Update 44 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
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• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 2, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – September 30, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 2, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 2, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
We will be performing maintenance for patch 10.2.2 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC).
Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers
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jknight201✭✭✭Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).
Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.
You have actually played this game before, right? Because from your comment - it sounds like you haven't.
In any case you're just flat-out wrong. There are many cases where sorcs need a damage shield just to survive, and many more where they need it to avoid being a constant drain on the healer's resources. When you're in a group with no healer? Or a bad one? Or the healer goes down and the dps need to self-sustain long enough to rez the healer? Or you want to fight, oh I don't know, maybe more than one mob at a time? Or fighting the Planar Inhibitor where the healer can't constantly heal? Then what - we're still a bad sorc if we need a damage shield?4 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jknight201 wrote: »Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).
Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.
You have actually played this game before, right? Because from your comment - it sounds like you haven't.
In any case you're just flat-out wrong. There are many cases where sorcs need a damage shield just to survive, and many more where they need it to avoid being a constant drain on the healer's resources. When you're in a group with no healer? Or a bad one? Or the healer goes down and the dps need to self-sustain long enough to rez the healer? Or you want to fight, oh I don't know, maybe more than one mob at a time? Or fighting the Planar Inhibitor where the healer can't constantly heal? Then what - we're still a bad sorc if we need a damage shield?
It's clear he plays with top end raid groups where everyone is a long time veteran and knows their role precisely. He's not entirely wrong. But he comes off that his guild is so good that he can play with one hand tied behind his back, so you should too! That's not right either, just shut up or help us get our damn shields back.
As for DPS abilities, our best PVP skill (frags) has a long, easily interruptible cast. It's reflectable, dodge able, and block able. It has a 30% proc rate for an instant shot that never activates when you need it, and it hits for a whopping 6K on the rare occasion that it connects and manages to knock someone down. Name me one other class that puts up with this bull****!
Curse is nice, but when they see themselves glowing purple, most people hold block and just mitigate it.
Mages wrath is a terrible spam ability, let's not get into destro staff alternatives.
Something here needs to be fixed, because the whole class has something wrong with it. Start with some of the class passives, and look into fixing destro staff damage versus duel wield if we can't get a class spam ability. Put hardened ward back to 15-20 seconds, and do something for the pet people defenses.Edited by Minalan on May 5, 2016 6:21PM8 -
GriM_728✭✭✭http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262908/idea-to-possibly-improve-sorcerer-dps/p1
@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
@ZOS_Finn
Please read this thread. Please
*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin.
So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).
Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.
May I please have what you are smoking?1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262908/idea-to-possibly-improve-sorcerer-dps/p1
@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
@ZOS_Finn
Please read this thread. Please*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).
Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.
May I please have what you are smoking?
Elitist used taunt on the forums.
It´s very effective.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 5010 -
illuminousflux✭✭✭I understand the desire to have a magicka based tank, using hardened ward and all that, I've done it myself before. But it really is just so much easier to have a stamina based tank. Stam sorcs can tank just fine without using any wards or pets. I tank mine with about 30k health and 33k stamina with 15k magicka and capped spell and physical resistance, and he does great.0 -
SonOfSune✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.5 -
Dyride✭✭✭✭✭Sorcs could use an extra 2-3k steady dps IMO but aren't in nearly as bad a position as some people are claiming besides Stam sorc. Mainly this could come from a small boost to Lightning Flood so that it doesn't effect burst dps in PVP. Maybe this is why they added damage to Negate.
I wish Negate morphs still had the other secondary effects. Damage Reduction+DoT for one and Heal+Major Buffs for other, which would make them really useful in Trial scenarios IMO.
I think the shield nerf should go to 8 secs Hardened/12 secs Empowered. This gives sorcs something slightly special compared to other shields.
Mages Fury fails it seems ~20% of the time and Disintegrate passive really needs to be fixed since it evidently isn't working correctly.
