after years of being weak, and you're leveling a Stam Sorc, you come on and say "Stam Sorc OP".

Thank you for covering what I didnt have the patience to do! Well said.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

OP, I'm sorry but stam sorc tears have been wiped away this patch. They are really awesome now. Even the infamous @Fengrush has slowed his public moaning...

In my opinion, Stormcalling has become the best offensive PvP class tree for a stamina character, with Aedric Spear in close second (Assassination/Shadow are often more lethal but Nightblades are all cheese).

Of course we can all rally around the banner of needing more skill and build options. There are lots of ways to solve that problem, but I hope ZOS soon comes around to the realization that rigid class systems are lame and outdated (not to mention a balancing nightmare) and they start to offer further character progression through eventual access to other class trees while also adding new trees to the game.

Public moaning?!

Oh man - you guys clearly havent walked a mile in stam sorcs shoes from 1.7 up to end of thieves guild..

I'm actually really liking Stamina Sorcerer as well now, but I understood why you were upset with things in the last couple of patches @FENGRUSH . They've also resolved a few of the balance concerns that I've posted about which made me really happy, and gives me a positive outlook on them improving the Sorcerer class in a balanced way. I personally think the class still needs a few more iterations to get right, assuming they do not yet again make major underlying changes to game systems. As it stands though I'm very happy with Stamina Sorcerer, and I mostly feel apathetic toward magic sorcerer because it is just not an interesting playstyle to me. I still argue that the magic sorcerer would be loads more fun if they did away with the requirement for pets to be toggled on both bars. In fact the whole toggle-class design idea should go in the trash in my view. Toggles are generally not a good idea in a game where so few abilities can be used. It might be a little more acceptable if we had mouse/controller combinations like DCUO has, but we don't. I've argued this for some time. If they remove toggles I think they might also want to CONSIDER getting rid of the 3rd Overload bar, but that really depends on the balance so I hesitate to say its a necessity (but it could be potentially very overpowering). The reason I'm not particularly fond of Toggles is that it takes away from a lot of the strategy/skill of the player and turns the game into a 2 button click game, very boring. The removal of the toggle concept will sprout more creativity and FUNCTIONAL unique builds, and that I think will be a good thing.

This is a great post too on the issue. Ive asked for remove of complete redesign of deadric summoning for everyone for awhile, but I dont see it happening.

A big issue was when they changed how armor worked and changed soft caps - which Im not completely against. But people were shredding light armor, and as a result, you had a shift into powerful sorc shields stacking shields and damage. I stopped playing magicka sorc then, it wasnt really that fun for me and never enjoyed stacking shields.

You can argue sorc is tracked into very single roles and gameplay, and that goes for alot of classes - I agree forsorcs though. Its beyond skill rotation, its how they have to build to live and be functional. Try playing a magicka sorc that is offensive and not using shields. This is the only patch I feel you can start to do it, because you dont need as much high end damage. A lot goes for other classes too.

I could build my stam sorc to the max damage and drop 4-6k meteors on people last patch as my best ult option. It was a huge joke. When @Waffennacht says stam sorc had more 'viable options' it proves he has no idea how terrible of a place stam sorc was in. Almost nothing was viable in playing it. Weapon lines existed, but using them was hardly viable for anything.

So if youre jumping on the stam sorc train now that it has functional design in a patch where stam overall has taken a buff - welcome to the squad. If my fighting for stam sorc has upset you, sorry you feel that way.

Youve been playing a high elf magicka sorc though, so youre talking from a place of having the top tier class for a ton of patches now at this point. Its laughable talk about stam sorc or make statements like:

"My point is, with all this complaining, did he ever try a class and build that actually has it bad?"

Waffennacht · June 2016

@FENGRUSH you act like everyone just copies the top tier build.

Some of us would like to design our builds with synergies provided by unique interactions between armors weapons and class abilities.

If you haven't noticed I abhor following any other player, I purposely held out from destro staff for that reason until ZoS decided that we should have no choice.

