Cheating and Exploits

MuddledMuppet

Eiagra wrote: »

Right, so, playing Devil's Advocate a bit here... but there's a very strong reason why ZOS must forbid "naming and shaming" that no one is going to like -- liability.


Let's create a scenario.

Say that ZOS relaxes on their name-and-shame stance and allow uncensored screenshots, videos, and forum posts of people who are cheating. Forum toxicity increases a bit as these cheaters are finger-pointed at, but at least players get to vent so THEY get to feel better. I won't go into how much of a mess that alone would make for the moderators.

Now, let's say someone decides to troll a player. They run a screenshot through Photoshop to provide "evidence" and post it to the forums. This alleged cheater finds out about someone slandering their name, and is justifiably upset about it. The matter gets investigated, but in the mean time, the toxic forum being what it is, this person's friends and comrades in the game find out about it and really lets them have it, both in-game and on-forum. This person becomes upset... why would someone want to do this to them? They're just a casual/roleplayer/PvEer/whatever. And now they are suddenly getting all these hate messages.

Let's say one of this person's "friends" knows personally identifiable information about them (I won't go into the lack of wisdom of sharing that kinda info online) -- and in a fit of pique, they either whisper it behind their backs or publicly release it. Maybe the post gets deleted, but with the nature of the internet, it's too late. It's out there now. Suddenly, this person is getting hateful e-mails or text messages or other such lines of communication. The harassment starts leaking into their real life, maybe even their professional life. All because one person gamed the system -- because they "cheated" at the "name-and-shame" game with some basic photo editing.

This person becomes understandably stressed out. Maybe very much so. Perhaps ESO was their outlet, their way to mentally decompress, because real life for them has been hard. Maybe they are questioning if things are worth hanging on to, but this game is one thing that helps them cope, so they muddle through. They hang on. But not anymore... this haven from life, this sanctuary, is now abolished. This person thought they were their friends... Nothing feels safe anymore. And perhaps, they think to themselves, perhaps it's just not worth hanging onto after all...


This is just a scenario...

But because ZOS did nothing to discourage this kind of toxic behavior in a community that they are responsible for maintaining and moderating, it is possible they could be held liable for any unfortunate actions this harassed person takes. Even if they are not LEGALLY responsible, they are still MORALLY liable to the community and could soon find news outlets asking critical questions of what kind of community they are nurturing when this kind of harassment is allowed to go on without action being taken.

So now not only do you have a system in place that creates an even more toxic community, it's a system that can be abused, could potentially leak into a person's offline life, and maybe even cause them harm or anguish.

Why? Because a number of you are rotten jerks who don't care about other peoples' feelings, you just want some sense of vengeance against a transgression, and you have absolutely no sense of discretion, so you want to publicly shame them instead of directing your reports through the proper private channels.

You want people to play by the rules in the game? Then stop being such damned hypocrites and play by ZOS's rules when it comes to reports of cheating behavior! And stop feeling like YOU have to know the result when it's technically none of your damn business! Just let the people responsible for the community do their jobs as they see fit! You're not the devteam -- so you have no burden of liability or responsibility. You're just an upset player that wants their feelings assuaged.

I am not unsympathetic toward those who feel the game is being ruined because of cheaters. I understand how frustrating it is not having full transparency of action being taken. But I don't believe a can of worms can be fixed by opening a bigger can of worms.

A solution will be found. It may not be NOW. It may not even be SOON™. Just hang in there, and remember that there's humans involved in all aspects of this. You, the player, are human too, right?


My apologies for the wall of text. I hope it offers a little insight or something.

Here's a thought, what if the guy in your scenario is actually President of the USA and in a fit of pique declares war on the entire world?!!??!!?

Barbet

Bumped.. because perma band is not perma band

Nefas

http://www.esoleaderboards.com/

"Say No To Hackers In ESO" Lol

KhajiitiLizard

Nefas wrote: »

http://www.esoleaderboards.com/

"Say No To Hackers In ESO" Lol

I just counted 68 "*"s on the vMA leaderboards... 68! Also, more than half of them were from the EU server.

Minalan

NativeJoe wrote: »

Manpoints wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

We need the education out there. Many of these people don't understand that an Elite can walk into a group of people, Mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone. and that is legit game mechanics

@NativeJoe
As long as we also educate people on how stupendously easy it is to hack the ESO client memory to allow you to "walk into a group of people, mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone" and make yourself look like you're an "elite" player.

