Cheating and Exploits

Elsonso

Turelus wrote: »

Speaking of the seven million thing.

It still bugs me that they seem to have a system for recording monster kills, quests completed, bounties paid and mudcrabs killed. Yet no logs as to what players have farmed when it comes to removal of items from exploiting accounts.

Either the numbers in the trailer were faked, or they do have the logs for the items but just haven't take the choice to remove anything.

This isn't meant as a snarky post (though it could be read as it without me saying this) it just honestly confuses me.

It is one thing to say that 500 million mudcrabs were killed by all players, and quite another to say that YOU killed 50 mudcrabs yesterday. The first can be done as a simple incrementing counter. The other involves records for each player and session.

Turelus

lordrichter wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Speaking of the seven million thing.

It still bugs me that they seem to have a system for recording monster kills, quests completed, bounties paid and mudcrabs killed. Yet no logs as to what players have farmed when it comes to removal of items from exploiting accounts.

Either the numbers in the trailer were faked, or they do have the logs for the items but just haven't take the choice to remove anything.

This isn't meant as a snarky post (though it could be read as it without me saying this) it just honestly confuses me.

It is one thing to say that 500 million mudcrabs were killed by all players, and quite another to say that YOU killed 50 mudcrabs yesterday. The first can be done as a simple incrementing counter. The other involves records for each player and session.

This is the stuff most MMO games have in logs though because of cheating and exploiting, as well as data gathering for research.
They must also have some kind of stuff like this for the fact they can check when you destroyed an item by mistake and give it back to you. They have shown at times they have good logging of what individual accounts have done but when it comes to exploiting I haven't heard them speak of any logs.

Once again this comes down to a don't tell us what exactly you log and how, but at least mention you'll be checking logs etc if you can do so regarding an issue so we know there is a chance of something being done.

No idea, I wasn't even going to post here again, just bored and reading forums.

ShedsHisTail

Turelus wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Speaking of the seven million thing.

It still bugs me that they seem to have a system for recording monster kills, quests completed, bounties paid and mudcrabs killed. Yet no logs as to what players have farmed when it comes to removal of items from exploiting accounts.

Either the numbers in the trailer were faked, or they do have the logs for the items but just haven't take the choice to remove anything.

This isn't meant as a snarky post (though it could be read as it without me saying this) it just honestly confuses me.

It is one thing to say that 500 million mudcrabs were killed by all players, and quite another to say that YOU killed 50 mudcrabs yesterday. The first can be done as a simple incrementing counter. The other involves records for each player and session.

This is the stuff most MMO games have in logs though because of cheating and exploiting, as well as data gathering for research.
They must also have some kind of stuff like this for the fact they can check when you destroyed an item by mistake and give it back to you. They have shown at times they have good logging of what individual accounts have done but when it comes to exploiting I haven't heard them speak of any logs.

Once again this comes down to a don't tell us what exactly you log and how, but at least mention you'll be checking logs etc if you can do so regarding an issue so we know there is a chance of something being done.

No idea, I wasn't even going to post here again, just bored and reading forums.

For what it's worth, that's probably because they don't really discuss their enforcement tools/methods at all.
If ZOS comes out and says, "Here's how we check for X." Then cheaters find a way to subvert that method.

dagonbeer

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

For what it's worth, that's probably because they don't really discuss their enforcement tools/methods at all.
If ZOS comes out and says, "Here's how we check for X." Then cheaters find a way to subvert that method.

It's true that they have to keep their methods under wraps, but they also need to engender player confidence in their anti-cheat capabilities. Right now confidence is at an all time low and it's hurting the game. I believe the following is true:

1) They don't have any reliable way of catching Cheat engine hackers, and the majority of bans so far originates from player reporting.

2) Those who had their permaban revoked received their reprieve due to the inability of ZOS to fully verify that CE cheating occurred.

3) CE users are probably growing more and more confident with lack of official response.

4) Not enough resources have been allocated to combat cheating, since there's no CE for consoles, and cheating is not a hot topic with casual players.

I would be happy if none of this is true, but in the absence of any official word I think this is an accurate portrayal. If they can just give some numbers -- x numbers banned due to player reporting, y number caught by their anti cheat tools -- this would go a long way towards reestablishing trust and give the cheaters pause.

