Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

Grao

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

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Grao wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Alright, since the discussion is turning a little towards What should benefit Stamina Builds and what should benefit Magika builds I think I should write down what I thought the game originally intended.

For me Stamina builds were supposed to heavily rely on weapon skills for their damage abilities and the use class skills, magika skills to buff their damage damage, survivability and utility. Thus the damage of Stamina based weapons would be very high.

On the other hand, magika users would rely mainly in class skills for their general build and utilize weapon skills for buffs and debuffs, heals, etc.

Stamina build would then vary depending on your weapon combination choices and how those choices interacted with the few stamina class abilities you have access to and the magika skills you are able to maintain in your bar, not to mention class passives.

Magika builds would similarly vary according to their use of class skills being supported by magika weapon skills, maintaining their stamina pool for blocking and running.

For me that is how it was supposed to be... Unfortunately it isn't like that. First weapons have no ultimates which was always very odd to me as weapons are built similarly in number of skills etc to class trees. They should have ultimates of their own that were related to the weapon. Having Ultimates for weapons would add tremendous diversity to builds.

Second, the weapon skills general DPS never seemed to keep up with Magika DPS (Except when Bows were ridiculous and that got nerfed very fast). How should the DPS pyramid be then? Well, melee DPS is supposed to be slightly more powerful than ranged DPS because melee DPS is under greater risk by being close to the enemy. At the same time magika DPS should be slightly higher than Stamina DPS because the armor used by stamina builds is slightly more powerful than the armor provided by light armor. That, I think, was supposed to be the balance. so:

Bow DPS < Melee Stamina DPS = Magika Ranged DPS < Melee Magika DPS

And every class DPS in the end should be reasonably in pair with each other within each of those categories. That isn't really the case and it has never been...

Now, I can't speak for the other classes for I haven't played them long enough, I can speak for sorcerers though as I played one since before the game was released.

For the magika sorcerers, our first great issue is the lack of direct hit, instant cast, class skill. Other classes have them and we don't (Don't tell me Crystal Frags is it, it isn't). Since we don't have that we are forced to rely on a weapon skill which supports only the ranged DPS style. Now, if the class had a single target, magika based skill, one of its morphs could be ranged and another could be melee, increasing play style variety.

On the other hand stamina sorcerers lack abilities and passives that interact well with weapon skills.

Bound Armaments is actually a pretty good skill, the increase of the stamina pool is a good DPS increase and I guess the increase of damage from heavy attacks does increase DPS as well, even if not significantly.

Unfortunately the summoning tree suffers with a good number of passives that aren't at all useful either for stamina or magika builds. Those passives focus too heavily on pets completely forgetting that only three out of the 6 skills in the three are actually pets.

And then the Dark Magic Tree. That ZoS made Dark Conversion into the skill with a stamina morph is an insult... I am sorry, but there is no other way to put it. That skill is useless for magika users and stamina users alike. I don't think even PvPers use it because usually standing still is bad at any time...

Why is it that Crystal Shard doesn't have a stamina based morph? Maybe make it a proc skill like Crystal Fragments that increases the damage of your next light attack by a great amount? Call it Crystal blade or whatever.

As for the passives, I have no issue with those, but it would be interesting if Exploitation could grant Weapon Crit as well.

Next we have the Storm calling tree and I will go straight to Critical Surge. It is actually a great skill, if you fix the bugs where it isn't procing properly. It would also be great if it wasn't so magika taxing. As for Thundering presence, all and all it is a nice skill and I do love the changes made to it this newest patch. Seems pretty interesting.

As for the passives, they are mostly alright, except that Expert Mage is definitely weaker for Stamina sorcerers...

Now, I realize that there are few stamina morphs to class skills and that few passives actually help, but to those that think that is a huge issue, I remind you that you have three weapon choices to create build diversity, magika DPS has one real weapon choice. Yes, we use dual wield to boost our spell damage, but the tree has one passive that is useful and nothing else and we only do this because somehow dual wield gives more spell power than a staff, which makes no sense at all...

Alas, as I was saying, we have one real weapon choice, destro staff and sorcerers are forced to have a destro staff none of our builds will ever work without Force Shock. So... Sorcerer Magika build is limited by the weapons we can choose and Sorcerer stamina build is limited by the class skills you can actually use in your build.

For stamina build we have to focus on tweaking which skills have stam morphs... Dark Conversion probaly shouldn't be it... It is a useless skill.

For Magika build, we need an efficient single target ranged / melee spell in the dark magic tree.

Give stamina builds a crystal shard morph and give magika sorcs a new spell to replace dark conversion... Direct damage, single target, one melee morph, one ranged morph, the melee morph slightly higher DPS, the ranged morph providing maybe a slight bonus to the sustain provided by blood magic.

Everything he said needs to be done. ZOS this is your game plan follow it to the letter

And also make pets non toggles that are desummoned on death and to use their skill you have to swap to the bar with the skill obviously, and the twilight tormentor acts more like inferno or whatever it is for DK that shoots out a fireball but instead make it a mini frag. Boom done. Sorc is good and fine. Everyone happy!

Yeah, I didn't get into pets on this post as I discussed them extensively before. I have to say though, that the fact the pets actually do have active skills that you can control does compensate a little for the fact they are toggles. I haven't actually tested numbers my self, but if the damage the pet abilities do equates to the damage done by other AoEs / Single Target Damage, I think it sounds pretty good. Same for the pet's heal. If anything, I would remove the heal from the clannfear as lore-wise clannfears don't heal. I think the Clannfear should have a on command taunt. That... That would be amazing.

a on command AoE Taunt.....gods i would actually pay for that, i mean, straight up just throw my money at zos

The game doesn't actually have AoE taunts, so it would be a single target one. Still, it would be super useful for a tank sorcerer. You could have your pet take bosses large hits and die for the summoner instead of the summoner having to tank the hit.