I look forward to the combat teams PTS adjustment to Sorc passives and Stam sorc abilities but am cautious to give praise since their attention usually results in mixed results (See huge nerfs to Templar Purifying Ritual and Heavy Armor block cost etc.)
V Є H Є M Є И C Є
Revenge of the Bear
ØMNI
Solongandthanksforallthef
Revenge of the Hist
Revenge of the Deer
Remember the Great Burn of of the Blackwater War!
#FreeArgonia2 -
GriM_728✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
It will be implemented plain and simple. There is no question about that. Far too many people, IN PVP THAT CAN'T WORK DOWN A SORC CAUSE THEY ARENT AS GREAT AS THEY FEEL THEY SHOULD BE RUNNING SOME "ELITISTS" BUILD, have complained. Now the majority will get the shaft because of the minority.1 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll3 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
Edited by lassitershawn on May 5, 2016 10:33PMWilliam Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭lassitershawn wrote: »And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
Have you done vMSA on sorc on the pts?
I have and it´s strenuous compared to live. Just about every spawn past round 2 needs more than 6s of shield time. Which results in every spawn past round 2 i now have to cast minimum one extra ward or two (because time lost to cast ward not dpsing results in more incoming dmg) and every spawn costs 1-2 extra second which adds up quite a bit over a whole run.
Also the big trump card being overload receives a passive nerf bc of this. You need your shield up to stay safe basically which results in a ~15% dps loss while overloading.
Smart people will just switch to mag nightblade that has a 100% reliable heal and about the same shieldstrengh as sorcs for vmsa now. That´s whats going to happen.
NB kills the bosses equally fast while having a higher fault tolerance with the next patch.
I haven't done vMA in a while (other than on my lowbie DK) since I got my weapon. I should not have stated we will continue to excel in vMA without testing it myself. Just my opinion ofc, but I don't see myself struggling with vMA on sorc after the patch if I choose to do it again.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262908/idea-to-possibly-improve-sorcerer-dps/p1
@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
@ZOS_Finn
Please read this thread. Please*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).
Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.
May I please have what you are smoking?
He's not smoking anything. He's right. In a group of decent players, even if your healer is primarily a DPS, you shouldn't need a shield.
William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x22 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.2 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.
I think the main issue is that pets suck, not so much Hardened Ward. Pets need major buffs. Also to be fair, it is typically more serious players/duelers PvPing on PTS, so the average skill level of your enemies was probably a tier or two above live.
William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
GriM_728✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
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Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.
Right there with you. In pve I tanked stacking undeath, conjured Ward and harness magicka. It was fun, my guild members preferred my build over stam dk tanks in the guild.lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
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Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.
I think the main issue is that pets suck, not so much Hardened Ward. Pets need major buffs.
Pets do suck but for God sake quit looking at this in some damned elitist aspect. Hardened Ward is an issue now, a big issue. Take a step back and look at this from someone else's point of view instead of yours.
Edited by GriM_728 on May 6, 2016 12:06AM1 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.
Right there with you. In pve I tanked stacking undeath, conjured Ward and harness magicka. It was fun, my guild members preferred my build over stam dk tanks in the guild.lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.
I think the main issue is that pets suck, not so much Hardened Ward. Pets need major buffs.
Pets do suck but for God sake quit looking at this in some damned elitist aspect. Hardened Ward is an issue now, a big issue. Take a step back and look at this from someone else's point of view instead of shoving yours down our throats.
Fair enough, I was definitely looking at the nerf from my point of view (non-pet PvP, endgame PvE DPS). My apologies.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.
I think the main issue is that pets suck, not so much Hardened Ward. Pets need major buffs. Also to be fair, it is typically more serious players/duelers PvPing on PTS, so the average skill level of your enemies was probably a tier or two above live.
I am no expert but some of those guys were the same as on live that I beat or atleast held my own0 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »cpuScientist wrote: »lassitershawn wrote: »*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************
Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.
2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.
3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.
4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.
This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.
You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.
Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.
Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.
In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...
If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?
I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.
Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.
What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....
This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...
