Official Feedback Thread for Templars

FENGRUSH · February 2016

Zinaroth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

I have been watching the, "We Are ESO" podcast and others like it and have been noticing that Richard Lambert and the other game DEVS have been watching it as well. What was the one thing all these 1vX streamers had in common? Nerf Templars.

Except it was never nerf Templars but to make smart healing spam not effective against targets that are through walls/floors. Again, it is a line of sight issue which ZOS continues to ignore. If that same healer had to expose themself to heal a player then they could more easily be targeted instead of being who knows where within a 28m radius. You can blame the PvPers but really this is solely ZOS' fault for once again not understanding the real problem: smart healing.

Not true. In their first podcast they all agreed that templars were pretty much fine despite none of them playing one (only later did Sypher level one up and it is still stuck at VR1). They then proceedee to spend 2 shows talking about how screwed DKs are and how they need buffs. All of those guys helped in creating the image of a templar class that was doing just fine because of their ignorance or lack of knowledge. Only as of late have Fengrush turned around and kind of aknowledged he was wrong. Sypher still doesn't even bother spending his time doing the templar fight and Richard and Lucy just seem to be in a constant haze of "*** ZOS". Fengrush has definetely earned my respect for aknowledging the issues our class is in, but he also plays stamsorc so he can relate. Sypher knows we're *** and he will now aknowledge that somewhat when asked, but don't really care, and Lucy and Richard are just clueless on the subject and would rather spent all of their stream time on criticizing ZOS it seems.

Cinbri wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Call' em up by name:

@Sypher, @FENGRUSH come on down! The price is right! Your chance to contribute to this discussion!

None of them tried to play magicka templar in open world pvp, i.e. opinion irrelevant. Why you need to call them? To transfrom feedback thread into trash?

Ill put in some feedback since I was tagged in here and to comment on We Are ESO.

Ill preface by saying I largely avoided this thread and some other templar threads because I received a lot of negative feedback and I didnt find it really productive to talk about issues I had from my perspective in Cyro. I did kind of end having those talks doing a 'rant' on my stream in a video I posted about templars mainly - some of you may have seen it. Me trying to kill people and not being able to kill them in a meta focused primarily around burst becomes impossible through BOL once numbers come into play. I find this to be a really poor design that focuses the game towards numbers in the fight and less about skill is the long and short of it - ESO didnt used to be like this and I hate to see it.

As far as what the issue was is another story. Some of you will hear me scream "welp, hes just getting flooded back to full HP with BOL no point in trying to kill this guy" on stream. This is technically true - but its a symptom of the problem and on stream I can technically go on about whatever is happening, Im not trying to have a constructive talk about whats going on in the middle of fights when Im streaming. The reality is that its a symptom of the problem. A game developer has to look at this and treat the root cause of the issue, not the symptom. As I detailed in my rant, I believe it primarily stems from resource management issues where its too easy to spam resources endlessly (such as BOL) - but this applies to everything (also mentioned in the rant video) example: endless rolling, vigor spamming for high effectiveness and low cost. These things become staples to gameplay everywhere in PvP and for me personally - it makes it a lot less strategical where you can and have to just 'run that constantly in the fight' rather than make a choice as to when to vigor and when to hammer out BOLs.

I find the champion system to have screwed up so many things, and while they made better changes to it this patch to try to balance it out - they still missed some things (like no physical ults scaling with anything but DK leap, yet adding Hardy). As a stam sorc I do even less damage with my ult that never scaled with CP, and less damage overall - but its besides the point. The champion system is screwed in so many ways and its skewed the ability to balance the game. Builds are able to factor in huge values of power and resource management - and the later is the real issue because you have to sacrifice very little to get to your end state functional build.

But thats just an opening to brace for the impact of hatred I will receive for even daring to post in such a thread! Magicka and stam templars suffer from different issues ultimately. A stamplar can manage rapids though its not really ideal to assist in mobility. A magicka templar never should be and pretty much set themselves up for suicide in a small/even scaled scenario where they become a target right after (especially considering the rapids nerf). This is going to hit you guys REAL hard in the mobility/survival department. Stamplars dont really specialize in anything, and they used to. When stam jabs worked well, they were the best steady DPS for stam and they had something that defined them then. All classes were able to kill with high burst windows then - but stamplar was exceptional at doing so. They broke those jabs from functioning as they did, and while a skilled stamplar could still manage things effectively, youd see top stamplars swinging in even WB when they really didnt need to before to achieve burst they shouldnt have to given what they specialized in. As a master of nothing in stam sorc, I can relate well with them.

Magicka templar is a whole different story. To people who feel I have no experience with templar, its not really true. I understand the class pretty well - I played it almost a full year through beta. I switched to sorc at release with no experience on it. I love support, its what I primarily do in most games I play. I played my magicka sorc as a utility support at release with my group, I wasnt a killer per se. Even as they nerfed the build I used I stuck to that - being one of the only sorcs using a sword/shield streaking through front lines laying down negates and focusing entirely on utility, I really enjoyed that role. That was eventually demolished as a build. I play as a DPS stam sorc because theres literally nothing else to do with it - and I hated what magicka sorcs were when I came back to the game. Ive played on magicka templar though when I came back as I test the builds that my magicka templar would use. Im very capable at making builds for it, and been asked for the magicka templar build in my group a lot on stream (even though its nothing special). The group I ran with through IC patch every day is myself (stam sorc), magicka templar, and stam templar. Im very much in tune with how this class operates and what its capable of, because even though there is 3 of us, we were geared and setup to compliment each other and be very strong as 3 people.. which we were.

Sorry for the long post - but Im trying to cut out a lot of the negativity I will get posting here. Magicka templars are actually rather capable when built offensively - even more so in this coming patch. What theyve been diminished to defensively (as noted in my rant) is heal spam bots, and they have even nerfed BOL now, which I specifically advocated against doing in that video. They needed bug fixes for starters - but I think what everyone wanted was to see more utility options added in their gameplay. I respect Wrobels concept of class diversity, but he has to also understand what a normal day of PVP looks like in Cyro - which he seems really out of touch with. Templars are not building houses in various locations for PVP and daring foes to enter at their own demise. I laughed so hard when I heard this - and you guys probably laughed in a rather sad way. Probably just like I did when they said 'oh yea, stam sorcs? We heard about those too - stand by until update 10'. Because they added so many things for us in the last 3 updates.. Shield has never been fixed for magicka templars, but shields in total have been neglected from ones that are too strong and ones that are too weak. They dont really know what to do here, and so they havent done anything. They want to do a 1-fix-all change to shields that will make templar shields better and magicka sorcs shields stronger - THIS IS HOW THEY DESIGN. And while this wont translate to a practical solution approach, its the kind that they believe will make sense and even be a more logical balanced solution. So you will likely see a change to both - even though all they have done this patch is put in a CP passive that would make it even worse for you.

