Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

GriM_728 · May 2016

I've bought a bottle of ***-ez in prep for the inevitable nerfs our sorcs WILL receive. Our voices will not be heard. If only @NativeJoe were the one calling the shots instead of Wrobel.

cpuScientist · May 2016

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
This is where the class is left. Perfectly explains it. Now do something about it.

lassitershawn · May 2016

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw, and I'm not even altmer (altmer would have ~1k more dps here). It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

Edit: I confused a few people with the above paragraph, I am in favor of buffing sorc sustained DPS in PvE. Was just pointing out the things wrong with the post I quoted.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

lassitershawn · May 2016

GriM_728 wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

The real issue with sorc changes is that stamsorc still sucks. I don't get why people want to play a stam sorcerer, but there are plenty that do, and as long as this is true stamsorc should be made more viable.

The only good thing you had to say. You may not run shields in pve but there are plenty of others that do. There are also people like myself that are mag sorc tanks and 6 seconds kills resources far too quick. I am not a tank anymore due to this botched "fix" @Wrobel is implementing. Also take into consideration there are people that ONLY play solo.

You're telling me your shield lasted 6 seconds anyways vs Molag Kena, Mantikora, or Serpent HM? I get the feeling a Mantikora attack would clean your shield off, and then a significant part of your health off from behind the shield. If I'm wrong, and you've actually tested tanking with this change on PTS, feel free to correct me, but I highly doubt you will have more issues sustaining. People that only play solo will be fine. 99% of solo content is mobs that do about 5 damage and die to 2 light attacks. vMA is the only hard solo content, and sorcs will still be MORE than fine in vMA, if for no other reason than overload exists.

cpuScientist · May 2016

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.

In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...

If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?

cpuScientist · May 2016

To 6 seconds I meant

cpuScientist · May 2016

Oh and hey 30k DPS, welcome to the Stamplar StamSorc club... That's what they can muster up if everything goes right and they have warhorn and beast reao and everything just right. Great to see a magic class down here in the dingy, what's that, where are the other classes. Oh they are over there in the 40k - 50k mega yachts. But don't worry about them you are with us now... One of u,s one of us, one of us....

Grao · May 2016

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

I highlighted a little point from your post where you say "And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content..." because that is a huge problem, actually it is the heart of our complains. Sorcerers don't excel in any role in group content and at the end of the day group content (raiding) is the heart of end game PvE.

Our Magika DPS is the lowest.
Our Stamina DPS is not only low, it has pretty nothing going for it as most of the sorcerer abilities that do have stamina morphs are either unimpressive or just useless.
Tanking as sorcerer used to be fun, but was never exceptional. With Ward being nerfed it becomes pretty much impossible as our class has no other meaningful mitigation.
Healing as sorcerer is deplorable. Yes, ZoS buffed Matriarch's heals and gave us control over it but pretty much every boss with an AoE can one shot that poor bird.

Sorcerers are still the only class that doesn't have a Magika based spamable ability, thus we are forever stuck with a Destruction staff and Force Shock.
We have an unbelievable number of Abilities and passives that are useless or close to useless. Naming a couple... Rebate, Expert Summoner (Still can't understand why this passive excludes half the abilities from the summoning tree), Daedric Protection (was nerfed and is now pretty much useless), Dark Exchange (Possibly the worse class skill in the game), Crystal Blast (For gods sake, change this and make it a stamina morph), Daedric Mines (It was nerfed a while back, it wasn't great then, it is worse now.)...
Pets are a problem because they are toggles and they just... Don't survive fights, not to mention their DPS is still too low because they only scale from Magika and completely ignore spell power.

Understand, the problem is not so much that Ward is being heavily nerfed. The problem is, Sorcerer is already an under-powered class when compared to other classes, that we are getting heavy nerfs again and we are seeing no great buffs is a huge problem and it is problem we've gone through before more than once. Sorcs were extremely powerful and very unique when the game was released and ever since we pretty much saw heavy nerfs, with every large patch.

At the same time non-class abilities were buffed or changed and are pretty much copies of what sorcerers have in their kits, so the class doesn't even feel unique anymore as pets are just not very popular as they are just plain boring and... Not terribly useful. I have no issues with nerfs as long as they are accompanied by buffs and changes that fix the class's problems. The issue is, this problems I am pointing out are the same problems I've been pointing out for over a year now, not only here in the forums, but also during ESO Live and conversations a guild I was part of had with ZoS... And still there are no fixes.

PainfulFAFA · May 2016

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw, and I'm not even altmer (altmer would have ~1k more dps here). It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

This.
What cracked me up was the other dude's picture of a 70k Taking Aim..... a 1 shot mechanic nobody, not even a shield stacking sorc, can survive without a defensive sigil.

illuminousflux · May 2016

For all of you who are saying sorcerers can't pull high DPS I recommend you take a look at The Yolo Wizard build over on tamriel foundry, who pulls a good 40k DPS on bosses like the Possessed Mantikora and The Adjucator and 31k on The Serpent.

lassitershawn · May 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.

In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...

If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?

I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.

Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.

lassitershawn · May 2016

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

I highlighted a little point from your post where you say "And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content..." because that is a huge problem, actually it is the heart of our complains. Sorcerers don't excel in any role in group content and at the end of the day group content (raiding) is the heart of end game PvE.

Our Magika DPS is the lowest.
Our Stamina DPS is not only low, it has pretty nothing going for it as most of the sorcerer abilities that do have stamina morphs are either unimpressive or just useless.
Tanking as sorcerer used to be fun, but was never exceptional. With Ward being nerfed it becomes pretty much impossible as our class has no other meaningful mitigation.
Healing as sorcerer is deplorable. Yes, ZoS buffed Matriarch's heals and gave us control over it but pretty much every boss with an AoE can one shot that poor bird.