AnnieBeGood

.No no, I want ZOS to say 'We are now checking all accounts for X. Using X will result in an immediate ban.'

I don't need to know how, or who - I just want to feel confident we are all on the same playing field. Both in pvp and pve, because X is being used all over the game.

Xylphan

Papa_Hunt wrote: »

And can they not detect this cheat engine thing? THAT seems to trump all other cheats/exploits, no?

Detection means jack. They need to fix the code. The general issue is that the client can be exploited through simple methods due to the server basically treating the client as "trusted". Until that's fixed, the game will always be easily exploitable.

Seriously, all you need is a couple lines of C code and some knowledge about the client. I was writing things like this to crack programs back when I was punk kid decades ago. These days you have tools with nice GUIs that allow just about anyone to do it.

dagonbeer

AnnieBeGood wrote: »

.No no, I want ZOS to say 'We are now checking all accounts for X. Using X will result in an immediate ban.'

I don't need to know how, or who - I just want to feel confident we are all on the same playing field. Both in pvp and pve, because X is being used all over the game.

Xylphan wrote: »

Papa_Hunt wrote: »

And can they not detect this cheat engine thing? THAT seems to trump all other cheats/exploits, no?

Detection means jack. They need to fix the code. The general issue is that the client can be exploited through simple methods due to the server basically treating the client as "trusted". Until that's fixed, the game will always be easily exploitable.

Seriously, all you need is a couple lines of C code and some knowledge about the client. I was writing things like this to crack programs back when I was punk kid decades ago. These days you have tools with nice GUIs that allow just about anyone to do it.

Yeah, but I wager that's not happening any time soon. The best we can hope for in the short term is a decent rate of detection and enforcement which in turn provides a reasonable level of deterrence. That's all I'm asking for.

ShedsHisTail

Xylphan wrote: »

Papa_Hunt wrote: »

And can they not detect this cheat engine thing? THAT seems to trump all other cheats/exploits, no?

Detection means jack. They need to fix the code. The general issue is that the client can be exploited through simple methods due to the server basically treating the client as "trusted". Until that's fixed, the game will always be easily exploitable.

Seriously, all you need is a couple lines of C code and some knowledge about the client. I was writing things like this to crack programs back when I was punk kid decades ago. These days you have tools with nice GUIs that allow just about anyone to do it.

Well, there ya go.
Write up some simple code and mail it off to ZOS. I'm sure they'd appreciate it since they are (clearly) incapable.

Barbet

When I stop laughing, I stop playing

[Edit to remove bumping]

NobleNerd

Zaldan wrote: »

NobleNerd wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

The permanent bans are not being lifted. I have several of them on my friends list none have logged in since that day they were banned and hope it stays that way. I check it daily tbh. Is you have any real (verifiable) information to the contrary. Post it.

You don't know what you're talking about, so don't make such sweeping statements. Some permanent bans have been lifted, the players have been seen in-game, and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom has stated they might give permanently banned players a last chance. The thread where she posted this is locked so I can't use quote, but it's been quoted by others multiple times. Inform yourself or stop spreading misinformation please.

I find this interesting. I mean they have "7 million players"! What would even a few thousand permanent bans mean to them when it comes to income (end sarcasm). In any MMO why would any company EVER lift a permanent ban on blatant offenders?

No they have HAD seven million players or rather copies of the game sold, no even close to being the same thing with the amount of people with multiple accounts and the amount of people no longer playing the game, always interesting what u can "PROVE" with statistics

I guess you missed my sarcasm disclaimer in my previous post. I too do not believe the 7 million number represents whom they have playing and supporting the game now.

Pomaikai

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.

People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.

Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.

Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).

Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.

The logical framework seems to operate as follows:

All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.

And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.

I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.

Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.

Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.

Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?

For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.

If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest

Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)

Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using

Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.

Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.

Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.

So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.

/facepalm

SwaminoNowlino

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.

People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.

Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.

Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).

Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.

The logical framework seems to operate as follows:

All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.

And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.

I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.

Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.

Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.

Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?

For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.

If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest

Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)

Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using

Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.

Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.

Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.

So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.

/facepalm

The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.

This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.

Same with Malubeth.

Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.