I dont know if there is any opportunity to call anyone in PVP an 'Elite player' anymore. Admit it, any player that is competent is going to be labeled a hacker, reported and shunned. Welcome to the time of "Safe Mediocrity". I'd like to see someone who has a spare account or just dgaf anymore test to see how well this 'detection' system is. My bet is it doesn't cover all avenues and lets be honest here - if it was that easy to implement something WHY ON EARTH WAS IT NOT DONE ON RELEASE?

Well I call myself an Elite, because Many stand flabbergasted at my builds tankyness, dps, and what it takes to honestly kill straight forward kill me. I've fought the toughest people I can find, and in many cases came out on top. And I get messages from others saying all the time that I'm one of like 10 players in eso they just walk away from when they see who it is they're attacking. That and I gained somewhat of a local fame in the Arb days at the end of TG. I'm no kenapkk, and don't make people Melt instantly, but I can put up one hell of a fight, and me taking on a small group of people isn't to uncommon.

And earlier today my friends**** tried to gank me and I fought their lill zerg for minutes. they compiled the damage done and it was absolutely massive for how much it actually took to take me down. And I don't even use malubeth

I think an elite is someone thats played for a while, can clear VMA and plays pvp in a similar "there is no spoon manner". Dodge rolls perfectly, CC breaks when needed, CC's and executes damage combos to smash people quickly, and over all has a smooth sense of game play that leaves normal players with their mouths open. And plenty of those people Do exist ingame and I really don't think they're cheating. Many of them are in the dueling guilds and are active members.

Don't pretend that some of 'top tier elite' aren't using 'secret' builds that exploit bugs in the game, or take advantage of unintended side effects of broken sets and skills. Some of them go as far as to delete threads where their 'secrets' are accidentally revealed.

For example: I know for a fact some of the ego stroking 'greats' are exploting a Stam sorc 'pulverize' bug, where if you put only one point into it, the execute procs on EVERY low health player before they get a chance to vigor or breath of life. The fully specced proc chance should be about one in twenty, not 100%.

You can see it in some player's YouTube videos. One pulverize after another after another. Thats statistically impossible at a 5% proc rate. I can't link the video because of naming and shaming, but most people are smart enough to YouTube search them.

They don't want these secret out. ZOS is clueless at math/programming and can't figure it out. Meanwhile dozens of people subscribe to these 'elites' fawning over how 'great' they are.

SwaminoNowlino

@Minalan that is some A Grade bull bleep. So he's just not supposed to use a class passive because ZOS screwed up their game? That's utterly ridiculous in just about every way. So if a Templar's burning light got screwed up by ZOS, Templar's wouldn't be able to run any of their class abilities by your logic. Everyone is running around with Malubeths, which is a known bug, but he can't run a class ability? And you're gonna claim that's cheating...?

NobleNerd

daemonios wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

The permanent bans are not being lifted. I have several of them on my friends list none have logged in since that day they were banned and hope it stays that way. I check it daily tbh. Is you have any real (verifiable) information to the contrary. Post it.

You don't know what you're talking about, so don't make such sweeping statements. Some permanent bans have been lifted, the players have been seen in-game, and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom has stated they might give permanently banned players a last chance. The thread where she posted this is locked so I can't use quote, but it's been quoted by others multiple times. Inform yourself or stop spreading misinformation please.

I find this interesting. I mean they have "7 million players"! What would even a few thousand permanent bans mean to them when it comes to income (end sarcasm). In any MMO why would any company EVER lift a permanent ban on blatant offenders?

Minalan

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Minalan that is some A Grade bull bleep. So he's just not supposed to use a class passive because ZOS screwed up their game? That's utterly ridiculous in just about every way. So if a Templar's burning light got screwed up by ZOS, Templar's wouldn't be able to run any of their class abilities by your logic. Everyone is running around with Malubeths, which is a known bug, but he can't run a class ability? And you're gonna claim that's cheating...?

Most people put two points into it, and it works fine. But if you put just one, it *** up everything.

Then we keep it a huge secret so that ZOS doesn't find out, and they keep a HUGE advantage over other players.

