Cheating and Exploits

Turelus

Pomaikai wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

bugmom wrote: »

I have been playing since shortly after launch and am very confused about this topic. I see people cheating and exploiting and using macros in PvP ALL the time and nothing ever seems to happen. ]

how do you know they are cheating or using macros? 90% of my time in the game is on PvP, and i haven't seen more than a very few players that produce me some suspicious. I find odd that you suffer the cheats so much, maybe is just a matter of learning the game mechanics to understand what those players are doing better than you

They come onto the forums and try to deflect, obfuscate, and downplay the possibility of the possibility of people cheating at all in the game. You know, like you did.

This is why we can't have nice threads. Stop sling poo at each other and start working together to actually convince ZOS to get a better system.

As for others saying that ZOS don't care because the majority of the games players don't know or care about cheating I kind of feel this is the issue. We have seen posts even in these discussions where people say they don't PvP nor play competitively so they don't care about cheats.

For the most part the cheating isn't hurting the game except for the hardcore fans, and I might as well make the dig again, ZOS don't care about hardcore fans because there aren't any, just the casual two month gamers.

arkansas_ESO

First, I'm sorry you guys (the moderation team) are getting as much hate as you are. Some people take video games way too seriously.

That being said, who should I be mad at for all of this? Who has the final decision in whether or not somebody is banned, or if their ban is repealed?

I can think of two people on EP NA (won't give any more details as I'm not allowed to) alone that were blatantly hacking. It's not a matter of "oh, they killed me in Cyro or got a higher score than me in Maelstrom so they must be cheating!" These people did things that are literally impossible unless you're hacking, like spamming ultimates or getting a score that is literally impossible. Both of them were banned, and both of their bans were repealed. Why? Why even have rules if you won't stick to them? Realistically speaking, what's the incentive for me to not exploit or hack? It's not like I'll lose my account or anything.

Khamira

You know what? I always thought that this whole "Namin' & Shamin'" was here to prevent gosspis, false acusations and destroying reputation of people that someone does not like. Like "Hey my mate told me that his mate told him that dude from his guild told him that Sypher is wearing a makeup!".

Instead we CAN'T talk about ANYTHING related to ANYONE doing ANYTHING or we're even afraid of mentioning something because this rule is IMHO clearly abused. I can understand that things like "I saw Fengrush using Razer Naga on his stream so he's using macros" are clearly illegal, hurtful and they're here only do destroy someones good name. That's naming. But if I post here a guy running faster that my horse - I saw him, you saw him, he knew that X people will see him... He's shaming HIMSELF! What is the difference between 10 people seeing him on a battlefield and 100 people seing what he did 15 minutes ago on a battlefield?

ola.wilhelmssonb16_ESO

I understand why players should not be allowed to name and shame suspected exploiters and cheaters. It would very quickly deteriorate into unfounded and downright witch-hunt-like harassment. But I can't really understand why ZOS can't/won't do it. I think, at the very least, the very worst, unrepentant, third-party-software-using, repeat offenders, who has been permanently banned, should be publicly named and shamed, by ZOS, along with irrefutable evidence to the matter.

I think it's important to keep in mind that there are differences between "exploiting" and "cheating":
Exploiting: Intentionally and repeatedly using a faulty in-game mechanic, or bug, to ones own benefit, to gain an advantage over other players, or to circumvent intended, in-game obstacles.
Cheating: I.e. "hacking". Altering the code of the game client, or using other software that alters the output of the game client, to ones own benefit, to gain unfair advantages etc. The e-sport/gaming equivalent of doping. Not fair at all.

As you may have deduced from my proposed definitions above, I consider cheating/hacking to be a more sever offense and should result in much more sever punishments. No warnings, a rather long temporary ban, lets say 30 days, for a first offense, a longer ban for a second offense (6 months?) and a permanent ban for a third offense.

These actions against cheaters must of course be backed up by plenty of evidence. Screenshots, videos, server logs and perhaps data comparisons to calculations of what is actually possible to achieve. Screenshots and videos can quite easily be edited, so the evidential value of those depends on the reliability of the source.

ZOS: Total lack of transparency and information about your actions against cheaters and exploiters, will hurt your brand, your paying customers trust in your capability to handle this problem and, eventually, your bottom line.

I would like to know the reasons for your privacy policy of "no naming and shaming". Is it legal reasons? Or simply a matter of principles? Or perhaps both?

Tavore1138

OK - I read the rules so I'll try and say what I want to say without breaking any of them...