KhajiitiLizard

Barbet wrote: »

When I stop laughing, I stop playing

[Edit to remove bumping]

LOL editing to remove bumping? Like that's gonna do anything after the fact. /facepalm

clayandaudrey_ESO

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.

People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.

Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.

Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).

Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.

The logical framework seems to operate as follows:

All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.

And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.

I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.

Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.

Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.

Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?

For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.

If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest

Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)

Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using

Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.

Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.

Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.

So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.

/facepalm

The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.

This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.

Same with Malubeth.

Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.

Exploits are bad but let's keep the real focus on cheat engine and it's users.

Exploiting a bug in game is a very bad thing that needs to be punished but the whole third party program fiasco is egregious. This is what is going drive more people away from the game.

clayandaudrey_ESO

KhajiitiLizard wrote: »

Barbet wrote: »

When I stop laughing, I stop playing

[Edit to remove bumping]

LOL editing to remove bumping? Like that's gonna do anything after the fact. /facepalm

At least it wasn't followed with a post about as is the usual. They would have had to moderate themselves for bumping.

Zheg

has been the take-away point from this thread for me.

Pomaikai

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.

People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.

Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.

Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).

Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.

The logical framework seems to operate as follows:

All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.

And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.

I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.

Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.

Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.

Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?

For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.

If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest

Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)

Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using

Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.

Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.

Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.

So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.

/facepalm

The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.

This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.

Same with Malubeth.

Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.

A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.

Xylphan

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Xylphan wrote: »

Papa_Hunt wrote: »

And can they not detect this cheat engine thing? THAT seems to trump all other cheats/exploits, no?

Detection means jack. They need to fix the code. The general issue is that the client can be exploited through simple methods due to the server basically treating the client as "trusted". Until that's fixed, the game will always be easily exploitable.

Seriously, all you need is a couple lines of C code and some knowledge about the client. I was writing things like this to crack programs back when I was punk kid decades ago. These days you have tools with nice GUIs that allow just about anyone to do it.

Well, there ya go.
Write up some simple code and mail it off to ZOS. I'm sure they'd appreciate it since they are (clearly) incapable.

Are you deliberately misreading my post? I was specifically talking about what it takes to exploit the client in it's current state. I was in no way, shape, or form talking about a solution.

Short of examining the source code itself, the solutions can only be talked about at a high level. We don't know if this is a one off defect in the code, or whether this is a result of a pervasive defect introduced by a design flaw. The problem itself is self-explanatory, and how to address it is also straightforward. However, the scope depends on whether it's an isolated issue or pervasive.

Since this has apparently been in the code base since beta and it still remains as an exploit, it looks more like a pervasive defect introduced by a design flaw in the original architecture. The problem may be "too big to fix", which is another way of saying that upper level management can't justify spending the resources it would take to fix it. The developer bug list priorities (what should be fixed) and the managerial bug list priorities (what the managers want fixed) don't always match.

Sharee

Turelus wrote: »

They have shown at times they have good logging of what individual accounts have done but when it comes to exploiting I haven't heard them speak of any logs.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Just a quick update for everyone regarding the recent influx of those using third party tools to cheat in ESO. We've adjusted our automatic anti-cheat systems to focus specifically on the cheats we've seen in the last few days, in addition to launching investigations on specific players. We've permanently banned 43 players in the last 24 hours who were found to be cheating. We don't take cheating lightly, and will continue to ban those who are found to be cheating. We'll be going back through game logs to identify players who were violating our anti-cheating policies in the hours before we performed the automatic cheat detection adjustment.

Turelus

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.

People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.

Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.

Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).

Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.

The logical framework seems to operate as follows:

All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.

And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.

I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.

Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.

Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.

Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?

For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.

If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest

Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)

Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using

Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.

Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.

Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.

So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.

/facepalm

The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.

This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.

Same with Malubeth.

Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.

Exploits are bad but let's keep the real focus on cheat engine and it's users.

Exploiting a bug in game is a very bad thing that needs to be punished but the whole third party program fiasco is egregious. This is what is going drive more people away from the game.

Sadly though as others have said a majority of the population doesn't know or care about the cheat engine or exploitation, then you also have people who when they do find out say "This doesn't effect my game so who cares".