Ok, clearly I confused a lot of people. I am IN FAVOR of sorcs getting buffed in group PvE, and IN FAVOR of pets and niche builds, and stamsorcs being buffed.
Lets go over my original post. I mentioned how fear only lasts 1 second if you break out. I mentioned how the duration is barely a nerf in PvP (I played on PTS, and our loss of burst is a far bigger nerf than the shield nerf). We will still be fine in PvP (and better in group PvP, because negate got buffed a lot). I made a joke about the 70k taking aim that would kill basically anyone. Then I stated that it is a myth that in perfect conditions with perfect buffs a sorc struggles to hit 25k. I posted a parse to disprove this. It wasn't even a good/optimal parse, and there are far better sorcs than I. I showed some specific examples where sorcs are good in PvE group content, and stated that we will still be good in vMA. NEVER did I state we bring as much to group content as other classes, in fact I stated the exact opposite ("we do not excel as much as other builds in group content").
Edit: And yes LL is a small radius DoT, but it is also an absurdly powerful DoT. It is frequently in the #1/#2 position on my damage recaps. I wouldn't mind a radius increase but LL is far from a weak ability.
And as I keep saying the duration is a nerf if you have ever played a pet build. It is a nerf if you play a CC build it is a nerf if you are not a cookie cutter Sorc. It now brings it up into the front bar a big difference. And if to you and others say is not a nerf at all then why would it matter if it lasts 20 seconds? Yes our damage also got nerfed, but I never relied on proxy/inevitable and I mostly used the atronach in conjuction with soul assault. But I play a different type of Sorc. I brought my build to the pts and it got destroyed repeatedly, where in live I do fine.
In PVE I tanked so much content and that's now not possible it just is not gonna work how it used to. Yes I was having shields up past the 6 seconds and more importantly my shield had to be taken down not timed out when I was cc'd. It's a big CHANGE. It really was the glue for the Sorc. And we got nothing in return for it. 8% health for bringing out a pet that is just gonna die without a shield which I cannot afford to be fishing out every 6 seconds due to cost and the DPS burn.
It affects Sorcs. I get that your build might not be affected. But not everyone was running cookie cutter and nothing is wrong with running it. But it's not fun for me, I liked being a DPS tank, I liked being a pet Sorc actually bringing some use to the tram in off heals and stuns, and knowing I'd be alive go rez them.
I think the main issue is that pets suck, not so much Hardened Ward. Pets need major buffs. Also to be fair, it is typically more serious players/duelers PvPing on PTS, so the average skill level of your enemies was probably a tier or two above live.
I am no expert but some of those guys were the same as on live that I beat or atleast held my own
Yea, I got beat by some people I beat on live as well, and some previously easy wins were a bit harder. Partly the loss of some VCurse damage, and Proxy/DB nerfs, but my biggest issue was sustain. On live I never run out of resources in a 1v1 and usually not in 1vXing either, but on PTS most of my deaths came from losing sustain. Cost increases on all skills + new poisons that increase costs by 30% really hurt. Definitely going to have to find a Dawnbreaker of Smiting replacement, and I think I will be slotting Elemental Drain for duels in place of Endless Fury. Small damage boost, but the sustain it adds should be huge. All sorc builds will have to be changed for one reason or another, but it does seem you guys (pet builds) got hit harder unfortunately.
Edited by lassitershawn on May 6, 2016 12:28AMWilliam Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262908/idea-to-possibly-improve-sorcerer-dps/p1
@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
@ZOS_Finn
Please read this thread. Please*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
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Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.
Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.
In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.
A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.
So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.
understand a little bit of my frustration here?
By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.
And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.
Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.
Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.
And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.
Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.
What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.
For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)
Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)
Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.
CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.
Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.
Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).
Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.
May I please have what you are smoking?
Elitist used taunt on the forums.
It´s very effective.
Mind if I save this? LOLjknight201 wrote: »Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).
Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.
You have actually played this game before, right? Because from your comment - it sounds like you haven't.