First - thanks for keeping your promise to reopen the topic.

I hope you can appreciate why we get 'passionate' about this particular subject. People (i.e. us) put a lot of time into online games, we spend time making or grinding for the right gear sets, we invest time in running dungeons, trials and PvP... sometimes we just spend time doing silly stuff in game with our friends simply for fun. Gaming is for fun but like any game with scores it is also competitive at times and while most of us know that life isn't fair we have an expectation that a game can and will be fairer... finding out that certain kinds of cheats have been around for some time is like drugging in real life sports - it is not just that people are winning due to cheating it is the general atmosphere of suspicion that is generated too. Suddenly you can't trust the leader boards... and that guy who just killed you in PvP, was he better than you or did he heal just a bit too quickly and hit just a bit too hard, just how many ultis did he drop... and the fun is gone... and bear in mind that fun for me equals shiny dollars for ZOS...

While it is right that we are prevented from naming and shaming I would strongly suggest that ZOS should consider naming proven cheats or at least regularly updating on actions taken in terms of number of accounts suspended or banned for cheating. Give us some confidence back in the game.

Also while I can understand why you keep exploits quiet I don't think it is working and just gives cover to those using them. A list of known exploits should be kept somewhere with a clear statement on what will be done to those using them in competitive situations and how that can be reported. Remove the grey areas that allow people to exploit - and also when it is a problem with a major skill or item type consider that it may have to be allowed so by making it open then at least you level the playing field (I'm thinking of the old penetration bug with maces here where expecting the whole population to not use maces for 6 months would probably be a bit silly so better to have it public so people can know what is considered cheating and what is not).

A final point (and I realise I am nearing the boundaries of the rules on this one) is that, while I am reasonably sure your intentions are good, following up reports of cheating and subsequent un-banning of prominent cheats with what looked very much like suppression of anyone raising concerns did nothing to help this situation - it is often the instinct of organisations to attempt to minimise coverage when these things come to light (Volkswagen and Stanford spring to mind as examples) but often that leads to a worse result as you still have to deal with the base problem as well as questions of why you tried to avoid dealing with it!

In short you have 2 problems to address - stopping the cheats/exploits AND regaining confidence. I am rooting for you to do it and pull the game back to where it should be; a trusted game where we can have competitive fun with a sense of confidence that I will be beaten by better players (of whom there are plenty) but not by cheats.

tl;dr - cheats bad, please fix, thanks.

Barbet

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

]
We'd previously said we wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic. However, a large number of people contacted us to request having a thread in the meantime, so we created one. Some question what the purpose of the thread could be without new information, or without the ability to discuss specific bans. Those are reasonable frustrations, and in the meantime this thread is largely for general policy, or to simply express frustration. There are some very constructive posts for both.

Is this topic going to be re-opened when you do have new information?

clayandaudrey_ESO

Barbet wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

]
We'd previously said we wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic. However, a large number of people contacted us to request having a thread in the meantime, so we created one. Some question what the purpose of the thread could be without new information, or without the ability to discuss specific bans. Those are reasonable frustrations, and in the meantime this thread is largely for general policy, or to simply express frustration. There are some very constructive posts for both.

Is this topic going to be re-opened when you do have new information?

No.

Laggus

Leogon wrote: »

Is it just me or are the rules more against honest players than they are against cheaters? E.g. You can get a forum ban for naming a cheater(with a video as proof) but a cheater can get unbanned for cheating.

Unfortunately it appears so. As in real life, the law favours the crims more than the law abiding citizens but at times the rare cases warrant this approach but then again there's always the OJ's. Although a game account is far far less important and as such and for this same reason, the onus should be stacked against the cheats in my opinion. No ones lives will be detrimentally effected if there was a rare instance of error in banning an account.

The greater good of the games reputation in dealing with cheating outweighs the occasional mistake made along the way.

Manpoints

Laggus wrote: »

Leogon wrote: »

Is it just me or are the rules more against honest players than they are against cheaters? E.g. You can get a forum ban for naming a cheater(with a video as proof) but a cheater can get unbanned for cheating.

Unfortunately it appears so. As in real life, the law favours the crims more than the law abiding citizens but at times the rare cases warrant this approach but then again there's always the OJ's. Although a game account is far far less important and as such and for this same reason, the onus should be stacked against the cheats in my opinion. No ones lives will be detrimentally effected if there was a rare instance of error in banning an account.

