Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

acw37162

Stam Sorc;

Just a repeat;

I like the idea behind Hurricane and the visuals however hurricane needs,

Access to the distengrate passive
Keep improved damage and AOE size if it is refreshed before it expires
Major Expidition

I really really hope you have more under the hood for stam sorc in a coming patch to test. Their strength was mobility and you just took away roughly 60% of the mobility for a AOE DOT with a nice visual and ok damage.

You also took away assess to the disentigrate passive further reducing the already average to below average DPS output.

Less mobility Less survive ability and a wash on damage really.- Net negative

Have to pick between a single target CC or empower now.- Net Negative

Have to pick a non-class skill skill to get movement bonus making one less spot to WD increase with passive abilities - Net Negative.

Please have more to offer the lowly stam sorc then this, please.

timidobserver

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GreatWhite000 wrote: »

Stam sorcs still lack support in the class passives and boundless storm will still be preferred in PvP for the extra speed (and PvE stam sorcs will still be a joke as far as trials and whatnot go).

The nerf to magicka sorc shields (hardened ward) is huge and is going to result in a giant loss of survivability for sorcs, especially in PvP where sorcs are really squishy without their shields up.

Overall, I'm really sad that mag sorcs got such a nerf and that stam sorcs didn't get the buff they were promised. I think I'm gonna go ahead and delete my stam sorc on live because it's such a pointless waste of a character slot (and potential).

Actually Stam Sorcs have some good class passives. Sorcs have great passive regeneration (20% health/stam and 10% mag). Bound Armaments is nice but its problem is that its a toggle and not a clicky. The weapon damage bonus you can get from being a Storc is rather nice as well. All that being said I do think they could stand to improve in other areas like Surge for instance.

In line with the changes to other class passives like world in flame, kindling, and burning light, they should probably make disintegrate be either lightning or physical depending on your weapon damage or spell damage, energized should also increase physical damage, and/or capacitor should increase stamina recovery as well as magicka.

Tyrannitar

acw37162 wrote: »

Stam Sorc;

Just a repeat;

I like the idea behind Hurricane and the visuals however hurricane needs,

Access to the distengrate passive
Keep improved damage and AOE size if it is refreshed before it expires
Major Expidition

I really really hope you have more under the hood for stam sorc in a coming patch to test. Their strength was mobility and you just took away roughly 60% of the mobility for a AOE DOT with a nice visual and ok damage.

You also took away assess to the disentigrate passive further reducing the already average to below average DPS output.

Less mobility Less survive ability and a wash on damage really.- Net negative

Have to pick between a single target CC or empower now.- Net Negative

Have to pick a non-class skill skill to get movement bonus making one less spot to WD increase with passive abilities - Net Negative.

Please have more to offer the lowly stam sorc then this, please.

This sums up almost everything I'm trying to say and more....

If none of the devs play the class, please hear out the portion of the community that does!

yell0wdart

ZOS, I'm loving the vast majority of the changes being introduced into Dark Brotherhood, but I can't get over how misguided the changes to shields appear to be. Please don't construe this as a QQ wall of text. As a software engineer myself, I tend to empathize with the devs' plight here, so I'm trying to provide them with some feedback as objectively as I can.

First, as others have mentioned, from a design philosophy, it goes against comments that we've heard @Wrobel make on ESO Live. Homogenizing shields just seems to contradict those statements. Strong shields are the one defensive characteristic that Sorcs have that differentiate them from other classes. They are the sole defensive mechanic that Sorcs have to sustain their survival during conflict (PVP or PVE). As any Sorc is painfully aware that our class heals are inadequate at best. Pet heals are the most potent, but are so cumbersome to use that in the overwhelming majority of cases, Sorcs will turn to restoration staves for that purpose. So making non-class shields that are as strong as Hardened Ward available to everybody seems a bit unnecessary, and only serves to exacerbate the problem of shield stacking in PVP. If you think people complain about shield stacking Sorcs, just wait till they start in on shield stacking Nightblades or Templars.

