Official Feedback Thread for Templars

TheM0rganism

When is the next PTS incremental patch? Tmr?

nagarjunna

Taken from ZOS site - working at ZOS

LIFE AT ZOS

ZeniMax Online Studios designs and creates multiplayer online games, including 2014's The Elder Scrolls Online. Our mission statement is to enable our world-class designers and developers to create the best and most immersive gaming experiences. We hire the best and give them the space to grow and be successful. Our development studio in Hunt Valley, Maryland, is the perfect place to design and create games. Close to Baltimore, but in the middle of green and historic Hunt Valley, ZOS HQ has it all. Our facilities feature a cafeteria serving lunch with free snacks, soda, and juices all day, and a fully-equipped gym. Come and work with the best and the brightest in the online game development world!

Yep! Our house!

BalticBlues

SeptimusDova wrote: »

TEMPLARS REJOICE we have set a new record !!!
we beat the previous record of 37 pages.

And instead of improvement we already smell the next Templar nerf incoming about rezzing. And again it is the PvP community of DD streamers who easily catch ZOS' ears while we Templars have no lobbyists, because no competitive PvP streamer would play a crippled Templar anymore to let his audience see how he sucks with it.

Spacemonkey

I figured I'd post this here also, concerning 'The House':

Actually, been playing templar since beta (Haven't been able to put many hours since 1.6 - work reasons, but still consistently a few every week) - It's my only vet character

And I very much want Wrobel's 'vision' for the templars. Here's a quick flash from the past::

It is in fact smack on the build I had prior 1.6, mixing up def buffs + rune and fighters guild circle of protection, I'd over double my res and armor past the SOFTCAPS. (Yes 200% of softcaps, dyou realize how much that was???). I was the most unkillable healer in the game. I'd stay in my @)$(* house , heal and def buff teamates, and overall protect the crap out of them. Oh I was no tank. (no aggro), but it is so much easier resource-wise (thus not mattering if I was stam or magicka for healing) to keep everyone healed up when you don't have to worry about yourself. To add, I was stam/hp hybrid (still am). This worked awesomely. Add another similar templar build to the team, we could def buff so high with those AoEs; we were nigh unkillable in Dungeons. (When a boss smacks you repeatdly, the HEALER, and you're just shrugging it off, no stress, and res-ing fallen teamates etc...) And if all hell broke loose youd launch the heal ultimate which would bring your def and res near 300% past softcap (ok maybe 250%) and give crazy regens to all 3 bars even though you were rooted. Killing you in that ulti was litterally unfeasible. This was back when I'd slot WB because of the awesome CC, not because it was the only viable dmg option other than Jabs. This was back when only 4 out of my 12 slotted skills weren't from the Templar skills.

In PVE this was fun, excellent, fine. Because you need others to kill the stuff, dmg being rather sub par.
In PVP apparently this was exceedingly frustrating for DPSs or something, because 1.6 changed ALL of that. (as in, what do you mean 3 DPS can't burst you down? Doesn't matter if those 3 DPS are mostly safe because you dont have the mobility or dmage to kill them - obviously you are OP and need to be nerfed. Funny how DPS seems to be the only role that matters in PvP).

See I really LIKE 'The House'. My house was the ***!! I didn't care what was going on, I'd be standing in my [insert profanity] house and those long range DPS builds were exercising futility trying to kill me in it - even those up close weren't having an easy time. DKs were my worse nightmare, (with their chains, pulling me out of my precious house). People new better than to waste all those resources killing templars in their houses so they got them to leave em, pulling them out, throwing them out, anything. Priority was to get the temp out of his multi AoE stacking madness house. And why even bother on the templar? Because if you didnt kill them, they'd be healing, buffing, and keeping alive all the other people that WERE a threat. Even if they did kill me, I didn't mind, I felt like I put up a fight and made them waste time. Nowadays I just feel like I'm giving free AP to everyone....

So yes @Wrobel, I very much get your vision, and very much do want it.
But every patch and step since 1.6 has been driving the meta steadily away from the very possibility of having a functional AoE house - dmg mitigation is a joke (seriously), burst dmg is way too great and healing is crippled in PvP (the fact we still manage burst healing is a testament to how dedicated some healers are)

Ashtaris

blackcom90 wrote: »

Ooookay... we are skyrocketting towards the 2000 comments... WHERE THE HELL THE ZOS IS? ISN'T THIS THE OFFICIAL THREAD!?!?

The short answer? They don't care. They have already made up their mind like the "No Stamina Regen While Blocking" issue and no amount of logic, truth, correctness, proof, or whining will make them change it. So we either live with what we have, or retire our Templars, that's it.

blackcom90

Ashtaris wrote: »

blackcom90 wrote: »

Ooookay... we are skyrocketting towards the 2000 comments... WHERE THE HELL THE ZOS IS? ISN'T THIS THE OFFICIAL THREAD!?!?