Balance obviously cant be struck in isolation. When it comes to WB spam - templars are the first on my list and most any decent player. What is your counter? What is my counter to stop them from healing? People say use defile - and I have. My general experience is defile will be purged by any competent player before I ever get more than 1 swing off after it, and when numbers are out of my favor, it simply doesnt matter. This is a wider issue that stems outside of just magicka templar and WB needing to be changed (but templars also having some OTHER options and what they do other than to inform the enemy that they just entered their house). Ive advocated for buffs to other weapon lines while also adjusting WB - nobody lucks dumbed down gameplay - but alas we are told, standby until update 10.

I think we want the same thing a lot of times, not always.... I really want high skill play with choices needing to be made. I want resources to matter in a fight and stressing players into making bad ones having an effect 30seconds later in the fight. This doesnt exist today. Either you burst and blow stuff away or you try again. Its something driving people from the game at higher skilled ceiling gameplay. I dont even bother talking about a lot of it other than trolling/joking on forums mostly because its so damn futile, and I am someone with a stream and a podcast. To answer why it wasnt talked about on We are ESO - because we talked about some classes and I even suggested we need to talk about the big issues plaguing cyro before we talk about balance of classes. Class balance means nothing if the game is broken. This also included cutting my class out of the discussion - but the reality is I dont think this impacted the changes we see all the much. We are ESO is effective in mobilizing the community more than anything I believe. After our last podcast we had a dev join our teamspeak only to tell us something along the lines of 'hey this podcast was better - I could actually stomach your content this time.. I didnt even bother watching the last 4'. Thats real swell - he couldnt stand to hear our feedback because it strikes him too negatively. Sorry we cant sing praises during what I feel is the WORST patch in pvp from a perspective of balance and game play (performance/lag aside - which isnt good either). The best thing we could have is discussion and a line of communication. If wrobel is dreaming of a world where templars are some mystical badass in shiny armor fending off legions of challengers inside the glowing auras hes placed around him - what can we really do? I dont have any problem with him dreaming this - but the players can effectively help solution getting you there. Because that ring around the templar doesnt mean much, and its not getting better next patch.

I wish I could do more for my sake, for you guys, and all of the players. Despite what you hear or see from me Ive spent more quite a lot of time outside of the game trying to do something about it - and so have others like Sypher that you tagged. Without communication to those making changes, nothing great can get done. ZOS does hear your problems, they really do. They are reading it. The real problem is they isolate themselves during the solution phase and implement solutions based on what they feel or how they would like it to be and miss valuable input from players on how that would translate to real world PVP. This applies for all classes, and some will get the short end more than others.

Probably the longest post I ever wrote - but didnt take more than 15mins to write and 0 proofreading. Congrats if you make it through it all!

contact.opiumb16_ESO · February 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

I wonder if 35 pages of negative feedback for the direction they want to take Templars will stop them from continuing.
Luckily I start university next week. Cya next Major Update my Templar brothers

Mouhahahaha !!!!!!!! They surely won't give a s**t of our feedback dude

timidobserver · February 2016

Nice, the poster boy for Templar nerfs is here.

FENGRUSH · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Nice, the poster boy for Templar nerfs is here.

Thanks for the positive feedback - thats pretty much what I was hoping for.

timidobserver · February 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nice, the poster boy for Templar nerfs is here.

Thanks for the positive feedback - thats pretty much what I was hoping for.

You are the most popular and vocal proponent of Templar nerfs, so yeah you expected correctly.

Also, it is positive. Your post will likely get someone other than the moderators to look at this thread. We might even get a dev post now.

FENGRUSH · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nice, the poster boy for Templar nerfs is here.

Thanks for the positive feedback - thats pretty much what I was hoping for.

You are the most popular and vocal proponent of Templar nerfs, so yeah you expected correctly.

Also, it is positive. Your post will likely get someone other than the moderators to look at this thread. We might even get a dev post now.

Im not really an advocate to nerf this class and make it weaker - I advocate for positive changes which is hard to do in its current environment. If my long winded post didnt really hammer that point home I dont know if I will really be able to another way. You are able to have your opinion so Im not going to fight you over it in the templar thread - but I will say I am not for 'nerfing the templar class' at all. A lot of what I do and say on stream can certainly be taken out of context though and used in that manner - but thats just how it goes. The only class I advocated for some level of nerf in current live patch was stam nightblades in their ability to be good at pretty much everything (even though it does require more skill to do so). Other things needing reworks youll hear are shields for mag sorcs and healing overall, but these are 2 things that are dangerous to consider in isolation. Overnerf mag sorc shields and suddenly the class is useless. Consider healing:damage ratio meta changes and people end up saying nerf templar.

Sorry - Im not a developer on the team, nor do I pull much weight in proposing better solutions. Youd likely be happier going into this patch if I had more influence though.

Zinaroth · February 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

I have been watching the, "We Are ESO" podcast and others like it and have been noticing that Richard Lambert and the other game DEVS have been watching it as well. What was the one thing all these 1vX streamers had in common? Nerf Templars.

Except it was never nerf Templars but to make smart healing spam not effective against targets that are through walls/floors. Again, it is a line of sight issue which ZOS continues to ignore. If that same healer had to expose themself to heal a player then they could more easily be targeted instead of being who knows where within a 28m radius. You can blame the PvPers but really this is solely ZOS' fault for once again not understanding the real problem: smart healing.