Lord_Eomer

After these shield nerf, there will be sorcers tanks anymore..

After twilight healing change I become much happier but after shield changes its gonna worst for Magicka sorcerer s..

byrom101b16_ESO

The six second shield 'fix' is beyond pathetic.

There seems to be no capacity at ZOS to think through the full range of consequences to decisions like this, and you are very lucky if they fix their broken decisions later.

It has been suggested many times, that the only real problem with shields was stacking and the fact they cannot be critted.

The fix for this is simplicity itself, but ZOS refuse to do it without messing up other areas of play because it appears that they don't want to be seen to be agreeing with their players (or whetever their motivation is...).

SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

That fixes PvP without borking PvE, and makes shield stacking a short-duration option for emergencies only, especially with the bar swap for mutliple shield applications so often used by people.

How is that hard?

ZOS - your solution is lazy and constitutes a nerf with no value.

Tdroid

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The six second shield 'fix' is beyond pathetic.
SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

Alternatively:

SHIELD FIX 102
1: Remove shield stacking

Rakkul

This seems like the pivotal moment for the class.
Does the development team listen to the extensive and knowledgeable posts raised by, but not limited to, RinaldoGandolphi & Grao?
Or do they continue down their existing path?

This current path ignores the pve aspect of class, particularly in the damage mitigation role of a group tank.
Now tanks are probably the least played role in the game, heck in any game, with groups very much reliant on a good tank to help get through the encounter.

So amongst the many changes seen to the Sorc over the years, there is now a near 70% reduction in shield duration, a change which has been announced without any apparent thought to the pve content.
This change has hit the headlines on the forum, serving to drown out other unwelcome adjustments to the class.

Zenimax, there is more to this game than pvp. Please expand your reasoning to include pve group roles. It is not only the Tank that suffers - it is the whole group which relies on this critical role.

There are many other pve games out there.
This statement often leads to two responses. "Go and play them then" or "I'm leaving this to play one"
Both have the same outcome.

To avoid more of the above, I urge you to reconsider the current DB Sorc changes for pve gameplay. I ask you to study the posts by the two authors mentioned above, but also extensive thoughts from other experienced and long serving Sorc players.


Then we have the pvp aspect, which is a different world entirely to the more structured pve environment.

PvP players will always shout the loudest. This is not a criticism, it just reflects the nature of the players who like to pit themselves against others. I admire good pvp players, who are able to react instinctively to the often chaotic environment around them. These players are highly motivated to get the win and of course this spills over into the forums.

Frustrations after a losing battle are often taken out on other classes in these forums. Not all should be ignored, as various classes do evolve with different gear and pvp environments. But neither should they be taken as the whole picture - a he who shouts the loudest gets the most approach.

As an example, the change to the shield duration seems to fly in the face of actual pvp game play. Shields didn't last 20 secs in pvp battles, they needed to be refreshed every few seconds as you are focused on.
What will change here? - Nothing.
Will Sorcs who habitually refreshed their shields every few seconds suddenly forget to do this? Of course not.

As such this change, which seems to have been driven solely by one aspect of the game, seems to ignore actual pvp game play as well as damaging critical pve aspects.

The inclusion of shields for all only seems to add to this catering to the loudest forum voice, rather than attempts at maintaining class individuality.
Proceeding down this path of a one size fits all leads only to a growing similarity in classes, going against the wide class diversity that an mmo should have.

I realize that not everyone will agree with the above. I don't take offence at differing opinions with reasoning and politeness. How else are we to have meaningful debate?

I also understand the Zenimax path for the Sorc may be different from my own wishes. I have said my piece and will pause the game for now, monitoring it only until some of the excellent player suggestions for the class are actioned.

Malanor

I was trying to make StamSorc for selfpunishing playthrough but god how i overrated stamsorcs capabilities.

1. Pets are junk on the magicka build (mostly). But when their dmg scales of the max magicka only it's a bit of joke. Make their dmg scaling from both max magicka and spell damage (max stamina and weapon dmg if it's bigger). As Mountain blessing and burning light.
2. Dark deal and it's morphs is a bit of weird. Why it has channeling time for 1 sec. It's so dumb. Just make it instant. It's so frustruating when i am trying to tank as a stamsorc using this ability for utility because i can't mitigate incoming dmg while blocking with this spell channeling. There would no any broken things if it's changed to instant.

It's not so frustruating as a lack of stam orientated abilities but these two minor things are so bad in general that it kills any wish for me to experimentate with potentially intresting builds

byrom101b16_ESO

Tdroid wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The six second shield 'fix' is beyond pathetic.
SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

Alternatively:

SHIELD FIX 102
1: Remove shield stacking

That would mean you'd have to have a system where shields didn't replace each other considering the number of proccable and second-person cast shields in the game. That would mean Sorcs - THE shield or die class would get far less benefit from these other shields than classes with other efffective defences who would get those shields on top.

The LA shield as proposed is already a massive and stupid boost to other class builds who can now get that shield on top of everything else they normally (and effectively) do to survive - it's a farce.

MagBlades with an 'all weather' shield - it's laughable game-imbalancing negligence.

There are already plenty of comments about how much more prevalent the anti-shield set is going to be with this change... and they aren't complaints - they are playground-level taunts from those anticipating Sorc-wrecking in PvP.

One only has to read Wroble's own statement on his reasoning to see he just cannot see beyond PvP... his entire justification for a universal change to shields is based on a PvP argument.

Why doesn't he just change the way they work in PvP?

That's the no-brainer question isn't it? How long was this change thought about - 5 seconds!?

I have also considered vMA too - 9% drop in damage on many opponents from the Slayer change, increased shield spamming (to cover for the various one shots that can occur otherwise with a 64/0 Mag or Stam/Health build ratio our dps must have to be high enough...) requiring more resource regen that hits damage output... there is no effective way to effectively compensate for such a large dps loss accompanied with an increased resource drain.