Sorcerers are still the only class that doesn't have a Magika based spamable ability, thus we are forever stuck with a Destruction staff and Force Shock.
We have an unbelievable number of Abilities and passives that are useless or close to useless. Naming a couple... Rebate, Expert Summoner (Still can't understand why this passive excludes half the abilities from the summoning tree), Daedric Protection (was nerfed and is now pretty much useless), Dark Exchange (Possibly the worse class skill in the game), Crystal Blast (For gods sake, change this and make it a stamina morph), Daedric Mines (It was nerfed a while back, it wasn't great then, it is worse now.)...
Pets are a problem because they are toggles and they just... Don't survive fights, not to mention their DPS is still too low because they only scale from Magika and completely ignore spell power.

Understand, the problem is not so much that Ward is being heavily nerfed. The problem is, Sorcerer is already an under-powered class when compared to other classes, that we are getting heavy nerfs again and we are seeing no great buffs is a huge problem and it is problem we've gone through before more than once. Sorcs were extremely powerful when the game was released and ever since we pretty much only saw nerfs, most dictated from problems steaming from PvP.

Yup, I did state that, and I don't have an issue with it because we excel in other areas. However, if something was done to improve sorc DPS, I would be elated, I play a sorc as my main lol.

DKs don't have an execute... not every class has to be identical with different particle effects.

Definitely right about Dark Exchange lol.

Daedric mines is incredibly good in PvP, not every skill needs a PvP and PvE use.

Agree about some of the passives.

Pets suck, I stated that, and I want it changed. Huge proponent of buffing atronach to be a viable ultimate btw, and I feel this would bring sorc DPS up to par with other classes, without affecting PvP too much (and honestly, a PvP atro buff would be cool as well).

I understand that isn't the problem, but that's what I made a special point to address, because that is what everyone is whining about (at least a lot of them).

Edit:
Going to expand further on the group content because I feel it ( + pets and stamsorcs) is the only valid complaint. We are definitely the lowest DPS of builds commonly used in endgame PvE (all magicka classes + stam DK), and compared to DPS NBs (which also throw off amazing heals), DPS DKs (which bring chains to the table, very important in vMoL, plus the amazing engulfing flames debuff), and stam DKs and templars (better DPS), we are definitely not the best in endgame PvE (though I still maintain we are far from useless).

My solutions (may make an in-depth thread on this later) to buff sorcs in PvE dps without making them too good in areas where they already excel (solo/small group PvP, solo PvE), would be to change some of our passives to give better support to allies, hugely buff Storm Atronach for PvE DPS (if it was usable, it would be another indirect buff as allies would LOVE that synergy), and possibly some other changes.

PrinceBoru · May 2016

Nightblades are OP.
Not Sorcs.
Don't fiddle with my mage any more.

Grao · May 2016

lassitershawn wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

I highlighted a little point from your post where you say "And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content..." because that is a huge problem, actually it is the heart of our complains. Sorcerers don't excel in any role in group content and at the end of the day group content (raiding) is the heart of end game PvE.

Our Magika DPS is the lowest.
Our Stamina DPS is not only low, it has pretty nothing going for it as most of the sorcerer abilities that do have stamina morphs are either unimpressive or just useless.
Tanking as sorcerer used to be fun, but was never exceptional. With Ward being nerfed it becomes pretty much impossible as our class has no other meaningful mitigation.
Healing as sorcerer is deplorable. Yes, ZoS buffed Matriarch's heals and gave us control over it but pretty much every boss with an AoE can one shot that poor bird.

Sorcerers are still the only class that doesn't have a Magika based spamable ability, thus we are forever stuck with a Destruction staff and Force Shock.
We have an unbelievable number of Abilities and passives that are useless or close to useless. Naming a couple... Rebate, Expert Summoner (Still can't understand why this passive excludes half the abilities from the summoning tree), Daedric Protection (was nerfed and is now pretty much useless), Dark Exchange (Possibly the worse class skill in the game), Crystal Blast (For gods sake, change this and make it a stamina morph), Daedric Mines (It was nerfed a while back, it wasn't great then, it is worse now.)...
Pets are a problem because they are toggles and they just... Don't survive fights, not to mention their DPS is still too low because they only scale from Magika and completely ignore spell power.

Understand, the problem is not so much that Ward is being heavily nerfed. The problem is, Sorcerer is already an under-powered class when compared to other classes, that we are getting heavy nerfs again and we are seeing no great buffs is a huge problem and it is problem we've gone through before more than once. Sorcs were extremely powerful when the game was released and ever since we pretty much only saw nerfs, most dictated from problems steaming from PvP.

Yup, I did state that, and I don't have an issue with it because we excel in other areas. However, if something was done to improve sorc DPS, I would be elated, I play a sorc as my main lol.

DKs don't have an execute... not every class has to be identical with different particle effects.

Definitely right about Dark Exchange lol.

Daedric mines is incredibly good in PvP, not every skill needs a PvP and PvE use.

Agree about some of the passives.

Pets suck, I stated that, and I want it changed. Huge proponent of buffing atronach to be a viable ultimate btw, and I feel this would bring sorc DPS up to par with other classes, without affecting PvP too much (and honestly, a PvP atro buff would be cool as well).

I understand that isn't the problem, but that's what I made a special point to address, because that is what everyone is whining about (at least a lot of them).

Molten Armaments is supposedly the DK's execute. I agree it is not as powerful as Sorcerer's execution, but executions are only used at the final portions of the fight. I'd rather have a good ability to replace force pulse than our execute.