Secondly, the new (6 sec) duration is painfully low, on all shields. I'm primarily a PVPer, and regularly refresh my shields inside of 6 seconds during combat. However, requiring Sorcs to re-cast every 6 seconds at all times to keep their shields up seems more than a bit heavy-handed. It renders a lot of PVE content (particularly vet Maelstrom) unnecessarily prohibitive, and leaves Sorcs wide open for ganking in open world PVP, sewers, etc. High level PVP Sorcs will probably ridicule me for being a filthy casual, but I often stack my shields while out of combat, specifically for that reason. I often gank in Cyrodiil and the sewers myself, and have been on the giving, as well as receiving end. No shields means a dead Sorc within 1 cc/damage rotation. Yes, I'm aware that we will have bigger shields in DB's current state, due to the changes to Annulment. That's nifty and all, but once again, homogenizing shield stacking across all classes is a bad idea. And necessitating re-casting them all inside of 6 sec is just poor design. Yes, they're going to be stronger now, and that's nice, but why punch your users in the face? Even if they are filthy shield stacking noob Sorcs? The duration change actually accomplishes very little in respect to balancing shield stacking in PVP.

I'm certainly not against balancing shields, but the current implementation on the PTS is the wrong approach. I've seen a few suggestions that I really like. The best, so far, being rolling shields into the major/minor buff system, thereby allowing only 2 shields at a time. The other really compelling suggestion being making them able to be critted against. I like the former because it seems like a really elegant solution to the problem. If you must homogenize shields, ZOS, at least do it right. The latter, however, does present some interesting options, as critical strikes against shields will only effect PVP, leaving PVE situations unscathed, which would certainly be more ideal.

For consistency's sake, I understand the need to normalize shield durations across all implementations (class shields, non-class shields, etc). However, 6 seconds is too short. I would implore you, ZOS devs to normalize them with a considerably longer duration (10 seconds at the minimum), and re-consider the changes to Anullment, Bone Shield, etc until you have more time to actually tackle the problem of solving shield stacking. I would HIGHLY recommend making balance changes in a much tighter release cycle. It's such a sensative area of game design, and there are so many edge cases that shipping major updates every 3-5 months is just too much, too infrequently. Players who are passionate about playing your awesome game would love to provide feedback, test new ideas out and see more bugs fixed more regularly.

Tyrannitar

"We do still have plans to make stamina-based Sorcerer builds more competitive. That said, it’s going to take some time to make comprehensive changes that are balanced, fully tested (both internally and on the PTS), and also include appropriate visual effects. We’re currently keeping an eye on data since Update 6 was published, and have some ideas on what we’d like to pursue. What would you all like to see to make stamina Sorcs a more viable build to use?"

-@ZOS_GinaBruno March, 2015...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1619534/#Comment_1619534

When's that happening exactly?

Rakkul

Thelon wrote: »

Bad Sorcs be like



Good Sorcs be like

Good NB's be like

and so what?

Slakk

rokrdt05 wrote: »

The issue I'm seeing currently with the sorc class that has yet to be addressed is damage abilities.

Each class has a unique or several unique spammables that are good.

For Example: DK's have whip, NB's have Funnel/Concealed, and Templars have Jabs/Dark Flare

Sorcs have Crystal Frags, an expensive skill that doesn't even compare to Dark Flare, not to mention to get the insta cast proc you have to cast OTHER skills. So instead sorcs are forced to rely on a non class skill for spammable. You keep shoving pets down are necks without addressing much needed changes to other class abilities. This is the 3rd major update where sorcs are yet again left out behind other classes in terms of comparable DPS without relying on Overload, which let's face it is cheese.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I really hope you can relay to the other devs that this is just simply not acceptable anymore. The sorc class in some way needs a complete do over in some aspects and brought up to par with the other classes.

@rokrdt05 I do appreciate seeing some opinions directed at the sustain/damage of the sorcerer class which has been a little overdue for some redistribution of power.

While I personally love the concept of pets on the sorcerer class, there are still tons of barriers and limitations that really keep them out of PvE. The new volatile familiar is capable of some decent AoE DPS, but there's still many obstacles in the way of reliable pet use.