Wroble wants the only class in the game that is heavily reliant on shields for survival to either concentrate on offence OR defence in a solo dungeon where you MUST HAVE BOTH to succeed... and then passes this specific class nerf off as a 'general' change to how shields work whilst boosting every non-sorc LA user to have Sorc suvivability on top of their clas abilities that already serve that purpose.

How can you explain such targetted nerfing? Where is the Sorcerer-class spammable magica or stamina attack; reliable heal; capacity to dodge... who else has to use so many tooggles requriing increased bar switching which eats into shield+dps duration etc. etc? Every other class will still have their various damage mitgation, avoidance and heal setups in addition to this new option to go heavy shield... but Sorcs won't - they will be forced to spam short duration shields out of a complete lack of other options in build - meanwhile if they try to compensate with armour choices, more resource regen or other tweaks, they will be punished by further droping down the sustain dps tree to the point they won't be viable choices for top-end PvE content.

Every other class will be able to be both offensive and defensive at the same time EXCEPT Sorcerer!

Stam Sorcs and pet users are even more dead in the water with this garbage decision.

6 seconds could have been made a Cyrodil buff-only thing and the myopic obssession with PvP would have been served, even if it would favour 3/4 classes in an unbalnced fashion. That would have been bad enough... but no - the PvE part of the game - by far the largest part of game content and player activity gets kicked in the groin as well for no reason.

NONE.

I could have seen significant problem mulling over the likely impacts with nothing more than 15 minutes and a strong coffee...

If you really think that the PvE impact of this is not a problem - explain what 'PvE problem' this nerf serves?

...and if you can't - at least have the good grace to change this proposed change, if not admit you didn't see it or didn't consider it important.

Orious13

I've been a stam sorc since before launch and over the past 2 years I've been slowly removing sorc skills from my toolbars and now in the PTS I pretty much have only weapon, alliance war, or guild skills. I am only VR15 on the character with ~130 CP mainly because ever sense my friends left the game a year ago or so I've been mostly solo playing (even in Cyrodill). I actually leveled probably 30+ levels by only playing in the alliance warzones. But I digress...

In case you haven't heard, ZoS plans on making Sorc improvements (even stam sorcs) at a later PTS incremental patch.

All I will say is the class has been very fun to play from the bat swarm zerg days, to the unkillable DKs, all the way up to the now VD/PD zerg time. I've always known the stam sorc route is probably the most difficult road and the least conventional in terms of classes (which is why I picked it from day 1), but it is always satisfying when you prevail against more streamlined classes or defeat bosses without the "trinity".

Now, since I'm not VR16 and do not have access to all of the good sets without PTS, my experience will most likely improve once the DB update goes live and I automatically have 160 CP needed for the top gear.

I look forward to the future sorc improvements. Can't get any worse than this, which is great. (knock on wood)

STEVIL

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The fix for this is simplicity itself, but ZOS refuse to do it without messing up other areas of play because it appears that they don't want to be seen to be agreeing with their players (or whetever their motivation is...).

SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

That fixes PvP without borking PvE, and makes shield stacking a short-duration option for emergencies only, especially with the bar swap for mutliple shield applications so often used by people.

How is that hard?

ZOS - your solution is lazy and constitutes a nerf with no value.

Here is where i disagree.

The suggestions listed above are PERFECT for leaving the existing one way only meta of max damage max crit blammo ignore sustain and frankly who cares about resist bc shield cracking is what matters model.

In that meta, the "only" optimal dbl-mundus TBS is the thief shadow.

And so the "only" armor trait worth it is impen, only wpn trait is nirn etc etc etc.

Or whatever.

I dont think zos efforts ACROSS THE PATCH are laxy but quite the opposite. I think they are trying to change the existing meta not just add to it. They are trying to create a much more dynamic combat play where everything has strengths and weakness to be exploited and trade-offs abound ubiquitously.

It would be EASY to just tweak here and there and allow the current meta to carry on into stagnation with a new better bang set or two per dlc... that would be easy and lazy and likely long term fail to remain dynamic and lively.

What they are doing this and the last patch may be many things but lazy is not one of them.

Grao

STEVIL wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The fix for this is simplicity itself, but ZOS refuse to do it without messing up other areas of play because it appears that they don't want to be seen to be agreeing with their players (or whetever their motivation is...).

SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

That fixes PvP without borking PvE, and makes shield stacking a short-duration option for emergencies only, especially with the bar swap for mutliple shield applications so often used by people.

How is that hard?

ZOS - your solution is lazy and constitutes a nerf with no value.

Here is where i disagree.

The suggestions listed above are PERFECT for leaving the existing one way only meta of max damage max crit blammo ignore sustain and frankly who cares about resist bc shield cracking is what matters model.

In that meta, the "only" optimal dbl-mundus TBS is the thief shadow.

And so the "only" armor trait worth it is impen, only wpn trait is nirn etc etc etc.

Or whatever.

I dont think zos efforts ACROSS THE PATCH are laxy but quite the opposite. I think they are trying to change the existing meta not just add to it. They are trying to create a much more dynamic combat play where everything has strengths and weakness to be exploited and trade-offs abound ubiquitously.

It would be EASY to just tweak here and there and allow the current meta to carry on into stagnation with a new better bang set or two per dlc... that would be easy and lazy and likely long term fail to remain dynamic and lively.

What they are doing this and the last patch may be many things but lazy is not one of them.

They are trying to change PvP meta while completely ignoring PvE viability and the general uniqueness of an entire class.

Minalan

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The six second shield 'fix' is beyond pathetic.

There seems to be no capacity at ZOS to think through the full range of consequences to decisions like this, and you are very lucky if they fix their broken decisions later.

It has been suggested many times, that the only real problem with shields was stacking and the fact they cannot be critted.