Daedric Mines used to be great in PvP, but they made them so hard to activate sometimes it feels like enemies can tap dance on top of them before anything happens.

What areas do you think Sorcerers truly excel in PvE? Our DPS is the lowest, our survivability for tanking pretty much went out of the window with this nerfs to Ward, our one healing skill is a toggle, meaning it consumes two ability slots and the pet it summons has no survivability at all... Are you saying we have great utility? We don't... Not really.

Negate used to be our thing, it was extremely important until ZoS stomped all over it a few patches back. Let me ask you this... How many sorcs do you need in a raid? I will tell you that you need, ideally, at least 2-3 DKs with chains, standard and Magma Shell, 2-3 nightblades for Veil and 2-3 templars because of Nova. And then you can have up to 2-3 Sorcerers... But you don't need sorcerers... Our ults are pretty much irrelevant in a raid except for when we have a fully charged overload... Actually, used to happen a lot of me being asked to just run war horn or barrier... Not sure if that changed since I stopped playing, but I doubt it has.

lassitershawn · May 2016

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

I highlighted a little point from your post where you say "And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content..." because that is a huge problem, actually it is the heart of our complains. Sorcerers don't excel in any role in group content and at the end of the day group content (raiding) is the heart of end game PvE.

Our Magika DPS is the lowest.
Our Stamina DPS is not only low, it has pretty nothing going for it as most of the sorcerer abilities that do have stamina morphs are either unimpressive or just useless.
Tanking as sorcerer used to be fun, but was never exceptional. With Ward being nerfed it becomes pretty much impossible as our class has no other meaningful mitigation.
Healing as sorcerer is deplorable. Yes, ZoS buffed Matriarch's heals and gave us control over it but pretty much every boss with an AoE can one shot that poor bird.

Sorcerers are still the only class that doesn't have a Magika based spamable ability, thus we are forever stuck with a Destruction staff and Force Shock.
We have an unbelievable number of Abilities and passives that are useless or close to useless. Naming a couple... Rebate, Expert Summoner (Still can't understand why this passive excludes half the abilities from the summoning tree), Daedric Protection (was nerfed and is now pretty much useless), Dark Exchange (Possibly the worse class skill in the game), Crystal Blast (For gods sake, change this and make it a stamina morph), Daedric Mines (It was nerfed a while back, it wasn't great then, it is worse now.)...
Pets are a problem because they are toggles and they just... Don't survive fights, not to mention their DPS is still too low because they only scale from Magika and completely ignore spell power.

Understand, the problem is not so much that Ward is being heavily nerfed. The problem is, Sorcerer is already an under-powered class when compared to other classes, that we are getting heavy nerfs again and we are seeing no great buffs is a huge problem and it is problem we've gone through before more than once. Sorcs were extremely powerful when the game was released and ever since we pretty much only saw nerfs, most dictated from problems steaming from PvP.

Yup, I did state that, and I don't have an issue with it because we excel in other areas. However, if something was done to improve sorc DPS, I would be elated, I play a sorc as my main lol.

DKs don't have an execute... not every class has to be identical with different particle effects.

Definitely right about Dark Exchange lol.

Daedric mines is incredibly good in PvP, not every skill needs a PvP and PvE use.

Agree about some of the passives.

Pets suck, I stated that, and I want it changed. Huge proponent of buffing atronach to be a viable ultimate btw, and I feel this would bring sorc DPS up to par with other classes, without affecting PvP too much (and honestly, a PvP atro buff would be cool as well).

I understand that isn't the problem, but that's what I made a special point to address, because that is what everyone is whining about (at least a lot of them).

Molten Armaments is supposedly the DK's execute. I agree it is not as powerful as Sorcerer's execution, but executions are only used at the final portions of the fight. I'd rather have a good ability to replace force pulse than our execute.

Daedric Mines used to be great in PvP, but they made them so hard to activate sometimes it feels like enemies can tap dance on top of them before anything happens.

What areas do you think Sorcerers truly excel in PvE? Our DPS is the lowest, our survivability for tanking pretty much went out of the window with this nerfs to Ward, our one healing skill is a toggle, meaning it consumes two ability slots and the pet it summons has no survivability at all... Are you saying we have great utility? We don't... Not really.

Negate used to be our thing, it was extremely important until ZoS stomped all over it a few patches back. Let me ask you this... How many sorcs do you need in a raid? I will tell you that you need, ideally, at least 2-3 DKs with chains, standard and Magma Shell, 2-3 nightblades for Veil and 2-3 templars because of Nova. And then you can have up to 2-3 Sorcerers... But you don't need sorcerers... Our ults are pretty much irrelevant in a raid except for when we have a fully charged overload... Actually, used to happen a lot of me being asked to just run war horn or barrier... Not sure if that changed since I stopped playing, but I doubt it has.

Molten Armaments is no longer an execute, unless the change was reverted...?

Never had an issue with minefield personally... do you use the ranged morph with three mines? I use the one with 5 and I know "double-tap to cast abilities" (like the three mines morph) can be a pita (this will be a setting that can be changed soon).

Never stated that we truly excel in PvE group content compared to other classes (since vMA is PvE, technically we do excel there, though it is solo).. I said that we bring useful things to the group, and mentioned some specific areas where we do excel. Sorcs DO excel on lamias, we ARE used as part of SO speed run tactics utilizing streak, and we do give minor prophecy to the group (admittedly a rather small buff). I've heard we excel in the backyard of final vMoL boss (again cannot confirm).

I'm really not sure we disagree on too many things in regard to PvE. I would like to see sorcs buffed for PvE dps, don't get me wrong. The main intent of my original post was to point out some blatantly untrue things in the post I replied to.

