Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

Joy_Division

Grao wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

So I PvEd all the content in this game. Every dungeon. Every trial. Every questing zone. All of it. Somebody is going to have to explain to me how exactly reducing the duration of Hardened Ward to 6 seconds is crippling to PvE.

Seriously. I am having difficulty fathoming this notion.

If I am asked to DPS a pledge dungeon, I am not going to put hardened ward on my bar because I am in a group that includes a tank who draws away aggro and a healer whose primary function is to devote resources keeping me alive so I can burn down stuff quicker and more efficiently. Even in a group of average players, I do not feel the need to put hardened ward on my bar to survive. If the group isn't particularly very good, I make mental notes to myself to block more and limit the amount of danger I typically expose myself to - there are other things sorcs can do with their resources that devote slots, time, and magicka to casting damage shields. If that still doesn't work and the healer is just BAD, then I simply put healing ward on my bar. If the tank is just BAD, well, then I would put hardened ward up ... but trash mobs in vet dungeons hit hard and will burn that down in less than 2 seconds, let alone 6. The only difference here is a sorc with a terrible tank will have to cast hardened ward just before an trash pull, rather than casting it after a completed trash pull and having last till the next one.

If I am asked to DPS a Trial, there is zero reason to ever put hardened ward on your bar. Trial bosses are not of the variety where a 20K shield will spare the group a wipe from the Mantikora or what not. There are real DPS thresholds to be overcome and a sorcerer wasting their resources and time to shielding themselves is wasting their healer's resources and opportunities to DPS the boss. I understand that a Sorc could theoretically cast hardened ward every 20 seconds or so in AA and survive an Axe hit Vs. the Mage, but this is an unnecessary precaution that grouping with tanks and healers is supposed to prevent in the first place. Besides, your hardened ward will *not* save you Vs. the Burn phases of these bosses and a sorc casting them instead of DPSing will contribute to a group wipe.

Does the rare sorc tank need a 20 second shield? Well, if they are drawing all the hard hitting aggro, the shield isn't lasting more than 6 seconds is it?

I suppose an argument could have been made a long long time ago at Launch when the veteran level questing difficulty was far greater and sorcs lacked tanks and heals. But again, their shields were not lasting more than 6 seconds against this difficult content and Quest zone difficulty has been far toned down since then.

The only instance I can wrap my brain around how this short duration shield change noticeably effects PvE is Veteran Maelstrom Arena which have enough pauses in between enemy action/attacks where a 20 second shield will conserve the sorcerer's magicka in that they won't have to constantly reapply it in-between these pauses.. But this is hardly crippling. As it is, players in this content are constantly getting beat on by hits anywhere from the 7K to 10K range and, again, that Hardened Ward is coming down quicker than 6 seconds.

*****

This does not mean I like the change to shields. I don't. But let's not get lazy communicating our dislike by pointing to a PvE nerf when it is difficult to see how a shorter duration is, at least from my perspective, more an inconvenience. If my - and ZoS's - viewpoint is incorrect or not appreciating something, then make a specific case to show how a 20 second shield is crucial for a sorcerer's performance in PvE.

My issue with the shield change is that it homogenizes what was the sorcerer's primary means of defense and in effect gives it to all classes and all builds (even stamina). I would have rather ZoS not done this and make it so each class and play-style has some different means of defending themselves, something that would lead to more dynamic and diverse gameplay. Plus this change does not address what most players had an issue with sorcerers: their ability to stack shields.

I would like to have seen sorcerers get an long duration ability akin to how wizards in folklore and other RPGs defending themselves that was more about subtlety and the "you can attack me but bad things will happen to you' variety. In fact, this is what Bound Armaments probably should have been, rather than a DPS toggle that, in fact, provides an imperceptible amount of defense.

Alright Joy, a few questions. How much Health you have and how does your DPS compares with the other Magika DPS on your sorcerer?

When I stopped playing what sorcerers were forced to do to remain competitive in the DPS department was remove all attribute points from health in favor of increasing our Magika pool and thus the DPS. Maybe that has changed, I am not sure since I haven't played the latest extension, alas, from the general answers I've been reading on the forum so far, it hasn't changed at all.

And if that is the case as it seems to be, to remain competitive in DPS you end up with absurdly low health, relying heavily on Ward to stay alive through Raid Bosses general , unavoidable AoE. If this play style is no longer a must as it used to be, number wise, great... But nerfing a skill by 70% of its original duration without offering the skill any buff or even a cost reduction is ridiculous, not to mention the point you made. This is yet another skill that the sorcerer's lose from the uniqueness of their kit as anyone has access to it from the Light armor tree. It is the same as they did a few large patches back with the considerable nerfs to Critical Surge and the buffs to Entropy.

I have run AA, Hel Ra, SO, DSA hundreds and hundreds of times and never once had to rely on hardened ward to say alive through a raid boss. I have never seen another sorcerer in any (completed) raid I was in use it (I do recall some raids I was in that failed had DPS trying to heal/protect themselves, which is not a coincidence). This was back before champion points were a thing pre 1.6 and in the early days of CPs when none of us had all that free mitigation that comes with the system. The raids I ran were on the leaderboards, at or near the top, so the raid leaders knew what they were doing. Moreover, because most raid bosses have hard DPS checks, if you were using shields, you were hurting you group. Unavoidable AoE is mitigated by Nova or Veil, and healers spam healing springs. That was standard, basic strategy. I used to sit in on those guild Teamspeak meetings with the developers: we told them a long time ago that's how these trials were getting cleared. We didn't even have to tell them. They could have gone to youtube and seen Sanctum completes with sorcerers not using hardened ward. ZoS has ever right to ignore your assertion that Hardened Ward was needed against Raid bosses because it was not and is not and is actually counterproductive.

As for my health, I do what is standard to maximize DPS: 64 points into magicka, all magicka gear enchants, farmed IC until I got arcane willpower. For all my classes. I am not "forced" to put all my resources into magicka as it is what I want to do!

You might think the people at ZoS are morons, however they have figured out that sorcerers have defeated Raid bosses without hardened ward. As someone who also believes the ZoS shield change is undesirable, I would like it very much if you and others stopped making claims that simply aren't true, that ZoS knows are not true, because that isn't helping the case. Every class has had to eat nerfs so saying that sorcerers have been treated unfairly in this respect isn't going to garner much sympathy either.

****

Sorcerers don't need a long lasting hardened ward to beat Raid bosses. They do, I think, need some sort of long lasting defense (it doesn't need to be a shield) because their class lacks an insta-cast spammable DPS skill that always heals them. Magicka NBs, Templars, and DKs not only possess such abilities, but have these skills in the AoE variety which is a *very* powerful means of self-sustain when under tons of enemy pressure. Critical surge is *supposed* to be the sorcerer version of this but it is not nearly as good because: it does not always crit (indeed the skill doesn't even increase critical chance) and the skill was overnerfed and made too conditional (cooldown, no DoTs, less healing). A sorcerer with no shield spamming Impulse while critical surged with get killed long before a NB with no shield spamming Sap essence or a Templar with no shield spamming puncturing sweeps. Now Templars and NBs are getting a very good shield on top of that. ZoS will counter saying the sorcerer has two shields. But shields will go down and when they do, the sorcerer is an absolute disadvantage IMHO - especially since these shields are designed to not be pre-cast, a condition which negates the sorc's advantage of two shields. Not everyone sees it the way I do; indeed there are sorcerers who still believe they are better off than the other classes because of those two shields.

My point here is that the shield issue to not as clear cut or the flat out nerf that you perceive it to be. In absence of compelling - let alone correct - arguments, ZoS is not going to revert these changes.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

So I PvEd all the content in this game. Every dungeon. Every trial. Every questing zone. All of it. Somebody is going to have to explain to me how exactly reducing the duration of Hardened Ward to 6 seconds is crippling to PvE.

Seriously. I am having difficulty fathoming this notion.

If I am asked to DPS a pledge dungeon, I am not going to put hardened ward on my bar because I am in a group that includes a tank who draws away aggro and a healer whose primary function is to devote resources keeping me alive so I can burn down stuff quicker and more efficiently. Even in a group of average players, I do not feel the need to put hardened ward on my bar to survive. If the group isn't particularly very good, I make mental notes to myself to block more and limit the amount of danger I typically expose myself to - there are other things sorcs can do with their resources that devote slots, time, and magicka to casting damage shields. If that still doesn't work and the healer is just BAD, then I simply put healing ward on my bar. If the tank is just BAD, well, then I would put hardened ward up ... but trash mobs in vet dungeons hit hard and will burn that down in less than 2 seconds, let alone 6. The only difference here is a sorc with a terrible tank will have to cast hardened ward just before an trash pull, rather than casting it after a completed trash pull and having last till the next one.