The fix for this is simplicity itself, but ZOS refuse to do it without messing up other areas of play because it appears that they don't want to be seen to be agreeing with their players (or whetever their motivation is...).

SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

That fixes PvP without borking PvE, and makes shield stacking a short-duration option for emergencies only, especially with the bar swap for mutliple shield applications so often used by people.

How is that hard?

ZOS - your solution is lazy and constitutes a nerf with no value.

What most people don't understand is that shields have no resistances, making them critable would make them worthless. They're already usually gone in one hit, I'd rather that one hit not eat into my health too.

Just fix the stacking and be done, applying secondary shields wont have any effect unless the first shield is down, or let a subsequent cast replace the first instead of adding to it (not in using group buff shields)

Seriously, if they don't fix it. Unsub and put 'Wrobel and his stupid shield fix' as the reason when you send feedback to the customer support link. There's no point in playing if you can't enjoy the content, and I won't join the ranks of gankblades.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Grao wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The fix for this is simplicity itself, but ZOS refuse to do it without messing up other areas of play because it appears that they don't want to be seen to be agreeing with their players (or whetever their motivation is...).

SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

That fixes PvP without borking PvE, and makes shield stacking a short-duration option for emergencies only, especially with the bar swap for mutliple shield applications so often used by people.

How is that hard?

ZOS - your solution is lazy and constitutes a nerf with no value.

Here is where i disagree.

The suggestions listed above are PERFECT for leaving the existing one way only meta of max damage max crit blammo ignore sustain and frankly who cares about resist bc shield cracking is what matters model.

In that meta, the "only" optimal dbl-mundus TBS is the thief shadow.

And so the "only" armor trait worth it is impen, only wpn trait is nirn etc etc etc.

Or whatever.

I dont think zos efforts ACROSS THE PATCH are laxy but quite the opposite. I think they are trying to change the existing meta not just add to it. They are trying to create a much more dynamic combat play where everything has strengths and weakness to be exploited and trade-offs abound ubiquitously.

It would be EASY to just tweak here and there and allow the current meta to carry on into stagnation with a new better bang set or two per dlc... that would be easy and lazy and likely long term fail to remain dynamic and lively.

What they are doing this and the last patch may be many things but lazy is not one of them.

They are trying to change PvP meta while completely ignoring PvE viability and the general uniqueness of an entire class.

^ This, they completely ignore any and all balance between classes in PvE. If only they could do something to make classes viable in both places. Maybe something as crazy as separating PvP and PvE skills.....

Valrien

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262908/idea-to-possibly-improve-sorcerer-dps/p1

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel

@ZOS_Finn

Please read this thread. Please

byrom101b16_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The fix for this is simplicity itself, but ZOS refuse to do it without messing up other areas of play because it appears that they don't want to be seen to be agreeing with their players (or whetever their motivation is...).

SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

That fixes PvP without borking PvE, and makes shield stacking a short-duration option for emergencies only, especially with the bar swap for mutliple shield applications so often used by people.

How is that hard?

ZOS - your solution is lazy and constitutes a nerf with no value.

Here is where i disagree.

The suggestions listed above are PERFECT for leaving the existing one way only meta of max damage max crit blammo ignore sustain and frankly who cares about resist bc shield cracking is what matters model.

In that meta, the "only" optimal dbl-mundus TBS is the thief shadow.

And so the "only" armor trait worth it is impen, only wpn trait is nirn etc etc etc.

Or whatever.

I dont think zos efforts ACROSS THE PATCH are laxy but quite the opposite. I think they are trying to change the existing meta not just add to it. They are trying to create a much more dynamic combat play where everything has strengths and weakness to be exploited and trade-offs abound ubiquitously.

It would be EASY to just tweak here and there and allow the current meta to carry on into stagnation with a new better bang set or two per dlc... that would be easy and lazy and likely long term fail to remain dynamic and lively.

What they are doing this and the last patch may be many things but lazy is not one of them.

Thanks for entirely missing the point.

They are LAZY - they change one easily programmable thing for PvP purposes only - following the whinging nubs who cannot deal with no-heal, high cost to 'escape', no stamina Sorcs in PvP by having their ONE really effective defensive skill nerfed in a way that frags PvE.

They didn't even bother to think of the consequences outside of PvP.

LAZY.

They have come up with the easiest thing to programme...

Let me say that again - LAZY.

They have buffed every other class build that wears LA with an extra shield.

Now that everyone who plays magicka builds has a spammable shield - perhaps everyone should lose their class heals and other unique survivability options - or the Sorc should get theirs?

NO?

Try looking at the issue holistically before you comment - it will help paint a clearer picture of something other than your gleeful delight that you don't play a Sorc. as your main.

STEVIL

So if it was just taking the laxiest approach to tone down pvp sorcs, why again did they laxily bother to change annulment and the other shields for was it dk, including upping annul with allowing pnysical too??

Somehow it seems the just laxy explanation doesnt meet the facts of what they did, to me at least.

But it clearly does for you so, enjoy.

lassitershawn

Really want to understand what the big deal is here...

- Small nerf in PvP, barely noticeable nerf versus a good opponent that knows how to do damage. Real nerf to sorcs was the nerf to our burst by getting rid of our Dawnbreaker of Smiting and Proximity Detonation. If you are competent, defenses in PvP should not be hurt. Yes, I played on PTS, and I did not really feel 6 second shields as a problem. We were overtuned in PvP last update, and we are going to have to work harder for a good burst now, especially since sustain will be more important this update with new poisons and cost increases to all skills (I do not know if this is a bug or not yet). Also having to refresh shields more often will hurt our ability to pressure enemies. I suspect magicka sorcs will still be excellent in solo PvP and also group PvP a lot more now with the new AWESOME negate.