Not true. In their first podcast they all agreed that templars were pretty much fine despite none of them playing one (only later did Sypher level one up and it is still stuck at VR1). They then proceedee to spend 2 shows talking about how screwed DKs are and how they need buffs. All of those guys helped in creating the image of a templar class that was doing just fine because of their ignorance or lack of knowledge. Only as of late have Fengrush turned around and kind of aknowledged he was wrong. Sypher still doesn't even bother spending his time doing the templar fight and Richard and Lucy just seem to be in a constant haze of "*** ZOS". Fengrush has definetely earned my respect for aknowledging the issues our class is in, but he also plays stamsorc so he can relate. Sypher knows we're *** and he will now aknowledge that somewhat when asked, but don't really care, and Lucy and Richard are just clueless on the subject and would rather spent all of their stream time on criticizing ZOS it seems.

Cinbri wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Call' em up by name:

@Sypher, @FENGRUSH come on down! The price is right! Your chance to contribute to this discussion!

None of them tried to play magicka templar in open world pvp, i.e. opinion irrelevant. Why you need to call them? To transfrom feedback thread into trash?

LONG ASS POST

Thanks for you input Fengrush, and don't mind the haters, they just cling to a single part of what you said and ignore the rest.

timidobserver · February 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nice, the poster boy for Templar nerfs is here.

Thanks for the positive feedback - thats pretty much what I was hoping for.

You are the most popular and vocal proponent of Templar nerfs, so yeah you expected correctly.

Also, it is positive. Your post will likely get someone other than the moderators to look at this thread. We might even get a dev post now.

Im not really an advocate to nerf this class and make it weaker - I advocate for positive changes which is hard to do in its current environment. If my long winded post didnt really hammer that point home I dont know if I will really be able to another way. You are able to have your opinion so Im not going to fight you over it in the templar thread - but I will say I am not for 'nerfing the templar class' at all. A lot of what I do and say on stream can certainly be taken out of context though and used in that manner - but thats just how it goes. The only class I advocated for some level of nerf in current live patch was stam nightblades in their ability to be good at pretty much everything (even though it does require more skill to do so). Other things needing reworks youll hear are shields for mag sorcs and healing overall, but these are 2 things that are dangerous to consider in isolation. Overnerf mag sorc shields and suddenly the class is useless. Consider healing:damage ratio meta changes and people end up saying nerf templar.

Sorry - Im not a developer on the team, nor do I pull much weight in proposing better solutions. Youd likely be happier going into this patch if I had more influence though.

It is hard to a interpret borderline incoherant raging, but I definitely got the message "nerf Templar" from most of the stuff I have watched from you on the topic. Now that it has been nerfed already, I guess it is time to be reasonable.

TRoclodyte · February 2016

My new signature.

ESO Templars; April 2014 - March 2016. RIP

bikerangelo · February 2016

@FENGRUSH I'm glad you addressed smart healing in general, as Healing Ward (outside of the templar skill line) is also a component of unskillful healing.

@blabafat tried to address smart healing a while ago and was unsuccessful, since the majority of posters took it to be a "BoL nerf thread" and attacked one of the best templars in the game. The mindset behind this is just a feeling of being under appreciated, along with being the primary class that gets the most nerfs or neglect from the devs. I knew the BoL nerf was coming eventually, but I had at least hoped some of our other defensive skills would get buffs that would put us on par with tanking and dps. We did get some buffs to dps (as minor as they were), but our defensive skills were gutted. Purifying Ritual no longer negates frags, meteors, snipes, and any other projectiles, which is a primary component of my defensive gameplay. Blazing Shield was ignored, Channeled Focus was initially tweaked to force us to stay within its radius, and my cherished Toppling Charge is still not fully functional. With healing being one of the last group roles that Templars naturally excelled at, there's a reason many people get emotionally aggressive when changes are suggested.

Currently, the biggest issue I'm seeing is Wrobel's vision of Cyrodiil and how it's so disconnected from everyone else's actual experience. He's playing a numbers game and going off the feedback his team feeds him, but if this game is ever going to become remotely balanced, it starts with him actually playing the game for himself.

Essiaga · February 2016

Farorin wrote: »

Radburn wrote: »

PhatGrimReaper wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

As of this post our feedback thread is the same size as all of our Nightblade, Dragonknight and Sorceror feedback combined.

Food for thought!

Clearly Templars cry too much

Plot twist: @Wrobel is powered by Templar tears, if he fixed them he would cease to exist.

What if Wrobel is doing this on purpose because of how pissed he is at the community for picking on him all the time?

Maybe he is just trolling us for lulz.

If that's the case then he absolutely needs to lose his job. I took **** all the time for broken things I never seen or touched at my job. He's management. The buck stops there.

Honestly his boss needs to be reviewed as well and I'm not just talk about this class. I'm talking Battle Spirit. It's a stop gap that's become a permanent symbol of imbalance that effects some far more then others and has not be phased out in any way that I see. In fact it looks like damage and healing is going to need to drop to 75% reduction soon because dps just keeps creeping while mitigation stays the same. Terrible design that needs reworked but instead he's worrying about Sorc Pets and appeasing the streamers (and I say this for more then just BOL nerf).

How do you re-balance classes around that imbalance? it just means you'll never fix what you broke and only end up with more and more flaws. Like never washing the dishes. Eventually its going to get to the point were you're sink is full and you're getting sick from filth. Clean up after yourself.

eserras7b16_ESO · February 2016

Ya but @FENGRUSH we're kinda dissapointed some of us don't have another class leveled up, like me, not having intentions too neither because we're just templar players, we've been sharing feedback to ZoS constantly. They seem to listen but then they change whatever they feel, not what 90% of the community asks for, what do you expect if not negativity? Don't get me wrong, BoL nerf might've been a good idea, but then they need to give us other tools, specialy being in a bad spot as we're.

How about that, as a magicka templar wich I played since beta i'm barely killing 5 dudes before i get killed. As a nightblade on the non-vet campain i've got a streak of 46. I know on non-vet there's some noobs around and the champion points and all the stuff with the gear, but still NB for example feels more responsive, faster, templar feels heavy, and not strong enough to compensate.

Nifty2g · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nice, the poster boy for Templar nerfs is here.

Thanks for the positive feedback - thats pretty much what I was hoping for.

You are the most popular and vocal proponent of Templar nerfs, so yeah you expected correctly.