In any case you're just flat-out wrong. There are many cases where sorcs need a damage shield just to survive, and many more where they need it to avoid being a constant drain on the healer's resources. When you're in a group with no healer? Or a bad one? Or the healer goes down and the dps need to self-sustain long enough to rez the healer? Or you want to fight, oh I don't know, maybe more than one mob at a time? Or fighting the Planar Inhibitor where the healer can't constantly heal? Then what - we're still a bad sorc if we need a damage shield?
It's clear he plays with top end raid groups where everyone is a long time veteran and knows their role precisely. He's not entirely wrong. But he comes off that his guild is so good that he can play with one hand tied behind his back, so you should too! That's not right either, just shut up or help us get our damn shields back.
As for DPS abilities, our best PVP skill (frags) has a long, easily interruptible cast. It's reflectable, dodge able, and block able. It has a 30% proc rate for an instant shot that never activates when you need it, and it hits for a whopping 6K on the rare occasion that it connects and manages to knock someone down. Name me one other class that puts up with this bull****!
Curse is nice, but when they see themselves glowing purple, most people hold block and just mitigate it.
Mages wrath is a terrible spam ability, let's not get into destro staff alternatives.
Something here needs to be fixed, because the whole class has something wrong with it. Start with some of the class passives, and look into fixing destro staff damage versus duel wield if we can't get a class spam ability. Put hardened ward back to 15-20 seconds, and do something for the pet people defenses.
Well you aren't wrong. I'm in good guilds and I can play with one hand provided I don't have to move at the same time. (Razer Naga Epic FTW). I'm just giving feedback on what matters to me. I don't care about the shield, but I do care about DPS, and I will adamantly agree that it needs buffs.
However, the shield? I could live without it, if I had to (and I do).Edited by Valrien on May 6, 2016 12:33AMValrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
GriM_728✭✭✭I think we as sorcs are forgetting something here in this post as we debate back and forth. We should be fighting for everyone's build that's going to be effected by this not just our own. If these changes are going to trash 1 build that 5k people run or 1 build that one person runs, shouldn't we be trying to work together to keep this from happening?
4 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭I think we as sorcs are forgetting something here in this post as we debate back and forth. We should be fighting for everyone's build that's going to be effected by this not just our own. If these changes are going to trash 1 build that 5k people run or 1 build that one person runs, shouldn't we be trying to work together to keep this from happening?
Definitely right. Pet builds and sorc tanks aren't common, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored.Edited by lassitershawn on May 6, 2016 3:42AMWilliam Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
Yo_Donno✭✭✭Sorcs need a better DoT. A lot of people have been saying that Liquid Lightning is the best DoT in the game but thats only if you don't just sidestep out of it. Don't get me wrong it works really amazingly as an AoE but we need access to a curse-like DoT that follows the player.0
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lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭Sorcs need a better DoT. A lot of people have been saying that Liquid Lightning is the best DoT in the game but thats only if you don't just sidestep out of it. Don't get me wrong it works really amazingly as an AoE but we need access to a curse-like DoT that follows the player.
Well... I wouldn't mind them replacing Dark Conversion with a DoT. LL IS one of the best DoTs ingame though, purely in terms of damage. If your tank is good and the boss isn't super mobile, it is VERY good.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
Yo_Donno✭✭✭lassitershawn wrote: »Sorcs need a better DoT. A lot of people have been saying that Liquid Lightning is the best DoT in the game but thats only if you don't just sidestep out of it. Don't get me wrong it works really amazingly as an AoE but we need access to a curse-like DoT that follows the player.
Well... I wouldn't mind them replacing Dark Conversion with a DoT. LL IS one of the best DoTs ingame though, purely in terms of damage. If your tank is good and the boss isn't super mobile, it is VERY good.
Dark Conversion is useless as it is so I wouldn't mind replacing it with a DoT either, though I would love to have access to a non pet-based self heal that's actually worthwhile.