If I am asked to DPS a Trial, there is zero reason to ever put hardened ward on your bar. Trial bosses are not of the variety where a 20K shield will spare the group a wipe from the Mantikora or what not. There are real DPS thresholds to be overcome and a sorcerer wasting their resources and time to shielding themselves is wasting their healer's resources and opportunities to DPS the boss. I understand that a Sorc could theoretically cast hardened ward every 20 seconds or so in AA and survive an Axe hit Vs. the Mage, but this is an unnecessary precaution that grouping with tanks and healers is supposed to prevent in the first place. Besides, your hardened ward will *not* save you Vs. the Burn phases of these bosses and a sorc casting them instead of DPSing will contribute to a group wipe.

Does the rare sorc tank need a 20 second shield? Well, if they are drawing all the hard hitting aggro, the shield isn't lasting more than 6 seconds is it?

I suppose an argument could have been made a long long time ago at Launch when the veteran level questing difficulty was far greater and sorcs lacked tanks and heals. But again, their shields were not lasting more than 6 seconds against this difficult content and Quest zone difficulty has been far toned down since then.

The only instance I can wrap my brain around how this short duration shield change noticeably effects PvE is Veteran Maelstrom Arena which have enough pauses in between enemy action/attacks where a 20 second shield will conserve the sorcerer's magicka in that they won't have to constantly reapply it in-between these pauses.. But this is hardly crippling. As it is, players in this content are constantly getting beat on by hits anywhere from the 7K to 10K range and, again, that Hardened Ward is coming down quicker than 6 seconds.

*****

This does not mean I like the change to shields. I don't. But let's not get lazy communicating our dislike by pointing to a PvE nerf when it is difficult to see how a shorter duration is, at least from my perspective, more an inconvenience. If my - and ZoS's - viewpoint is incorrect or not appreciating something, then make a specific case to show how a 20 second shield is crucial for a sorcerer's performance in PvE.

My issue with the shield change is that it homogenizes what was the sorcerer's primary means of defense and in effect gives it to all classes and all builds (even stamina). I would have rather ZoS not done this and make it so each class and play-style has some different means of defending themselves, something that would lead to more dynamic and diverse gameplay. Plus this change does not address what most players had an issue with sorcerers: their ability to stack shields.

I would like to have seen sorcerers get an long duration ability akin to how wizards in folklore and other RPGs defending themselves that was more about subtlety and the "you can attack me but bad things will happen to you' variety. In fact, this is what Bound Armaments probably should have been, rather than a DPS toggle that, in fact, provides an imperceptible amount of defense.

Alright Joy, a few questions. How much Health you have and how does your DPS compares with the other Magika DPS on your sorcerer?

When I stopped playing what sorcerers were forced to do to remain competitive in the DPS department was remove all attribute points from health in favor of increasing our Magika pool and thus the DPS. Maybe that has changed, I am not sure since I haven't played the latest extension, alas, from the general answers I've been reading on the forum so far, it hasn't changed at all.

And if that is the case as it seems to be, to remain competitive in DPS you end up with absurdly low health, relying heavily on Ward to stay alive through Raid Bosses general , unavoidable AoE. If this play style is no longer a must as it used to be, number wise, great... But nerfing a skill by 70% of its original duration without offering the skill any buff or even a cost reduction is ridiculous, not to mention the point you made. This is yet another skill that the sorcerer's lose from the uniqueness of their kit as anyone has access to it from the Light armor tree. It is the same as they did a few large patches back with the considerable nerfs to Critical Surge and the buffs to Entropy.

I have run AA, Hel Ra, SO, DSA hundreds and hundreds of times and never once had to rely on hardened ward to say alive through a raid boss. I have never seen another sorcerer in any (completed) raid I was in use it (I do recall some raids I was in that failed had DPS trying to heal/protect themselves, which is not a coincidence). This was back before champion points were a thing pre 1.6 and in the early days of CPs when none of us had all that free mitigation that comes with the system. The raids I ran were on the leaderboards, at or near the top, so the raid leaders knew what they were doing. Moreover, because most raid bosses have hard DPS checks, if you were using shields, you were hurting you group. Unavoidable AoE is mitigated by Nova or Veil, and healers spam healing springs. That was standard, basic strategy. I used to sit in on those guild Teamspeak meetings with the developers: we told them a long time ago that's how these trials were getting cleared. We didn't even have to tell them. They could have gone to youtube and seen Sanctum completes with sorcerers not using hardened ward. ZoS has ever right to ignore your assertion that Hardened Ward was needed against Raid bosses because it was not and is not and is actually counterproductive.

As for my health, I do what is standard to maximize DPS: 64 points into magicka, all magicka gear enchants, farmed IC until I got arcane willpower. For all my classes. I am not "forced" to put all my resources into magicka as it is what I want to do!

You might think the people at ZoS are morons, however they have figured out that sorcerers have defeated Raid bosses without hardened ward. As someone who also believes the ZoS shield change is undesirable, I would like it very much if you and others stopped making claims that simply aren't true, that ZoS knows are not true, because that isn't helping the case. Every class has had to eat nerfs so saying that sorcerers have been treated unfairly in this respect isn't going to garner much sympathy either.

****

Sorcerers don't need a long lasting hardened ward to beat Raid bosses. They do, I think, need some sort of long lasting defense (it doesn't need to be a shield) because their class lacks an insta-cast spammable DPS skill that always heals them. Magicka NBs, Templars, and DKs not only possess such abilities, but have these skills in the AoE variety which is a *very* powerful means of self-sustain when under tons of enemy pressure. Critical surge is *supposed* to be the sorcerer version of this but it is not nearly as good because: it does not always crit (indeed the skill doesn't even increase critical chance) and the skill was overnerfed and made too conditional (cooldown, no DoTs, less healing). A sorcerer with no shield spamming Impulse while critical surged with get killed long before a NB with no shield spamming Sap essence or a Templar with no shield spamming puncturing sweeps. Now Templars and NBs are getting a very good shield on top of that. ZoS will counter saying the sorcerer has two shields. But shields will go down and when they do, the sorcerer is an absolute disadvantage IMHO - especially since these shields are designed to not be pre-cast, a condition which negates the sorc's advantage of two shields. Not everyone sees it the way I do; indeed there are sorcerers who still believe they are better off than the other classes because of those two shields.

My point here is that the shield issue to not as clear cut or the flat out nerf that you perceive it to be. In absence of compelling - let alone correct - arguments, ZoS is not going to revert these changes.

We can do what NB's did and just fill Tamriel with tears like they did when cloak was getting balanced and get them to fix it just a bit at least.

Justice31st

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Seriously? Sorcs shields are even more OP now with the extra psychical damage mitigation from shield stacking the new DB annulment buff. I am sure the Sorcs 40k magicka from not having to run the impenetrable trait in PvP (due to shields not being able to be crittable; which is ridiculously OP) will be fine with the extra shield recasts. And don't even get me started on PvE; that is what healers are for. Besides, how many sorcs while engaged in combat in PvP only reapply shields every 6+ seconds LOL... If you are answered you do, then your class is OP. @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn

Yes, nerf skills to the ground because of PvP and screw PvE. It sucks that ZoS shares your opinion on how to balance this game

Sorc shields should of been nerfed along time ago. It is the most OP and unbalanced skill in the game.

You really are funny... LOL Button for you again.

You know what is worse about guys like this coming to this forum give their 'opinion'? They have no idea what they are saying... This is a post about feedback... Feedback implies you actually play a sorcerer and have an idea of how the class work. You, mr @Justice31st never played a sorcerer and have no idea how our skills work, likely why you can't kill us in PvP... You are just not good at the game or smart enough to research your *** as you clearly haven't before coming here to give your 'opinion'...

Anyway, yes, Ward is a powerful spell... In PvP, if you don't know how to go around it, it sure can be frustrating, then again, reflective scales and many other skills from the more powerful classes are just as frustrating if not more... Alas, Zenimax hates sorcerers, always have, so we get the shaft again.

As for in PvE, well, we are in an even worse situation as this nerf heavily affects pretty much every play style, but we were given no compensation at all for the loss. It is amazing balancing really.