Grao · May 2016

lassitershawn wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

I highlighted a little point from your post where you say "And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content..." because that is a huge problem, actually it is the heart of our complains. Sorcerers don't excel in any role in group content and at the end of the day group content (raiding) is the heart of end game PvE.

Our Magika DPS is the lowest.
Our Stamina DPS is not only low, it has pretty nothing going for it as most of the sorcerer abilities that do have stamina morphs are either unimpressive or just useless.
Tanking as sorcerer used to be fun, but was never exceptional. With Ward being nerfed it becomes pretty much impossible as our class has no other meaningful mitigation.
Healing as sorcerer is deplorable. Yes, ZoS buffed Matriarch's heals and gave us control over it but pretty much every boss with an AoE can one shot that poor bird.

Sorcerers are still the only class that doesn't have a Magika based spamable ability, thus we are forever stuck with a Destruction staff and Force Shock.
We have an unbelievable number of Abilities and passives that are useless or close to useless. Naming a couple... Rebate, Expert Summoner (Still can't understand why this passive excludes half the abilities from the summoning tree), Daedric Protection (was nerfed and is now pretty much useless), Dark Exchange (Possibly the worse class skill in the game), Crystal Blast (For gods sake, change this and make it a stamina morph), Daedric Mines (It was nerfed a while back, it wasn't great then, it is worse now.)...
Pets are a problem because they are toggles and they just... Don't survive fights, not to mention their DPS is still too low because they only scale from Magika and completely ignore spell power.

Understand, the problem is not so much that Ward is being heavily nerfed. The problem is, Sorcerer is already an under-powered class when compared to other classes, that we are getting heavy nerfs again and we are seeing no great buffs is a huge problem and it is problem we've gone through before more than once. Sorcs were extremely powerful when the game was released and ever since we pretty much only saw nerfs, most dictated from problems steaming from PvP.

Yup, I did state that, and I don't have an issue with it because we excel in other areas. However, if something was done to improve sorc DPS, I would be elated, I play a sorc as my main lol.

DKs don't have an execute... not every class has to be identical with different particle effects.

Definitely right about Dark Exchange lol.

Daedric mines is incredibly good in PvP, not every skill needs a PvP and PvE use.

Agree about some of the passives.

Pets suck, I stated that, and I want it changed. Huge proponent of buffing atronach to be a viable ultimate btw, and I feel this would bring sorc DPS up to par with other classes, without affecting PvP too much (and honestly, a PvP atro buff would be cool as well).

I understand that isn't the problem, but that's what I made a special point to address, because that is what everyone is whining about (at least a lot of them).

Molten Armaments is supposedly the DK's execute. I agree it is not as powerful as Sorcerer's execution, but executions are only used at the final portions of the fight. I'd rather have a good ability to replace force pulse than our execute.

Daedric Mines used to be great in PvP, but they made them so hard to activate sometimes it feels like enemies can tap dance on top of them before anything happens.

What areas do you think Sorcerers truly excel in PvE? Our DPS is the lowest, our survivability for tanking pretty much went out of the window with this nerfs to Ward, our one healing skill is a toggle, meaning it consumes two ability slots and the pet it summons has no survivability at all... Are you saying we have great utility? We don't... Not really.

Negate used to be our thing, it was extremely important until ZoS stomped all over it a few patches back. Let me ask you this... How many sorcs do you need in a raid? I will tell you that you need, ideally, at least 2-3 DKs with chains, standard and Magma Shell, 2-3 nightblades for Veil and 2-3 templars because of Nova. And then you can have up to 2-3 Sorcerers... But you don't need sorcerers... Our ults are pretty much irrelevant in a raid except for when we have a fully charged overload... Actually, used to happen a lot of me being asked to just run war horn or barrier... Not sure if that changed since I stopped playing, but I doubt it has.

Molten Armaments is no longer an execute, unless the change was reverted...?

Never had an issue with minefield personally... do you use the ranged morph with three mines? I use the one with 5 and I know "double-tap to cast abilities" (like the three mines morph) can be a pita (this will be a setting that can be changed soon).

Never stated that we truly excel in PvE group content compared to other classes (since vMA is PvE, technically we do excel there, though it is solo).. I said that we bring useful things to the group, and mentioned some specific areas where we do excel. Sorcs DO excel on lamias, we ARE used as part of SO speed run tactics utilizing streak, and we do give minor prophecy to the group (admittedly a rather small buff). I've heard we excel in the backyard of final vMoL boss (again cannot confirm).

I'm really not sure we disagree on too many things in regard to PvE. I would like to see sorcs buffed for PvE dps, don't get me wrong. The main intent of my original post was to point out some blatantly untrue things in the post I replied to.

Oh ops, they removed the execution portion of the DK ability? Haven't played my DK for ever, though I know I will be once DB drops.

And I don't think we disagree, I was just trying to understand what you thought Sorcerer's excel at, now I understand. My post is mainly in case @Wrobel ever bother reading this thread.

lassitershawn · May 2016

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

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IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
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Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

I highlighted a little point from your post where you say "And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content..." because that is a huge problem, actually it is the heart of our complains. Sorcerers don't excel in any role in group content and at the end of the day group content (raiding) is the heart of end game PvE.

Our Magika DPS is the lowest.
Our Stamina DPS is not only low, it has pretty nothing going for it as most of the sorcerer abilities that do have stamina morphs are either unimpressive or just useless.
Tanking as sorcerer used to be fun, but was never exceptional. With Ward being nerfed it becomes pretty much impossible as our class has no other meaningful mitigation.
Healing as sorcerer is deplorable. Yes, ZoS buffed Matriarch's heals and gave us control over it but pretty much every boss with an AoE can one shot that poor bird.