The short answer? They don't care. They have already made up their mind like the "No Stamina Regen While Blocking" issue and no amount of logic, truth, correctness, proof, or whining will make them change it. So we either live with what we have, or retire our Templars, that's it.

If they liste only to streamers let's open a twitch channel for templars and let's fill it. if in few days we can cause this thread to ubergrow we can do the same on twitch

Kensei_ESO

@FENGRUSH

I think it's great that your posse has the developers' ear. I think the "We Are ESO" guys are really intelligent players and passionate about the game and you have a lot of great ideas. However, it's extra rough for Templars because we don't have a popular streamer to advocate for the class. The reason is obvious - the ability to 1vX on a Templar of either variety is almost nil. I know you think stam sorcs need a lot of love, and they do, but you are nowhere near the bottom of the mobility/burst/evasion totem pole. I think you guys were summoned in hopes that you would advocate, at least a little, since it feels like every meaningful thing we say in here falls on deaf ears.

I hope you took the time to peruse this thread for a deeper understanding of the Templar dilemma. I know you have a lot of ranting to do on stream about other things, but here's some specific food for thought regarding what I strongly feel Templars need, if you have the time:

1. Minor Expedition (+10% movement) buff granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. [add to Burning Light?]

This buff would be completely unique to Templars, would fit nicely into the "crusader of light" persona, and would go a long way toward relieving serious mobility woes for both flavors of Templar. It would be a very mild counter to Sorcerers and Nightblades running around with Major Evasion in addition to their powerful escapes. It has also become more important to add this in response to Dk's receiving a true class gap closer.

2. Minor Evasion (+10% dodge chance) buff granted for 4-8 seconds upon activation of a Dawn's Wrath ability. [add to Prism?]

This buff would also be completely unique to Templars, and would in a small way make up for the fact that Templars otherwise have to soak all of the damage thrown at them, whereas other classes have pretty reliable ways to escape damage.

Soris

Spacemonkey wrote: »

I figured I'd post this here also, concerning 'The House':

Actually, been playing templar since beta (Haven't been able to put many hours since 1.6 - work reasons, but still consistently a few every week) - It's my only vet character

And I very much want Wrobel's 'vision' for the templars. Here's a quick flash from the past::

It is in fact smack on the build I had prior 1.6, mixing up def buffs + rune and fighters guild circle of protection, I'd over double my res and armor past the SOFTCAPS. (Yes 200% of softcaps, dyou realize how much that was???). I was the most unkillable healer in the game. I'd stay in my @)$(* house , heal and def buff teamates, and overall protect the crap out of them. Oh I was no tank. (no aggro), but it is so much easier resource-wise (thus not mattering if I was stam or magicka for healing) to keep everyone healed up when you don't have to worry about yourself. To add, I was stam/hp hybrid (still am). This worked awesomely. Add another similar templar build to the team, we could def buff so high with those AoEs; we were nigh unkillable in Dungeons. (When a boss smacks you repeatdly, the HEALER, and you're just shrugging it off, no stress, and res-ing fallen teamates etc...) And if all hell broke loose youd launch the heal ultimate which would bring your def and res near 300% past softcap (ok maybe 250%) and give crazy regens to all 3 bars even though you were rooted. Killing you in that ulti was litterally unfeasible. This was back when I'd slot WB because of the awesome CC, not because it was the only viable dmg option other than Jabs. This was back when only 4 out of my 12 slotted skills weren't from the Templar skills.

In PVE this was fun, excellent, fine. Because you need others to kill the stuff, dmg being rather sub par.
In PVP apparently this was exceedingly frustrating for DPSs or something, because 1.6 changed ALL of that. (as in, what do you mean 3 DPS can't burst you down? Doesn't matter if those 3 DPS are mostly safe because you dont have the mobility or dmage to kill them - obviously you are OP and need to be nerfed. Funny how DPS seems to be the only role that matters in PvP).

See I really LIKE 'The House'. My house was the ***!! I didn't care what was going on, I'd be standing in my [insert profanity] house and those long range DPS builds were exercising futility trying to kill me in it - even those up close weren't having an easy time. DKs were my worse nightmare, (with their chains, pulling me out of my precious house). People new better than to waste all those resources killing templars in their houses so they got them to leave em, pulling them out, throwing them out, anything. Priority was to get the temp out of his multi AoE stacking madness house. And why even bother on the templar? Because if you didnt kill them, they'd be healing, buffing, and keeping alive all the other people that WERE a threat. Even if they did kill me, I didn't mind, I felt like I put up a fight and made them waste time. Nowadays I just feel like I'm giving free AP to everyone....