The lack of scaling with spell power or CP could be seen as an issue to some, you could have trouble positioning/commanding pets even with the command button, or your pet could simply just die at a bad time.
Then some useful gear/skill buffs such as Spell Power Cure or Powerful Assault have had body caps introduced, and sorcerer pets seem to be able to still take these buffs and gain absolutely no benefit at all. I haven't deeply tested this one so if there's a UI error or some other nonsense going on I may be open to correction on this statement but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the real deal.

There's also bar space. Using Bound Armor/Aegis/Arms is also a massive part of many builds and yet it leaves you with less room for flexibility in your build to run support skills or a pet. Overloads 3rd bar is probably the justification of it, but not every single sorc build is going to want to specialize in overload or pets.

It is going to be impossible to please everyone, but I'm pretty much in agreement with posts like these.
I've dreamed of a traditional chain lightning skill for so long...

WuffyCerulei

I'm fine with the damage shield times being reduced. I'm pleased that most sorcs who spam them and are virtually unkillable will have a much harder time being so untouchable. They may have been a blessing in pvp, but time to actually have some skill.

Feynn

I see some people who keep saying that these changes will not affect "good" players, but you need to consider what percentage of the player base actually constitutes "good" players. If a change affects only bad players and not good ones, all you are doing is driving a further wedge to increase the gap between the good and the not-so-good.

Besides, it's undeniable that this is a nerf to the class. And as far as I recall Zenimax has stated several times that its philosophy was that classes should not be rebalanced through nerfs.

I understand that shield stacking may be an issue in PvP, but there are less intrusive ways of solving it than taking a sledgehammer against one of the must-have skills of the Sorcerer class. At the same time, the real issues with the class are still not being addressed: the fact that pets are still unviable (if only for the fact that they take up two skill slots) and the fact that our DPS relies on something as tedious as clicking our left mouse button over and over in Overload. Well, now I guess we'll just have to take a break from our Overload spamming in order to refresh our Hardened Ward. So our DPS will decrease, and our magicka with it.

Sure, we can adapt. We can always adapt. We can "l2p" and "git gud". But let's look at it, it's a nerf. Nobody likes being nerfed.

Sublime

There seems to be a lot of good feedback regarding stamina Sorcerer so I just want to add that the damage of Hurricane is pretty decent and I like how it creates windows of relative streanght/weakness, but taking away Major Expedition is a pretty big hit, which I don't think was necessary.

Now as for the main focus of this post:
Because of the skill curve and its play-making potential Negate has always been and currently is my most favorite skill in this game. So as you can imagine I don't mind it getting a buff, even though I don't think it needed one. Yes it probably was used rather rarely, but that's because it's a very niche skill with extraordinary strengths in certain situations. However, I do understand that it would be favorable if it were more accessible to the broader audience.

The added damage/healing is nice, but it doesn't make or break the skill and is not what Negate is about. Negate isn't like Banner or Nova, which you cast on a immobile or vulnerable target to do some big damage, it's about peeling for your group by controlling enemy targets by stunning/silencing them or getting rid of high-cost enemy skills.

Given this playstyle probably makes you think that the new inability to break the silence is great. And it is, as long as you are the one using the skill. For any other magicka build it's going to be a living hell, especially when combined with Bombard or Caltrops, causing you to use extraordinary amounts of Stamina to get out of the AOE.

Moral of the story is that I don't think buffing Negate is as bad of an idea as buffing the 20s Hardened Ward would be. But please change it in a way that does not have highly variable effects on different playstyles, as it would make the skill extremely annoying (worse than the current Wrecking Blow) for some players and completely ineffective against others.

Therefore I'd suggest to make the buff more streamlined across different targets. An option would be to expand the silence to stamina skills, which currently are not affected by the silence. Here I have to point out that only the skills should be affected, roll-dodging, blocking and break-free should still doable. Another possibility would be to restore the continuous prohibition of ground target effects for the first 5s of Negate.

Rylana

Rakkul wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

Bad Sorcs be like



Good Sorcs be like

Good NB's be like

and so what?

Correction.