Also, it is positive. Your post will likely get someone other than the moderators to look at this thread. We might even get a dev post now.

I highly doubt it, ZOS have stated they won't be updating anything until next major update didn't they? To quote @FENGRUSH in one of my favorite and most true things ever said "We're listening but we don't know what the *** we're doing"

We're probably going to get that just in a sweeter way with a green text added to it

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2016

Make ALL damage shields scale off 1 of either health, or magica or heath+magica divided by 2.

you didnt need to make a one size fits all shield nerf in pvp. you needed to balance the actual equality between shields. sorcs are so powerful because you gave them a shield that scales off of max magica which happens to INCREASE DAMAGE at the same time as increasing defence. THIS IS WHERE THE IMBALANCE IS.
IF you are ok with using the damage modifier to scale shields then fine MAKE ALL SHIELDS MAGICA SCALED. IF you think, OOOH WAIT that seems unreasonable to have your min max dps modifier generating the strongest possible shield then, Make ALL SHIELDS HEALTH SCALED. another option is half of your added health+magica.

loosing blazing shield and blinding flashes made your vision of templars standing ground while actually fighting back a lesson in history. getting a sun shield that scaled off of magica would help our defences and help make up for 0 mobility.
and if you went the health scaling route then it would help by forcing sorcs to get some health instead of 100% in magica making them have to sacrifice something like the rest of us

Nifty2g · February 2016

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Make ALL damage shields scale off 1 of either health, or magica or heath+magica divided by 2.

you didnt need to make a one size fits all shield nerf in pvp. you needed to balance the actual equality between shields. sorcs are so powerful because you gave them a shield that scales off of max magica which happens to INCREASE DAMAGE at the same time as increasing defence. THIS IS WHERE THE IMBALANCE IS.
IF you are ok with using the damage modifier to scale shields then fine MAKE ALL SHIELDS MAGICA SCALED. IF you think, OOOH WAIT that seems unreasonable to have your min max dps modifier generating the strongest possible shield then, Make ALL SHIELDS HEALTH SCALED. another option is half of your added health+magica.

loosing blazing shield and blinding flashes made your vision of templars standing ground while actually fighting back a lesson in history. getting a sun shield that scaled off of magica would help our defences and help make up for 0 mobility.
and if you went the health scaling route then it would help by forcing sorcs to get some health instead of 100% in magica making them have to sacrifice something like the rest of us

1 Make shields scale from your max stat (yay everyone gets a shield wooooo stamina builds)
2 Give up to 75%+ diminishing returns on your next casted shield to reduce shield stacking and toxic play
3 Introduces smart play and use of shields

Easy fix. Too bad ZOS won't do it.

Husan · February 2016

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/247602/the-three-little-noobs-a-zenimax-online-studios-bedtime-story

Does anyone else find it absurd, that a templar is supposed to be like "this is sort of like my house and if you come into my house it's gonna be bad for you" (literally the words of Eric Wrobel), yet a sorceror, whose playstyle is supposed to be this really mobile and high-burst class can do this exact job waaaaay better? I'm talking about put down mines, drop an atronach, then see who dares to come close to you. THAT'S called a house. Drop mines in a small corridor in imperial sewers (or literally in a house in Cyrodiil) and watch enemies kill themselves for being dumb enough to walk into "your house". I want that feeling as a templar.

eliisra · February 2016

One of the most brutal templar nerfs this patch(not sure everyone gets that yet), is the changes to Rapid Maneuver.

Healing an ally will now remove the speed buff and snare immunity.

But Templars have no self-heals, templars have no viable self-shield since 1.7. All our heals are smart heals so they land on allies regardless. Even Honor of the Dead will go somewhere else if nearby guy is on lower health. So by trying to heal ourself to prevent dying while being hunted by zerg, we loose snare immunity, we loose speed. Run over by enemy raid and *** explode.

We're suppose to not heal ourself and just die, when we have Rapid on? Or maybe loose Rapid and die from that? What to pick.

How come all general changes ends up nerfing templars? The change to RM doesn't effects sorcs at all, for example.

This complete lack of judgement from developer side when it comes to nerfplars, it's just to shocking and why I wont be playing TG at all.

Faulgor · February 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Other things needing reworks youll hear are shields for mag sorcs and healing overall, but these are 2 things that are dangerous to consider in isolation. Overnerf mag sorc shields and suddenly the class is useless. Consider healing:damage ratio meta changes and people end up saying nerf templar.

I'd have to say healing overall and the healing:damage ratio is what annoys me the most recently about ESO.
In PvE, it's impossible to make a build that doesn't have some strategy to heal. Everybody needs to be a healer. It's impossible to rely on some other type of defense to avoid losing health, like a build that focuses on dodging or blocking, as even those builds need to heal sooner or later. This is especially troublesome for stamina builds, because the only useful heal for them is Vigor (unless you are a stam sorc).
In PvP, which I can only speak of with limited experience, it's just as bad. You see people being down to 30, 20% and then back to near full health all the time. I remember when they introduced the battle spirit debuffs with IC, one of their main argument was that this was supposed to "stop health bars flipping back and forth". Well, as far as I can see it hasn't changed a lot.

What I'd like to see is for damage to actually stick, but be harder to apply (yes, this also means ganking me down to 40% health from a stealth attack is not fun). There are probably several ways to go about this, but two key factors are that 1) resistances are worth a wet paperbag (even the tankiest of tanks can only mitigate 50% of damage? please) and 2) healing is too strong.

And I'm saying that with a Templar healer as my main, followed by stamina sorc. The importance of healing makes for both boring health-ping-pong gameplay and lack of build diversity. Which is exactly why I want more options in the defensive/CC/buff/debuff area for Templars besides healing.

I don't know. Maybe it's because I like fighting games, and you usually don't heal in those (good riddance, Elena. SFV launch in a few hours!).

And I always had respect for FENGRUSH because he fought for the interests of us stamina sorcs when few people even thought about that build, and I'm glad I actually listened to what he said and didn't believe all the rumours spread about his influence on the recent Templar changes.

tinythinker · February 2016

Thanks for the contribution, @FENGRUSH. I agree that skill should matter but I also think some players, because of physical limitations, time they have to practice, lack of gear for the one or two "it" builds, etc, need to have room for errors and a chance to recover from a mistake. But these are hard to reconcile, and even moreso with the removal of soft caps and the introduction of the Champion System. I use myself as an example below in terms of PvP.