First off, you don't know me, I don't know you and you have never played against me. I have a v16 Sorcerer as well FYI. Also you do not know my skill level and if I can kill sorcerers or not. The fact that you tried to get your point across by insulting a stranger and tried to be-little me over my opinion (about a skill needing to be nerfed) just shows how immature and "not smart enough" you really are. So give yourself the LOL button, you deserve it. Don't be mad that your class is finally getting its turn for a nerf.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Seriously? Sorcs shields are even more OP now with the extra psychical damage mitigation from shield stacking the new DB annulment buff. I am sure the Sorcs 40k magicka from not having to run the impenetrable trait in PvP (due to shields not being able to be crittable; which is ridiculously OP) will be fine with the extra shield recasts. And don't even get me started on PvE; that is what healers are for. Besides, how many sorcs while engaged in combat in PvP only reapply shields every 6+ seconds LOL... If you are answered you do, then your class is OP. @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn

Yes, nerf skills to the ground because of PvP and screw PvE. It sucks that ZoS shares your opinion on how to balance this game

Sorc shields should of been nerfed along time ago. It is the most OP and unbalanced skill in the game.

You really are funny... LOL Button for you again.

You know what is worse about guys like this coming to this forum give their 'opinion'? They have no idea what they are saying... This is a post about feedback... Feedback implies you actually play a sorcerer and have an idea of how the class work. You, mr @Justice31st never played a sorcerer and have no idea how our skills work, likely why you can't kill us in PvP... You are just not good at the game or smart enough to research your *** as you clearly haven't before coming here to give your 'opinion'...

Anyway, yes, Ward is a powerful spell... In PvP, if you don't know how to go around it, it sure can be frustrating, then again, reflective scales and many other skills from the more powerful classes are just as frustrating if not more... Alas, Zenimax hates sorcerers, always have, so we get the shaft again.

As for in PvE, well, we are in an even worse situation as this nerf heavily affects pretty much every play style, but we were given no compensation at all for the loss. It is amazing balancing really.

First off, you don't know me, I don't know you and you have never played against me. I have a v16 Sorcerer as well FYI. Also you do not know my skill level and if I can kill sorcerers or not. The fact that you tried to get your point across by insulting a stranger and tried to be-little me over my opinion (about a skill needing to be nerfed) just shows how immature and "not smart enough" you really are. So give yourself the LOL button, you deserve it. Don't be mad that your class is finally getting its turn for a nerf.

Yes, you deserve the LOL, just as ward is nowhere near the best skill in the game. Cloak is soooooo much better for that, and next patch ward will just be one shield among many while cloak will still be OP.

Justice31st

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Seriously? Sorcs shields are even more OP now with the extra psychical damage mitigation from shield stacking the new DB annulment buff. I am sure the Sorcs 40k magicka from not having to run the impenetrable trait in PvP (due to shields not being able to be crittable; which is ridiculously OP) will be fine with the extra shield recasts. And don't even get me started on PvE; that is what healers are for. Besides, how many sorcs while engaged in combat in PvP only reapply shields every 6+ seconds LOL... If you are answered you do, then your class is OP. @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn

Yes, nerf skills to the ground because of PvP and screw PvE. It sucks that ZoS shares your opinion on how to balance this game

Sorc shields should of been nerfed along time ago. It is the most OP and unbalanced skill in the game.

You really are funny... LOL Button for you again.

You know what is worse about guys like this coming to this forum give their 'opinion'? They have no idea what they are saying... This is a post about feedback... Feedback implies you actually play a sorcerer and have an idea of how the class work. You, mr @Justice31st never played a sorcerer and have no idea how our skills work, likely why you can't kill us in PvP... You are just not good at the game or smart enough to research your *** as you clearly haven't before coming here to give your 'opinion'...

Anyway, yes, Ward is a powerful spell... In PvP, if you don't know how to go around it, it sure can be frustrating, then again, reflective scales and many other skills from the more powerful classes are just as frustrating if not more... Alas, Zenimax hates sorcerers, always have, so we get the shaft again.

As for in PvE, well, we are in an even worse situation as this nerf heavily affects pretty much every play style, but we were given no compensation at all for the loss. It is amazing balancing really.

First off, you don't know me, I don't know you and you have never played against me. I have a v16 Sorcerer as well FYI. Also you do not know my skill level and if I can kill sorcerers or not. The fact that you tried to get your point across by insulting a stranger and tried to be-little me over my opinion (about a skill needing to be nerfed) just shows how immature and "not smart enough" you really are. So give yourself the LOL button, you deserve it. Don't be mad that your class is finally getting its turn for a nerf.

Yes, you deserve the LOL, just as ward is nowhere near the best skill in the game. Cloak is soooooo much better for that, and next patch ward will just be one shield among many while cloak will still be OP.

Here, you take this LOL. Cloak was better before the DOT removal nerf. Uncrittable shields; hmm yea....

LMar

Reducing the shield durations in general is a blow to magicka Sorcerer tanks. They were hard to play before as when they ran out of magicka their mitigation fell a lot, but with 6 seconds now, magicka Sorcerer tanks are probably a no go!

Memnock

In light of the changes that the sorcerer will be handed in the DLC , i made a thread with a suggestion for 1 of the class skills , maybe its worth a look

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263628/proposal-for-a-skill-modification-for-sorcerer#latest

Teridaxus

Im a dk, but keep fighting stam sorcs.

Derra

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

.

Joy_Division wrote: »

So I PvEd all the content in this game. Every dungeon. Every trial. Every questing zone. All of it. Somebody is going to have to explain to me how exactly reducing the duration of Hardened Ward to 6 seconds is crippling to PvE.

Seriously. I am having difficulty fathoming this notion.

If I am asked to DPS a pledge dungeon, I am not going to put hardened ward on my bar because I am in a group that includes a tank who draws away aggro and a healer whose primary function is to devote resources keeping me alive so I can burn down stuff quicker and more efficiently. Even in a group of average players, I do not feel the need to put hardened ward on my bar to survive. If the group isn't particularly very good, I make mental notes to myself to block more and limit the amount of danger I typically expose myself to - there are other things sorcs can do with their resources that devote slots, time, and magicka to casting damage shields. If that still doesn't work and the healer is just BAD, then I simply put healing ward on my bar. If the tank is just BAD, well, then I would put hardened ward up ... but trash mobs in vet dungeons hit hard and will burn that down in less than 2 seconds, let alone 6. The only difference here is a sorc with a terrible tank will have to cast hardened ward just before an trash pull, rather than casting it after a completed trash pull and having last till the next one.

If I am asked to DPS a Trial, there is zero reason to ever put hardened ward on your bar. Trial bosses are not of the variety where a 20K shield will spare the group a wipe from the Mantikora or what not. There are real DPS thresholds to be overcome and a sorcerer wasting their resources and time to shielding themselves is wasting their healer's resources and opportunities to DPS the boss. I understand that a Sorc could theoretically cast hardened ward every 20 seconds or so in AA and survive an Axe hit Vs. the Mage, but this is an unnecessary precaution that grouping with tanks and healers is supposed to prevent in the first place. Besides, your hardened ward will *not* save you Vs. the Burn phases of these bosses and a sorc casting them instead of DPSing will contribute to a group wipe.

Does the rare sorc tank need a 20 second shield? Well, if they are drawing all the hard hitting aggro, the shield isn't lasting more than 6 seconds is it?

I suppose an argument could have been made a long long time ago at Launch when the veteran level questing difficulty was far greater and sorcs lacked tanks and heals. But again, their shields were not lasting more than 6 seconds against this difficult content and Quest zone difficulty has been far toned down since then.

The only instance I can wrap my brain around how this short duration shield change noticeably effects PvE is Veteran Maelstrom Arena which have enough pauses in between enemy action/attacks where a 20 second shield will conserve the sorcerer's magicka in that they won't have to constantly reapply it in-between these pauses.. But this is hardly crippling. As it is, players in this content are constantly getting beat on by hits anywhere from the 7K to 10K range and, again, that Hardened Ward is coming down quicker than 6 seconds.

*****

This does not mean I like the change to shields. I don't. But let's not get lazy communicating our dislike by pointing to a PvE nerf when it is difficult to see how a shorter duration is, at least from my perspective, more an inconvenience. If my - and ZoS's - viewpoint is incorrect or not appreciating something, then make a specific case to show how a 20 second shield is crucial for a sorcerer's performance in PvE.

My issue with the shield change is that it homogenizes what was the sorcerer's primary means of defense and in effect gives it to all classes and all builds (even stamina). I would have rather ZoS not done this and make it so each class and play-style has some different means of defending themselves, something that would lead to more dynamic and diverse gameplay. Plus this change does not address what most players had an issue with sorcerers: their ability to stack shields.