Sorcerers are still the only class that doesn't have a Magika based spamable ability, thus we are forever stuck with a Destruction staff and Force Shock.
We have an unbelievable number of Abilities and passives that are useless or close to useless. Naming a couple... Rebate, Expert Summoner (Still can't understand why this passive excludes half the abilities from the summoning tree), Daedric Protection (was nerfed and is now pretty much useless), Dark Exchange (Possibly the worse class skill in the game), Crystal Blast (For gods sake, change this and make it a stamina morph), Daedric Mines (It was nerfed a while back, it wasn't great then, it is worse now.)...
Pets are a problem because they are toggles and they just... Don't survive fights, not to mention their DPS is still too low because they only scale from Magika and completely ignore spell power.

Understand, the problem is not so much that Ward is being heavily nerfed. The problem is, Sorcerer is already an under-powered class when compared to other classes, that we are getting heavy nerfs again and we are seeing no great buffs is a huge problem and it is problem we've gone through before more than once. Sorcs were extremely powerful when the game was released and ever since we pretty much only saw nerfs, most dictated from problems steaming from PvP.

Yup, I did state that, and I don't have an issue with it because we excel in other areas. However, if something was done to improve sorc DPS, I would be elated, I play a sorc as my main lol.

DKs don't have an execute... not every class has to be identical with different particle effects.

Definitely right about Dark Exchange lol.

Daedric mines is incredibly good in PvP, not every skill needs a PvP and PvE use.

Agree about some of the passives.

Pets suck, I stated that, and I want it changed. Huge proponent of buffing atronach to be a viable ultimate btw, and I feel this would bring sorc DPS up to par with other classes, without affecting PvP too much (and honestly, a PvP atro buff would be cool as well).

I understand that isn't the problem, but that's what I made a special point to address, because that is what everyone is whining about (at least a lot of them).

Molten Armaments is supposedly the DK's execute. I agree it is not as powerful as Sorcerer's execution, but executions are only used at the final portions of the fight. I'd rather have a good ability to replace force pulse than our execute.

Daedric Mines used to be great in PvP, but they made them so hard to activate sometimes it feels like enemies can tap dance on top of them before anything happens.

What areas do you think Sorcerers truly excel in PvE? Our DPS is the lowest, our survivability for tanking pretty much went out of the window with this nerfs to Ward, our one healing skill is a toggle, meaning it consumes two ability slots and the pet it summons has no survivability at all... Are you saying we have great utility? We don't... Not really.

Negate used to be our thing, it was extremely important until ZoS stomped all over it a few patches back. Let me ask you this... How many sorcs do you need in a raid? I will tell you that you need, ideally, at least 2-3 DKs with chains, standard and Magma Shell, 2-3 nightblades for Veil and 2-3 templars because of Nova. And then you can have up to 2-3 Sorcerers... But you don't need sorcerers... Our ults are pretty much irrelevant in a raid except for when we have a fully charged overload... Actually, used to happen a lot of me being asked to just run war horn or barrier... Not sure if that changed since I stopped playing, but I doubt it has.

Molten Armaments is no longer an execute, unless the change was reverted...?

Never had an issue with minefield personally... do you use the ranged morph with three mines? I use the one with 5 and I know "double-tap to cast abilities" (like the three mines morph) can be a pita (this will be a setting that can be changed soon).

Never stated that we truly excel in PvE group content compared to other classes (since vMA is PvE, technically we do excel there, though it is solo).. I said that we bring useful things to the group, and mentioned some specific areas where we do excel. Sorcs DO excel on lamias, we ARE used as part of SO speed run tactics utilizing streak, and we do give minor prophecy to the group (admittedly a rather small buff). I've heard we excel in the backyard of final vMoL boss (again cannot confirm).

I'm really not sure we disagree on too many things in regard to PvE. I would like to see sorcs buffed for PvE dps, don't get me wrong. The main intent of my original post was to point out some blatantly untrue things in the post I replied to.

Oh ops, they removed the execution portion of the DK ability? Haven't played my DK for ever, though I know I will be once DB drops.

And I don't think we disagree, I was just trying to understand what you thought Sorcerer's excel at, now I understand. My post is mainly in case @Wrobel ever bother reading this thread.

Yea it was removed in TG update iirc. Honestly, we don't excel at much in endgame group PvE I don't think, and I believe that my original post did not give people the impression that I felt that way.

Possible suggestions to boost sorc's utility and PvE DPS without buffing them too much in areas they already excel (solo PvE, solo/small group PvP):

Blood Magic also heals nearby allies for 50% of your max HP, when you use a Dark Magic ability.
- This helps make a lackluster passive quite a bit more appealing. Adds some much needed utility to the sorcerer in PvE. Minimal effect in PvE, especially considering the heal is halved.

Rebate replaced with a passive that increases a Sorcerer's critical chance by 8%, and pet damage by 15%.
- Helps stamsorcs get some more critical surge heals, and buffs sorcerer DPS all around, without a huge effect on PvP because crit isn't very good in PvP in the first place. Pet damage helps pet builds, but may have to be adjusted for atro with the new proposed atronach buffs.

Storm Atronach has initial impact damage boosted by 40%, single target damage boosted by 30%, and using ulimate also gives Major Berserk to the SUMMONER for 15 seconds.
- Now very viable as a DPS ultimate, and provides some much-needed group utility. An ally activating the synergy gives not only a buff to themselves but also the atro, very enticing synergy to press. Affects PvP, but most sorcerers already use something other than the atronach, and the atronach is already very easy to counter. Also gives a very serious reason to include Daedric Prey as part of a DPS rotation.

Just a few small ideas, but I think they would help address PvE sorc concerns without negatively affecting PvP or solo PvE too much (areas sorcs are already good in).