So yes @Wrobel, I very much get your vision, and very much do want it.
But every patch and step since 1.6 has been driving the meta steadily away from the very possibility of having a functional AoE house - dmg mitigation is a joke (seriously), burst dmg is way too great and healing is crippled in PvP (the fact we still manage burst healing is a testament to how dedicated some healers are)

I also really like his idea of "house". I had a similar pvp stamina build in late times of 1.5. With buffs, I had almost hard capped armor/resist and soft capped stamina, health, weapon power, magicka regen and stamina regen through radiant aura. I was literally unkillable in my house and that house was HARMING anyone who dare to come near thanks to the blazing shield and flashes. And I was also able to do enough dmg to kill ppl who were overestimated the build or overly aggressive on me in melee range, ie; nbs, dks and templars.

Now THAT is how you describe a house. Not that shítty cabin we currently have in current patch.

Cinbri

Opinion of every player who not biased, at least on EU, is that pvp Templar is worst possible class. I don't understand why zos doesn't see it. They could use tracker and watch how many templars in Cyro. Or used same thing to check how many templars have slotted Eclipse and rest of staff, they will see that number is almost equal to zero; doesn't it mean anything for them.

Soris wrote: »

Spacemonkey wrote: »

I figured I'd post this here also, concerning 'The House':

Actually, been playing templar since beta (Haven't been able to put many hours since 1.6 - work reasons, but still consistently a few every week) - It's my only vet character

And I very much want Wrobel's 'vision' for the templars. Here's a quick flash from the past::

It is in fact smack on the build I had prior 1.6, mixing up def buffs + rune and fighters guild circle of protection, I'd over double my res and armor past the SOFTCAPS. (Yes 200% of softcaps, dyou realize how much that was???). I was the most unkillable healer in the game. I'd stay in my @)$(* house , heal and def buff teamates, and overall protect the crap out of them. Oh I was no tank. (no aggro), but it is so much easier resource-wise (thus not mattering if I was stam or magicka for healing) to keep everyone healed up when you don't have to worry about yourself. To add, I was stam/hp hybrid (still am). This worked awesomely. Add another similar templar build to the team, we could def buff so high with those AoEs; we were nigh unkillable in Dungeons. (When a boss smacks you repeatdly, the HEALER, and you're just shrugging it off, no stress, and res-ing fallen teamates etc...) And if all hell broke loose youd launch the heal ultimate which would bring your def and res near 300% past softcap (ok maybe 250%) and give crazy regens to all 3 bars even though you were rooted. Killing you in that ulti was litterally unfeasible. This was back when I'd slot WB because of the awesome CC, not because it was the only viable dmg option other than Jabs. This was back when only 4 out of my 12 slotted skills weren't from the Templar skills.

In PVE this was fun, excellent, fine. Because you need others to kill the stuff, dmg being rather sub par.
In PVP apparently this was exceedingly frustrating for DPSs or something, because 1.6 changed ALL of that. (as in, what do you mean 3 DPS can't burst you down? Doesn't matter if those 3 DPS are mostly safe because you dont have the mobility or dmage to kill them - obviously you are OP and need to be nerfed. Funny how DPS seems to be the only role that matters in PvP).

See I really LIKE 'The House'. My house was the ***!! I didn't care what was going on, I'd be standing in my [insert profanity] house and those long range DPS builds were exercising futility trying to kill me in it - even those up close weren't having an easy time. DKs were my worse nightmare, (with their chains, pulling me out of my precious house). People new better than to waste all those resources killing templars in their houses so they got them to leave em, pulling them out, throwing them out, anything. Priority was to get the temp out of his multi AoE stacking madness house. And why even bother on the templar? Because if you didnt kill them, they'd be healing, buffing, and keeping alive all the other people that WERE a threat. Even if they did kill me, I didn't mind, I felt like I put up a fight and made them waste time. Nowadays I just feel like I'm giving free AP to everyone....

So yes @Wrobel, I very much get your vision, and very much do want it.
But every patch and step since 1.6 has been driving the meta steadily away from the very possibility of having a functional AoE house - dmg mitigation is a joke (seriously), burst dmg is way too great and healing is crippled in PvP (the fact we still manage burst healing is a testament to how dedicated some healers are)

I also really like his idea of "house". I had a similar pvp stamina build in late times of 1.5. With buffs, I had almost hard capped armor/resist and soft capped stamina, health, weapon power, magicka regen and stamina regen through radiant aura. I was literally unkillable in my house and that house was harming ANYONE who dare to come near thanks to the blazing shield and flashes. And I was also able to do enough dmg to kill ppl who are overestimated the build or overly aggressive on me in melee range, ie; nbs and dks.