- No nerf in competitive group PvE. Sorcs have six bar slots in PvE, because we have to slot two toggles. If you want to deal competitive DPS, you have no room for a shield. The ONLY place I use a shield in PvE is vMA and lamias on Serpent. I run minimum HP (16,809) and by simply not standing in red and trusting my healers and tank, I'm always fine. Lamias on Serpent are easy, so it isn't really an issue anyways, and in vMA if you are taking heavy incoming damage your shield will not last 6 seconds anyways. The only place the nerf will hurt in vMA is if you are DPSing and not taking heavy damage, and have to spend more time refreshing shields. And honestly Power Surge may very well keep you in good shape during these situations (after minor prophecy I have ~75% crit chance in vMA). Sorcs will still be excellent in vMA if for no reason other than Overload is easily the best tool in vMA.

The real issue with sorc changes is that stamsorc still sucks. I don't get why people want to play a stam sorcerer, but there are plenty that do, and as long as this is true stamsorc should be made more viable.

SwaminoNowlino

@lassitershawn THIS^^^! May be the best post I have seen on this topic. If you're doing a true DPS test running what you would in a dungeon, and you're stopping to put shields up, then of course your numbers are going to be low. Sorcs have shields but don't necessarily need to run them all the time, they're for those extra hard situations like VMA or SO. Nightblades don't run cloak in dungeons, specs shouldn't be stopping DPS to put up shields when you have a tank and healer. I agree that sorcs need a hard hitting direct cast like the Templar jabs, but the shield thing is just so minor for everyone to be upset. I have a level 45 Magicka sorc that I benched because it was boring, but I am truly looking forward to playing it in DB as its more dynamic. Standing behind shields waiting for CF was boring.
I hated waiting for CF to proc, so I'd like to see another direct damage ability that's not pets. Good sorcs can obliterate someone in 6 seconds if executed right. I just can't see the shield thing being a huge issue.

The Sorc community should be advocating more for a force pulse esq class ability and screaming for Stam sorc updates. Id like to see some of the illusion tree skills from Skyrim brought over for the sorc. Imagine making the pet abilities have stamina morphs like the skills from Skyrims conjugation line. Huge potential here

NativeJoe

lassitershawn wrote: »

Really want to understand what the big deal is here...

- Small nerf in PvP, barely noticeable nerf versus a good opponent that knows how to do damage. Real nerf to sorcs was the nerf to our burst by getting rid of our Dawnbreaker of Smiting and Proximity Detonation. If you are competent, defenses in PvP should not be hurt. Yes, I played on PTS, and I did not really feel 6 second shields as a problem. We were overtuned in PvP last update, and we are going to have to work harder for a good burst now, especially since sustain will be more important this update with new poisons and cost increases to all skills (I do not know if this is a bug or not yet). Also having to refresh shields more often will hurt our ability to pressure enemies. I suspect magicka sorcs will still be excellent in solo PvP and also group PvP a lot more now with the new AWESOME negate.

- No nerf in competitive group PvE. Sorcs have six bar slots in PvE, because we have to slot two toggles. If you want to deal competitive DPS, you have no room for a shield. The ONLY place I use a shield in PvE is vMA and lamias on Serpent. I run minimum HP (16,809) and by simply not standing in red and trusting my healers and tank, I'm always fine. Lamias on Serpent are easy, so it isn't really an issue anyways, and in vMA if you are taking heavy incoming damage your shield will not last 6 seconds anyways. The only place the nerf will hurt in vMA is if you are DPSing and not taking heavy damage, and have to spend more time refreshing shields. And honestly Power Surge may very well keep you in good shape during these situations (after minor prophecy I have ~75% crit chance in vMA). Sorcs will still be excellent in vMA if for no reason other than Overload is easily the best tool in vMA.

The real issue with sorc changes is that stamsorc still sucks. I don't get why people want to play a stam sorcerer, but there are plenty that do, and as long as this is true stamsorc should be made more viable.

If you guys want to understand the issue... you guys have to read.

GriM_728

lassitershawn wrote: »

The real issue with sorc changes is that stamsorc still sucks. I don't get why people want to play a stam sorcerer, but there are plenty that do, and as long as this is true stamsorc should be made more viable.

The only good thing you had to say. You may not run shields in pve but there are plenty of others that do. There are also people like myself that are mag sorc tanks and 6 seconds kills resources far too quick. I am not a tank anymore due to this botched "fix" @Wrobel is implementing. Also take into consideration there are people that ONLY play solo.

NativeJoe

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************


Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

GriM_728

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************


Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

Thank you. The thread should now end here.

Minalan

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************


Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

Thread over. You win.

They should give you Wrobel's job.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

NativeJoe wrote: »

*******************************************************************************************
IF YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE SORCS ARE HAVING WITH SHIELD REDUCTION AND OTHER NERFS PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A POST STATING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Thanks ~Broken'Stick
*******************************************************************************************


Why is the duration 6 seconds?
Because how long does fear last? right so u shield up. the NB gets a smirk, buffs up, fears you, u run around like and idiot lose ur shields, and he gets his combo in unmitigated. A well timed Dizzy swing and ur on the ground, ult time as soon as the shields expire. IT is basically just a way to give EVERY class their own shot at us without having to go through any mitigation. and lets not forget the dirty little secret of the transmutation set. If you are healed by a person and are wearing 7/7 impen... Sorcs CANNOT heal off you because you are immune to critical strikes. Also with everyone having shields...same issue. So sorcs cannot recover hp.

Why do I personally have an issue with the changes?
It isn't that they Changed just my shields and I'm QQing in the corner. let me try to paint a picture everyone can see.

In pvp... Every class has it's own damage mitigation techniques. NBs can stealth, shuffle, dodge. Dks Traditionally are the tankiest of builds and can mitigate damage greatly; they also get flappy wings to reflect direct damage projectiles such as crystal frags, overload, crushing shock, flame clench, and that sorta thing. Templars can out mitigate, out heal, and have insane resource management to get by, Sorcs have Streak, rune prison, soft CC, and Shields as our Damage mitigation techniques.