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

As sorcs are finding out, their class skills are now even being handed out ALL STA and MAG users. Templars had their primary heal nerfed and it was given to sorcs. This is a bad trend for the game period. It's also unfortunate that class defining skills keep getting nerfed as well, it just compounds the problem and pushes the envelope towards all classes being the same.

@Wrobel has a tough job for sure.

I completely understand why templars would be upset by the BoL nerf. And I can see where it would be upsetting to see the sorc get a similar ability, so know that this is not a personal attack. But at the same time, the addition of the new sorc heal maintained a unique feel with its own pros and cons.

The twilight has to actually be summoned in order to heal, therefore it needs to be slotted into at least 2 bars. The twilight also gets wrecked pretty easily even if you are mindful of positioning, and it can happen at some very inopportune times. The twilight heal is also directly tied to your magicka pool much like the sorc shield. Spell power does not affect the strength, so buffs to spell power do not improve the heal. The heal also targets the two lowest health targets.

BoL still just works as long as the templar isn't dead or CC'd, and I assume it is affected by spell power rating (I haven't tested as much). It also always targets the templar, and it does not need to be double slotted. However, templars still have quite a few passives and other healing utilities like shards and repentance so they are still pretty uniquely the best choice for healers in pvp or pve.

Given every other class a sorc like shield now, the sorc's claim to uniqueness is that it has another shield. The worst part is that even with the duration nerf it will be too invaluable to leave out of my and most sorc builds. So at the end of the day, ZOS will look at player builds and be like, "Look everyone still uses it, so it must not be that bad." While conveniently ignoring that we would flat out die without it.

Breath of Life doesn't work like that. It would be nice if it did, but its not an automatic heal self. I think they should at least give one morph of Surge a functional HoT and call it a day. I think all toggling ought to go the way of the Dodo which in turn should mean no Overload bar. I love overload but it would be really OP if you weren't toggle reliant, and could have pets on a 'buff bar'. Exchange would be nice if it were something you could use while blocking at the very least. I would have loved something like that on my Sorc tank. Just some quick thoughts.

Vangy · May 2016

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw, and I'm not even altmer (altmer would have ~1k more dps here). It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

This.
What cracked me up was the other dude's picture of a 70k Taking Aim..... a 1 shot mechanic nobody, not even a shield stacking sorc, can survive without a defensive sigil.

QFT lol. Was at work and started choking on my coffee when I saw the 70k hit from taking aim LOL. I could give you a 30k hp shield and you still gona die to that lolllololol!

cpuScientist · May 2016

lassitershawn wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.

In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...

If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?

I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.

Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.

What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....

This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...

Grao · May 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

Which is why the cookie cutter Sorc is not really being hit that hard.

In PvP I ran a pet cc sustain build and yes my shields were staying up pass 6 seconds on my self, as I was constantly cc'ing and trying to avoid damage and resummoning pets when necessary. Not huge DPS but most sustain builds aren't. The 20 second timer was a big reason this build worked as it would keep the oets safe and when they did manage to make it to me and begin their assault I usually had a shield on giving me time to react and survive giving me time to cast 2 pets and get off my heal. Pets take 1.5 seconds to recast so by the time I cast my shield and get the pet up I have to recast again. My tank build and my pet build is pretty much dead. Let's are stupid tbey will die and die and die, and while they were alive they were not doing enough honestly to have to be recasting shields every six seconds. Now just cc me kill my healing pet whose shield has already expired so one or 2 shot that guy and I'm all yours I am not healing through damage and my pet is not out to heal me. And my burst is all about time 6 second prey and ultimates and a hopeful oroc frag. All of these are timed, one of these can be purged. Pet Sorcs are really gone in both PvP and PVE. Thank sorcs, have you or anyone here tried it. We are not always standing there taking hits we are mobile, now if a boss hits us with a CC our shields will expire and we are dead cause we don't have health. So to tank we have to now go cookie cutter sword board and beg for shards. All of the alternatives work better on other classes, it leaves us with no reason to actually play a Sorc. We are just gimping ourselves for no good reason...

If the 20 second shield is such a non issue according to you and other players then what is the harm in leaving it at 20? You yourself saidwe were overturned in terms of damage in PvP, well they fixed that. You admitted it was not do much mitigation. So once again why nerf to 29 seconds?

I addressed pets, and agree they need to be fixed. Regarding your second post, I invested significant effort in stating how everything DIDN'T go right, and that was the only parse I had on hand to prove that sorcs don't "struggle" to hit 25k DPS. Altmer adds 1k. I had poor crit on multiple important abilities. We had poor warhorn uptime compared to some groups (I think we had two), and we had multiple people go down the portal, further prolonging the fight. Without overload, I could easily see a magsorc doing 35k+ on manti in more optimal conditions. You are right, we probably aren't reaching 40k on manti without overload. Besides the fact that that is easily possible WITH overload, we bring other things to the group besides our DPS.

Edit: 35k+ without overload, sorcerers absolutely devastate mantikora in a good group while using overload.

What do we bring to the group? I guess a raid group cam bring one of have us use warhorn and be the designated rezzer... Templars bring heals and minor fracture along with huge DPS and stamina return and bonus damage for the group, NB bring minor maim and huge DPS heals to the group major fracture, DK gives everyone major weapon and spell power freeing up slots major fracture increased fire damage chains and major DPS, Sorcs give minor prophecy and magicka regen (if they keep up empowered ward which would be silly to do and as many have said wards have no place in raids) and the lowest DPS... Everything a Sorc does is done better by other classes, why have a Sorc using crushing shock when if a NB was using funnel someone would be getting healed or you could have another set of chains or increase flame damage or another off healer. Why have a Sorc in any raid we do nothing as good as any other class and give the group nothing but minor prophecy....