The sheer fact they nerfed Trapping Webs BECAUSE it was being used not as intended means they purposely do not want unintended builds.

So they did away with them.

I have, Imo the most unique sorcerer viable end game build there is. And still it's all the same abilities as other magicka sorcs.

"With all your complaining did you ever try to be unique outside of stam sorc?" - Should be the quote.

Who cares if magicka sorcs can be good If it's pigeonholed into one exact build? I sure as hell find that to be more of a reason to complain that your min maxed build just doesn't completely decimate 3 players but only 2, or your vMA score is just not AS high.

Your build got it done, your stam sorc was unique, yes and so you could've gone a lot of other routes, though not as effective you had them. We don't even have an option to try a "crap tree line"

You're complaining your choices sucked, I'm saying at least you have them.

Edit: Altmer magicka sorc Pet build running Trinimac and clever alchemist is not the "top tier class" i had to fight tooth and nail to even prove Trinimac can even be used, sure as hell haven't been called top tier before.

Ps hell as a stam you get to cc break and roll dodge, the game mechanics themselves pigeonhole magicka builds, especially sorcs. You say you had nothing yet posted clips on beating multiple players and content, I find that rather inconsistent.

hedna123b14_ESO · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I do NOT consider any GROUP player to be professional, anyone that RELIES on others is inherently weak.

Btw: over 3000 hours as magicka sorc

Edit: still waiting

ahhhh got it now, your right, group content worthless in determining weather someone is good or not......../facepalm

Exactly, it's great for determining a group's abilities. But the only way to know if THE PLAYER is good, is if they are left to their own devices.

Example: i could join 3 other players and beat all content, but my build wouldn't have to be nearly as perfect as my solo vet dungeons build.

Edit: sorry it bugs me but "whether" and "you're"

oh wow, i did not realize your were being serious. you are arent you. i cant decide weather thats crazy or not

edit: threw in some more issues for you there

Lol, yeah I find anything other than self reliance weak and to be dismissed. In this world, yes self reliance is now considered crazy.

Honestly again, a dps that needs a healer for a buff or resources isn't good or bad, they are a piece of a machine. To try and evaluate a cog in a machine without the rest of it is just not proper science.

Maybe if you took one player from said group and had them join a PUG and then have empirical evidence to show that the addition of said player improved the over all cohesiveness of said group THEN maybe you can prove that said player is good or not.

But that's a lot of work when you could just solo

PvE with the exception of that terrible place called vMA is all group content, it is how it was intended to be played in an MMO. And it's always the same - it's a chain made up of links. A player is always stronger in a strong group and his individual potential is also higher with a good group. Measuring your potential with self reliance does not allow you to min max and thus puts you into an inferior position. Also magicka sorcs are fine, pulling amazing numbers if you do it right.

This is just to lol, "mmo?" Didn't they say it's a multiplayer RPG and not an MMO?

Second, only a hand full of dungeons are not soloable. If i remember correctly ZoS said that specifically stronger players would be able to solo them (meaning they had it in mind during creation)

And fyi, I never said Sorc wasn't viable, just pigeonholed into the same build over and over again

While strongest players are ABLE to solo dungeons it wasn't intended to be this way and you know it. It's a power creep from CP. Also you can solo a dungeon, but I'll take 3 other people and do it 4 times faster, so my argument about optimization stands.

Sorcs have plenty of build variety if you theorycraft. There is a link to a build in my signature. That pulls 30-45k in MoL depending on the boss.

NativeJoe · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As a magicka sorc now leveling a stam sorc.

I find the exact OPPOSITE is true.

I have WAY more abilities available to me!

You mentioned execute, well as a stam sorc you get

1. DW passives that act like an execute
2. Bow semi executes
3. 2H execute
4. Implosion semi execute

For ults you get a good strong hitting dawnbreaker that boosts all attacks. Hurricane does great damage. Blood craze and rendering slashes are heals and good damage

You get dodge roll, cc break, vigor, caltrops minor and major expedition. Heck you get also streak if you want.