Nightblades be like OHCRAPOHCRAPOHCRAP CLOAKCLOAKCLOAKCLOAK and wait in stealth for the sorc to get attacked by three other guys first, then ill throw in a surprise attack or a snipe and claim i got him all by myself. such a pro plan

Vangy

Rylana wrote: »

Rakkul wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

Bad Sorcs be like



Good Sorcs be like

Good NB's be like

and so what?

Correction.

Nightblades be like OHCRAPOHCRAPOHCRAP CLOAKCLOAKCLOAKCLOAK and wait in stealth for the sorc to get attacked by three other guys first, then ill throw in a surprise attack or a snipe and claim i got him all by myself. such a pro plan

*hides in shadows waiting to snipebush followed by teabag x10*

Rylana

Vangy wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Rakkul wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

Bad Sorcs be like



Good Sorcs be like

Good NB's be like

and so what?

Correction.

Nightblades be like OHCRAPOHCRAPOHCRAP CLOAKCLOAKCLOAKCLOAK and wait in stealth for the sorc to get attacked by three other guys first, then ill throw in a surprise attack or a snipe and claim i got him all by myself. such a pro plan

*hides in shadows waiting to snipebush followed by teabag x10*

*casually hops around, absentmindedly and by sheer habit refreshing hardened ward, picks a pretty flower, comeatmebro*

susmitds

Spearblade wrote: »

Almost the entire Daedric Summoning tree needs to be gutted imho. Pets are not reliable in any scenario, unless you make them unkillable (a walking dot and then...what's the point?).

Gut the tree, make it into something else. Like...frost or something. Frost would actually be kinda cool, considering Frost Staff and Ice Comet are only Frost damage skills in game.

And you can very feasibly make some STAMINA MORPHS out of ice. You can physically stab things with ice. Fire, shock...not so much.

Stam Sorc SERIOUSLY needs help.

Only class without a concrete gap closer (Why not change Ball of Lightning to stamina and zap TO A TARGET? You could even recycle your windy Hurricane graphic to do so. Does anybody even USE Ball of Lightning?!)

Absolutely zero options for stamina spam. We're forced to go into WB (status quo, clunky) or Flurry (clunkier, doesn't proc Surge). The options are bad or worse. Sword and Board has other options, but won't work well in PVE.

One of the morphs of Overload could easily be reconfigured to Physical damage, following your wind theme with Hurricane (which is cool btw, kudos on that)

You have over a month to add some more depth to Sorcerer (especially stam). Give us something to test!

Even a so called walking DoT would be useless. Look at the stupid shades of the Nightblades.

Digiman

We have the worst self healing in the game because it's cumbersome taking up both weapon slots and the other just doesn't give back much especially for the cast time.

To top it off idiots here screaming their love for the reduced time failed to comprehend that they now have to work harder DPS to get that shield down because of annulments massive buff or contend with classes that have better self heals now also have shields of their own.

The change doesn't address a single thing. When you have an ability that makes you immune to crit your gimping everyones DPS around a single ability.

Sorcerers resorted to shield stacking because LA is weak as tissue paper and would get one shotted really quickly. Now meaty people with huge self healing will become prevalent.

susmitds

Digiman wrote: »

We have the worst self healing in the game because it's cumbersome taking up both weapon slots and the other just doesn't give back much especially for the cast time.

To top it off idiots here screaming their love for the reduced time failed to comprehend that they now have to work harder DPS to get that shield down because of annulments massive buff or contend with classes that have better self heals now also have shields of their own.

The change doesn't address a single thing. When you have an ability that makes you immune to crit your gimping everyones DPS around a single ability.

Sorcerers resorted to shield stacking because LA is weak as tissue paper and would get one shotted really quickly. Now meaty people with huge self healing will become prevalent.

And pretty much every build would use shields now regardless of class, magicka or stamina. Which now makes the shield stacking even worse.

susmitds

May be you guys can look here and provide ZoS some better ideas than this.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262338/major-issue-with-current-universal-shields#latest

Dark_Aether

Why can't stam sorcs get an Atronach that walks and deals physical damage to it's target. Charged Atro remained the magic morph and Brutal Atro can be the physical morph.

Or something like Thundering Fists from Overload, you can go around punching people in the face.