From Beta through 1.5, I felt like each time I was able to get better gear or find more time for PvP, I was getting better. I would last a little longer against better players and have a remote chance against average players, and a better chance to beat subpar players like me. So I could imagine that one day, with enough improvement, I could move into the ranks of the average or dare I say even slightly above average players.

Chance Vs. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Pre-1.6/2.0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Post-1.6/2.0
Top 10% elite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____0%____ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____0%____
Next 20% superb. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____2%____ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____0%____
Next 10% above average. . . . . . . . . . . . . ____8%____ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____2%____
Next 10% below average. . . . . . . . . . . . . ____25%____ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____8%____
Next 20% subpar. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____50%____ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____25%____
Bottom 10% awful. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____80%____ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ____50%____

The graph is for 1v1 situations. Now, I try to avoid those situations and prefer to play in small to medium groups, because in PvP that's where all of my characters (and me as a player) will do best. Doesn't matter what build. Anything where I get focused = death. But the funny thing is, Pre-1.6/2.0, I actually did much better when I did end up in a 1v1, and like I said, I felt improvement was both possible and happening, albeit incrementally. Those sad numbers on the left were moving up! I started going from 50/50 PvE vs PvP time spent to 20/70 or 10/90. Somehow, though, I now have both a decreased chance versus *both* the best and the worst players in such 1v1 situations. Not sure how ZOS managed that, but, it's kind of impressive.

So you end up having people who want to show off in streams or vids while dueling and 1vXing getting mad that the less skilled/less experienced players are having it too easy and thinking they should die faster, and the less skilled/experienced players getting mad that they can still be face-rolled even when outnumbering an opponent five or six to one. Both sides seem to frequently arrive at the conclusion called "nerf". (I won't claim whether or not this includes you unless I start watching your stream.)

Basically, my concern in PvP is for increased parity so that the top and bottom 30% get pulled towards the middle in terms of how strong (or weak) they can build a character. If that is (re-)achieved or being worked on in a serious way, then I am open to talking about revising abilities and other mechanics to enhance the value and roll of skill -- actual skill -- rather than exploiting broken abilities and unbalanced mechanics and calling it skill (which too many players are prone to do).

Yet beyond PvP, there is also the issue of how imbalances in power and resources affect PvE and grouped content. In both PvP and PvE, Templars are defined by a very few class skills, and the solution to this seems to be to nerf them to force players to use other class skills. And as I've said in many comments in multiple threads since the notes for 2.3.0 dropped, this is a major reason why people were so upset with the BoL nerf. BoL, Cleansing Ritual (and morphs), and Repentance are the top 3 abilities Templars slot from their healing and utility suite; far and away, no matter the play style or build. Those three have carried the Restoring Light skill tree since Beta. So touching any of them will quickly draw the ire and wrath of a large number of players who main or co-main Templars.

To a lesser degree this pattern is true of the Dawn's Wrath skill line as well. Nova (either morph) and Radiant Destruction (especially Radiant Oppression) do most of the heavy lifting. Dark Flare and Sun Fire (both morphs) get some use in PvE damage dealer builds (and Dark does still show up from time to time in PvP). The Aedric Spear skill line fairs best, but Toppling Charge might not work or might lock you out of your skill bar and Sun Shield got nerfed a long while back and then nerfed again by the Battle Spirit changes, so those aren't slotted as often as they used to be.

This is why there have been so many suggestions for fixing Templars over the past couple of years, even moreso than for other classes, which you seem to understand and appreciate. I've written suggestions for other classes, too, but Templar just seems to be in an odd perpetual Limbo where every so often they seem poised to move forward and then drift sideways. Sure, the class is playable. The reports of utter despair and unending doom are a bit dramatic for my tastes. And yes, a great player can make them seem unstoppable. But they never quite seem to fit in practice what the vision articulated by ZOS suggests, so the players who run them tend to use fewer and fewer class skills (whereas my VR16 DK, NB, and two Sorcs often have 3-4 class skills on a bar).

I have no plans to long-term bench or completely ditch my Templar from the active rotation of characters I use, and I will probably keep theorycrafting possible changes or additions to ESO on the forums because I enjoy it, but I can't say I really expect much out of Templar changes anymore. I'm glad for those who like to run heavily offensive/damage dealer style magicka Templars, though. Might try it myself one day.

Idinuse · February 2016

eliisra wrote: »

One of the most brutal templar nerfs this patch(not sure everyone gets that yet), is the changes to Rapid Maneuver.

Healing an ally will now remove the speed buff and snare immunity.
But Templars have no self-heals, templars have no viable self-shield since 1.7. All our heals are smart heals so they land on allies regardless. Even Honor of the Dead will go somewhere else if nearby guy is on lower health. So by trying to heal ourself to prevent dying while being hunted by zerg, we loose snare immunity, we loose speed. Run over by enemy raid and *** explode.

We're suppose to not heal ourself and just die, when we have Rapid on? Or maybe loose Rapid and die from that? What to pick.

How come all general changes ends up nerfing templars? The change to RM doesn't effects sorcs at all, for example.
This complete lack of judgement from developer side when it comes to nerfplars, it's just to shocking and why I wont be playing TG at all.

Maybe it is envisioned that the dedicated Healer class (with an entire Class Skill Tree dedicated to healing), in ESO:TU is supposed to use a Healing Potion in this particular situation.

Edit:

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · February 2016

Im trying to figure out why this thread is here. The powers that be have already said they have a vision and feedback be damned they are going to stick with it. So why ask for feedback?

tinythinker · February 2016

Idinuse wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

One of the most brutal templar nerfs this patch(not sure everyone gets that yet), is the changes to Rapid Maneuver.

Healing an ally will now remove the speed buff and snare immunity.
But Templars have no self-heals, templars have no viable self-shield since 1.7. All our heals are smart heals so they land on allies regardless. Even Honor of the Dead will go somewhere else if nearby guy is on lower health. So by trying to heal ourself to prevent dying while being hunted by zerg, we loose snare immunity, we loose speed. Run over by enemy raid and *** explode.