A broad description that isn't by any means absolute. or the entire story...but u get the idea...every class has it's own WAY of dealing with heavy damage.

So I'm playing a pet build...doing Awsome btw : https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/64395447 : And then Zos comes in and goes hey... shield duration reduced by 70%, Your pet curse now is not considered a dot and thus does not benefit from CP in thermaturge (these things are 2 major nerfs to my pets survival, my resource management, my ability to not get randomly ganked, etc) ..... okay awsome..... but they weren't finished. ALSO all shields now protect against all damage, every class can now shield stack, AND we're upping the damage of proxy. (5 pets x 25% more damage + me roughly means im going to take 20k damage from it by myself...if not more) So now all my opponents just got tougher, my dps just got lower, and they put in basically a kill switch to my pet build.

understand a little bit of my frustration here?

By no means is that all they did, nor all they will do... they gotta do something about stamina sorc now...which probably means magicka sorcs of all kinds are about to lose something.

And thats just talking about this specific build. Sorc shield tanks, CC sustain sorc builds, and others are on the chopping block too. It's a wide range of builds that are going to suffer by changing a "class defining" skill.

Why do I have problems with it in pve?
basically our BIS gear (to be remotely competitive) doesn't give HP, and our defenses are paper thin... like unshielded we get one shot thin. So traditionally we used shields so we didn't have to lose THAT much dps by dropping lots of points into hp or jumping heavy armor or the like. Now in pve they are basically making us take off our shields..because there is no way to run molag kena (skills cost 33% more) and do a skill rotation and be spamming shields every 6 seconds. Which means we have to adapt... Maybe slotting a pet in the place of the shield would give enough hp room for templar healer to keep us up...idk but either way it's a massive change to sorcs, and it's a tough bullet to swallow to have to depend on the competency of another for survival.

Why do I feel like a wet noodle next to other classes in the dps role?
have you been in a parse with someone on the higher end of the dps spectrum. aka actually wearing bis gear? a NB or DK can easily pull 50k dps. Templar HEALERS doing their job can do 20k+ dps. Sorcs doing all their rotations, perfectly buffed, and in cookie cutter builds struggle to break 25k.

And remember the other classes shield stacking too...so if your doing the same ur cutting your dps for a no win scenerio. Dk's are now the best shield stackers with flappy wings, thorn shield (reflects 33% damage back), and the fact they can self heal and pretty much already dominated the damage mitigation scene prior to this anyway.

Our shields where donated to the other classes. my honest opinion is to ditch em, and try to go for something else. otherwise it is kinda like the vanilla days of wow...paladin vs paladin.

What else do I hate about DB changes as far as sorcs are concerned?
Currently we lack Complete originality in the area of Stamina sorcs (which use very few class skills and basically just use being a "sorc" as a utility)
And With magicka sorcs being the bottom of the barrel dps wise across the board and the fact our class "unique-ness" has been lost due to the fact everyone is now inheriting our damage mitigation techniques while retaining their own...
Get ganked by a shielded NB from stealth...because you forgot to spam your shield Every 6 seconds while walking around.
Sorcs are no longer the best shielders... DK's are. With flappy wings, thorn shield, and heavy damage mitigation...they're the new kings.
I hate that I'm having to rethink and recraft all my gear now. No longer can I depend on shields to get me through...but im lost as to what to do.
Currently I'm thinking with our shields being reduced to 6 seconds and it just not being feasible to refresh them constantly on a pet build or CC based sustain build for pvp we need to invest in tactics that Don't use shields... for that we basically need to take all points out of magicka and invest in health instead... utilizing the new buffs in heavy armor, and the +8% max hp for having a pet summoned we stack that with entrophy + 8% and we'll see a build that can actually take a hit from enemy players. The problem with this idea is where is our damage coming from, and more importantly how are we sustaining such a build? There is a pvp set that combined with 7/7 impren makes builds uncritable , and therefor we can't rely on critical surge for anything at all. As for our pet... he's 15k hp in DB and shieldless he's pretty much a one shot. But maybe there is a way to mitigate damage enough to let mutagens or something do the work for us.

For pve... shields are pointless, we;re already the lowest dps...refreshing a shield every 6 seconds is absolutely pointless. Infact it is a liability. So we're going to have to rely on healers, Slot a pet instead of a shield for the extra 8% hp (since our best in slot gear doesn't give us hp) and try to do our basic OL set up (molag kena and shield casting every 6 seconds doesn't work, some come DB you have to lose one or the other)

Now here's the thing... these 2 builds are not transferable from one area to the other... therefor I think those of us who do pvp mostly will have to Tank in the pve setting. and those of us pveing mostly will either have to hide in the Zerg and hope to not get hit in the cross fire, or go cookie cutter sorc.(cookie cutter sorc is using burst damage, 1 resto staff, 1 destro staff with trade mark abilities like crushing shock, mines, streak, and frags to destroy opponents)

Niche builds are basically being annihilated by this DB patch...and proxy counting pets as targets and scaling much higher much faster means pet builds are pretty much done in pvp. Also with our primary curse damage being deemed not a dot...our damage has been nerfed there as well since we can't invest in thermaturge to get that higher amount of damage. So yeah... think pet builds are done for now.

CC sustain builds may still be viable but we're going to need to highly consider not running shields and instead running hp instead because you can't take an even larger dps hit on a low dps build.

Anyway I think since Stamina sorcs are going to be getting some stuff, Magick sorcs need some attention to their passives and abilities as well.
We have lost our Sorc-ness, and need a new identity. Now personally I kinda like the GW2 idea with the mesmer class... Lots of pets, executes, and CC/bleed/confusion/condition effects to take down opponents. For non pet builds I like the idea of having more AOE static (this is my house) type of damage builds to combat the whole invisible/untargetable/shuffle/shielded builds that are going to be new meta. AS for passives... Anything that gives us more life and more life steal at this point.. we're totally screwed on that end without shields.

somebody needs to give you a job

Drummerx04

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The six second shield
There are already plenty of comments about how much more prevalent the anti-shield set is going to be with this change... and they aren't complaints - they are playground-level taunts from those anticipating Sorc-wrecking in PvP.