This is a dead class, all of our decent class skills are now for use of other classes. Our shield our heal everything. Pets really have no use I just wanted to not be the cookie cutter Sorc, but that's the only way to be of any use at all. No diversity afforded at all, useless DAEDRIC summoning tree ofcourse besides bound aegis another toggle that has to go on, Dark magic you get the only good skill from the get go. And storm calling the only tree if any use OL crappy mages wrath all we got though, and liquid lightning a tiny little AOE dot... Use spell power options cause on our tiny bars no point taking up a slot for crit surge and it's crappy heals that are on cool down anyway...

It is sad to have to agree, but because sorcerers have the lowest DPS, the least fun or unique build and nearly no utility for the group, I have to agree the sorcerer is a dying class. Its been nerfed in every large patch from the first to the last and it is sad, we went all the way from best magika DPS to worse.

It is the reason I abandoned the game after over a year playing it. I love my sorcerer and had pretty much every achievement I could possibly unlock at the time, I had pretty much every skill leveled for both morphs, every weapon, every armor... I didn't want to restart from scratch because Zenimax decided the class would suck. I may return with DB because I will be able to level up new characters more easily... I don't know.

I am also tired of ZoS's promises. Everytime they nerf sorcerers they promise buffs to compensate and yet those never seem to come. Instead they make the nerf less significant and everyone just eats it. They bluntly lie to us... It sucks.

Valrien · May 2016

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262908/idea-to-possibly-improve-sorcerer-dps/p1

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

@ZOS_Finn

Please read this thread. Please

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).

Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.

Valrien · May 2016

Grao wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

1. Fear lasts all of one second if you CC break it. Recast shields after. If you get feared and don't break free, and the NB has half a brain, your shield is only lasting the first 2-3 seconds of the fear anyways.

2. Agreed, each class does. The sorc mitigation technique in PvP is still good, and I barely noticed a change. IF YOU ARE PLAYING A GOOD PLAYER, YOUR SHIELD WASN'T LASTING SIX SECONDS ANYWAYS. Against someone who can't break your shield in 6 seconds... they are dead meat anyways.

3. And you would have survived that taking aim with a shield up...? Not unless it was an 80k shield. That move has like a 10 second charge up time, and oneshots anybody that isn't a bloody DK tank holding block. Roll dodge, interrupt, or pick up the defense sigil.

4. Total myth that sorcs struggle to break 25k out of overload.

This is my first and so far only attempt on manti since going to a meteor build for most content. Also, my crit is ~75% with minor prophecy up, so my Force Pulse, Shooting Star, and Mage's Wrath all had very bad crit. On Bloodspawn, solo, with zero buffs save taunt, I will always get above 27k. I am far from an amazing sorc btw. It is true, sorcs do not have the same DPS capabilities as the other mag classes and stam DKs in PvE, but it is a myth that we struggle to hit 20/25/whatever DPS on sorc, and we bring other things to the group. On Serpent for example, sorc is excellent on lamias. In SO speed runs sorcs can streak across the bridge and to levers, saving time. Sorc gives 3% crit to everyone in the group. I've heard that sorc is excellent for the backyard of the final vMoL boss (can't personally confirm, only been to second on vet, got to around 20%). And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

You ARE right that pets suck, especially with the new shield changes. Instead of trying to create mass hysteria (which is a very NB thing to do, so don't do it) about sorc nerfs, how about starting a thread to suggest that the ward duration stays the same on pets? Or is even stronger on pets? Or that pets shouldn't be toggles? Or that pets should have like... 50k HP because their AI sucks so bad...? Pets do need major buffs until they are worth using (on builds not 100% dedicated to pet use), you are right on this.

Sorc did get nerfed, because it was overtuned in PvP (though as I've stated before, mainly our burst through loss of proxy/DB/curse not getting buffed by thaum, not our defense so much). I am not arguing that point. I play a sorc, and love the class, I just have a very different opinion about us than seemingly most sorcs do.

I highlighted a little point from your post where you say "And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content..." because that is a huge problem, actually it is the heart of our complains. Sorcerers don't excel in any role in group content and at the end of the day group content (raiding) is the heart of end game PvE.

Our Magika DPS is the lowest.
Our Stamina DPS is not only low, it has pretty nothing going for it as most of the sorcerer abilities that do have stamina morphs are either unimpressive or just useless.
Tanking as sorcerer used to be fun, but was never exceptional. With Ward being nerfed it becomes pretty much impossible as our class has no other meaningful mitigation.
Healing as sorcerer is deplorable. Yes, ZoS buffed Matriarch's heals and gave us control over it but pretty much every boss with an AoE can one shot that poor bird.

Sorcerers are still the only class that doesn't have a Magika based spamable ability, thus we are forever stuck with a Destruction staff and Force Shock.
We have an unbelievable number of Abilities and passives that are useless or close to useless. Naming a couple... Rebate, Expert Summoner (Still can't understand why this passive excludes half the abilities from the summoning tree), Daedric Protection (was nerfed and is now pretty much useless), Dark Exchange (Possibly the worse class skill in the game), Crystal Blast (For gods sake, change this and make it a stamina morph), Daedric Mines (It was nerfed a while back, it wasn't great then, it is worse now.)...
Pets are a problem because they are toggles and they just... Don't survive fights, not to mention their DPS is still too low because they only scale from Magika and completely ignore spell power.

Understand, the problem is not so much that Ward is being heavily nerfed. The problem is, Sorcerer is already an under-powered class when compared to other classes, that we are getting heavy nerfs again and we are seeing no great buffs is a huge problem and it is problem we've gone through before more than once. Sorcs were extremely powerful and very unique when the game was released and ever since we pretty much saw heavy nerfs, with every large patch.