Generally ZOS won't lose anything if people do leave over this, it will be drops in a bucket in regards to their actual player numbers and the streamers/bloggers/website runners are also too in with ZOS to post anything critical to give this wider coverage.

As horrible as it is ZOS can win this by doing nothing, however sadly they lose the last of their competitive players and make most of hardcore fans leave for games with better enforcement.

Sharee

Turelus wrote: »

Generally ZOS won't lose anything if people do leave over this, it will be drops in a bucket in regards to their actual player numbers and the streamers/bloggers/website runners are also too in with ZOS to post anything critical to give this wider coverage.

As horrible as it is ZOS can win this by doing nothing, however sadly they lose the last of their competitive players and make most of hardcore fans leave for games with better enforcement.

That depends on how public the whole thing gets. If the game gets widely known for cheaters running rampant in it, sales will go down.

Thornen

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Generally ZOS won't lose anything if people do leave over this, it will be drops in a bucket in regards to their actual player numbers and the streamers/bloggers/website runners are also too in with ZOS to post anything critical to give this wider coverage.

As horrible as it is ZOS can win this by doing nothing, however sadly they lose the last of their competitive players and make most of hardcore fans leave for games with better enforcement.

That depends on how public the whole thing gets. If the game gets widely known for cheaters running rampant in it, sales will go down.

Just look at other mmos that have had rampant cheating, yep they're all ghost towns unless your playing a eastern mmo where this is a social norm.

Turelus

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Generally ZOS won't lose anything if people do leave over this, it will be drops in a bucket in regards to their actual player numbers and the streamers/bloggers/website runners are also too in with ZOS to post anything critical to give this wider coverage.

As horrible as it is ZOS can win this by doing nothing, however sadly they lose the last of their competitive players and make most of hardcore fans leave for games with better enforcement.

That depends on how public the whole thing gets. If the game gets widely known for cheaters running rampant in it, sales will go down.

True, although again I don't think this will happen on a scale which would matter. No news site is going to run a bad story on a Zenimax game because they want the exclusives for whatever Bethesda are cooking up. Can you tell I am cynical?

The thing is now all I can do in this thread is make pointless posts like this, I covered everything that can be said in my first post here, but untill ZOS do or say something this thread is just going to be what we have all seen for the last three pages.

People are just going to speculate wildly, talk poo about ZOS, sling poo and insinuations at one another until everyone just quits the game.

Turelus

Sharee wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They have shown at times they have good logging of what individual accounts have done but when it comes to exploiting I haven't heard them speak of any logs.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Just a quick update for everyone regarding the recent influx of those using third party tools to cheat in ESO. We've adjusted our automatic anti-cheat systems to focus specifically on the cheats we've seen in the last few days, in addition to launching investigations on specific players. We've permanently banned 43 players in the last 24 hours who were found to be cheating. We don't take cheating lightly, and will continue to ban those who are found to be cheating. We'll be going back through game logs to identify players who were violating our anti-cheating policies in the hours before we performed the automatic cheat detection adjustment.

Thanks, I stand corrected and you gain +1 insightful.

Although now my question is, where were those logs when people abused the survey exploit and needed to have materials removed from their accounts?

Laggus

yumyum wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

yumyum wrote: »

Zoner wrote: »

You don't need to be an anti cheat expert to be justly offended by hackers being allowed to return to the game. And it has been confirmed.

I know it's very negative sometimes and I wish it were different, but honestly the amount of disrespect and disconnect this company has shown to its customers is overwhelming, and a bit of ire/outrage is to be expected under the circumstances.

Believe me, if politely asking once and then shutting up was the way to get Zos to listen, I'm sure we all would have done it long before now.

But it does help to under stand why Zos may let cheaters back in the game / or if the player was cheating, and please note that i have never seen a HACKER in ESO i have seen cheaters in ESO, i also under stand what ZoS needs to do, that does not mean that ZoS is going to do or have the skills to deal with what is needed to be done.

Cheat engine is in this game. You have seen a hacker and just did nit realize it I am sure.

And ZOS doesn't need skills to do what is necessary because cheat engine will still be around. What they need is a strict policy on third party cheating that is ADHERED to, not the lax approach they have now.