Yes, I call that BS and you lower than filth for defending it.

kevlarto_ESO

Played all day Sunday, had great battles no lag to mention, this certain group of players come on lag goes up, they don't take damage and move fast, and all these players after the Cheat Engine came to light were dying like normal players, in a few days after I guess they figure nothing will happen to them, they are back in god mode, there is no legit build in the game, that will let 10 to 15 players beat on one player for 45 seconds to a minute before they take damage, if there is I would like to know what it is and prove to me it is not a cheat.

A lot my guild refuses to pvp, until the cheaters are dealt with, they are dropping their subs and not buying from the crown store, this is some of the damage that cheaters cause to games, loss of revenue, and players.

SwaminoNowlino

Minalan wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Minalan that is some A Grade bull bleep. So he's just not supposed to use a class passive because ZOS screwed up their game? That's utterly ridiculous in just about every way. So if a Templar's burning light got screwed up by ZOS, Templar's wouldn't be able to run any of their class abilities by your logic. Everyone is running around with Malubeths, which is a known bug, but he can't run a class ability? And you're gonna claim that's cheating...?

Most people put two points into it, and it works fine. But if you put just one, it *** up everything.

Then we keep it a huge secret so that ZOS doesn't find out, and they keep a HUGE advantage over other players.

Yes, I call that BS and you lower than filth for defending it.

Well the particular individual tested it to see if it worked, but doesn't run around like that. So get out of here with your saltiness, and get gud.

Regardless, I have a low level Stam sorc. I don't have that skill line maxed out, so I can't put two points in there. But you better believe I will run around with one until I can.

This is ridiculous that people can't see a difference between downloading software and manipulating code to enable god mode, and using abilities that ZOS programmed and are working according to how they were programmed. ZOS hasn't even acknowledged that its a bug, so get out of here with that crazy crap.

Are you going to continue using your gap closer that is bugged? Yep. Are you going to continue using your Templars sweep ability, which is bugged because burning light is proccing two often? Yep. And you're a Templar so I'd bet money you are running the admittedly bugged Malubeth set. So by your own logic you are cheating. Right?

Hear that folks, everyone using Malubeth is a cheater and should be permabanned. Because logic.

SirAndy

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Minalan that is some A Grade bull bleep. So he's just not supposed to use a class passive because ZOS screwed up their game? That's utterly ridiculous in just about every way. So if a Templar's burning light got screwed up by ZOS, Templar's wouldn't be able to run any of their class abilities by your logic. Everyone is running around with Malubeths, which is a known bug, but he can't run a class ability? And you're gonna claim that's cheating...?

Most people put two points into it, and it works fine. But if you put just one, it *** up everything.
Then we keep it a huge secret so that ZOS doesn't find out, and they keep a HUGE advantage over other players.
Yes, I call that BS and you lower than filth for defending it.

Well the particular individual tested it to see if it worked, but doesn't run around like that. So get out of here with your saltiness, and get gud.
Regardless, I have a low level Stam sorc. I don't have that skill line maxed out, so I can't put two points in there. But you better believe I will run around with one until I can.
This is ridiculous that people can't see a difference between downloading software and manipulating code to enable god mode, and using abilities that ZOS programmed and are working according to how they were programmed. ZOS hasn't even acknowledged that its a bug, so get out of here with that crazy crap.

So you just admitted to exploiting a game bug with the intention to continue to do so and you find nothing wrong with other people doing the same.

Here's where this gets really ridiculous. If i was to post what i really think of you and what you're doing at a minimum my post would be deleted, at worst, i get banned from these forums.

You on the other hand are free to admit exploiting bugs in the game and come here an boast about it, and ZOS will do nothing about that at all.

@ZOS_AlanG seriously?

Justice31st

Gap closing into keeps and resources is considered a glitch as well, and all of you who are currently during it deserve a ban also.

SwaminoNowlino

@SirAndy how did I admit to exploiting? If I have a class passive, you're saying I can't use it until I'm able to put two points in it? A class passive that every single person leveling a sorc is going to put a point into. Really? Do you not realize how ridiculous that sounds? Should we just not allocate points into anything, because something might be bugged? Zenimax hasn't even acknowledged that bug, and I don't even know it to work. I haven't even played my Stam sorc this patch, I just know I used the cheap respec on every character to reallocate points where I want.