At the same time non-class abilities were buffed or changed and are pretty much copies of what sorcerers have in their kits, so the class doesn't even feel unique anymore as pets are just not very popular as they are just plain boring and... Not terribly useful. I have no issues with nerfs as long as they are accompanied by buffs and changes that fix the class's problems. The issue is, this problems I am pointing out are the same problems I've been pointing out for over a year now, not only here in the forums, but also during ESO Live and conversations a guild I was part of had with ZoS... And still there are no fixes.

Oh yeah, and also this ^

Derra · May 2016

lassitershawn wrote: »

And while we do not excel as much as other builds in group content, we are awesome solo (maelstrom) and will continue to excel in maelstrom.

Have you done vMSA on sorc on the pts?

I have and it´s strenuous compared to live. Just about every spawn past round 2 needs more than 6s of shield time. Which results in every spawn past round 2 i now have to cast minimum one extra ward or two (because time lost to cast ward not dpsing results in more incoming dmg) and every spawn costs 1-2 extra second which adds up quite a bit over a whole run.
Also the big trump card being overload receives a passive nerf bc of this. You need your shield up to stay safe basically which results in a ~15% dps loss while overloading.

Smart people will just switch to mag nightblade that has a 100% reliable heal and about the same shieldstrengh as sorcs for vmsa now. That´s whats going to happen.
NB kills the bosses equally fast while having a higher fault tolerance with the next patch.

cpuScientist · May 2016

Valrien wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262908/idea-to-possibly-improve-sorcerer-dps/p1

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

@ZOS_Finn

Please read this thread. Please

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************

Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

Sorcs shields are useless in PvE outside of vMA. You are a bad Sorc if you use shields in a competent group (in a crappy group it's different).

Healers are made to heal, you should rely on your healer. Realistically you don't need stat points into health. Twice-Born Star gives about a thousand, and Nerien'eth instead of Kena will give the same with VERY similar results...so if you need more health, do that. Scraping the bottom of the barrel with 16.8k is still PLENTY of health for anyone to survive. I don't know what groups you're running with but they're clearly not good if you're using damage shields.

Oh he has said many times that he is usually the tank so shields no useless oay attention. And if you are using the the random group finder you are going to want those shields for sure. Now if you have a good group and have yourself a healer you can depend on not one that is trying to post high dps FTC numbers then good for you whoopdeedoo. I am sitting at 17k and on my actual DPS setup have to soley rely on my healer without my shield or i can take the pressure off and this allow the healer to do more DPS, sure I run with very competent groups usually and I don't necessarily neeeeed the shield when our healer is doing their job however if I am running my pets and nkt using my shield they die if I am the tank I will die so once again the only thing left viable is cookie cutter OL destro Sorc. Every other class has actual options that are viable and can be used and not hurt the group, a Sorc has 1. Any attempt to find some niche that could be viable is now DEAD. We have gotten nothing but nerfed, and if this goes live will not recover.

cpuScientist · May 2016

Also how are we excelling at Maelstrom lol, a NB and DK are now better sircs than Sorcs. A DK will be able to reflect on top of having a shield now, I think they will win the Maelstrom title now, the NB is already easy and will only get easier. My Templar will get easier and my Sorc well he is just a weaker version of everyone else. Maelstrom I would say we are dead last in there now.

cpuScientist · May 2016

Templars and NB's have 3 options for spammable abilities dps, DK has 2. Sorcs have uno one 1. All three of the other classes have heals through damage with no cool down and reliable to proc all the time we do not all other classes have SHIELDS such as we do remains to be seen if anulment is better but wow can't believe it's even debatable. Someone what is the Sorc advantage? Why stay sorc besides the fact that you have put time into it? I almost feel like this is why they took away vet ranks so we can have an easier time getting up a better class LOL!

Grao · May 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

Templars and NB's have 3 options for spammable abilities dps, DK has 2. Sorcs have uno one 1. All three of the other classes have heals through damage with no cool down and reliable to proc all the time we do not all other classes have SHIELDS such as we do remains to be seen if anulment is better but wow can't believe it's even debatable. Someone what is the Sorc advantage? Why stay sorc besides the fact that you have put time into it? I almost feel like this is why they took away vet ranks so we can have an easier time getting up a better class LOL!

Sorcerers have a spamable DPS ability? That is new to me...

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · May 2016

Grao wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Templars and NB's have 3 options for spammable abilities dps, DK has 2. Sorcs have uno one 1. All three of the other classes have heals through damage with no cool down and reliable to proc all the time we do not all other classes have SHIELDS such as we do remains to be seen if anulment is better but wow can't believe it's even debatable. Someone what is the Sorc advantage? Why stay sorc besides the fact that you have put time into it? I almost feel like this is why they took away vet ranks so we can have an easier time getting up a better class LOL!

Sorcerers have a spamable DPS ability? That is new to me...

I guess that's mages wrath, but that one isn't near viable until 20% or less hp.

Derra · May 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Templars and NB's have 3 options for spammable abilities dps, DK has 2. Sorcs have uno one 1. All three of the other classes have heals through damage with no cool down and reliable to proc all the time we do not all other classes have SHIELDS such as we do remains to be seen if anulment is better but wow can't believe it's even debatable. Someone what is the Sorc advantage? Why stay sorc besides the fact that you have put time into it? I almost feel like this is why they took away vet ranks so we can have an easier time getting up a better class LOL!

Sorcerers have a spamable DPS ability? That is new to me...

I guess that's mages wrath, but that one isn't near viable until 20% or less hp.

Counting 3 for NB and Temp it´s most likely staff options were addet to this.