You get solid single target and really good AoEs.

The only things you semi give up are insanely high spot heals and a solid ward. Through mitigation and hots the ward isn't as crucial to survival.

So after my experience, magicka sorcs are more pigeonholed, less fun, and less effective than a stam sorc. @FENGRUSH did you ever try the other builds? You're constant complaints suddenly have a LOT less merit in my eyes.

Constant complaints? I dont think youve heard my take on stam sorc this patch on live. And youre just doing a comparison on magicka sorc in what respect?

In that magicka has always had a harder time finding viable alternatives to be competitive.

I will admit im console so I do not know about the abomination that was this game previous to console release, however I feel the game only became viable because of console so I consider it a wash.

Any stam build has no room to complain with the huge amount of choices in the weapon trees. All I have ever seen is whining about how stam sorcs got nothing over the last year. Here this whole time you've had more access to viable abilities than I've ever had a chance to experience as a magicka sorc.

No word on the praise? No, I will not watxh your stream, if you only commented on your stream I wouldn't even know your name, but you're here too, I will not support you or your channel. If you wanna talk about how ZoS buffed stam sorc (which I haven't heard) do it here, publicly, just like your complaints.

Ps I thought you quit, didn't stick or do you visit for the forums for kicks?

I never quit - I took a break.

This bolded portion is absolute insanity. Stam sorcs were bottom gutter tier for many patches. This patch - stam has got a buff, and stam sorcs have access to a stam ult for the first time ever. This changes things in a huge way.

Those are important, because without those changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry is much better, but without the other changes, theyd still be crap. Flurry being crap and stam sorc being crap the patches before, means using DW for anything but tornado, which also became crap... was complete crap.

Magicka sorc is still very strong, and can still smother a stam sorc 1v1. For many patches, a stam sorc could not even beat a magicka sorc of equal skill level. They have the tools to do it now, but Id still weigh in on magicka sorc with the edge.

To say we have access to lots of trees that are crap, means nothing. 2 hander and S+B were good. DW was junk for most of those patches, and bow is a back bar use. Its been buffed this patch and is much better as well, but its never a main damage tool.

I dont even know the other bit about I have to make posts here to praise stam sorc? You want my thoughts on stam sorc? Ill post them here or voice them on my channel where its much easier to communicate thoughts and discuss issues with people like I have done.

If you want to continue down this path - Ill link plenty of competant and high level magicka sorcs player that will verify everything here. Its hardly an opinion, its a godamn fact of how polarized things were. You simply cannot say those things if youve actually played stam sorc a significant amount of time from 1.7-Tguild patches.

You comain about crap trees, well at least you have them! Destruction staff is a CRAP tree, it has what two semi viable attacks (in PvE) and... and... yes that's it.

You mention TWO good trees, I can't even list one.

Sure go ahead and post one positive thing, I'm still not seeing anything.

I'm not talking pure viability, yes plenty of magicka sorcs (pro) THAT ALL RUN THE SAME BUILS.

Thelon's pet build is Yolo with Pets instead of buff toggles, Yolo is the same at NoS' except two moves. My Shepherd is the same as NoS again switch toggles and one armor set.

It's all, and always been, the same two builds. Stam sorcs have WAY MORE variety, even prior. HELLO execute that works? Hello DW or 2H or bow or SnB?

Again did you ever play a magicka sorc?

magicka sorc and stam sorc in pve are both in the same situation, as with any class end game, they all run almost identical bars, magicka or stamina, the top builds for every class run the same build. 2h/s&b are not dps options for pve, they are build options for pvp yes, but for pvp dw/s&b/destro/resto are build options for magicka sorc as well, where stam has dw/2h/s&b/bow. destro is certainly not a crap tree for pve or pvp. Every skill has a viable morph and every passive is usefull. and in pve for single target only 2 dw skills are usefull, just like destro, and in aoe dw has 1 skill and destro has 2 (although there are better options in class skills etc) as for execute, your using a combination of skills in order to get execute values, your not using 1 skill and spamming it to get there, so not really valid, because you still have to continue to do your entire rotation to be viable during execute. for pvp idk that there are many players more justified to comment of stam sorc than @FENGRUSH, regardless of yours or anyone elses personal feelings on him, he and only a few others stuck with stam sorc and made it work.