I would like to have seen sorcerers get an long duration ability akin to how wizards in folklore and other RPGs defending themselves that was more about subtlety and the "you can attack me but bad things will happen to you' variety. In fact, this is what Bound Armaments probably should have been, rather than a DPS toggle that, in fact, provides an imperceptible amount of defense.

I agree that it's more of an inconvenience than crippling. It might well make vMA more of a pain in the butt, or anything challenging that you decide to solo. It will just mean more button presses, stuff will still be possible. My issue is that I don't think it was necessary, seems like it wasn't given much thought; did sorcs need more obstacles to sustaining dps in pve? Not that dps is so important in solo content, but I believe my point is still valid. This change was more necessary for pvp than pve so it just seems like zos cba to differentiate the two.

I have an atleast decent score on my sorc. The shield with 6 instead of 20s duration will make that harder and a lot more uncomfortable than it already is. I have no idea if people don´t realize their shields are running out or if it´s just an assumption they don´t.
Shields with 20s run out all the time in the arena for me already. Effectively this will increase mana consumption on casting shields by 50 to 100%.

But what do i complain. I will finally mule my gear on NB and get an ok score with the next easy mode before the nerfhammer hits.

Edit: I really dislike the feeling of the PTS where in my opinion sorc has lost just about everything that gave the class an unique feeling. A magblade ranged build does everything a sorc does but better, except for the rare occasion of fleeing on an open field.

jknight201

I think just about everyone has weighed in on the subject, but I'll add my $0.02 in that the sorc changes are a huge negative for me as well.

- Sorcs are losing unique abilities that made it interesting to play a sorcerer
- Will make the sorc class much less survivable, esp. for less skilled players.
- Makes summons builds less viable because small increase in pet health will not counter loss of shields
- Since sorcs have no instant-cast self-heals, shields are all they have to stay alive in high damage situations
- Some high damage situations are not telegraphed, meaning you have to keep a ward up to stay alive
- Doesn't actually fix the shield stacking "problem" PVP players complain about

If it really is about class balancing, then where is the DPS increase to bring sorcs up to par with what is possible for other classes to sustain in single-target?

jknight201

Is there an intentional change being made to reduce spell crit values for sorcs or is this a bug?

On live, my sorc has a spell critical of 71%. Same character, gear, CP, etc. has 55% on the PTS. I've reported it as a bug in case it truly is, but was wondering if anyone else had noticed this.

STEVIL

Question for everyone but especially those who believe sorc dead without the shields as they were.

Two "what-ifs"

FIRST WHAT-IF
What if ALL shields transitioned after six seconds instead of goingvdown?
We Already have precedent in Blazing going BOOM after six and HEALING converting into health after six so what about making THAT the across the board shield feature?
Maybe Hardened launched MAJOR buff for physical resist and spell resist that lasted say 18 sec after six.
Maybe Empowered threw a free heal on you and your pets after six IF you have any pet active, bigger for two pets. Or it could proc each pets dpecial for free.
Maybe Annul removed one negative effect after six.

SECOND WHAT-IF
What-if after six seconds the shield became less effective allowing crits and 33% of the damage thru for 18sec? This might serve the need for enought to survive one shot as longer term buff.

I like the first since it builds on existing 6 sec shields and adds uniqueness to every shield.

Thoughts.

NativeJoe

@NativeJoe

lmao. db destroying what class?
cmon bro. 6sec shield isnt that bad[/quote]

okay u baited me lol

Handing shields to everyone makes sorcs less competitive, and less unique. This was our damage mitigation Technique, now everyone gets their stealth, reflects, and damage mitigation on top of it. Getting killed by a NB with 15k shields it pretty hard to swallow. : /

Dragon knights are now the best shielders in the game. They get wing flaps, and using bone shield also get to reflect physical damage as well. This on top of their natural and class damage mitigation techniques.

Proxy now hits true pet builds for 125%+ more damage with all the pets out, rendering the niche build useless. On top of that, this niche build didn't have room on its bar to shield stack at all... so giving everyone the ability to shield stack while maintaining their own damage mitigation techniques kills this style of game play. 6 second shields drastically effects pet survival, and constantly having to refresh their shields buries an already low dps build.Also DB removes the thermaturge bonus damage from curse...so an already low dps attack that was used by pet sorcs to squeeze a litte more dps out of the pets, has gotten nerfed even further.

The only sorcs that see this as a "buff" are the ones that where already triple shield stacking, and burning their magicka on quick and decisive attack stacking strategies. Sorcs that where used to keeping their opponents on the run had plenty of time for 20 second shields to run their course IE CC spam sorcs utilizing sets like winterborn and a master ice staff, or pet builds like mine which drowned my opponents in pets (5 of them) or similar builds like my Necropotence shield tanking build (which cannot rely on templar heals, but instead relies on it's own resource management to get by) 1 stun and with 9k stamina odds are that it will die do to the duration of the shields running out.

This change to shields doesn't effect the sorcs everyone hates in pvp, but it does effect niche builds to the greatest extent and in effect pushes the cookie cutter build on those that don't want to run it. In PVE running shields is now a Liability and with dps sets not adding to HP, one most likely would have to run a under powered pet in the place of them for the 8% more life to have any chance of surviving many mechanics.

But there is hope. Wrobel has promised to fix stamina sorcs up with something, and this undoubtedly will mean gutting whats left of our dps to hand stamina sorcs something...and sorcs will definitively be the lowest sustain dps, lowest burst dps, have the least originality, and least competitive style of game play as far as damage mitigation goes.

CP5

STEVIL wrote: »

Question for everyone but especially those who believe sorc dead without the shields as they were.

Two "what-ifs"

FIRST WHAT-IF
What if ALL shields transitioned after six seconds instead of goingvdown?
We Already have precedent in Blazing going BOOM after six and HEALING converting into health after six so what about making THAT the across the board shield feature?
Maybe Hardened launched MAJOR buff for physical resist and spell resist that lasted say 18 sec after six.
Maybe Empowered threw a free heal on you and your pets after six IF you have any pet active, bigger for two pets. Or it could proc each pets dpecial for free.
Maybe Annul removed one negative effect after six.

SECOND WHAT-IF
What-if after six seconds the shield became less effective allowing crits and 33% of the damage thru for 18sec? This might serve the need for enought to survive one shot as longer term buff.

I like the first since it builds on existing 6 sec shields and adds uniqueness to every shield.

Thoughts.

Think you bring up a good point. The sorcerer's ward is just that, a damage sponge. Blazing shield has damage, harness magicka refunds cost, igneous shield buffs healing, bone shield can reflect melee damage, healing ward heals, if the sorcerer's ward and its morphs were able to do something unique and helpful then this change wouldn't seem quite as harsh. But again, it is used just for the shield and with the duration hit all other shields look so much better.

RinaldoGandolphi

I'll give my official feedback for Sorcs in general, and it can be summed up in two words:

Sorcs Suck

Can't get any plainer. Every reason i had to play the class and what made me make the choice to play a Sorc at launch are gone. Sorcs have been nerfed more then any class in the game to the point the class hasn't remotely resembled what i wanted to play at all since 1.5 honestly.

Sorcs have had all 3 of their Ultimates gutted and they just keep nerfing Negate:

• Negate no longer heals from dispelling ground based effects
• Potatoes can now stand outside your negate bubble and cast ground based aoe inside of it and they are no longer dispeled.
• Molag kena conjures up ground based Lighting, but Negate magic can no longer dispel it despite that is its function.
• Storm Atronach no longer taunts
• Bolt Escape costs 50% more if casts in 4 secs
• Teleport Distance on Bolt Escape recuced
• Stacking 50% cost added
• Streak changed from a Disoreint to a stun(this means its gives CC immunity if not broken and is blockable, killing Sorc synergy i'll get to in a minute.
• Out of combat magic recovery halfed for 4 secs after casting Bolt Escape
• Ball of Lighting Duration reduced making it useless to cast against Crushing Shock spam (which is what i used it for)
• Daedric Curse and its explosion made blockable
• Mage's Wrath and its explosion made blockable
• Everyone can dodge a lighting strike in Tamriel(even though Talos the most powerful God can't, but the Vestige can...)
• Boundless Storm Speed Bonus cut by 10%
• Unpurgable snares added to every gap closer to catch Sorcs everytime according to a certain dev
• Damage shield values reduced twice in Cyrodiil in less then a year
• Cost reduction from Expert Mage taken away
• Streak No longer builds ultimate
• Streak damage nerfed
• Bolt Escape nerfed 7 times
• Power Overload damage reduced from 15% to 6%
• Reduced the speed Overload Light Attacks can be fired
  

Why would i play this class? it does NOTHING the class did in April of 2014 when i made it...the class flat out sucks....everything that made the class unique and fun was gutted and in return we were given some crappy shield and told to cast Mines and spam Overload....and play some turret garbage.