The greater good of the games reputation in dealing with cheating outweighs the occasional mistake made along the way.

by all means let them appeal imo, but have that iron fist, the videos of people flying, shooting meteor after meteor - its flagrant, second chances to them? Ridiculous. They ruined everyones enjoyment which is what ZOS should be protecting. Its what we've paid them for.

Here's a novel idea, permanently ban the guilty, investigate the suspected - and make sure to have developed the tools to make those investigations mean something. Instead we're unbanning the guilty, there's no mention of investigations anymore and using the fear of innocence as an excuse to ngaf.

clayandaudrey_ESO

Manpoints wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Leogon wrote: »

Is it just me or are the rules more against honest players than they are against cheaters? E.g. You can get a forum ban for naming a cheater(with a video as proof) but a cheater can get unbanned for cheating.

Unfortunately it appears so. As in real life, the law favours the crims more than the law abiding citizens but at times the rare cases warrant this approach but then again there's always the OJ's. Although a game account is far far less important and as such and for this same reason, the onus should be stacked against the cheats in my opinion. No ones lives will be detrimentally effected if there was a rare instance of error in banning an account.

The greater good of the games reputation in dealing with cheating outweighs the occasional mistake made along the way.

by all means let them appeal imo, but have that iron fist, the videos of people flying, shooting meteor after meteor - its flagrant, second chances to them? Ridiculous. They ruined everyones enjoyment which is what ZOS should be protecting. Its what we've paid them for.

Here's a novel idea, permanently ban the guilty, investigate the suspected - and make sure to have developed the tools to make those investigations mean something. Instead we're unbanning the guilty, there's no mention of investigations anymore and using the fear of innocence as an excuse to ngaf.

This is bang on. ZOS is giving the appearance to not care about its reputation because they have let it go in the toilet. There is no backbone to their policy, unless it comes to the forums. This is going to fester until they change their attitude towards the use of third party cheats. The punishment should be severe.

KingMagaw

After days and days of @ZOS_DaryaK sweeping away these topics now you create one?. Shameful Zo$. Only reason you did this is because legit gamer's are continually informing you of blatant cheating going on and your lack of integrity to address it, coupled with social media now being used as outlets of information yous cant hide your inaction to cheating.

Zo$ didnt even address the IC exploit, which paid for content was being made a joke for. Didn't even address it although @ZOS_DaryaK swept the topic away, disgraceful action. If the company doesnt give a toss about their software, how to expect people who play the game to.


All Zo$ have done is sweep away all those topics of blatant cheating, made one themselves and will moderate any post with any sort of negative light on them. I have no confidence in company anymore, there policy is obviously do as little as they can. Stopped subscription as how could anyone fund this treatment idk.

DHale

The permanent bans are not being lifted. I have several of them on my friends list none have logged in since that day they were banned and hope it stays that way. I check it daily tbh. Is you have any real (verifiable) information to the contrary. Post it.

SwaminoNowlino

DHale wrote: »

The permanent bans are not being lifted. I have several of them on my friends list none have logged in since that day they were banned and hope it stays that way. I check it daily tbh. Is you have any real (verifiable) information to the contrary. Post it.

Except they aren't allowed to without having the post removed or account suspended. So that's a facile argument.

Lokey0024

NativeJoe wrote: »

I think ZOS should just get thier massive litany of Game testers together. and put out videos to the masses of What *Looks* like cheating, but isn't. Then show some videos of what Cheating DOES look like.

Then take moment to explain the consequences of doing such. Make a statement with it, and stick to it.

For instance, with a combination of quest buffs and armor buffs racials and whatnot you CAN achieve amazing speeds for a few minutes. BUT out in cyrodil running twice the speed of a max speed mount just isn't possible.

show what a animation canceling and quick swap buff bar with looks like.

Or the extreme ends of damage mitigation, what you wearing, what your doing to achieve such like the innocent blixeys set up.

Put to rest the non-legit *cheating claims* and help educate the public of the possibilities.

Like many of KenaPKKs performances do look like cheating when he takes 15 people on at once. but it's amazing muscle memory, strategic targeting, and well timed ultimates that allow him to walk through entire zergs unscathed. Or in many cases dueling get togethers lol.

Or show Zergbads 2-3 hit instant gib combos. Show how people can 1sec shot tanks in heavy armor.

Show what it takes to perform these things, show the numbers, explain them, and educate the public on a massive scale.

I've fought the elites, I've fought cheaters, I think I know the difference...but many don't understand. Like when your fighting a WereWolf with 32k hp that is wearing malubeth and he doesn't ever leave the form and doesn't really ever lose health...people look at that and are like OMG cheat engine or some other blasphemy.