Now THAT is how you describe a house. Not that shítty cabin we currently have in current patch.

Sorry, can't hold myself. Welcome to my russian house

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYAkoZeV75I

kaalmoth

Cinbri wrote: »

Opinion of every player who not biased, at least on EU, is that pvp Templar is worst possible class. I don't understand why zos doesn't see it. They could use tracker and watch how many templars in Cyro. Or used same thing to check how many templars have slotted Eclipse and rest of staff, they will see that number is almost equal to zero; doesn't it maen anything for them.

actually I use eclipse a lot
It's very sad it gets nerfed again in TG

Dread_Guy

Maybe @Wrobel is secretly a huge Flo Rida fan and was listening to My House before the podcast. He had a Freudian slip and tried to cover it up by saying that's the templar identity to protect their house. Its the only explanation I can think of since our skill sets just don't support that line of thinking

Zheg

BalticBlues wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

TEMPLARS REJOICE we have set a new record !!!
we beat the previous record of 37 pages.

And instead of improvement we already smell the next Templar nerf incoming about rezzing. And again it is the PvP community of DD streamers who easily catch ZOS' ears while we Templars have no lobbyists, because no competitive PvP streamer would play a crippled Templar anymore to let his audience see how he sucks with it.

I play a rank 10 Templar in kags, and I'll be the first in line to vote for a change to rezzing. I'd much rather a passive that helps with resources or movement. I can get an entire group up in mere seconds, lag permitting. It's a dumb mechanic without a rez sickness or similar mechanic to keep it in line. This isn't a battle Templars should pick imo.

I can go through well over 100 gems in a single night; that's not something I'll miss.

timidobserver

Zheg wrote: »

The most recent posts have washed me of all guilt and shame for my normal wall of text nature.

Side note, I've read pretty much the entire thread and haven't seen this be a focus yet - fasallas guile. One of the questions I posed to wrobel that was answered (but not really...) was what happens when dmg numbers go up, hp and mitigation remain static? Answer = shift to dmg shields and away from reliance on heals, it's a huge hit to temps without any direct changes to our skills. Furthermore, no cooldown on fasallas guile means at least SOMEONE is running it in the enemy hordes you're fighting. Not only is the TG meta promoting shields we don't have, our heals will on average be 50% weaker in most of the fights that matter.

Even though I love Templar, I will be running that set on mine even though I know what it means for healing and the class as a whole. I hope people are at least AWARE of how interwoven into the meta that set will become in pvp if it remains as is. My build is niche and will survive it just fine, but a magicka Templar relying on heals or a stapler relying on vigor? GG.

I have 99 problems on my Temp but a debuff is not one of them. I'm not worried about people using the set on me in solo or small scale PvP, but it will make group healing a bit more interesting. Groups will need to focus on burst/bombing and pulling out rather than spamming aoes at each other for 15 minutes and/or have purge bots.

Zheg wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

TEMPLARS REJOICE we have set a new record !!!
we beat the previous record of 37 pages.

And instead of improvement we already smell the next Templar nerf incoming about rezzing. And again it is the PvP community of DD streamers who easily catch ZOS' ears while we Templars have no lobbyists, because no competitive PvP streamer would play a crippled Templar anymore to let his audience see how he sucks with it.

I play a rank 10 Templar in kags, and I'll be the first in line to vote for a change to rezzing. I'd much rather a passive that helps with resources or movement. I can get an entire group up in mere seconds, lag permitting. It's a dumb mechanic without a rez sickness or similar mechanic to keep it in line. This isn't a battle Templars should pick imo.

I can go through well over 100 gems in a single night; that's not something I'll miss.

I think most Templar would be open to trading super ress speed for another benefit whether it be survivability, mobility, or whatever. The problem is that the trade off won't happen. They will just nerf our ress by speed by making it not stack and not add anything to balance out the loss or do something silly like add 1m to the radius of a horrible ultimate. Knowing this, I prefer that they leave it as is.

Edit: Tons of errors fixed. Autocorrect hates me today.

Zheg

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The most recent posts have washed me of all guilt and shame for my normal wall of text nature.

Side note, I've read pretty much the entire thread and haven't seen this be a focus yet - fasallas guile. One of the questions I posed to wrobel that was answered (but not really...) was what happens when dmg numbers go up, hp and mitigation remain static? Answer = shift to dmg shields and away from reliance on heals, it's a huge hit to temps without any direct changes to our skills. Furthermore, no cooldown on fasallas guile means at least SOMEONE is running it in the enemy hordes you're fighting. Not only is the TG meta promoting shields we don't have, our heals will on average be 50% weaker in most of the fights that matter.