Go read what a hacker is, what you are seeing are players using a cheat made on a program a 8 year ago can use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_(expert)

As i said i have never seen a hacker in ESO

You haven't seen a "good" hacker in ESO.

Laggus

Turelus wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.

People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.

Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.

Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).

Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.

The logical framework seems to operate as follows:

All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.

And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.

I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.

Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.

Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.

Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?

For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.

If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest

Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)

Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using

Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.

Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.

Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.

So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.

/facepalm

The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.

This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.

Same with Malubeth.

Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.

Exploits are bad but let's keep the real focus on cheat engine and it's users.

Exploiting a bug in game is a very bad thing that needs to be punished but the whole third party program fiasco is egregious. This is what is going drive more people away from the game.

Sadly though as others have said a majority of the population doesn't know or care about the cheat engine or exploitation, then you also have people who when they do find out say "This doesn't effect my game so who cares".

Generally ZOS won't lose anything if people do leave over this, it will be drops in a bucket in regards to their actual player numbers and the streamers/bloggers/website runners are also too in with ZOS to post anything critical to give this wider coverage.

As horrible as it is ZOS can win this by doing nothing, however sadly they lose the last of their competitive players and make most of hardcore fans leave for games with better enforcement.

I think the majority of the player Base do care and are fully aware. Zone chat is full of it. Most are simply not vocal about it here on the forums or elsewhere.

Manpoints

Turelus wrote: »

Speaking of the seven million thing.

It still bugs me that they seem to have a system for recording monster kills, quests completed, bounties paid and mudcrabs killed. Yet no logs as to what players have farmed when it comes to removal of items from exploiting accounts.

Either the numbers in the trailer were faked, or they do have the logs for the items but just haven't take the choice to remove anything.

This isn't meant as a snarky post (though it could be read as it without me saying this) it just honestly confuses me.

They do have means, as they can look at a players inventory, and see if you, say with the banker writ exploit, harvest 1000 ore from a survey that never went away. They created a script to seek out these players and give them a temp ban. The reason it was a temp ban was nothing to do with what they did, but who they were. Then you have to at least apply the same ruling to everyone so *shrug* everyone got off.

SwaminoNowlino

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Pomaikai you're entitled to that opinion. But if you are going to hold that opinion you'd better be reporting every single person you see using Malubeth. Have fun finding time to play the game at that point.

People are very quick to label others as cheaters. I haven't played my stam sorc since Orsinium except to craft potions or glyphs. I also don't even have the Malubeth set. I'm just throwing out there that some of the accusations and logical thought lines are kind of ridiculous.

Known bug, Gap closers don't read the y-axis right. So anyone using a gap closer in any situation, by the logic you are implementing, is exploiting, because they maybe shouldn't have been able to hit you on that rock. Or maybe you are exploiting by standing on that rock knowing its a crap shoot whether someone will be able to gap close you or not.

Also, teleport strike is bugged (and has been since launch) in that it can sometimes teleport you through doors. Therefore anyone using teleport strike around a keep is exploiting since it MIGHT teleport them somewhere they didn't intend. (This in my opinion is a complete crap shoot. Its happened to me in the midst of combat by accident but when I try to replicate to test it with a friend, I can't get it to work. I think there is a lag element here that is hard to reproduce in testing).

Which, again using the logic provided by some folks here, means that anyone using a gap closer in PVP is exploiting and should be banned.

The logical framework seems to operate as follows:

All bugs are exploits, so all bugs are cheating. Because there is little way to know if something is bugged at any given time, no one should use any abilities or armor because they might be cheating. Thaumaturge is currently bugged in that its not boosting some abilities as intended, therefore anyone using any points in Thaumaturge until this is fixed is cheating because they are getting an unfair advantage.

And lets not forget, everything in the above logical framework is equally as egregious as someone downloading CE to give themselves infinite health and infinite ultimate.

I'm not advocating for cheating. I'm also not advocating for using known bugs to benefit your character. All I'm saying is there are degrees to things to consider before you rush to label folks as cheating. Humans were blessed with the gift to apply reason and logic, yet the internet seems to be devolving us from that.

Here's the difference... Accidentally using something that is bugged in the game just happens. No harm, no foul.

Learning that something is bugged and THEN using it knowingly for personal gain and a combat advantage is ABSOLUTELY cheating.