Its why shortly after 1.6 i rolled other classes...i'll gladly go back to playing my Sorc, when they actually make the class the fun class it was to play at launch...and that fun class was very squishy but very mobile, this absolute garbage we got foisted don us now isn't Sorc at all and anyone who never played the early versions just doesn't understand how fun and squishy it actually was....if you didn't play Sorc prior to 1.3 you ahve no idea what you have lost and it wasn't about being OP either...they could have adjusted the class without turning it into a turret class....

AhPook_Is_Here

I don't mind the nerf that much. It will mostly be rougher in PVP, as even though you recast a lot when engaged, as a sorc with a low hp pool you also depend on your shields to avoid unknown openers, when traveling or preparing to engage.

As for tanking, even with the shield nerf, I think sorc tanking will be easier if anything. The question is if you are going to go 5 light 2 heavy or 5 heavy 2 light. You will have to rebuild armor regardless to get your traits right. For tanking, a no-brainer fix might be to un-nerf surge, if the cooldown was gone and it triggered off of dots again like splash/flood and presence it would give sorcs more staying power. Should be fine in pvp now given the impenetrable meta still going strong. Maybe make the STA version return health and STA? Encase could use improvements, nothing drastic, maybe a synergy? Finally I am not impressed with the changes to negate, and still don't think i will find much use for it beyond tanking.

Oh, one other thing, since you removed the graphic effect from bound armaments can we get the same treatment for lightning form? With the shield nerfs all sorcs are going to be running this constantly in cyrodiil now so it would be nice to not be the one class that everyone knows from a mile away as a sorc. I know a lot of us won't be surprising people when they see our names but just sayin!

potirondb16_ESO

Hi @Wrobel,

Did notice your team is gonna look at sorcerer stam and magika, I did notice a lot of post (mine included) who talked about possible solution and I'm wondering if Sorcerer isn't one of those class who doubble dip too much in what non-class skill have to offert.

Example:

- Conversion stuff is quite the same as the mage guild one except this one allow stamina user to use it
- Ward, now becoming alike to both non-class shield except it does shield pet
- Encase and rune prison (kind of alike)


I am not a pet lover and I do would like them gone but here's a suggestion to modify stuff without affecting people who liked pet. Matriach (Healing morph) instead of Healing people why not shield them (and herself) this way we can remove ward from the sorc arsenal and replace it by Something else.

Shield Stacking sorc are going to be pet one, also make the matriach easier to supervise

Remove conversion and make it a morph of the Clanfear one regen magika and one regen stamina, that gives a new spot for a spamable aoe maybe.

The matriach that deal domage (and I know it's a good part of our dps in trial so think ... kind of sad about saying this) can do the encase.

There could also be a passive which make activating a Daedric summoning skill heal your pet and you for x (instead of being on dark magic, also giving more place to Something new in dark magic)

So I do hope you liked it, theese are really solution for expending sorcerer arsenal without cutting them out of valuable ability. Curse could also be move Inside the dark magic tree and create an heal for the daedric summoning tree for self and pet maybe...

Lucky28

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Seriously? Sorcs shields are even more OP now with the extra psychical damage mitigation from shield stacking the new DB annulment buff. I am sure the Sorcs 40k magicka from not having to run the impenetrable trait in PvP (due to shields not being able to be crittable; which is ridiculously OP) will be fine with the extra shield recasts. And don't even get me started on PvE; that is what healers are for. Besides, how many sorcs while engaged in combat in PvP only reapply shields every 6+ seconds LOL... If you are answered you do, then your class is OP. @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn

Yes, nerf skills to the ground because of PvP and screw PvE. It sucks that ZoS shares your opinion on how to balance this game

Sorc shields should of been nerfed along time ago. It is the most OP and unbalanced skill in the game.

You really are funny... LOL Button for you again.

You know what is worse about guys like this coming to this forum give their 'opinion'? They have no idea what they are saying... This is a post about feedback... Feedback implies you actually play a sorcerer and have an idea of how the class work. You, mr @Justice31st never played a sorcerer and have no idea how our skills work, likely why you can't kill us in PvP... You are just not good at the game or smart enough to research your *** as you clearly haven't before coming here to give your 'opinion'...

Anyway, yes, Ward is a powerful spell... In PvP, if you don't know how to go around it, it sure can be frustrating, then again, reflective scales and many other skills from the more powerful classes are just as frustrating if not more... Alas, Zenimax hates sorcerers, always have, so we get the shaft again.

As for in PvE, well, we are in an even worse situation as this nerf heavily affects pretty much every play style, but we were given no compensation at all for the loss. It is amazing balancing really.

First off, you don't know me, I don't know you and you have never played against me. I have a v16 Sorcerer as well FYI. Also you do not know my skill level and if I can kill sorcerers or not. The fact that you tried to get your point across by insulting a stranger and tried to be-little me over my opinion (about a skill needing to be nerfed) just shows how immature and "not smart enough" you really are. So give yourself the LOL button, you deserve it. Don't be mad that your class is finally getting its turn for a nerf.

sorry but i doubt you play a sorc. from your comments here and in threads relating you've demonstrated you know nothing about the class.

dodgehopper_ESO

I'm actually sad to see Bound Armor/Armaments gone. It would have been cooler if it were not a toggle, and just a click skill. Its a long standing traditional skill in the series, and I hate seeing it summarily removed like this.

LordSidious

Adjusting Hardened Ward to six seconds is nothing short of pure ignorance for the actual issues in this game.

Grao

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm actually sad to see Bound Armor/Armaments gone. It would have been cooler if it were not a toggle, and just a click skill. Its a long standing traditional skill in the series, and I hate seeing it summarily removed like this.

What are you talking about? The skill isn't getting removed, they are just removing the visual effects...

Edit: I do agree it would be nice to have it not be a toggle though, but unfortunately as this skill and inner light both affect your resource pool and are not easily dispelled, I doubt they will be made non toggles.

Grao

Lucky28 wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Seriously? Sorcs shields are even more OP now with the extra psychical damage mitigation from shield stacking the new DB annulment buff. I am sure the Sorcs 40k magicka from not having to run the impenetrable trait in PvP (due to shields not being able to be crittable; which is ridiculously OP) will be fine with the extra shield recasts. And don't even get me started on PvE; that is what healers are for. Besides, how many sorcs while engaged in combat in PvP only reapply shields every 6+ seconds LOL... If you are answered you do, then your class is OP. @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn

Yes, nerf skills to the ground because of PvP and screw PvE. It sucks that ZoS shares your opinion on how to balance this game

Sorc shields should of been nerfed along time ago. It is the most OP and unbalanced skill in the game.

You really are funny... LOL Button for you again.

You know what is worse about guys like this coming to this forum give their 'opinion'? They have no idea what they are saying... This is a post about feedback... Feedback implies you actually play a sorcerer and have an idea of how the class work. You, mr @Justice31st never played a sorcerer and have no idea how our skills work, likely why you can't kill us in PvP... You are just not good at the game or smart enough to research your *** as you clearly haven't before coming here to give your 'opinion'...

Anyway, yes, Ward is a powerful spell... In PvP, if you don't know how to go around it, it sure can be frustrating, then again, reflective scales and many other skills from the more powerful classes are just as frustrating if not more... Alas, Zenimax hates sorcerers, always have, so we get the shaft again.

As for in PvE, well, we are in an even worse situation as this nerf heavily affects pretty much every play style, but we were given no compensation at all for the loss. It is amazing balancing really.

First off, you don't know me, I don't know you and you have never played against me. I have a v16 Sorcerer as well FYI. Also you do not know my skill level and if I can kill sorcerers or not. The fact that you tried to get your point across by insulting a stranger and tried to be-little me over my opinion (about a skill needing to be nerfed) just shows how immature and "not smart enough" you really are. So give yourself the LOL button, you deserve it. Don't be mad that your class is finally getting its turn for a nerf.

sorry but i doubt you play a sorc. from your comments here and in threads relating you've demonstrated you know nothing about the class.

Couldn't agree more, but I can't say much to that guy, mods already started with the snip snipping. XD

dodgehopper_ESO

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I'll give my official feedback for Sorcs in general, and it can be summed up in two words:

Sorcs Suck

Can't get any plainer. Every reason i had to play the class and what made me make the choice to play a Sorc at launch are gone. Sorcs have been nerfed more then any class in the game to the point the class hasn't remotely resembled what i wanted to play at all since 1.5 honestly.