We need the education out there. Many of these people don't understand that an Elite can walk into a group of people, Mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone. and that is legit game mechanics.


Remember to Stop doing this!
and...
go see your local khajiit

And recognize what is and is not cheating, and Back up your claims with video evidence because...

LadyNalcarya

DHale wrote: »

The permanent bans are not being lifted. I have several of them on my friends list none have logged in since that day they were banned and hope it stays that way. I check it daily tbh. Is you have any real (verifiable) information to the contrary. Post it.

Yeah, post evidence and get banned for naming and shaming...

Zoner

Still waiting for an explanation ZOS. Won't respond to tickets about it either.

Also if unbanning hackers is the new standard then you might want to talk to all the people you banned for paltry offenses in the past, as they clearly fall far below this level of violation, which is apparently ok with you now.

daemonios

DHale wrote: »

The permanent bans are not being lifted. I have several of them on my friends list none have logged in since that day they were banned and hope it stays that way. I check it daily tbh. Is you have any real (verifiable) information to the contrary. Post it.

You don't know what you're talking about, so don't make such sweeping statements. Some permanent bans have been lifted, the players have been seen in-game, and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom has stated they might give permanently banned players a last chance. The thread where she posted this is locked so I can't use quote, but it's been quoted by others multiple times. Inform yourself or stop spreading misinformation please.

clayandaudrey_ESO

KingMagaw wrote: »

After days and days of @ZOS_DaryaK sweeping away these topics now you create one?. Shameful Zo$. Only reason you did this is because legit gamer's are continually informing you of blatant cheating going on and your lack of integrity to address it, coupled with social media now being used as outlets of information yous cant hide your inaction to cheating.

Zo$ didnt even address the IC exploit, which paid for content was being made a joke for. Didn't even address it although @ZOS_DaryaK swept the topic away, disgraceful action. If the company doesnt give a toss about their software, how to expect people who play the game to.


All Zo$ have done is sweep away all those topics of blatant cheating, made one themselves and will moderate any post with any sort of negative light on them. I have no confidence in company anymore, there policy is obviously do as little as they can. Stopped subscription as how could anyone fund this treatment idk.

I am starting to see comments about the cheating on some sites like massively overpowered. I guess it is starting to get out of ZOS hands now.

Eiagra

Right, so, playing Devil's Advocate a bit here... but there's a very strong reason why ZOS must forbid "naming and shaming" that no one is going to like -- liability.


Let's create a scenario.

Say that ZOS relaxes on their name-and-shame stance and allow uncensored screenshots, videos, and forum posts of people who are cheating. Forum toxicity increases a bit as these cheaters are finger-pointed at, but at least players get to vent so THEY get to feel better. I won't go into how much of a mess that alone would make for the moderators.

Now, let's say someone decides to troll a player. They run a screenshot through Photoshop to provide "evidence" and post it to the forums. This alleged cheater finds out about someone slandering their name, and is justifiably upset about it. The matter gets investigated, but in the mean time, the toxic forum being what it is, this person's friends and comrades in the game find out about it and really lets them have it, both in-game and on-forum. This person becomes upset... why would someone want to do this to them? They're just a casual/roleplayer/PvEer/whatever. And now they are suddenly getting all these hate messages.

Let's say one of this person's "friends" knows personally identifiable information about them (I won't go into the lack of wisdom of sharing that kinda info online) -- and in a fit of pique, they either whisper it behind their backs or publicly release it. Maybe the post gets deleted, but with the nature of the internet, it's too late. It's out there now. Suddenly, this person is getting hateful e-mails or text messages or other such lines of communication. The harassment starts leaking into their real life, maybe even their professional life. All because one person gamed the system -- because they "cheated" at the "name-and-shame" game with some basic photo editing.

This person becomes understandably stressed out. Maybe very much so. Perhaps ESO was their outlet, their way to mentally decompress, because real life for them has been hard. Maybe they are questioning if things are worth hanging on to, but this game is one thing that helps them cope, so they muddle through. They hang on. But not anymore... this haven from life, this sanctuary, is now abolished. This person thought they were their friends... Nothing feels safe anymore. And perhaps, they think to themselves, perhaps it's just not worth hanging onto after all...


This is just a scenario...

But because ZOS did nothing to discourage this kind of toxic behavior in a community that they are responsible for maintaining and moderating, it is possible they could be held liable for any unfortunate actions this harassed person takes. Even if they are not LEGALLY responsible, they are still MORALLY liable to the community and could soon find news outlets asking critical questions of what kind of community they are nurturing when this kind of harassment is allowed to go on without action being taken.