So no one can wear Malubeth. Because according to your logic you need to be reporting every single player who you see using it. They're exploiting and need to be banned. You better be reporting every mid level sorc also, because they are likely exploiting. If you see a Templar using sweeps or Jabs, you'd better report them because there is also an acknowledged bug. You better not be using any gap closers either, because those are bugged in how they interact with the y-axis.

Because using abilities that ZOS programmed is equally as egregious as altering the game's underlying code. Have you taken the time to use logic and reason to build your argument? To think of the implications and logic behind your race to out outrage the previous posted? I mean that's obviously a rehtorical question, because you can't possibly have thought it out.

DUTCH_REAPER

Ran into two AD players tonight "God moding" in the sewers.
#shadowplay #Igotyou

and will I be submitting it to ZOS as soon as the file finishes uploading.

Remember ladies and gents, if you have an NVIDIA card you might have Shadowplay. Check it. And if you do ALT+F10 will save the last 5 mins by default. Eezy peezy

Bromburak

SwaminoNowlino wrote:

This is ridiculous that people can't see a difference between downloading software and manipulating code to enable god mode, and using abilities that ZOS programmed and are working according to how they were programmed

There is no difference, let me give you a well known example.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

snip from patch notes:

Nightblade

Assassination
Teleport Strike: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs could be used to get on top of Keep walls.

Great fix but where is the corresponding fix for DKs that are still able to get into keeps since ages?
I would really appreciate if you could discuss this with the Dev Team.

A simply question, why DKs are still allowed to jump into keeps?

It is not intended that players can completely bypass core Keep capture mechanics by leaping onto walls and into enemy Keeps. You should always have to enter enemy Keeps by taking down a door or wall - any other way is a bug. We are aware that Dragonknights have been able to do this for a while, and and are working to change it.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

The Dragonknight wall jumping issue is a bit trickier to fix than the Nightblade one, but it is something we're looking at.

@SwaminoNowlino

Most DKs that use this bug know that it's not allowed but they still do it because there are no consequences and actions taken by ZOS.

In the meanwhile fixing the DK exploit ZOS could have published a cheating and exploiting page or something similar including all consequences to demonstrate that any kind of exploiting and cheating is really not tolerated by ZOS.

Instead, all customers need to accept that there is no fix or any action taken when others are exploiting and this is unbelievable.
You are basically saying that players should decide where to set the limit. With this attitude you are skating on thin ice in any honest gamer community.

Manpoints

Pomaikai wrote: »

Dear ZOS,

I'm not here to do your job. I didn't buy this game to do your job. I don't pay you a monthly subscription fee for ESO+ to do your job.

So please, do your job. Put GM's in the game. We need boots on the ground NOW! EverQuest had their very successful Guide program of volunteer players who not only policed the game, and could call in a live GM at a moment's notice, but helped out players. We desperately need an ESO Guide program. However, even that won't spare you from having live GM's in the game.

It has to be done. You have to start doing your job making sure that you're running a clean game, and stop expecting your players to stop playing the game they paid, and continue to pay for, to do it for you.

This would also help to retain new players and close the increasing skill gap that makes LFG laughable.

Acrolas wrote: »

Eiagra wrote: »

They run a screenshot through Photoshop to provide "evidence" and post it to the forums. This alleged cheater finds out about someone slandering their name, and is justifiably upset about it.

Not arguing the liability bit, because that's accurate. Defamation is tricky, and often up to court to decide whether the act was a statement of fact or a statement of opinion. Rather than involve themselves in that process, ZOS just wants none of that in the first place.

But that particular Photoshop instance would be libel, not slander. Slander is spoken defamation that did not originate from a written transcript.

I dont think you can defame and ingame character name or alias. Kinda hard to prove rl damages because someone pointed out you hacked on a video game so lets be real.



Its been quite a while since this originally started, my guess is these posts will continue to be a place to be vented into, locked or deleted and restarted as I dont think there is an official statement coming that is anything more than PR smoke.

dagonbeer

Let's not get sidetracked here. In game exploits I trust ZOS will fix eventually, even if it is months away, and there I believe temporary bans and warnings to be appropriate.

The real concern are cheat engine hacks, which may or may not be detectable by ZOS and so we rely upon the threat of enforcement. Now they've shown themselves toothless, I expect cheaters to go on with less fanfare in PvP (no more unlimited meteors, but tweaked speeds and stats, definitely) and with impunity in PvE arenas such as vMA.

Ffastyl

It's been two days. Give 'em a week to scrounge something up.