Sorcs have had all 3 of their Ultimates gutted and they just keep nerfing Negate:

• Negate no longer heals from dispelling ground based effects
• Potatoes can now stand outside your negate bubble and cast ground based aoe inside of it and they are no longer dispeled.
• Molag kena conjures up ground based Lighting, but Negate magic can no longer dispel it despite that is its function.
• Storm Atronach no longer taunts
• Bolt Escape costs 50% more if casts in 4 secs
• Teleport Distance on Bolt Escape recuced
• Stacking 50% cost added
• Streak changed from a Disoreint to a stun(this means its gives CC immunity if not broken and is blockable, killing Sorc synergy i'll get to in a minute.
• Out of combat magic recovery halfed for 4 secs after casting Bolt Escape
• Ball of Lighting Duration reduced making it useless to cast against Crushing Shock spam (which is what i used it for)
• Daedric Curse and its explosion made blockable
• Mage's Wrath and its explosion made blockable
• Everyone can dodge a lighting strike in Tamriel(even though Talos the most powerful God can't, but the Vestige can...)
• Boundless Storm Speed Bonus cut by 10%
• Unpurgable snares added to every gap closer to catch Sorcs everytime according to a certain dev
• Damage shield values reduced twice in Cyrodiil in less then a year
• Cost reduction from Expert Mage taken away
• Streak No longer builds ultimate
• Streak damage nerfed
• Bolt Escape nerfed 7 times
• Power Overload damage reduced from 15% to 6%
• Reduced the speed Overload Light Attacks can be fired
  

Why would i play this class? it does NOTHING the class did in April of 2014 when i made it...the class flat out sucks....everything that made the class unique and fun was gutted and in return we were given some crappy shield and told to cast Mines and spam Overload....and play some turret garbage.

Its why shortly after 1.6 i rolled other classes...i'll gladly go back to playing my Sorc, when they actually make the class the fun class it was to play at launch...and that fun class was very squishy but very mobile, this absolute garbage we got foisted don us now isn't Sorc at all and anyone who never played the early versions just doesn't understand how fun and squishy it actually was....if you didn't play Sorc prior to 1.3 you ahve no idea what you have lost and it wasn't about being OP either...they could have adjusted the class without turning it into a turret class....

I know this is a Sorcerer thread, but the complaint list reminds me of the kinds of things Templars say. The only hope here is that they'll find positive ways to bring it back, and I think they're going to have to do it with something like exchange or surge (which would be nice anyway thematically). Don't forget you still have boundless storm, and while the speed on it is mildly nerfed, its still pretty awesome, one of the best skills sorcs have (stam or magic). I'm also still a fan of bolt escape to some extent as well, though the way certain mitigation skills are adjusted doesn't seem to have parity, I'll agree there.

NativeJoe

Currently we are scheduled for demolition Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own... it is important that we find our new place.And believe me we need suggestions Wobel has vowed to fix stamina sorc passives and give them some more class abilities which makes me believe Magicka sorc is going to get another major wack with the nerf hammer.New Sorc place:

Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new idenity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisable/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

Grao

Alright, since the discussion is turning a little towards What should benefit Stamina Builds and what should benefit Magika builds I think I should write down what I thought the game originally intended.

For me Stamina builds were supposed to heavily rely on weapon skills for their damage abilities and the use class skills, magika skills to buff their damage damage, survivability and utility. Thus the damage of Stamina based weapons would be very high.

On the other hand, magika users would rely mainly in class skills for their general build and utilize weapon skills for buffs and debuffs, heals, etc.

Stamina build would then vary depending on your weapon combination choices and how those choices interacted with the few stamina class abilities you have access to and the magika skills you are able to maintain in your bar, not to mention class passives.

Magika builds would similarly vary according to their use of class skills being supported by magika weapon skills, maintaining their stamina pool for blocking and running.

For me that is how it was supposed to be... Unfortunately it isn't like that. First weapons have no ultimates which was always very odd to me as weapons are built similarly in number of skills etc to class trees. They should have ultimates of their own that were related to the weapon. Having Ultimates for weapons would add tremendous diversity to builds.

Second, the weapon skills general DPS never seemed to keep up with Magika DPS (Except when Bows were ridiculous and that got nerfed very fast). How should the DPS pyramid be then? Well, melee DPS is supposed to be slightly more powerful than ranged DPS because melee DPS is under greater risk by being close to the enemy. At the same time magika DPS should be slightly higher than Stamina DPS because the armor used by stamina builds is slightly more powerful than the armor provided by light armor. That, I think, was supposed to be the balance. so:

Bow DPS < Melee Stamina DPS = Magika Ranged DPS < Melee Magika DPS

And every class DPS in the end should be reasonably in pair with each other within each of those categories. That isn't really the case and it has never been...

Now, I can't speak for the other classes for I haven't played them long enough, I can speak for sorcerers though as I played one since before the game was released.

For the magika sorcerers, our first great issue is the lack of direct hit, instant cast, class skill. Other classes have them and we don't (Don't tell me Crystal Frags is it, it isn't). Since we don't have that we are forced to rely on a weapon skill which supports only the ranged DPS style. Now, if the class had a single target, magika based skill, one of its morphs could be ranged and another could be melee, increasing play style variety.

On the other hand stamina sorcerers lack abilities and passives that interact well with weapon skills.

Bound Armaments is actually a pretty good skill, the increase of the stamina pool is a good DPS increase and I guess the increase of damage from heavy attacks does increase DPS as well, even if not significantly.

Unfortunately the summoning tree suffers with a good number of passives that aren't at all useful either for stamina or magika builds. Those passives focus too heavily on pets completely forgetting that only three out of the 6 skills in the three are actually pets.

And then the Dark Magic Tree. That ZoS made Dark Conversion into the skill with a stamina morph is an insult... I am sorry, but there is no other way to put it. That skill is useless for magika users and stamina users alike. I don't think even PvPers use it because usually standing still is bad at any time...

Why is it that Crystal Shard doesn't have a stamina based morph? Maybe make it a proc skill like Crystal Fragments that increases the damage of your next light attack by a great amount? Call it Crystal blade or whatever.

As for the passives, I have no issue with those, but it would be interesting if Exploitation could grant Weapon Crit as well.

Next we have the Storm calling tree and I will go straight to Critical Surge. It is actually a great skill, if you fix the bugs where it isn't procing properly. It would also be great if it wasn't so magika taxing. As for Thundering presence, all and all it is a nice skill and I do love the changes made to it this newest patch. Seems pretty interesting.

As for the passives, they are mostly alright, except that Expert Mage is definitely weaker for Stamina sorcerers...

Now, I realize that there are few stamina morphs to class skills and that few passives actually help, but to those that think that is a huge issue, I remind you that you have three weapon choices to create build diversity, magika DPS has one real weapon choice. Yes, we use dual wield to boost our spell damage, but the tree has one passive that is useful and nothing else and we only do this because somehow dual wield gives more spell power than a staff, which makes no sense at all...

Alas, as I was saying, we have one real weapon choice, destro staff and sorcerers are forced to have a destro staff none of our builds will ever work without Force Shock. So... Sorcerer Magika build is limited by the weapons we can choose and Sorcerer stamina build is limited by the class skills you can actually use in your build.

For stamina build we have to focus on tweaking which skills have stam morphs... Dark Conversion probaly shouldn't be it... It is a useless skill.

For Magika build, we need an efficient single target ranged / melee spell in the dark magic tree.

Give stamina builds a crystal shard morph and give magika sorcs a new spell to replace dark conversion... Direct damage, single target, one melee morph, one ranged morph, the melee morph slightly higher DPS, the ranged morph providing maybe a slight bonus to the sustain provided by blood magic.

cpuScientist

Grao wrote: »

Alright, since the discussion is turning a little towards What should benefit Stamina Builds and what should benefit Magika builds I think I should write down what I thought the game originally intended.

For me Stamina builds were supposed to heavily rely on weapon skills for their damage abilities and the use class skills, magika skills to buff their damage damage, survivability and utility. Thus the damage of Stamina based weapons would be very high.

On the other hand, magika users would rely mainly in class skills for their general build and utilize weapon skills for buffs and debuffs, heals, etc.

Stamina build would then vary depending on your weapon combination choices and how those choices interacted with the few stamina class abilities you have access to and the magika skills you are able to maintain in your bar, not to mention class passives.

Magika builds would similarly vary according to their use of class skills being supported by magika weapon skills, maintaining their stamina pool for blocking and running.

For me that is how it was supposed to be... Unfortunately it isn't like that. First weapons have no ultimates which was always very odd to me as weapons are built similarly in number of skills etc to class trees. They should have ultimates of their own that were related to the weapon. Having Ultimates for weapons would add tremendous diversity to builds.