Yes, the damage is really high but I was thinking a DoT for the PvP scene. If you try to use it on another player it can just be sidestepped and it's not the cheapest cast out there either.0 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭lassitershawn wrote: »Sorcs need a better DoT. A lot of people have been saying that Liquid Lightning is the best DoT in the game but thats only if you don't just sidestep out of it. Don't get me wrong it works really amazingly as an AoE but we need access to a curse-like DoT that follows the player.
Well... I wouldn't mind them replacing Dark Conversion with a DoT. LL IS one of the best DoTs ingame though, purely in terms of damage. If your tank is good and the boss isn't super mobile, it is VERY good.
Dark Conversion is useless as it is so I wouldn't mind replacing it with a DoT either, though I would love to have access to a non pet-based self heal that's actually worthwhile.
Yes, the damage is really high but I was thinking a DoT for the PvP scene. If you try to use it on another player it can just be sidestepped and it's not the cheapest cast out there either.
Ah yes, in PvP LL is quite bad lol.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
SonOfSune✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...0 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think we as sorcs are forgetting something here in this post as we debate back and forth. We should be fighting for everyone's build that's going to be effected by this not just our own. If these changes are going to trash 1 build that 5k people run or 1 build that one person runs, shouldn't we be trying to work together to keep this from happening?
Perfectly stated and exactly what I've been trying to do in this discussion. Propose changes that could benefit different styles while accepting that shields are getting nerfed no matter how much we dislike it.
List of main suggestions for changes:
Dark Conversion: This skill needs to be completely changed, there is nothing good about it, even the animation for it is bad. Make it our magika based, low cost, instant cast ability. One morph for melee that causes extra damage and one morph for greater range that causes a little less damage but gives some buff or extra sustain or cost less.
Why it has to replace Dark Conversion? First of all, this is a completely useless ability, even the guys from Zenimax giggle when we bring up this skill while discussing with them in voice. Most important though, because this skill is in the Dark Magic tree it will benefit from Blood Magic and exploitation, giving us better sustain and pretty much buffing those around the sorcerer continuously and reliably.
Crystal Blast: The other morph is simply too superior to this. Change this skill into a stamina/ Weapon Power scaling morph with a proc mechanism similar or even identical to Crystal Fragments. This change alone will heavily buff Stamina Sorcerers.
Summon Storm Atronach: Could use some considerable buff or changes. I'd go for a Morph that gives everyone stacked around it a huge damage buff and a second morph that reduces the damage taken by those stacked around it by suffering the damage instead. Called them Empowering Atronach and Protective Atronach.
Summon Unstable Clannfear: Remove this pet's active heal and replace it with a single target taunt. Lore wise Clannfears don't have healing powers. No, they have taunt though, actually this pet had a taunt before so... Why not give it back and allow for an interesting mechanic for sorcerer tanking?
Summon Winged Twilight: This bird is simply too weak and by that I mean it dies way too easily. Increase its health and resistances considerably, specially if you expect Matriarch to be useful for sorcerer healers.
Conjured Ward: Pets shielded are invulnerable to damage during its duration. Now, we all agree pet builds will be hurt considerably by the nerfing of Ward as we will no longer be able to keep it on the pets 100% of the time. Cool, we can take that, but make so that using the Ward at the right moment always saves your pet, it is an interesting mechanic and makes so summoner sorcerers actually need to pay close attention to what is going on with their pets. Pet is standing on ***? Put a ward on it and it will live. *** is about to happen in the raid? Huge AoE that will definitely kill your pet? Shield it, it will survive. As for morphs, one shield heals the pets affected upon casting, the other buffs the amount of damage the caster is protected from or heals the caster.
Bound Armaments and Aegis: This ability could use an active similar to what pets have. Maybe Aegis could summon a phantom shield that blocks for the sorcerer for a number of seconds (meaning the game will count you as blocking even while you are not). Armaments could summon a phantom of the currently equipped weapon increasing doubling light and heavy attack damage (Does not affect Overload as you are weaponless when that ult is active - It would be way too overpowered otherwise). At the same time you could remove the heavy attack damage from the stamina morph and minor ward from Aegis to compensate for the buff.