SwaminoNowlino

@Bromburak @SirAndy let me ask you one question, it's a simple yes or no. If someone uses Malubeth, are they exploiting?

Dradhok

Cheating on your wife should never happen. Cheating on a game, well "if you aren't cheating you aren't trying," I believe that is how the quote goes.

Bromburak

@SwaminNowlino Did you read what I have just wrote?
Apparently not, else you would have understood that your question doesn't matter if ZOS would deal with bugs/exploits/cheats properly and this includes customer communication.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3091085/#Comment_3091085

SwaminoNowlino

@Bromburak it's a yes/no question. Is wearing Malubeth exploiting?

Roechacca

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Bromburak it's a yes/no question. Is wearing Malubeth exploiting?

Yes if they are aware it's bugged. No if they are unaware. Since not everyone knows about it, ZOS probably will do nothing punishment wise to people using it. They will however fix the bug Monday or when the next game patch arrives.

Roechacca

Exploiting is taking advantage of a bug you know is bugged and willingly use that bug to your advantage dispite knowing it gives an unfair advantage. If you don't know then you can't be purposely exploiting, more to which is defined as a unintended participant in a game bug. If you tell someone you know something is bugged and use it anyways, at that point you become liable for your actions in game. If evidence is presented to prove you knowingly exploited for personal gain, you may have to deal with disciplinary action from ZOS if they decide to pursue you. Read the TOS , it labels all these events very clearly.

Van_0S

This is the reason, I stopped playing this game.
What ***-me-off is ZO$ doesn't care about these hackers, but hangs a few less sinners to the tree for show but the real ones( born evil) are still alive and roaming around.

Animal_Mother

dagonbeer wrote: »

Let's not get sidetracked here. In game exploits I trust ZOS will fix eventually, even if it is months away, and there I believe temporary bans and warnings to be appropriate.

Well, we all can hope ZOS will fix it; doesn't mean they will.

The keep wall exploit has been around since launch. ZOS has stated they consider it an exploit - keep walls are intended to be down before a faction can take the keep. Yet it is still being exploited today.

CE has also been around since launch. ZOS has never really acknowledged it existed until recently - even though a Google search will not only reveal the software package, but other groups actively trying to exploit the game. But we players have suffered from ZOS combating CE with undocumented timers on our abilities, XP for mobs reduced, reward drops reduced or eliminated, reduced populations in PVP, and LAG. EDIT: Remember at CE's core, it is a botting package for PVE. PVE'ers should be concerned about it, as well.

If ZOS can't beat exploits technologically, give everyone a login post of what is considered an exploit, have everyone click that they understand it, and punish those who continue to behave as cheats.

Manpoints

Ffastyl wrote: »

It's been two days. Give 'em a week to scrounge something up.

Its been almost a month

incognito222

Having high hopes (again) that ZOS will do something firm in today's patch against cheats.

Yesterday, asked why a player could run on foot faster than my maxed out horse on rapids. Furthermore, said player was not using a bow to dodge roll and run (speed bonus), simply running normally ... response : "stop QQ and get gud" ... will not publicly identify player due to the naming and shaming policy. This player has been reported multiple times by others, but he/she is still very much active.

@ZOS_AlanG , @ZOS_GinaBruno ... please save this game we all love and enjoy, the community stands behind you to root out these selfish cheaters. From a corporation standpoint, a fair gaming environment will drive people to subscribe, improving the company bottomline. We realize it may be difficult to satisfy the community's expectations immediately and the process is currently underway but please communicate with us better as this will give us reason to support the game.

We wish you the best and remain optimistic for ESO's future.

Turelus

Just finished reading up on the new posts and sadly there isn't much progress being made here from both sides (ZOS and Players)

I have said my bit here and unless I see something worth posting to debate I'm just going to /lurk this thread and watch.
I have five months before my sub expires to make a choice on in to renew it or not, this is probably the biggest issue on that for me.

Dubhliam

Turelus wrote: »

Just finished reading up on the new posts and sadly there isn't much progress being made here from both sides (ZOS and Players)

I have said my bit here and unless I see something worth posting to debate I'm just going to /lurk this thread and watch.
I have five months before my sub expires to make a choice on in to renew it or not, this is probably the biggest issue on that for me.

In all other games, such issues would be long dealt with.

In ESO, a five month trial is somewhat of gamble.