We're suppose to not heal ourself and just die, when we have Rapid on? Or maybe loose Rapid and die from that? What to pick.

How come all general changes ends up nerfing templars? The change to RM doesn't effects sorcs at all, for example.
This complete lack of judgement from developer side when it comes to nerfplars, it's just to shocking and why I wont be playing TG at all.

Maybe it is envisioned that the dedicated Healer class (with an entire Class Skill Tree dedicated to healing), in ESO:TU is supposed to use a Healing Potion in this particular situation.

If so that would have been a better answer this past Friday than suggesting that a better chance at avoiding this unbuffing is why Honor the Dead makes a better choice than Breath of Life with the coming changes.

myrrrorb14_ESO · February 2016

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Im trying to figure out why this thread is here. The powers that be have already said they have a vision and feedback be damned they are going to stick with it. So why ask for feedback?

They love the taste of tears and anger!

It's to keep all of this out of the general threads. Best to keep it in one spot instead of 100s of other threads.

Essiaga · February 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

I have been watching the, "We Are ESO" podcast and others like it and have been noticing that Richard Lambert and the other game DEVS have been watching it as well. What was the one thing all these 1vX streamers had in common? Nerf Templars.

Except it was never nerf Templars but to make smart healing spam not effective against targets that are through walls/floors. Again, it is a line of sight issue which ZOS continues to ignore. If that same healer had to expose themself to heal a player then they could more easily be targeted instead of being who knows where within a 28m radius. You can blame the PvPers but really this is solely ZOS' fault for once again not understanding the real problem: smart healing.

Not true. In their first podcast they all agreed that templars were pretty much fine despite none of them playing one (only later did Sypher level one up and it is still stuck at VR1). They then proceedee to spend 2 shows talking about how screwed DKs are and how they need buffs. All of those guys helped in creating the image of a templar class that was doing just fine because of their ignorance or lack of knowledge. Only as of late have Fengrush turned around and kind of aknowledged he was wrong. Sypher still doesn't even bother spending his time doing the templar fight and Richard and Lucy just seem to be in a constant haze of "*** ZOS". Fengrush has definetely earned my respect for aknowledging the issues our class is in, but he also plays stamsorc so he can relate. Sypher knows we're *** and he will now aknowledge that somewhat when asked, but don't really care, and Lucy and Richard are just clueless on the subject and would rather spent all of their stream time on criticizing ZOS it seems.

Cinbri wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Call' em up by name:

@Sypher, @FENGRUSH come on down! The price is right! Your chance to contribute to this discussion!

None of them tried to play magicka templar in open world pvp, i.e. opinion irrelevant. Why you need to call them? To transfrom feedback thread into trash?

Ill put in some feedback since I was tagged in here and to comment on We Are ESO.

Ill preface by saying I largely avoided this thread and some other templar threads because I received a lot of negative feedback and I didnt find it really productive to talk about issues I had from my perspective in Cyro. I did kind of end having those talks doing a 'rant' on my stream in a video I posted about templars mainly - some of you may have seen it. Me trying to kill people and not being able to kill them in a meta focused primarily around burst becomes impossible through BOL once numbers come into play. I find this to be a really poor design that focuses the game towards numbers in the fight and less about skill is the long and short of it - ESO didnt used to be like this and I hate to see it.

As far as what the issue was is another story. Some of you will hear me scream "welp, hes just getting flooded back to full HP with BOL no point in trying to kill this guy" on stream. This is technically true - but its a symptom of the problem and on stream I can technically go on about whatever is happening, Im not trying to have a constructive talk about whats going on in the middle of fights when Im streaming. The reality is that its a symptom of the problem. A game developer has to look at this and treat the root cause of the issue, not the symptom. As I detailed in my rant, I believe it primarily stems from resource management issues where its too easy to spam resources endlessly (such as BOL) - but this applies to everything (also mentioned in the rant video) example: endless rolling, vigor spamming for high effectiveness and low cost. These things become staples to gameplay everywhere in PvP and for me personally - it makes it a lot less strategical where you can and have to just 'run that constantly in the fight' rather than make a choice as to when to vigor and when to hammer out BOLs.

I find the champion system to have screwed up so many things, and while they made better changes to it this patch to try to balance it out - they still missed some things (like no physical ults scaling with anything but DK leap, yet adding Hardy). As a stam sorc I do even less damage with my ult that never scaled with CP, and less damage overall - but its besides the point. The champion system is screwed in so many ways and its skewed the ability to balance the game. Builds are able to factor in huge values of power and resource management - and the later is the real issue because you have to sacrifice very little to get to your end state functional build.

But thats just an opening to brace for the impact of hatred I will receive for even daring to post in such a thread! Magicka and stam templars suffer from different issues ultimately. A stamplar can manage rapids though its not really ideal to assist in mobility. A magicka templar never should be and pretty much set themselves up for suicide in a small/even scaled scenario where they become a target right after (especially considering the rapids nerf). This is going to hit you guys REAL hard in the mobility/survival department. Stamplars dont really specialize in anything, and they used to. When stam jabs worked well, they were the best steady DPS for stam and they had something that defined them then. All classes were able to kill with high burst windows then - but stamplar was exceptional at doing so. They broke those jabs from functioning as they did, and while a skilled stamplar could still manage things effectively, youd see top stamplars swinging in even WB when they really didnt need to before to achieve burst they shouldnt have to given what they specialized in. As a master of nothing in stam sorc, I can relate well with them.

Magicka templar is a whole different story. To people who feel I have no experience with templar, its not really true. I understand the class pretty well - I played it almost a full year through beta. I switched to sorc at release with no experience on it. I love support, its what I primarily do in most games I play. I played my magicka sorc as a utility support at release with my group, I wasnt a killer per se. Even as they nerfed the build I used I stuck to that - being one of the only sorcs using a sword/shield streaking through front lines laying down negates and focusing entirely on utility, I really enjoyed that role. That was eventually demolished as a build. I play as a DPS stam sorc because theres literally nothing else to do with it - and I hated what magicka sorcs were when I came back to the game. Ive played on magicka templar though when I came back as I test the builds that my magicka templar would use. Im very capable at making builds for it, and been asked for the magicka templar build in my group a lot on stream (even though its nothing special). The group I ran with through IC patch every day is myself (stam sorc), magicka templar, and stam templar. Im very much in tune with how this class operates and what its capable of, because even though there is 3 of us, we were geared and setup to compliment each other and be very strong as 3 people.. which we were.