Rebate: This passive really needs to be redesigned or made more powerful. If other buffs were given to the tree this wouldn't be as relevant though.
Disintegrate: This passive needs a better proc chance.
There... I think that does it.Edited by Grao on May 6, 2016 5:12AM0 -
lassitershawn✭✭✭✭✭I think we as sorcs are forgetting something here in this post as we debate back and forth. We should be fighting for everyone's build that's going to be effected by this not just our own. If these changes are going to trash 1 build that 5k people run or 1 build that one person runs, shouldn't we be trying to work together to keep this from happening?
Perfectly stated and exactly what I've been trying to do in this discussion. Propose changes that could benefit different styles while accepting that shields are getting nerfed no matter how much we dislike it.
List of main suggestions for changes:
Dark Conversion: This skill needs to be completely changed, there is nothing good about it, even the animation for it is bad. Make it our magika based, low cost, instant cast ability. One morph for melee that causes extra damage and one morph for greater range that causes a little less damage but gives some buff or extra sustain or cost less.
Why it has to replace Dark Conversion? First of all, this is a completely useless ability, even the guys from Zenimax giggle when we bring up this skill while discussing with them in voice. Most important though, because this skill is in the Dark Magic tree it will benefit from Blood Magic and exploitation, giving us better sustain and pretty much buffing those around the sorcerer continuously and reliably.
Crystal Blast: The other morph is simply too superior to this. Change this skill into a stamina/ Weapon Power scaling morph with a proc mechanism similar or even identical to Crystal Fragments. This change alone will heavily buff Stamina Sorcerers.
Summon Storm Atronach: Could use some considerable buff or changes. I'd go for a Morph that gives everyone stacked around it a huge damage buff and a second morph that reduces the damage taken by those stacked around it by suffering the damage instead. Called them Empowering Atronach and Protective Atronach.
Summon Unstable Clannfear: Remove this pet's active heal and replace it with a single target taunt. Lore wise Clannfears don't have healing powers. No, they have taunt though, actually this pet had a taunt before so... Why not give it back and allow for an interesting mechanic for sorcerer tanking?
Summon Winged Twilight: This bird is simply too weak and by that I mean it dies way too easily. Increase its health and resistances considerably, specially if you expect Matriarch to be useful for sorcerer healers.
Conjured Ward: Pets shielded are invulnerable to damage during its duration. Now, we all agree pet builds will be hurt considerably by the nerfing of Ward as we will no longer be able to keep it on the pets 100% of the time. Cool, we can take that, but make so that using the Ward at the right moment always saves your pet, it is an interesting mechanic and makes so summoner sorcerers actually need to pay close attention to what is going on with their pets. Pet is standing on ***? Put a ward on it and it will live. *** is about to happen in the raid? Huge AoE that will definitely kill your pet? Shield it, it will survive. As for morphs, one shield heals the pets affected upon casting, the other buffs the amount of damage the caster is protected from or heals the caster.
Bound Armaments and Aegis: This ability could use an active similar to what pets have. Maybe Aegis could summon a phantom shield that blocks for the sorcerer for a number of seconds (meaning the game will count you as blocking even while you are not). Armaments could summon a phantom of the currently equipped weapon increasing doubling light and heavy attack damage (Does not affect Overload as you are weaponless when that ult is active - It would be way too overpowered otherwise). At the same time you could remove the heavy attack damage from the stamina morph and minor ward from Aegis to compensate for the buff.
Rebate: This passive really needs to be redesigned or made more powerful. If other buffs were given to the tree this wouldn't be as relevant though.
Disintegrate: This passive needs a better proc chance.
There... I think that does it.
I could get on board with a lot of these. I've proposed atronach buffs before but they were entirely dedicated to buffing its DPS. Yours are a bit more interesting, especially the one that absorbs damage for people around it, but I do suggest that the atronach gives an additional buff to the user, otherwise the higher DPS classes are just getting buffed more by a sorc summoning the atronach, and it doesn't really reduce the disparity in DPS between classes.