Haven't you read DW sorcs are dead... SnB sorcs are definitely dead... destro huh? Ok, sure it's good, (not imo as what WoE is only PvE, and then crushing shock etc? The moves that make happy to see in PvP cuz it means they are super weak) but ok.

I have a problem with Fengy as all I ever saw was complaining and complaining, and then I guess a break. And this while stam has had so much more available to them.

Magicka sorc has always been pigeonholed compared to any stam build, including stam sorc. My point is, with all this complaining, did he ever try a class and build that actually has it bad?

Lol - this guy is a joke. Ive likely played more magicka sorc than you have in this game.

A class that actually has ever had it bad. From a magicka sorc player to a stam sorc player... this is completely laughable.

Please tag any magicka sorc player you think is good in the game to weigh in on the subject @Waffennacht - they wont side with you. But you seem to be on an island in your thought process, so you wont be tagging any well known magicka sorc players.

@FENGRUSH

Just going to throw this out there... but ever since DB started you've been going around pissing off the Magicka sorcs on the forums. I know you've told me your not meaning to come off as offensive or condescending to us... but Seriously, After you've got more reaction from us then the actual trolls saying l2p and plz more sorc tears plz....Don't you think it's not us just being thin skinned...and you are rubbing us the wrong way?

it is the *tone* of your comments and insisting that we're Not as screwed as you are. IDC whose pooch is more screwed. the fact is we both feel that way, and why arn't you on all of our sides. They changed the entire dynamic of sorcs, Point blank, even them bringing back necropotence and some old sets seems kinda mute since no one with any skill tries to power through our shields anymore. they just count to 5 and CC burst combo.

While you can argue one way or another... I think both stam sorcs and magicka sorcs have reasonable issues here.
Meta sorc has always been viable... but DB patch did change the viability of a great deal of niche builds. Yes Meta sorcs are still viable... and from having fought a great deal of stamina sorcs, I think they're doing alot better then before. Out there on the battle field I rather fight a stamina DK, stamina NB, Before a stamina sorc. The only one that tops a stamina sorc right now on my threat list is stamplar.

On your threat list how would you line things up? magically and stamina and tank build wise.

My list:
first weakest, last strongest verses my style of game play.
Stamina dk > Stamina NB > Stamina sorc > Stamina Templar
Magicka sorc > Magicka DK > Magicka NB > Magicka Templar
Tank builds....
Sorc>NB>DK>Templar

I'm not saying I agree with @Waffennacht all the way. But he isn't exactly 100% wrong either. Magicka sorcs with the increased cost of break free and dodge have pretty much been pushed into heavy armor for any sort of viability in pvp. or even worse have been pushed into wearing stamina sets. the addition of necropotence to our v16 arsenal or any number of other "light sets" are pretty much useless imo because with how people are countering magicka sorcs these days. There are a number identity crises issues as well. I know you play stamina classes primarily...but for those of us who have explored the limits of magicka sorc options... it's getting a bit cramped. and Yeah...with the stripping away of webs it seems like they really want us to be standard issue sorcs. Correct me if I'm wrong...but I really don't see you guys using webs.

The best way I can put it is... What would you do if they took away the +12% more physical damage from medium armor, and put it on light. Your entire build would change. and alot of your medium armor choices would not be as good anymore, and You might even consider wearing heavy to be competitive. That is about the closest thing I can equate to what is happening to magicka sorcs right now.

Brutusmax1mus · June 2016

This is a passive, not an execute. Thinking of it and relying on it as an execute is wrong.