Even though I love Templar, I will be running that set on mine even though I know what it means for healing and the class as a whole. I hope people are at least AWARE of how interwoven into the meta that set will become in pvp if it remains as is. My build is niche and will survive it just fine, but a magicka Templar relying on heals or a stapler relying on vigor? GG.

I have 99 problems on my Temp but a debuff is not one of them. I'm not worried about people using the set on me in solo or all scale PvP, but it will makeorroup healing a bit more interesting. Groups will need to focus on burst/bombing and pulling out rather than spamming aoes at each other for 15 minutes and/or have purge bots.

Zheg wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

TEMPLARS REJOICE we have set a new record !!!
we beat the previous record of 37 pages.

And instead of improvement we already smell the next Templar nerf incoming about rezzing. And again it is the PvP community of DD streamers who easily catch ZOS' ears while we Templars have no lobbyists, because no competitive PvP streamer would play a crippled Templar anymore to let his audience see how he sucks with it.

I play a rank 10 Templar in kags, and I'll be the first in line to vote for a change to rezzing. I'd much rather a passive that helps with resources or movement. I can get an entire group up in mere seconds, lag permitting. It's a dumb mechanic without a rez sickness or similar mechanic to keep it in line. This isn't a battle Templars should pick imo.

I can go through well over 100 gems in a single night; that's not something I'll miss.

I think most Templar would be open to trading super ress speed for another benefit whether it be survivability, mobility, or whatever. The problem is that the trade off won't happen. They will just nerf our ress by speed by making it not stack and not add anything to balance out the loss or do something silly like add 1m to the radius of a horrible ultimate. Knowing this, I prefer that they leave it as is.

You naively think it won't affect you, but it will. Fasallas procs off each dot tick, all damage, and off shields. You will have to purify before each heal and hope you don't have caltrops or blazing spear or a nova or a dot ticking on someone with the set. Purifying for every heal will make you far easier to kill, particularly with purify not working on spell projectiles any more.

Group healing doesn't just include raids, small groups running only 1 maybe 2 will feel it more strongly.

Even if we don't agree, either way, fasallas is definitely going to be a thing next patch. Average healing numbers are going to go drastically down, and/or people will need more of those purge bots you're so enthralled with.

Cinbri

BalticBlues wrote: »

because no competitive PvP streamer would play a crippled Templar anymore to let his audience see how he sucks with it.

And that is true - noone will play pvp-dead class. Maximum of what you can count is just heavily-edited short videos that showing how some templar wiping obsolete noobs or some duels vs same nubs. That all what solo templar is capable of nowdays.

timidobserver

Zheg wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The most recent posts have washed me of all guilt and shame for my normal wall of text nature.

Side note, I've read pretty much the entire thread and haven't seen this be a focus yet - fasallas guile. One of the questions I posed to wrobel that was answered (but not really...) was what happens when dmg numbers go up, hp and mitigation remain static? Answer = shift to dmg shields and away from reliance on heals, it's a huge hit to temps without any direct changes to our skills. Furthermore, no cooldown on fasallas guile means at least SOMEONE is running it in the enemy hordes you're fighting. Not only is the TG meta promoting shields we don't have, our heals will on average be 50% weaker in most of the fights that matter.

Even though I love Templar, I will be running that set on mine even though I know what it means for healing and the class as a whole. I hope people are at least AWARE of how interwoven into the meta that set will become in pvp if it remains as is. My build is niche and will survive it just fine, but a magicka Templar relying on heals or a stapler relying on vigor? GG.

I have 99 problems on my Temp but a debuff is not one of them. I'm not worried about people using the set on me in solo or all scale PvP, but it will makeorroup healing a bit more interesting. Groups will need to focus on burst/bombing and pulling out rather than spamming aoes at each other for 15 minutes and/or have purge bots.

Zheg wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

TEMPLARS REJOICE we have set a new record !!!
we beat the previous record of 37 pages.

And instead of improvement we already smell the next Templar nerf incoming about rezzing. And again it is the PvP community of DD streamers who easily catch ZOS' ears while we Templars have no lobbyists, because no competitive PvP streamer would play a crippled Templar anymore to let his audience see how he sucks with it.

I play a rank 10 Templar in kags, and I'll be the first in line to vote for a change to rezzing. I'd much rather a passive that helps with resources or movement. I can get an entire group up in mere seconds, lag permitting. It's a dumb mechanic without a rez sickness or similar mechanic to keep it in line. This isn't a battle Templars should pick imo.

I can go through well over 100 gems in a single night; that's not something I'll miss.