So now not only do you have a system in place that creates an even more toxic community, it's a system that can be abused, could potentially leak into a person's offline life, and maybe even cause them harm or anguish.

Why? Because a number of you are rotten jerks who don't care about other peoples' feelings, you just want some sense of vengeance against a transgression, and you have absolutely no sense of discretion, so you want to publicly shame them instead of directing your reports through the proper private channels.

You want people to play by the rules in the game? Then stop being such damned hypocrites and play by ZOS's rules when it comes to reports of cheating behavior! And stop feeling like YOU have to know the result when it's technically none of your damn business! Just let the people responsible for the community do their jobs as they see fit! You're not the devteam -- so you have no burden of liability or responsibility. You're just an upset player that wants their feelings assuaged.

I am not unsympathetic toward those who feel the game is being ruined because of cheaters. I understand how frustrating it is not having full transparency of action being taken. But I don't believe a can of worms can be fixed by opening a bigger can of worms.

A solution will be found. It may not be NOW. It may not even be SOON™. Just hang in there, and remember that there's humans involved in all aspects of this. You, the player, are human too, right?


My apologies for the wall of text. I hope it offers a little insight or something.

KingMagaw

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

After days and days of @ZOS_DaryaK sweeping away these topics now you create one?. Shameful Zo$. Only reason you did this is because legit gamer's are continually informing you of blatant cheating going on and your lack of integrity to address it, coupled with social media now being used as outlets of information yous cant hide your inaction to cheating.

Zo$ didnt even address the IC exploit, which paid for content was being made a joke for. Didn't even address it although @ZOS_DaryaK swept the topic away, disgraceful action. If the company doesnt give a toss about their software, how to expect people who play the game to.


All Zo$ have done is sweep away all those topics of blatant cheating, made one themselves and will moderate any post with any sort of negative light on them. I have no confidence in company anymore, there policy is obviously do as little as they can. Stopped subscription as how could anyone fund this treatment idk.

I am starting to see comments about the cheating on some sites like massively overpowered. I guess it is starting to get out of ZOS hands now.

Yes there was some player who said this on forums, going to inform gaming companies and outlets. Shortly after this, this thread was made. Coincidence, i dont think so. If ESO spend all there time in silencing forums and players who take time out to report/inform on exploiting and cheating, what do they expect idk.

Personally i dont fill out cheating/exploiting forms anymore, as they are a waste of my/the players time. Why should i be wasting time doing more work for Zo$, that they themselves (a) should be doing and (b) testing there beta content before releasing to live..

clayandaudrey_ESO

I am not wanting naming and shaming. I am disgusted by ZOS attitude toward the whole third party cheat. The lack of a stance on this is what is frustrating people.

daemonios

Eiagra wrote: »

Right, so, playing Devil's Advocate a bit here... but there's a very strong reason why ZOS must forbid "naming and shaming" that no one is going to like -- liability.

I'm calling cow dung on that argument. If that were the case, every single forum or comment page on the net would have the same policy. That is not the case.

Content hosts have wide protections against liability for content created by their users.

Sunburnt_Penguin

@ZOS_AlanG

Given that videos surfaced showing 5-15 players blatantly using CE and 43 players got banned within a few days (a number of whom got those lifted), as a company you really need to be more:

- Proactive in identifying cheaters:
From what I gather, people have used this since Beta and as a company you should have mechanisms in place to identify these players, not largely relying on player reports which it seems is the current process. I understand that player reports are useful but it is ultimately your responsibility to make sure people are adhere to the ToS, not the players'.

- Reactive in responding to people's regular reports:
As evidenced by the numerous whistle blowers on the forums for past exploits (Surveys, double Mundus etc) who simply gave up on reporting these to ZOS because no action was taken: it appears that ZOS only takes action when it's public knowledge and the CE situation completely epitomises that. The 5-15 players who brought CE to everyone's attention apparently did so because of your lack of action on their reports and an additional 28-38 people got banned very quickly following that. That tells me that there is a process in place to identify cheaters but it's just not used.

- Harsh in punishments
Initially they were to be permanent bans but then some of those bans have obviously been lifted. I obviously don't know the reasons why for the majority of players that were but the fact that a player was openly mocking ZOS for letting them back after using CE should be a serious cause for concern. That mentality has arisen due to your lack of the aforementioned actions but also due to your lack of enforcement of your own policies. I suspect the reason is that as a company you're concerned about losing revenue but as evidenced by the threads that you've closed, you risk losing a lot more honest players by allowing players that have cheated back.