Second, the weapon skills general DPS never seemed to keep up with Magika DPS (Except when Bows were ridiculous and that got nerfed very fast). How should the DPS pyramid be then? Well, melee DPS is supposed to be slightly more powerful than ranged DPS because melee DPS is under greater risk by being close to the enemy. At the same time magika DPS should be slightly higher than Stamina DPS because the armor used by stamina builds is slightly more powerful than the armor provided by light armor. That, I think, was supposed to be the balance. so:

Bow DPS < Melee Stamina DPS = Magika Ranged DPS < Melee Magika DPS

And every class DPS in the end should be reasonably in pair with each other within each of those categories. That isn't really the case and it has never been...

Now, I can't speak for the other classes for I haven't played them long enough, I can speak for sorcerers though as I played one since before the game was released.

For the magika sorcerers, our first great issue is the lack of direct hit, instant cast, class skill. Other classes have them and we don't (Don't tell me Crystal Frags is it, it isn't). Since we don't have that we are forced to rely on a weapon skill which supports only the ranged DPS style. Now, if the class had a single target, magika based skill, one of its morphs could be ranged and another could be melee, increasing play style variety.

On the other hand stamina sorcerers lack abilities and passives that interact well with weapon skills.

Bound Armaments is actually a pretty good skill, the increase of the stamina pool is a good DPS increase and I guess the increase of damage from heavy attacks does increase DPS as well, even if not significantly.

Unfortunately the summoning tree suffers with a good number of passives that aren't at all useful either for stamina or magika builds. Those passives focus too heavily on pets completely forgetting that only three out of the 6 skills in the three are actually pets.

And then the Dark Magic Tree. That ZoS made Dark Conversion into the skill with a stamina morph is an insult... I am sorry, but there is no other way to put it. That skill is useless for magika users and stamina users alike. I don't think even PvPers use it because usually standing still is bad at any time...

Why is it that Crystal Shard doesn't have a stamina based morph? Maybe make it a proc skill like Crystal Fragments that increases the damage of your next light attack by a great amount? Call it Crystal blade or whatever.

As for the passives, I have no issue with those, but it would be interesting if Exploitation could grant Weapon Crit as well.

Next we have the Storm calling tree and I will go straight to Critical Surge. It is actually a great skill, if you fix the bugs where it isn't procing properly. It would also be great if it wasn't so magika taxing. As for Thundering presence, all and all it is a nice skill and I do love the changes made to it this newest patch. Seems pretty interesting.

As for the passives, they are mostly alright, except that Expert Mage is definitely weaker for Stamina sorcerers...

Now, I realize that there are few stamina morphs to class skills and that few passives actually help, but to those that think that is a huge issue, I remind you that you have three weapon choices to create build diversity, magika DPS has one real weapon choice. Yes, we use dual wield to boost our spell damage, but the tree has one passive that is useful and nothing else and we only do this because somehow dual wield gives more spell power than a staff, which makes no sense at all...

Alas, as I was saying, we have one real weapon choice, destro staff and sorcerers are forced to have a destro staff none of our builds will ever work without Force Shock. So... Sorcerer Magika build is limited by the weapons we can choose and Sorcerer stamina build is limited by the class skills you can actually use in your build.

For stamina build we have to focus on tweaking which skills have stam morphs... Dark Conversion probaly shouldn't be it... It is a useless skill.

For Magika build, we need an efficient single target ranged / melee spell in the dark magic tree.

Give stamina builds a crystal shard morph and give magika sorcs a new spell to replace dark conversion... Direct damage, single target, one melee morph, one ranged morph, the melee morph slightly higher DPS, the ranged morph providing maybe a slight bonus to the sustain provided by blood magic.

Everything he said needs to be done. ZOS this is your game plan follow it to the letter

And also make pets non toggles that are desummoned on death and to use their skill you have to swap to the bar with the skill obviously, and the twilight tormentor acts more like inferno or whatever it is for DK that shoots out a fireball but instead make it a mini frag. Boom done. Sorc is good and fine. Everyone happy!

dodgehopper_ESO

Grao wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm actually sad to see Bound Armor/Armaments gone. It would have been cooler if it were not a toggle, and just a click skill. Its a long standing traditional skill in the series, and I hate seeing it summarily removed like this.

What are you talking about? The skill isn't getting removed, they are just removing the visual effects...

Edit: I do agree it would be nice to have it not be a toggle though, but unfortunately as this skill and inner light both affect your resource pool and are not easily dispelled, I doubt they will be made non toggles.

I meant that I kind of like the display of the power itself as an overlay. That's what bound armor is supposed to be, magical armor summoned from oblivion matter. It should probably have traditional purple smokey-swirlies, but other than that, I liked it for what it was. I never hear people complaining that boundless lightning gets in the way of viewing their character. If the skill were a clicky, I think it would resolve a lot of the issues, because esthetically players could still see their TRUE armor underneath the conjured stuff. That's how I feel about it anyways.

Grao

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm actually sad to see Bound Armor/Armaments gone. It would have been cooler if it were not a toggle, and just a click skill. Its a long standing traditional skill in the series, and I hate seeing it summarily removed like this.

What are you talking about? The skill isn't getting removed, they are just removing the visual effects...

Edit: I do agree it would be nice to have it not be a toggle though, but unfortunately as this skill and inner light both affect your resource pool and are not easily dispelled, I doubt they will be made non toggles.

I meant that I kind of like the display of the power itself as an overlay. That's what bound armor is supposed to be, magical armor summoned from oblivion matter. It should probably have traditional purple smokey-swirlies, but other than that, I liked it for what it was. I never hear people complaining that boundless lightning gets in the way of viewing their character. If the skill were a clicky, I think it would resolve a lot of the issues, because esthetically players could still see their TRUE armor underneath the conjured stuff. That's how I feel about it anyways.

Oh, yes. I agree, though I think Bound armor should create a ghostly chest plate, Bound Aegis should create a gohstly shield and Bound Armaments should create an overlay on your equipped weapon.

Grao

cpuScientist wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Alright, since the discussion is turning a little towards What should benefit Stamina Builds and what should benefit Magika builds I think I should write down what I thought the game originally intended.

For me Stamina builds were supposed to heavily rely on weapon skills for their damage abilities and the use class skills, magika skills to buff their damage damage, survivability and utility. Thus the damage of Stamina based weapons would be very high.

On the other hand, magika users would rely mainly in class skills for their general build and utilize weapon skills for buffs and debuffs, heals, etc.

Stamina build would then vary depending on your weapon combination choices and how those choices interacted with the few stamina class abilities you have access to and the magika skills you are able to maintain in your bar, not to mention class passives.

Magika builds would similarly vary according to their use of class skills being supported by magika weapon skills, maintaining their stamina pool for blocking and running.

For me that is how it was supposed to be... Unfortunately it isn't like that. First weapons have no ultimates which was always very odd to me as weapons are built similarly in number of skills etc to class trees. They should have ultimates of their own that were related to the weapon. Having Ultimates for weapons would add tremendous diversity to builds.

Second, the weapon skills general DPS never seemed to keep up with Magika DPS (Except when Bows were ridiculous and that got nerfed very fast). How should the DPS pyramid be then? Well, melee DPS is supposed to be slightly more powerful than ranged DPS because melee DPS is under greater risk by being close to the enemy. At the same time magika DPS should be slightly higher than Stamina DPS because the armor used by stamina builds is slightly more powerful than the armor provided by light armor. That, I think, was supposed to be the balance. so:

Bow DPS < Melee Stamina DPS = Magika Ranged DPS < Melee Magika DPS

And every class DPS in the end should be reasonably in pair with each other within each of those categories. That isn't really the case and it has never been...

Now, I can't speak for the other classes for I haven't played them long enough, I can speak for sorcerers though as I played one since before the game was released.

For the magika sorcerers, our first great issue is the lack of direct hit, instant cast, class skill. Other classes have them and we don't (Don't tell me Crystal Frags is it, it isn't). Since we don't have that we are forced to rely on a weapon skill which supports only the ranged DPS style. Now, if the class had a single target, magika based skill, one of its morphs could be ranged and another could be melee, increasing play style variety.

On the other hand stamina sorcerers lack abilities and passives that interact well with weapon skills.

Bound Armaments is actually a pretty good skill, the increase of the stamina pool is a good DPS increase and I guess the increase of damage from heavy attacks does increase DPS as well, even if not significantly.