Agreed with crystal blast. Literally NO (or almost no) Magicka sorcerers use this morph, for good reason. Turn it into something for stamsorcs. If it is a spam, stamsorcs would have the nice niche of healing a lot while they do damage (between blood magic and crit surge), giving them a unique identity.
Love the clannfear change.
Agree with winged twilight change, it dies super fast. I've tried it for sorc healing and it is barely worth it.
Would add that conjured ward gives pets 3 seconds of immovability, preventing the use of long-duration CCs in PvP to completely disable a pet.
LOVE the armaments change, my light attacks would be doing so much damage with that change and my vMA staff. Aegis however sounds possibly overpowered in PvP as it would basically allow permablocking with a regenerating resource being used to block. HOWEVER, it could make you do 90% less damage while affected, making it a very powerful option for sorc tanks in PvE, without making Magicka sorcs really overpowered in PvP. This is actually the change I wanted to apply to normal blocking, instead of no stam regen while blocking.
I would propose rebate increase critical chance by 5-8%, and pet damage by 15%. Buffs overall sorc DPS without being too good in PvP as crit is pretty bad in PvP, synergizes with power/crit surge and helps stamsorcs out especially that use crit surge. The pet damage buff gives even more incentive to use the atronach and other pets.
As an additional buff to pets, I propose that enemies affected by Daedric Prey also do 50% less damage to pets.William Thorne - EP Breton Sorcerer
Astrid Winterborn - EP Breton Warden
Erik Ironskin - EP Nord Dragonknight
Venasa Viri - EP Dunmer Nightblade
IR x8, GH x5, TTT x20 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭lassitershawn wrote: »I think we as sorcs are forgetting something here in this post as we debate back and forth. We should be fighting for everyone's build that's going to be effected by this not just our own. If these changes are going to trash 1 build that 5k people run or 1 build that one person runs, shouldn't we be trying to work together to keep this from happening?
Perfectly stated and exactly what I've been trying to do in this discussion. Propose changes that could benefit different styles while accepting that shields are getting nerfed no matter how much we dislike it.
List of main suggestions for changes:
Dark Conversion: This skill needs to be completely changed, there is nothing good about it, even the animation for it is bad. Make it our magika based, low cost, instant cast ability. One morph for melee that causes extra damage and one morph for greater range that causes a little less damage but gives some buff or extra sustain or cost less.
Why it has to replace Dark Conversion? First of all, this is a completely useless ability, even the guys from Zenimax giggle when we bring up this skill while discussing with them in voice. Most important though, because this skill is in the Dark Magic tree it will benefit from Blood Magic and exploitation, giving us better sustain and pretty much buffing those around the sorcerer continuously and reliably.
Crystal Blast: The other morph is simply too superior to this. Change this skill into a stamina/ Weapon Power scaling morph with a proc mechanism similar or even identical to Crystal Fragments. This change alone will heavily buff Stamina Sorcerers.
Summon Storm Atronach: Could use some considerable buff or changes. I'd go for a Morph that gives everyone stacked around it a huge damage buff and a second morph that reduces the damage taken by those stacked around it by suffering the damage instead. Called them Empowering Atronach and Protective Atronach.
Summon Unstable Clannfear: Remove this pet's active heal and replace it with a single target taunt. Lore wise Clannfears don't have healing powers. No, they have taunt though, actually this pet had a taunt before so... Why not give it back and allow for an interesting mechanic for sorcerer tanking?
Summon Winged Twilight: This bird is simply too weak and by that I mean it dies way too easily. Increase its health and resistances considerably, specially if you expect Matriarch to be useful for sorcerer healers.