Armann

Supersnake_Lx wrote: »

Why can't stam sorcs get an Atronach that walks and deals physical damage to it's target. Charged Atro remained the magic morph and Brutal Atro can be the physical morph.

Or something like Thundering Fists from Overload, you can go around punching people in the face.

Swap Charged Storm Atronach for an Air Atronach dealing physical damage and an AoE effect on it like the new Hurricane morph would be my pick.

UnBelievaBill

[/quote]

Constant reapplication of buffs shields and HoTs is a natural progression to pro status in PvP. If its still difficult for you, and youre not willing to do it, there is the easy mode over there, its called PvE[/quote]

"Pro Status"... What a joke that guy.

Erock25

@ZOS_RichLambert please read this thread and see the overwhelming majority saying that stam sorc is getting the short end of the stick and please talk to your team about what they should do. I'm not sure why, but it really seems that sorcerer is the only class that is being deliberately forced into one play style (magicka). Look at everything the Sorc class has to offer stamina builds and it isn't much. We're the only class without a direct damage attack. Our only attack that scales completely (including CP) on stamina stats just happens to be THE OTHER MORPH of one of the most popular abilities for a stam sorc, Boundless Storm. Our class ultimates all scale with magicka oriented CP. Our best passive (+2% weapon power with sorc ability slotted) was just made obsolete by the new fighter's guild passive that provides more weapon dmg. Our other best passive requires us to slot Bound Armaments on both bars or use Atronach.

We need help Rich, and I hope you can see that and make suggestions as needed.

SturgeHammer

Supersnake_Lx wrote: »

Why can't stam sorcs get an Atronach that walks and deals physical damage to it's target. Charged Atro remained the magic morph and Brutal Atro can be the physical morph.

Air Atronach Ult for Stam Sorc makes a lot of sense to me with the new wind theme.

PainfulFAFA

Fiighers guild: 3% wpn dmg per ability slotted....

Sorc Passive: 2% wpn dmg per ability slotted......GG

RoyJade

We really a stamsorc thread with all concern/idea on the main post. I see more and more stamsorc and other forumer who say that stamsorc need help, but all these post are spread around the forum.
I'll create it after the next minor patch and the change ZOS will eventually give to us, if nobody created it before. This post should resume all concern, all strength/weakness and all ideas we want ZOS to see.

PainfulFAFA

RoyJade wrote: »

We really a stamsorc thread with all concern/idea on the main post. I see more and more stamsorc and other forumer who say that stamsorc need help, but all these post are spread around the forum.
I'll create it after the next minor patch and the change ZOS will eventually give to us, if nobody created it before. This post should resume all concern, all strength/weakness and all ideas we want ZOS to see.

Save us stam sorcs before its too late and we all reroll NB! ><

RoyJade

I already have a stamblade
But I want to play my stamsorc, nothing else. And I won't stop posting to promote stamsorc's so needed boost.

PainfulFAFA

RoyJade wrote: »

I already have a stamblade
But I want to play my stamsorc, nothing else. And I won't stop posting to promote stamsorc's so needed boost.

I have every class, every build and yet i want to keep stam sorcing but every patch they make it sooo hard to keep stam sorcing... ><

Rylana

Heavy Armor ElectroGoblin supertank sorc.... now with more thundering presence.

This, may actually work...

dodgehopper_ESO

Armann wrote: »

We've been asking for a stam crystal shard morph for ages, not gonna happen folks. Push for changes where they might actually happen, like Bound Armor.

I'd like to see them do something cool with Bound Armor as currently it's a boring skill, in DB we won't even have the visuals. Keep the passive bonuses when slotted and when you activate the skill it will show the visuals while the active effect is on.

Bound Aegis
Activating this will apply a damage shield equal to % of attribute that will refresh every x second for x seconds.

Bound Armaments
Activating this will summon 2 daedric blades that will attack targets within x meters of the caster.

These are just examples but you get the idea and would make Bound Armor more fun to use compared to what it currently does.

Another skill that I want to see brought more into use again is Ball of Lightning, give it the Eclipse treatment that Templars got and let it absorb all projectiles.

Interesting idea on the clicky Bound skill. This is more in line with what I'm thinking as well.