I think most Templar would be open to trading super ress speed for another benefit whether it be survivability, mobility, or whatever. The problem is that the trade off won't happen. They will just nerf our ress by speed by making it not stack and not add anything to balance out the loss or do something silly like add 1m to the radius of a horrible ultimate. Knowing this, I prefer that they leave it as is.

You naively think it won't affect you, but it will. Fasallas procs off each dot tick, all damage, and off shields. You will have to purify before each heal and hope you don't have caltrops or blazing spear or a nova or a dot ticking on someone with the set. Purifying for every heal will make you far easier to kill, particularly with purify not working on spell projectiles any more.

Group healing doesn't just include raids, small groups running only 1 maybe 2 will feel it more strongly.

Even if we don't agree, either way, fasallas is definitely going to be a thing next patch. Average healing numbers are going to go drastically down, and/or people will need more of those purge bots you're so enthralled with.

I could be wrong, but I am much more worried by the alchemist set than Fassalas. It will be difficult to deal with a skilled player running a burst alchemist build. Worst case scenario, purify and stop attacking to negate Fassalas.

I am not entirely sure what makes you think I am enthralled with purge bots from my listing them as a counter to debuff spam.

Cinbri

Zheg wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

The most recent posts have washed me of all guilt and shame for my normal wall of text nature.

Side note, I've read pretty much the entire thread and haven't seen this be a focus yet - fasallas guile. One of the questions I posed to wrobel that was answered (but not really...) was what happens when dmg numbers go up, hp and mitigation remain static? Answer = shift to dmg shields and away from reliance on heals, it's a huge hit to temps without any direct changes to our skills. Furthermore, no cooldown on fasallas guile means at least SOMEONE is running it in the enemy hordes you're fighting. Not only is the TG meta promoting shields we don't have, our heals will on average be 50% weaker in most of the fights that matter.

Even though I love Templar, I will be running that set on mine even though I know what it means for healing and the class as a whole. I hope people are at least AWARE of how interwoven into the meta that set will become in pvp if it remains as is. My build is niche and will survive it just fine, but a magicka Templar relying on heals or a stapler relying on vigor? GG.

I have 99 problems on my Temp but a debuff is not one of them. I'm not worried about people using the set on me in solo or all scale PvP, but it will makeorroup healing a bit more interesting. Groups will need to focus on burst/bombing and pulling out rather than spamming aoes at each other for 15 minutes and/or have purge bots.

Zheg wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

SeptimusDova wrote: »

TEMPLARS REJOICE we have set a new record !!!
we beat the previous record of 37 pages.

And instead of improvement we already smell the next Templar nerf incoming about rezzing. And again it is the PvP community of DD streamers who easily catch ZOS' ears while we Templars have no lobbyists, because no competitive PvP streamer would play a crippled Templar anymore to let his audience see how he sucks with it.

I play a rank 10 Templar in kags, and I'll be the first in line to vote for a change to rezzing. I'd much rather a passive that helps with resources or movement. I can get an entire group up in mere seconds, lag permitting. It's a dumb mechanic without a rez sickness or similar mechanic to keep it in line. This isn't a battle Templars should pick imo.

I can go through well over 100 gems in a single night; that's not something I'll miss.

I think most Templar would be open to trading super ress speed for another benefit whether it be survivability, mobility, or whatever. The problem is that the trade off won't happen. They will just nerf our ress by speed by making it not stack and not add anything to balance out the loss or do something silly like add 1m to the radius of a horrible ultimate. Knowing this, I prefer that they leave it as is.

You naively think it won't affect you, but it will. Fasallas procs off each dot tick, all damage, and off shields. You will have to purify before each heal and hope you don't have caltrops or blazing spear or a nova or a dot ticking on someone with the set. Purifying for every heal will make you far easier to kill, particularly with purify not working on spell projectiles any more.

Group healing doesn't just include raids, small groups running only 1 maybe 2 will feel it more strongly.

Even if we don't agree, either way, fasallas is definitely going to be a thing next patch. Average healing numbers are going to go drastically down, and/or people will need more of those purge bots you're so enthralled with.

It was added by my suggestions, and when i suggested it, I thought of it from my tankplar point of view to fight zergs. It won't affect templar harder than any other class. If you ask me why, i won't answer coz it will be too long. But I can say that theorycrafted about such set even before IC release(even ran with Durok Bane and old version of Affliction for practice and to see why it not as good as people think) and i don't see any problem with this set. Also tried it with 5 julianos, 5 fasalla 2willpower on pts duels and set wasn'r a big problem, in fact it wasn't very good for duels either but if they remove jewel part i will be glad..

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

I have been watching the, "We Are ESO" podcast and others like it and have been noticing that Richard Lambert and the other game DEVS have been watching it as well. What was the one thing all these 1vX streamers had in common? Nerf Templars.