- Transparent
Something which would change that mentality is weekly/bi-weekly updates in this thread on the number of people banned. It would act as a deterrent to future and existing cheaters and also ease the concerns of honest players by showing that you are taking action. People don't need to know the ins and outs, just simply a high-level view of the number of players under investigation and those banned.


Yours Sincerely,
A console player who is not directly affected by CE but is appalled at ZOS' handling of various situations.

Bucket666

Mako1132 wrote: »

[... ] The fact that ZOS is actually giving these people second chances is straight up appalling, and proves them to not be a trusted business. [...] I don't blame Alan or Jessica as they're just the messengers, but something seriously *** up is going on here and there is a person who thought it was okay to do. In my opinion that person needs to be fired publicly and the current attitude reversed if there's ever to be trust between players and the company again.

I want to discuss what's actually happening. If that's too much to ask I'm done; I'll have no more reason to post here at all because it will be useless discussion about nothing.

100% agree. This guy, whoever it is, should be fired.

Pomaikai

Dear ZOS,

I'm not here to do your job. I didn't buy this game to do your job. I don't pay you a monthly subscription fee for ESO+ to do your job.

So please, do your job. Put GM's in the game. We need boots on the ground NOW! EverQuest had their very successful Guide program of volunteer players who not only policed the game, and could call in a live GM at a moment's notice, but helped out players. We desperately need an ESO Guide program. However, even that won't spare you from having live GM's in the game.

It has to be done. You have to start doing your job making sure that you're running a clean game, and stop expecting your players to stop playing the game they paid, and continue to pay for, to do it for you.

Pomaikai

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

@ZOS_AlanG


Yours Sincerely,
A console player who is not directly affected by CE but is appalled at ZOS' handling of various situations.

Actually, thanks to console modding you are affected. Maybe not as much as those of us who play against PC users, but affected you are.

Lava_Croft

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

What's the point of keep playing fair if it is not 100% chance to be punished for cheating?

Since you have first hand experience because you were banned for 3 days for not playing fair, do you now think ZOS should have banned you permanently?

The ESO ToS lists exploiting and hacking in the same section of things you are not allowed to do, so where do convicts like you draw the line?

S'yn

Dear ZOS, If I may offer a suggestion on the issues of cheaters- take a page from Blizzard on their stance with cheaters in Overwatch. I am not advertising their games, but they have indeed found a method of banning cheaters that is SO permanent, so final, that once a person has been banned, they can simply never log onto the game again- PERIOD. People have tried to circumvent the ban by buying a new copy of the game with a different CD key, making a new account, logging on from a different computer, etc- none of it works.

I am not certain how they did accomplished this amazing feat, but frankly everyone should emulate this! I don't know if they would be willing to share such technology, but it wouldn't hurt to ask! When the game community knows, beyond any doubt, that cheaters simply will get a galactic boot and never be seen again, there is a great uptick in player confidence.

Despite the many game crashes and broken LFG mechanics- I really like this game. I think you folks do a great job and I like the general direction Tamriel is headed. EVERY game has a certain percentage of jerks, cheaters, etc- that's just life. You kind of expect it in an MMO really.

Acrolas

Eiagra wrote: »

They run a screenshot through Photoshop to provide "evidence" and post it to the forums. This alleged cheater finds out about someone slandering their name, and is justifiably upset about it.

Not arguing the liability bit, because that's accurate. Defamation is tricky, and often up to court to decide whether the act was a statement of fact or a statement of opinion. Rather than involve themselves in that process, ZOS just wants none of that in the first place.

But that particular Photoshop instance would be libel, not slander. Slander is spoken defamation that did not originate from a written transcript.

SwaminoNowlino

Can we quit arguing about liability and this other stupid stuff? It's just a bunch of conjecture without any clear understanding of laws. Section 230 of the Communications Deceny Act is very clear on the immunization of liability for hosting sites from any civil matters when information is posted by 3rd parties. Criminal matters are the exception, but sites are immune from liability regarding defamation and other civil matters when the information is posted by 3rd parties.

So, can we understand civil law before we start debating defamation and liability? Thank you. Now, naming and shaming has exactly zero to do with any liability, it's just a generally good policy as it creates a fairly wide blanket under which you can control information. So can all arguments around liability and other stuff please go away? Thanks!