Tyrannitar wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GreatWhite000 wrote: »

Stam sorcs still lack support in the class passives and boundless storm will still be preferred in PvP for the extra speed (and PvE stam sorcs will still be a joke as far as trials and whatnot go).

The nerf to magicka sorc shields (hardened ward) is huge and is going to result in a giant loss of survivability for sorcs, especially in PvP where sorcs are really squishy without their shields up.

Overall, I'm really sad that mag sorcs got such a nerf and that stam sorcs didn't get the buff they were promised. I think I'm gonna go ahead and delete my stam sorc on live because it's such a pointless waste of a character slot (and potential).

Actually Stam Sorcs have some good class passives. Sorcs have great passive regeneration (20% health/stam and 10% mag). Bound Armaments is nice but its problem is that its a toggle and not a clicky. The weapon damage bonus you can get from being a Storc is rather nice as well. All that being said I do think they could stand to improve in other areas like Surge for instance.

Do you run a stam sorc? Our class passives are decent, but our endgame dps isn't. Like not even a little. I run 3.8k weap dmg, 83% weapon crit, and have 2k regen. Even if I ran warrior over thief, that's 4.1k weap dmg and 65% weapon crit. I can only pull 26k dps with the first build. That doesn't make sense to me.

I see stam DKS and nbs pulling insane DPS #s single target in SO, MoL, even DSA and although I've put in the time and have the skill, my class specialization simply can't pull their numbers. They got buffed, and our only spammable dps just got the cc removed from it.

Buffs for everyone except sorc it seems... >.>

I agree with you that the Stamina Sorc needs tweaks, but I don't think the shield as some has said is the problem. Nerfing the shield and creating parity with other shields was a good move. Crit surge just needs to be better. Crit Surge is the kind of iconic utility magic skill that should be beefing up Stamina and Magicka Sorcs alike (like repentance for a Templar or igneous weapons for a dk, etc). It might also make sense possibly for Surge to have a Stamina Morph that would give a HoT plus bonus Crits. Currently the heals are too unreliable particularly in pvp where a lot of complaints arise, and I get that. You can't crit shields, people use Impen, and it has an annoying cooldown. I get it, but I think this is a big area where the class could see love and get fixed. I can see why the frustration with the class though. I think Bound Armor should also just be a click power, which would allow Sorcs a little more flexibility. Sorcs have far too many toggles which bloat their skill barS (all of them). We probably agree on that as well. Though I might add if they remove toggling in its entirety for the class, it will make sense to get rid of the Overload bar, which I presume is the reason why they did so. The problem with the Overload mechanic as well is that it almost becomes a necessity for the class, which is in itself I think problematic for diversity in choice. At any regard my only point is that Sorcs have some pretty decent passives, but I do agree some of the active skills need reconsideration. I've given my thoughts on that before. The big issues with the class as I see it are: Surge needs improvement, Toggles are annoying, and reliance on Overload. One other possibility is that dark exchange could be a little better.

The class itself though has some really unique and cool things which lend themselves well in PvP. I'm in agreement with you that the changes to Wrecking Blow are an immediate problem to a lot of Storcs. I also think they're tiptoeing around the class (and some of the suggestions people have made) because if they went too far in one direction the class would be super OP. The Nerf to the shield will actually allow them to make the rest of the class better, although as someone who has played NB and Templar heavily since the beginning, I know how long it takes to see your class get fixed. I'm not without sympathy here.

SturgeHammer

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

I already have a stamblade
But I want to play my stamsorc, nothing else. And I won't stop posting to promote stamsorc's so needed boost.

I have every class, every build and yet i want to keep stam sorcing but every patch they make it sooo hard to keep stam sorcing... ><

That definitely seems to be the case. One thing I don't think I have seen mentioned in this thread yet, that immediately jumped out to me on PTS, was the increased cost of streak. I know this was a blanket increase across all abilities, but any increase in the cost of this ability has a big impact on the way Stam Sorc is played as it directly effects their mobility. This is going to put a serious squeeze on the magicka pools of Stam Sorcs who use Streak and Boundless Storm.