Okay, that's fine. But do you have any points into Thaumaturge?

For Jabs and Beams, yes. Both are DoT's and are working as intended with Thaumaturge as per ZOS. ZOS keeps breaking Thaumaturge so it doesn't affect Jabs at all though.

If you have points into Thaumaturge then by your own definition you are exploiting and a cheater (if you are on console that is, forgot to throw that part in there). Thaumaturge hasn't been updated in the current console patch to work with jabs/sweeps. So if you're on PC then okay, but by your definition anyone with points into Thaumaturge on console is an exploiter as they are using a known bug to get an advantage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272118/templars-are-not-scaling-correctly-on-console#latest

Am I actually calling you an anyone else a cheater? No. I'm just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are presenting. When Zenimax rolls out patches with known bug and issues, which were brought up on the PTS, its mighty hard to call them exploits. You are entitled to think that way, but as evidenced by the fact that no one is getting banned for using Malubeth, gap closers, or Thaumaturge, I'd be inclined to think even ZOS disagrees with you. (Though that argument loses steam because they appear to be ignoring everything and banning no one, so maybe even using CE is acceptable now?)

Writ Exploit = Immediate Hotfix
Gap closing onto keeps = ignored for 2 + years now...
CE = Temp ban and free to keep using

Wow... Okay, so let's get this very important bit out of the way.

Thaumaturge on consoles is bugged. In fact, it has the same bug that we found on PTS leading up to DB, and ZOS supposedly fixed before it went Live on PC/Macs. In their infinite ineptitude though, they forgot to fix it in the console version before pushing it Live.

Now this bug is NOT beneficial. Thaumaturge just doesn't do a bleeding thing to Jabs at all. It just doesn't work. Put points into it, or not. You'll end up with the same results.

So no. Using a bugged ability that makes you worse off, or if it's just a zero sum game, is NOT AN EXPLOIT! It's just a bug. At least ZOS knows how to fix it for the Templars playing on consoles. Now, how long it takes for them to get off their collective arses is another story altogether.

/facepalm

The point is that it is knowingly bugged not working for Templars. So everyone with points into it who is not a Templar, by the standard you set, gives them an unfair advantage. It's beneficial to everyone else, and they know it's bugged, so they should by your own reasoning, pay 3k to remove all points from Thaumaturge to make it fair.

This is again, your own standard, not mine. I'm arguing that's ridiculous. But if you're going to be making absolute statements you have to own it.

Same with Malubeth.

Alternatively you could admit that we don't live in a world where everything is black and white. There can be nuance, there can be degrees. There can be logic. It's what separates us from the baser creatures of the earth.

A lot of universities now offer online courses that you can audit for free. You should enroll in a logic course or three. Please.

I mean I guess you're suggesting I teach? Because otherwise you're engaging in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. Because all I did was follow the logic of the statements you were making to point out where it may be a tad bit ridiculous.

You: ALL bugs are exploits and if you knowingly use ANYTHING that's bugged to get an advantage over others then you are exploiting and a cheater.

Me: So by the logic of your argument, anyone using Thaumaturge on console or Malubeth is cheating, because there is a known bug with both that give advantages. Or anyone using the AVA bow on console because the enchantment strength is a known bug. All of these things, according to the logic of your argument are equally as egregious as downloading software that lets you manipulate the game client.

It's just the logical conclusion if you follow your chain of reasoning. What I'm actually saying is that it's patently ridiculous and you and everyone else in a race to out outrage the previous commenter, should maybe take a moment to follow out the possible permutations to see if it begins to fray logically before you make blanket statements of outrage.

kevlarto_ESO

I till think ZOS is to soft on cheaters that run third party programs, no second chances, they will just cheat again already seen it happening in game.

Funny how the amount of those so called 1vX, look at me how great I am videos died down after the Cheat engine was brought to light, like I said most if not all of those people, you thought had found some awesome build that made them great, it was just the CE.

Bromburak

WebBull wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

maintaining an open discussion on the matter is important to us.

Is maintaining the discussion important ZOS or is fixing the problem?

The question is why there is enough staff to deal with forum rules but not enough staff to deal with ingame rules ...
That's the point that really bugs me.