Except it was never nerf Templars but to make smart healing spam not effective against targets that are through walls/floors. Again, it is a line of sight issue which ZOS continues to ignore. If that same healer had to expose themself to heal a player then they could more easily be targeted instead of being who knows where within a 28m radius. You can blame the PvPers but really this is solely ZOS' fault for once again not understanding the real problem: smart healing.

Not true. In their first podcast they all agreed that templars were pretty much fine despite none of them playing one (only later did Sypher level one up and it is still stuck at VR1). They then proceedee to spend 2 shows talking about how screwed DKs are and how they need buffs. All of those guys helped in creating the image of a templar class that was doing just fine because of their ignorance or lack of knowledge. Only as of late have Fengrush turned around and kind of aknowledged he was wrong. Sypher still doesn't even bother spending his time doing the templar fight and Richard and Lucy just seem to be in a constant haze of "*** ZOS". Fengrush has definetely earned my respect for aknowledging the issues our class is in, but he also plays stamsorc so he can relate. Sypher knows we're *** and he will now aknowledge that somewhat when asked, but don't really care, and Lucy and Richard are just clueless on the subject and would rather spent all of their stream time on criticizing ZOS it seems.

Cinbri wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

Call' em up by name:

@Sypher, @FENGRUSH come on down! The price is right! Your chance to contribute to this discussion!

None of them tried to play magicka templar in open world pvp, i.e. opinion irrelevant. Why you need to call them? To transfrom feedback thread into trash?

Ill put in some feedback since I was tagged in here and to comment on We Are ESO.

Ill preface by saying I largely avoided this thread and some other templar threads because I received a lot of negative feedback and I didnt find it really productive to talk about issues I had from my perspective in Cyro. I did kind of end having those talks doing a 'rant' on my stream in a video I posted about templars mainly - some of you may have seen it. Me trying to kill people and not being able to kill them in a meta focused primarily around burst becomes impossible through BOL once numbers come into play. I find this to be a really poor design that focuses the game towards numbers in the fight and less about skill is the long and short of it - ESO didnt used to be like this and I hate to see it.

As far as what the issue was is another story. Some of you will hear me scream "welp, hes just getting flooded back to full HP with BOL no point in trying to kill this guy" on stream. This is technically true - but its a symptom of the problem and on stream I can technically go on about whatever is happening, Im not trying to have a constructive talk about whats going on in the middle of fights when Im streaming. The reality is that its a symptom of the problem. A game developer has to look at this and treat the root cause of the issue, not the symptom. As I detailed in my rant, I believe it primarily stems from resource management issues where its too easy to spam resources endlessly (such as BOL) - but this applies to everything (also mentioned in the rant video) example: endless rolling, vigor spamming for high effectiveness and low cost. These things become staples to gameplay everywhere in PvP and for me personally - it makes it a lot less strategical where you can and have to just 'run that constantly in the fight' rather than make a choice as to when to vigor and when to hammer out BOLs.

I find the champion system to have screwed up so many things, and while they made better changes to it this patch to try to balance it out - they still missed some things (like no physical ults scaling with anything but DK leap, yet adding Hardy). As a stam sorc I do even less damage with my ult that never scaled with CP, and less damage overall - but its besides the point. The champion system is screwed in so many ways and its skewed the ability to balance the game. Builds are able to factor in huge values of power and resource management - and the later is the real issue because you have to sacrifice very little to get to your end state functional build.

---

But thats just an opening to brace for the impact of hatred I will receive for even daring to post in such a thread! Magicka and stam templars suffer from different issues ultimately. A stamplar can manage rapids though its not really ideal to assist in mobility. A magicka templar never should be and pretty much set themselves up for suicide in a small/even scaled scenario where they become a target right after (especially considering the rapids nerf). This is going to hit you guys REAL hard in the mobility/survival department. Stamplars dont really specialize in anything, and they used to. When stam jabs worked well, they were the best steady DPS for stam and they had something that defined them then. All classes were able to kill with high burst windows then - but stamplar was exceptional at doing so. They broke those jabs from functioning as they did, and while a skilled stamplar could still manage things effectively, youd see top stamplars swinging in even WB when they really didnt need to before to achieve burst they shouldnt have to given what they specialized in. As a master of nothing in stam sorc, I can relate well with them.