Conjured Ward: Pets shielded are invulnerable to damage during its duration. Now, we all agree pet builds will be hurt considerably by the nerfing of Ward as we will no longer be able to keep it on the pets 100% of the time. Cool, we can take that, but make so that using the Ward at the right moment always saves your pet, it is an interesting mechanic and makes so summoner sorcerers actually need to pay close attention to what is going on with their pets. Pet is standing on ***? Put a ward on it and it will live. *** is about to happen in the raid? Huge AoE that will definitely kill your pet? Shield it, it will survive. As for morphs, one shield heals the pets affected upon casting, the other buffs the amount of damage the caster is protected from or heals the caster.
Bound Armaments and Aegis: This ability could use an active similar to what pets have. Maybe Aegis could summon a phantom shield that blocks for the sorcerer for a number of seconds (meaning the game will count you as blocking even while you are not). Armaments could summon a phantom of the currently equipped weapon increasing doubling light and heavy attack damage (Does not affect Overload as you are weaponless when that ult is active - It would be way too overpowered otherwise). At the same time you could remove the heavy attack damage from the stamina morph and minor ward from Aegis to compensate for the buff.
Rebate: This passive really needs to be redesigned or made more powerful. If other buffs were given to the tree this wouldn't be as relevant though.
Disintegrate: This passive needs a better proc chance.
There... I think that does it.
I could get on board with a lot of these. I've proposed atronach buffs before but they were entirely dedicated to buffing its DPS. Yours are a bit more interesting, especially the one that absorbs damage for people around it, but I do suggest that the atronach gives an additional buff to the user, otherwise the higher DPS classes are just getting buffed more by a sorc summoning the atronach, and it doesn't really reduce the disparity in DPS between classes.
Agreed with crystal blast. Literally NO (or almost no) Magicka sorcerers use this morph, for good reason. Turn it into something for stamsorcs. If it is a spam, stamsorcs would have the nice niche of healing a lot while they do damage (between blood magic and crit surge), giving them a unique identity.
Love the clannfear change.
Agree with winged twilight change, it dies super fast. I've tried it for sorc healing and it is barely worth it.
Would add that conjured ward gives pets 3 seconds of immovability, preventing the use of long-duration CCs in PvP to completely disable a pet.
LOVE the armaments change, my light attacks would be doing so much damage with that change and my vMA staff. Aegis however sounds possibly overpowered in PvP as it would basically allow permablocking with a regenerating resource being used to block. HOWEVER, it could make you do 90% less damage while affected, making it a very powerful option for sorc tanks in PvE, without making Magicka sorcs really overpowered in PvP. This is actually the change I wanted to apply to normal blocking, instead of no stam regen while blocking.
I would propose rebate increase critical chance by 5-8%, and pet damage by 15%. Buffs overall sorc DPS without being too good in PvP as crit is pretty bad in PvP, synergizes with power/crit surge and helps stamsorcs out especially that use crit surge. The pet damage buff gives even more incentive to use the atronach and other pets.
As an additional buff to pets, I propose that enemies affected by Daedric Prey also do 50% less damage to pets.
The changes I proposed to Atronach were towards improving the sorcerer's utility in a raid. Currently you need DKs, you need Nightblades, you Templars but you don't need sorcerers. Once upon a time Negate was strong enough to be needed, but pure mitigation is far better than the current iteration of Negate pos nerfs (I still need to test how the buffs affected this ability). So the idea was to increase everyone's DPS considerably, I can see this being extremely useful during execution phases for example, when damage usually already goes up. As for the absorbing Atronach, well, my hope is that it could replace a Veil or a Nova, something like that.
I stand behind completely redesigning Dark Conversion, it is a horrible ability and having a spamable ability for sorcerers could be the solution for our main DPS issues, not to mention having it as part of the Dark Magic tree would tremendously help our sustain as well. Having the morphs be a more powerful melee ability (that is still magika mased) and one that is ranged gives sorcerers a completely new possibility, the idea of a Melee Magika DPS, a build that would take full advantage of Thunderous Presence at all times, likely use Doal Wield Swords as their weapons and be a very risky build, but would also have very strong sustained DPS.
I can understand the concern about the Aegis active. It could be overpowered depending on cooldown, costs etc. The damage debuff could be indeed interesting.
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