Unfortunately the summoning tree suffers with a good number of passives that aren't at all useful either for stamina or magika builds. Those passives focus too heavily on pets completely forgetting that only three out of the 6 skills in the three are actually pets.

And then the Dark Magic Tree. That ZoS made Dark Conversion into the skill with a stamina morph is an insult... I am sorry, but there is no other way to put it. That skill is useless for magika users and stamina users alike. I don't think even PvPers use it because usually standing still is bad at any time...

Why is it that Crystal Shard doesn't have a stamina based morph? Maybe make it a proc skill like Crystal Fragments that increases the damage of your next light attack by a great amount? Call it Crystal blade or whatever.

As for the passives, I have no issue with those, but it would be interesting if Exploitation could grant Weapon Crit as well.

Next we have the Storm calling tree and I will go straight to Critical Surge. It is actually a great skill, if you fix the bugs where it isn't procing properly. It would also be great if it wasn't so magika taxing. As for Thundering presence, all and all it is a nice skill and I do love the changes made to it this newest patch. Seems pretty interesting.

As for the passives, they are mostly alright, except that Expert Mage is definitely weaker for Stamina sorcerers...

Now, I realize that there are few stamina morphs to class skills and that few passives actually help, but to those that think that is a huge issue, I remind you that you have three weapon choices to create build diversity, magika DPS has one real weapon choice. Yes, we use dual wield to boost our spell damage, but the tree has one passive that is useful and nothing else and we only do this because somehow dual wield gives more spell power than a staff, which makes no sense at all...

Alas, as I was saying, we have one real weapon choice, destro staff and sorcerers are forced to have a destro staff none of our builds will ever work without Force Shock. So... Sorcerer Magika build is limited by the weapons we can choose and Sorcerer stamina build is limited by the class skills you can actually use in your build.

For stamina build we have to focus on tweaking which skills have stam morphs... Dark Conversion probaly shouldn't be it... It is a useless skill.

For Magika build, we need an efficient single target ranged / melee spell in the dark magic tree.

Give stamina builds a crystal shard morph and give magika sorcs a new spell to replace dark conversion... Direct damage, single target, one melee morph, one ranged morph, the melee morph slightly higher DPS, the ranged morph providing maybe a slight bonus to the sustain provided by blood magic.

Everything he said needs to be done. ZOS this is your game plan follow it to the letter

And also make pets non toggles that are desummoned on death and to use their skill you have to swap to the bar with the skill obviously, and the twilight tormentor acts more like inferno or whatever it is for DK that shoots out a fireball but instead make it a mini frag. Boom done. Sorc is good and fine. Everyone happy!

Yeah, I didn't get into pets on this post as I discussed them extensively before. I have to say though, that the fact the pets actually do have active skills that you can control does compensate a little for the fact they are toggles. I haven't actually tested numbers my self, but if the damage the pet abilities do equates to the damage done by other AoEs / Single Target Damage, I think it sounds pretty good. Same for the pet's heal. If anything, I would remove the heal from the clannfear as lore-wise clannfears don't heal. I think the Clannfear should have a on command taunt. That... That would be amazing.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

.

Grao wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Alright, since the discussion is turning a little towards What should benefit Stamina Builds and what should benefit Magika builds I think I should write down what I thought the game originally intended.

For me Stamina builds were supposed to heavily rely on weapon skills for their damage abilities and the use class skills, magika skills to buff their damage damage, survivability and utility. Thus the damage of Stamina based weapons would be very high.

On the other hand, magika users would rely mainly in class skills for their general build and utilize weapon skills for buffs and debuffs, heals, etc.

Stamina build would then vary depending on your weapon combination choices and how those choices interacted with the few stamina class abilities you have access to and the magika skills you are able to maintain in your bar, not to mention class passives.

Magika builds would similarly vary according to their use of class skills being supported by magika weapon skills, maintaining their stamina pool for blocking and running.

For me that is how it was supposed to be... Unfortunately it isn't like that. First weapons have no ultimates which was always very odd to me as weapons are built similarly in number of skills etc to class trees. They should have ultimates of their own that were related to the weapon. Having Ultimates for weapons would add tremendous diversity to builds.

Second, the weapon skills general DPS never seemed to keep up with Magika DPS (Except when Bows were ridiculous and that got nerfed very fast). How should the DPS pyramid be then? Well, melee DPS is supposed to be slightly more powerful than ranged DPS because melee DPS is under greater risk by being close to the enemy. At the same time magika DPS should be slightly higher than Stamina DPS because the armor used by stamina builds is slightly more powerful than the armor provided by light armor. That, I think, was supposed to be the balance. so:

Bow DPS < Melee Stamina DPS = Magika Ranged DPS < Melee Magika DPS

And every class DPS in the end should be reasonably in pair with each other within each of those categories. That isn't really the case and it has never been...

Now, I can't speak for the other classes for I haven't played them long enough, I can speak for sorcerers though as I played one since before the game was released.

For the magika sorcerers, our first great issue is the lack of direct hit, instant cast, class skill. Other classes have them and we don't (Don't tell me Crystal Frags is it, it isn't). Since we don't have that we are forced to rely on a weapon skill which supports only the ranged DPS style. Now, if the class had a single target, magika based skill, one of its morphs could be ranged and another could be melee, increasing play style variety.

On the other hand stamina sorcerers lack abilities and passives that interact well with weapon skills.

Bound Armaments is actually a pretty good skill, the increase of the stamina pool is a good DPS increase and I guess the increase of damage from heavy attacks does increase DPS as well, even if not significantly.

Unfortunately the summoning tree suffers with a good number of passives that aren't at all useful either for stamina or magika builds. Those passives focus too heavily on pets completely forgetting that only three out of the 6 skills in the three are actually pets.

And then the Dark Magic Tree. That ZoS made Dark Conversion into the skill with a stamina morph is an insult... I am sorry, but there is no other way to put it. That skill is useless for magika users and stamina users alike. I don't think even PvPers use it because usually standing still is bad at any time...

Why is it that Crystal Shard doesn't have a stamina based morph? Maybe make it a proc skill like Crystal Fragments that increases the damage of your next light attack by a great amount? Call it Crystal blade or whatever.

As for the passives, I have no issue with those, but it would be interesting if Exploitation could grant Weapon Crit as well.

Next we have the Storm calling tree and I will go straight to Critical Surge. It is actually a great skill, if you fix the bugs where it isn't procing properly. It would also be great if it wasn't so magika taxing. As for Thundering presence, all and all it is a nice skill and I do love the changes made to it this newest patch. Seems pretty interesting.

As for the passives, they are mostly alright, except that Expert Mage is definitely weaker for Stamina sorcerers...

Now, I realize that there are few stamina morphs to class skills and that few passives actually help, but to those that think that is a huge issue, I remind you that you have three weapon choices to create build diversity, magika DPS has one real weapon choice. Yes, we use dual wield to boost our spell damage, but the tree has one passive that is useful and nothing else and we only do this because somehow dual wield gives more spell power than a staff, which makes no sense at all...

Alas, as I was saying, we have one real weapon choice, destro staff and sorcerers are forced to have a destro staff none of our builds will ever work without Force Shock. So... Sorcerer Magika build is limited by the weapons we can choose and Sorcerer stamina build is limited by the class skills you can actually use in your build.

For stamina build we have to focus on tweaking which skills have stam morphs... Dark Conversion probaly shouldn't be it... It is a useless skill.

For Magika build, we need an efficient single target ranged / melee spell in the dark magic tree.

Give stamina builds a crystal shard morph and give magika sorcs a new spell to replace dark conversion... Direct damage, single target, one melee morph, one ranged morph, the melee morph slightly higher DPS, the ranged morph providing maybe a slight bonus to the sustain provided by blood magic.

Everything he said needs to be done. ZOS this is your game plan follow it to the letter

And also make pets non toggles that are desummoned on death and to use their skill you have to swap to the bar with the skill obviously, and the twilight tormentor acts more like inferno or whatever it is for DK that shoots out a fireball but instead make it a mini frag. Boom done. Sorc is good and fine. Everyone happy!

Yeah, I didn't get into pets on this post as I discussed them extensively before. I have to say though, that the fact the pets actually do have active skills that you can control does compensate a little for the fact they are toggles. I haven't actually tested numbers my self, but if the damage the pet abilities do equates to the damage done by other AoEs / Single Target Damage, I think it sounds pretty good. Same for the pet's heal. If anything, I would remove the heal from the clannfear as lore-wise clannfears don't heal. I think the Clannfear should have a on command taunt. That... That would be amazing.

a on command AoE Taunt.....gods i would actually pay for that, i mean, straight up just throw my money at zos