An interesting observation I've made in the live server. Normally I encounter shield breaker in my death recap maybe once or twice a week, but recently I've been running into it once or twice and hour. Perhaps it is completely random and insignificant, but it does look like players are already gearing for the shield change.

So it's looking like sorcs are getting the unintended nerf of making the shield breaker set more appealing for every encounter... You know, the set designed pretty pointedly at killing sorcs by getting through their shields.

What the lower shield time means to me is that I will be starting many more of my fights with 30% health courtesy of NB stealth burst to unshielded sorc, then praying that he/she doesn't have shield breaker to laugh away the remaining 7k health while I CC break and mount a defense and counterattack.

Also I guess sorcs can forget about having any sort of defense if our ping isn't flawless.

But at least sorcs now need to choose whether to be offensive or defensive, the same decision the infinite-dodge-roll-skill-macroing nightblades need to make every day. (ZOS, the previous statement was sarcastic and meant to highlight the perceived poor reasoning of your decision).

cpuScientist

The AOE from the pet is about half or a little less of say an impulse and the impulse can be spammed per second while the pet goes off every 2. But it's useful I don't think the damage is bad, it's just another AOE dit I can add to my rotation, I'd like a little more damage from it naturally if it was impulse numbers the I could just spam that and not have to put on impulse saving precious slots. I wish the twilight tormentor did a single target attack akin to the AOE pet however right now you activate it and it does more damage to the first 50% of health. It really is not useful, and a little more damage on an already weak attack ain't doing much.

Derra

lassitershawn wrote: »

Really want to understand what the big deal is here...

- Small nerf in PvP, barely noticeable nerf versus a good opponent that knows how to do damage. Real nerf to sorcs was the nerf to our burst by getting rid of our Dawnbreaker of Smiting and Proximity Detonation. If you are competent, defenses in PvP should not be hurt. Yes, I played on PTS, and I did not really feel 6 second shields as a problem. We were overtuned in PvP last update, and we are going to have to work harder for a good burst now, especially since sustain will be more important this update with new poisons and cost increases to all skills (I do not know if this is a bug or not yet). Also having to refresh shields more often will hurt our ability to pressure enemies. I suspect magicka sorcs will still be excellent in solo PvP and also group PvP a lot more now with the new AWESOME negate.

- No nerf in competitive group PvE. Sorcs have six bar slots in PvE, because we have to slot two toggles. If you want to deal competitive DPS, you have no room for a shield. The ONLY place I use a shield in PvE is vMA and lamias on Serpent. I run minimum HP (16,809) and by simply not standing in red and trusting my healers and tank, I'm always fine. Lamias on Serpent are easy, so it isn't really an issue anyways, and in vMA if you are taking heavy incoming damage your shield will not last 6 seconds anyways. The only place the nerf will hurt in vMA is if you are DPSing and not taking heavy damage, and have to spend more time refreshing shields. And honestly Power Surge may very well keep you in good shape during these situations (after minor prophecy I have ~75% crit chance in vMA). Sorcs will still be excellent in vMA if for no reason other than Overload is easily the best tool in vMA.

The real issue with sorc changes is that stamsorc still sucks. I don't get why people want to play a stam sorcerer, but there are plenty that do, and as long as this is true stamsorc should be made more viable.

Big pile of blabla biased towards your personal build.

I don´t play a fotm sorc burst setup. My build requires high constant pressure. I have shields running out in pvp already with 20s timer. What the change does is nerf an already non fotm build by requiring constant shield recasting while on the offense. I´m not sure yet but it´s likely my build will be broken.

Yay for mor cookiecutter sorc builds because that is gonna remain somewhat vaible. Who wants different builds anyway.

You have no idea what the change actually means in terms of build flexibility.

As for vMSA. You simply have no idea how high scores are aquired. If the leaderboard won´t get reset everyone currently at the top is going to stay there.

It will simply swipe anything non conformistic in terms of builds of the table because anything requiring something different than 4 skill rotation: burst => shield => repeat - is simply not gonna be able to compete anymore.

byrom101b16_ESO

Thank you NativeJoe & Drummerx04 for blowing the problem-deniers away with your posts.

A shame it won't make a blind bit of difference.

The points made are entirely self-evident once you think about them logically for more than 15 seconds.

Unfortunately the words 'think' and 'logic' are lost on people who either cannot, or will not see what is right in front of them.

Sorcerer's are to be hollowed out by this imbecilic 'fix'. It makes Sorcerer's the ONLY class that has to choose between offence or defence, the rest get to use both at the same time, and do greater damage doing it.

Do we REALLY have to suffer what is blindingly obvious to anyone with a hint of common sense and intelligence - weeks or months of getting dumped on from a great height BY DESIGN, before ZOS change this back with the suffix 'not intended', or is there the courage anywhere within the Dev. Team to put their hands up and admit this is a train crash before the train actually derails?

Hold your breath if you dare...

That's the best case scenario as far as I see it. To be honest, if was a betting man I'd put real money down that the 6 second shield fiasco is the 'bad news' which they will withdraw later giving us 12 second shields so all the 5-second-memory forum guppies will clap and cheer about how 'responsive' ZOS are and 'how they listened' whilst forgetting that we've been nerfed to the tune of 8 seconds and the other classes have been handed our mojo for free on top of their own.

I might just be cynical enough to be able to apply for a prole-manipulation job in the customer psy-ops and propaganda department at ZOS.

As for their motivations for crashing and burning an entire class - go figure?