Sorry for the long post - but Im trying to cut out a lot of the negativity I will get posting here. Magicka templars are actually rather capable when built offensively - even more so in this coming patch. What theyve been diminished to defensively (as noted in my rant) is heal spam bots, and they have even nerfed BOL now, which I specifically advocated against doing in that video. They needed bug fixes for starters - but I think what everyone wanted was to see more utility options added in their gameplay. I respect Wrobels concept of class diversity, but he has to also understand what a normal day of PVP looks like in Cyro - which he seems really out of touch with. Templars are not building houses in various locations for PVP and daring foes to enter at their own demise. I laughed so hard when I heard this - and you guys probably laughed in a rather sad way. Probably just like I did when they said 'oh yea, stam sorcs? We heard about those too - stand by until update 10'. Because they added so many things for us in the last 3 updates.. Shield has never been fixed for magicka templars, but shields in total have been neglected from ones that are too strong and ones that are too weak. They dont really know what to do here, and so they havent done anything. They want to do a 1-fix-all change to shields that will make templar shields better and magicka sorcs shields stronger - THIS IS HOW THEY DESIGN. And while this wont translate to a practical solution approach, its the kind that they believe will make sense and even be a more logical balanced solution. So you will likely see a change to both - even though all they have done this patch is put in a CP passive that would make it even worse for you.

Balance obviously cant be struck in isolation. When it comes to WB spam - templars are the first on my list and most any decent player. What is your counter? What is my counter to stop them from healing? People say use defile - and I have. My general experience is defile will be purged by any competent player before I ever get more than 1 swing off after it, and when numbers are out of my favor, it simply doesnt matter. This is a wider issue that stems outside of just magicka templar and WB needing to be changed (but templars also having some OTHER options and what they do other than to inform the enemy that they just entered their house). Ive advocated for buffs to other weapon lines while also adjusting WB - nobody lucks dumbed down gameplay - but alas we are told, standby until update 10.

I think we want the same thing a lot of times, not always.... I really want high skill play with choices needing to be made. I want resources to matter in a fight and stressing players into making bad ones having an effect 30seconds later in the fight. This doesnt exist today. Either you burst and blow stuff away or you try again. Its something driving people from the game at higher skilled ceiling gameplay. I dont even bother talking about a lot of it other than trolling/joking on forums mostly because its so damn futile, and I am someone with a stream and a podcast. To answer why it wasnt talked about on We are ESO - because we talked about some classes and I even suggested we need to talk about the big issues plaguing cyro before we talk about balance of classes. Class balance means nothing if the game is broken. This also included cutting my class out of the discussion - but the reality is I dont think this impacted the changes we see all the much. We are ESO is effective in mobilizing the community more than anything I believe. After our last podcast we had a dev join our teamspeak only to tell us something along the lines of 'hey this podcast was better - I could actually stomach your content this time.. I didnt even bother watching the last 4'. Thats real swell - he couldnt stand to hear our feedback because it strikes him too negatively. Sorry we cant sing praises during what I feel is the WORST patch in pvp from a perspective of balance and game play (performance/lag aside - which isnt good either). The best thing we could have is discussion and a line of communication. If wrobel is dreaming of a world where templars are some mystical badass in shiny armor fending off legions of challengers inside the glowing auras hes placed around him - what can we really do? I dont have any problem with him dreaming this - but the players can effectively help solution getting you there. Because that ring around the templar doesnt mean much, and its not getting better next patch.

I wish I could do more for my sake, for you guys, and all of the players. Despite what you hear or see from me Ive spent more quite a lot of time outside of the game trying to do something about it - and so have others like Sypher that you tagged. Without communication to those making changes, nothing great can get done. ZOS does hear your problems, they really do. They are reading it. The real problem is they isolate themselves during the solution phase and implement solutions based on what they feel or how they would like it to be and miss valuable input from players on how that would translate to real world PVP. This applies for all classes, and some will get the short end more than others.

Probably the longest post I ever wrote - but didnt take more than 15mins to write and 0 proofreading. Congrats if you make it through it all!

I don't follow your stream, or any streams so my perception of you is based on We Are ESO and some of the post around the forums. To be honest you usually come across highly biased (though I'm sure I do as well), but this was probably one of the best post I've read on the forums. Thanks for taking the high road and being objective.

I think @Sypher making a video on the weakness on the magicka DK after having Jules (who's done a great job of championing the DK) on 'We are ESO' multiple times to discuss it and then seeing the Magicka DK get some solid work done to it is something that doesn't sit well with the Templar community. None of the panelist are championing or even playing the Templar and we got the least amount of work. It's simply not represented.

I think Battle Spirit needs to be discussed at length on We are ESO.

Jura23 · February 2016

core problem = smart healing. *** mechanic if you ask me.

bikerangelo · February 2016

Idinuse wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

One of the most brutal templar nerfs this patch(not sure everyone gets that yet), is the changes to Rapid Maneuver.

Healing an ally will now remove the speed buff and snare immunity.
But Templars have no self-heals, templars have no viable self-shield since 1.7. All our heals are smart heals so they land on allies regardless. Even Honor of the Dead will go somewhere else if nearby guy is on lower health. So by trying to heal ourself to prevent dying while being hunted by zerg, we loose snare immunity, we loose speed. Run over by enemy raid and *** explode.

We're suppose to not heal ourself and just die, when we have Rapid on? Or maybe loose Rapid and die from that? What to pick.

How come all general changes ends up nerfing templars? The change to RM doesn't effects sorcs at all, for example.
This complete lack of judgement from developer side when it comes to nerfplars, it's just to shocking and why I wont be playing TG at all.

Maybe it is envisioned that the dedicated Healer class (with an entire Class Skill Tree dedicated to healing), in ESO:TU is supposed to use a Healing Potion in this particular situation.

Edit: apparently he was joking.