They will probably be asking us for detailed feedback with the maths all done for them next - like as if they don't actually program the game themselves and know what they deliberately input...

There really is a surreal quality to the level of indifference, negligence or incompetence (pick the one you think applies) that is on display with this latest change to the game.

Minalan

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Thank you NativeJoe & Drummerx04 for blowing the problem-deniers away with your posts.

A shame it won't make a blind bit of difference.

The points made are entirely self-evident once you think about them logically for more than 15 seconds.

Unfortunately the words 'think' and 'logic' are lost on people who either cannot, or will not see what is right in front of them.

Sorcerer's are to be hollowed out by this imbecilic 'fix'. It makes Sorcerer's the ONLY class that has to choose between offence or defence, the rest get to use both at the same time, and do greater damage doing it.

Do we REALLY have to suffer what is blindingly obvious to anyone with a hint of common sense and intelligence - weeks or months of getting dumped on from a great height BY DESIGN, before ZOS change this back with the suffix 'not intended', or is there the courage anywhere within the Dev. Team to put their hands up and admit this is a train crash before the train actually derails?

Hold your breath if you dare...

That's the best case scenario as far as I see it. To be honest, if was a betting man I'd put real money down that the 6 second shield fiasco is the 'bad news' which they will withdraw later giving us 12 second shields so all the 5-second-memory forum guppies will clap and cheer about how 'responsive' ZOS are and 'how they listened' whilst forgetting that we've been nerfed to the tune of 8 seconds and the other classes have been handed our mojo for free on top of their own.

I might just be cynical enough to be able to apply for a prole-manipulation job in the customer psy-ops and propaganda department at ZOS.

As for their motivations for crashing and burning an entire class - go figure?

That's how they sell any nerf. Pound the class into the dirt, then come back and 'save' it later, leaving it probably where they wanted it to begin with.

Like nightblades and the cloak inhibiting skills...

As for handing people out Mojo. Not if Anulment is still six seconds. The same 'CC 3-4 seconds in' strategy still works.

Khaos_Bane

Grao wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The fix for this is simplicity itself, but ZOS refuse to do it without messing up other areas of play because it appears that they don't want to be seen to be agreeing with their players (or whetever their motivation is...).

SHIELD FIX 101

1. Leave durations on shields cast by a character on themselves as they are, except where in some cases shields are already too short in duration - in which case increase it to something useful
2. Reduce durations of any second+ type of shield cast on a toon from any source to 6 seconds
3. Leave Light Armour shield as it is
4. Make all shields critable

That fixes PvP without borking PvE, and makes shield stacking a short-duration option for emergencies only, especially with the bar swap for mutliple shield applications so often used by people.

How is that hard?

ZOS - your solution is lazy and constitutes a nerf with no value.

Here is where i disagree.

The suggestions listed above are PERFECT for leaving the existing one way only meta of max damage max crit blammo ignore sustain and frankly who cares about resist bc shield cracking is what matters model.

In that meta, the "only" optimal dbl-mundus TBS is the thief shadow.

And so the "only" armor trait worth it is impen, only wpn trait is nirn etc etc etc.

Or whatever.

I dont think zos efforts ACROSS THE PATCH are laxy but quite the opposite. I think they are trying to change the existing meta not just add to it. They are trying to create a much more dynamic combat play where everything has strengths and weakness to be exploited and trade-offs abound ubiquitously.

It would be EASY to just tweak here and there and allow the current meta to carry on into stagnation with a new better bang set or two per dlc... that would be easy and lazy and likely long term fail to remain dynamic and lively.

What they are doing this and the last patch may be many things but lazy is not one of them.

They are trying to change PvP meta while completely ignoring PvE viability and the general uniqueness of an entire class.

This, @Wrobel is clearly struggling balancing classes in PvP, which can be a very difficult task. By balancing class skills based on PvP they are homogenizing the classes, exactly what @Wrobel stated he want to avoid. I agree with him, homogenizing classes makes for a very boring game but it's heading this way.

As sorcs are finding out, their class skills are now even being handed out ALL STA and MAG users. Templars had their primary heal nerfed and it was given to sorcs. This is a bad trend for the game period. It's also unfortunate that class defining skills keep getting nerfed as well, it just compounds the problem and pushes the envelope towards all classes being the same.

@Wrobel has a tough job for sure.

Drummerx04

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

As sorcs are finding out, their class skills are now even being handed out ALL STA and MAG users. Templars had their primary heal nerfed and it was given to sorcs. This is a bad trend for the game period. It's also unfortunate that class defining skills keep getting nerfed as well, it just compounds the problem and pushes the envelope towards all classes being the same.

@Wrobel has a tough job for sure.

I completely understand why templars would be upset by the BoL nerf. And I can see where it would be upsetting to see the sorc get a similar ability, so know that this is not a personal attack. But at the same time, the addition of the new sorc heal maintained a unique feel with its own pros and cons.

The twilight has to actually be summoned in order to heal, therefore it needs to be slotted into at least 2 bars. The twilight also gets wrecked pretty easily even if you are mindful of positioning, and it can happen at some very inopportune times. The twilight heal is also directly tied to your magicka pool much like the sorc shield. Spell power does not affect the strength, so buffs to spell power do not improve the heal. The heal also targets the two lowest health targets.

BoL still just works as long as the templar isn't dead or CC'd, and I assume it is affected by spell power rating (I haven't tested as much). It also always targets the templar, and it does not need to be double slotted. However, templars still have quite a few passives and other healing utilities like shards and repentance so they are still pretty uniquely the best choice for healers in pvp or pve.


Given every other class a sorc like shield now, the sorc's claim to uniqueness is that it has another shield. The worst part is that even with the duration nerf it will be too invaluable to leave out of my and most sorc builds. So at the end of the day, ZOS will look at player builds and be like, "Look everyone still uses it, so it must not be that bad." While conveniently ignoring that we would flat out die without it.