This change is bad all around except for 1 class; sorcs. Templars don't have self only healing, Stam builds use Vigor which is an aoe heal, DK's will use Healing Ward or Blessing of Protection (since Dragon's Blood still hasn't been addressed), which will hit others in the area, but magic sorcs can just shield stack and streak away. The reduction to Major Expedition is also a joke, as magic classes aren't going to waste their stamina sprinting away like stam classes. The only positive in this change is thinning of the zerg herd will be a little easier.

TRoclodyte · February 2016

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Im trying to figure out why this thread is here. The powers that be have already said they have a vision and feedback be damned they are going to stick with it. So why ask for feedback?

They just want to cage our anger here so the rest of the forums look like happy-happy lands.

Jura23 · February 2016

bikerangelo wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

One of the most brutal templar nerfs this patch(not sure everyone gets that yet), is the changes to Rapid Maneuver.

Healing an ally will now remove the speed buff and snare immunity.
But Templars have no self-heals, templars have no viable self-shield since 1.7. All our heals are smart heals so they land on allies regardless. Even Honor of the Dead will go somewhere else if nearby guy is on lower health. So by trying to heal ourself to prevent dying while being hunted by zerg, we loose snare immunity, we loose speed. Run over by enemy raid and *** explode.

We're suppose to not heal ourself and just die, when we have Rapid on? Or maybe loose Rapid and die from that? What to pick.

How come all general changes ends up nerfing templars? The change to RM doesn't effects sorcs at all, for example.
This complete lack of judgement from developer side when it comes to nerfplars, it's just to shocking and why I wont be playing TG at all.

Maybe it is envisioned that the dedicated Healer class (with an entire Class Skill Tree dedicated to healing), in ESO:TU is supposed to use a Healing Potion in this particular situation.

The Wrobel logic is spreading. Please tell me how a 6k hp pot is going to help when you're trying to evade a zerg who is gap closing you persistantly.

This change is bad all around except for 1 class; sorcs. Templars don't have self only healing, Stam builds use Vigor which is an aoe heal, DK's will use Healing Ward or Blessing of Protection (since Dragon's Blood still hasn't been addressed), which will hit others in the area, but magic sorcs can just shield stack and streak away. The reduction to Major Expedition is also a joke, as magic classes aren't going to waste their stamina sprinting away like stam classes. The only positive in this change is thinning of the zerg herd will be a little easier.

Since you will 100% die if you dont escape that zerg, then having extra stam for breaking cc is pointless. So I say sprint for life, then you can complain if its not enough.

bikerangelo · February 2016

Jura23 wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

One of the most brutal templar nerfs this patch(not sure everyone gets that yet), is the changes to Rapid Maneuver.

Healing an ally will now remove the speed buff and snare immunity.
But Templars have no self-heals, templars have no viable self-shield since 1.7. All our heals are smart heals so they land on allies regardless. Even Honor of the Dead will go somewhere else if nearby guy is on lower health. So by trying to heal ourself to prevent dying while being hunted by zerg, we loose snare immunity, we loose speed. Run over by enemy raid and *** explode.

We're suppose to not heal ourself and just die, when we have Rapid on? Or maybe loose Rapid and die from that? What to pick.

How come all general changes ends up nerfing templars? The change to RM doesn't effects sorcs at all, for example.
This complete lack of judgement from developer side when it comes to nerfplars, it's just to shocking and why I wont be playing TG at all.

Maybe it is envisioned that the dedicated Healer class (with an entire Class Skill Tree dedicated to healing), in ESO:TU is supposed to use a Healing Potion in this particular situation.

The Wrobel logic is spreading. Please tell me how a 6k hp pot is going to help when you're trying to evade a zerg who is gap closing you persistantly.

This change is bad all around except for 1 class; sorcs. Templars don't have self only healing, Stam builds use Vigor which is an aoe heal, DK's will use Healing Ward or Blessing of Protection (since Dragon's Blood still hasn't been addressed), which will hit others in the area, but magic sorcs can just shield stack and streak away. The reduction to Major Expedition is also a joke, as magic classes aren't going to waste their stamina sprinting away like stam classes. The only positive in this change is thinning of the zerg herd will be a little easier.

Since you will 100% die if you dont escape that zerg, then having extra stam for breaking cc is pointless. So I say sprint for life, then you can complain if its not enough.

Or just make sure your juke game is really strong.

Joy_Division · February 2016

Another slow moment at work means another moment to think about how I am supposed to defend my house from the otehr three classes so adept at breaking and entering ...

Couple of things.

Regarding @FENGRUSH , if you did not read his post, he has since re-articulated his views and put his objections to BoL spamming in context with the larger flaws on ESO's game design that are symptomatic of problems with spamming from all the classes and play-styles. His most recent "rant" video is actually insightful and I find myself agreeing with it a lot. There was a time when build choice mattered and tempalrs couldn't just spam BoL and sorcs couldn't just spam WB. Broken mechanics create crutches and nerfing one of these crutches solves nothing as long as the others remain. I know he has become something of a posterboy for the many people frustrated with healing spam, but I (now) find that label unfair. Anyone who is willing to rethink and refine their position to consider the larger context is deserving of respect and he has more than done this IMHO. If he were hired as a game designer, I would buy it.

@Essiaga has a interesting idea in theory to make dedicated threads about our problems skills where we can focus our complaints. I normally would agree, but I think @Zheg is correct in that the primary problem here is ZoS's philosophy of how they update their game: namely their internal staff tests this stuff in a secret laboratory without any input on our part and then springs on update upon us as a fait accompli, either lacking the means or willingness to make substantive changes. I mean we have been saying the same stuff for a year now - indeed I am shocked with just how much general agreement there is among templars what skills are poor and why (this is BAD btw ... ideally RPGs should strive for more ambiguity and have its players arguing what's mediocre, good, and great to encourage build and play diversity). Yet, here we still are with stuff like Healing Ritual and Radiant Aura that we won't slot. The state of Templar frustration is a huge indictment of ZoS's way of update and re-balancing their game.

The more I think about these changes, the more I am frustrated with just how constraining they are. If you are a stamplar, you better be fighting inside your "house" or the only thing this patch has given you is 8 more meters on your javelin skill. If you are a magicka build, it's probably best to ditch the whole "house" concept and go glass cannon because all of your defensive skills have either gotten nerfed or are still terrible. Joy, I'm a NB without cloak or a sorcerer without shields.