Magicka templar is a whole different story. To people who feel I have no experience with templar, its not really true. I understand the class pretty well - I played it almost a full year through beta. I switched to sorc at release with no experience on it. I love support, its what I primarily do in most games I play. I played my magicka sorc as a utility support at release with my group, I wasnt a killer per se. Even as they nerfed the build I used I stuck to that - being one of the only sorcs using a sword/shield streaking through front lines laying down negates and focusing entirely on utility, I really enjoyed that role. That was eventually demolished as a build. I play as a DPS stam sorc because theres literally nothing else to do with it - and I hated what magicka sorcs were when I came back to the game. Ive played on magicka templar though when I came back as I test the builds that my magicka templar would use. Im very capable at making builds for it, and been asked for the magicka templar build in my group a lot on stream (even though its nothing special). The group I ran with through IC patch every day is myself (stam sorc), magicka templar, and stam templar. Im very much in tune with how this class operates and what its capable of, because even though there is 3 of us, we were geared and setup to compliment each other and be very strong as 3 people.. which we were.

Sorry for the long post - but Im trying to cut out a lot of the negativity I will get posting here. Magicka templars are actually rather capable when built offensively - even more so in this coming patch. What theyve been diminished to defensively (as noted in my rant) is heal spam bots, and they have even nerfed BOL now, which I specifically advocated against doing in that video. They needed bug fixes for starters - but I think what everyone wanted was to see more utility options added in their gameplay. I respect Wrobels concept of class diversity, but he has to also understand what a normal day of PVP looks like in Cyro - which he seems really out of touch with. Templars are not building houses in various locations for PVP and daring foes to enter at their own demise. I laughed so hard when I heard this - and you guys probably laughed in a rather sad way. Probably just like I did when they said 'oh yea, stam sorcs? We heard about those too - stand by until update 10'. Because they added so many things for us in the last 3 updates.. Shield has never been fixed for magicka templars, but shields in total have been neglected from ones that are too strong and ones that are too weak. They dont really know what to do here, and so they havent done anything. They want to do a 1-fix-all change to shields that will make templar shields better and magicka sorcs shields stronger - THIS IS HOW THEY DESIGN. And while this wont translate to a practical solution approach, its the kind that they believe will make sense and even be a more logical balanced solution. So you will likely see a change to both - even though all they have done this patch is put in a CP passive that would make it even worse for you.

Balance obviously cant be struck in isolation. When it comes to WB spam - templars are the first on my list and most any decent player. What is your counter? What is my counter to stop them from healing? People say use defile - and I have. My general experience is defile will be purged by any competent player before I ever get more than 1 swing off after it, and when numbers are out of my favor, it simply doesnt matter. This is a wider issue that stems outside of just magicka templar and WB needing to be changed (but templars also having some OTHER options and what they do other than to inform the enemy that they just entered their house). Ive advocated for buffs to other weapon lines while also adjusting WB - nobody lucks dumbed down gameplay - but alas we are told, standby until update 10.

I think we want the same thing a lot of times, not always.... I really want high skill play with choices needing to be made. I want resources to matter in a fight and stressing players into making bad ones having an effect 30seconds later in the fight. This doesnt exist today. Either you burst and blow stuff away or you try again. Its something driving people from the game at higher skilled ceiling gameplay. I dont even bother talking about a lot of it other than trolling/joking on forums mostly because its so damn futile, and I am someone with a stream and a podcast. To answer why it wasnt talked about on We are ESO - because we talked about some classes and I even suggested we need to talk about the big issues plaguing cyro before we talk about balance of classes. Class balance means nothing if the game is broken. This also included cutting my class out of the discussion - but the reality is I dont think this impacted the changes we see all the much. We are ESO is effective in mobilizing the community more than anything I believe. After our last podcast we had a dev join our teamspeak only to tell us something along the lines of 'hey this podcast was better - I could actually stomach your content this time.. I didnt even bother watching the last 4'. Thats real swell - he couldnt stand to hear our feedback because it strikes him too negatively. Sorry we cant sing praises during what I feel is the WORST patch in pvp from a perspective of balance and game play (performance/lag aside - which isnt good either). The best thing we could have is discussion and a line of communication. If wrobel is dreaming of a world where templars are some mystical badass in shiny armor fending off legions of challengers inside the glowing auras hes placed around him - what can we really do? I dont have any problem with him dreaming this - but the players can effectively help solution getting you there. Because that ring around the templar doesnt mean much, and its not getting better next patch.

I wish I could do more for my sake, for you guys, and all of the players. Despite what you hear or see from me Ive spent more quite a lot of time outside of the game trying to do something about it - and so have others like Sypher that you tagged. Without communication to those making changes, nothing great can get done. ZOS does hear your problems, they really do. They are reading it. The real problem is they isolate themselves during the solution phase and implement solutions based on what they feel or how they would like it to be and miss valuable input from players on how that would translate to real world PVP. This applies for all classes, and some will get the short end more than others.

Probably the longest post I ever wrote - but didnt take more than 15mins to write and 0 proofreading. Congrats if you make it through it all!

Actually I agree with pretty much everything you said @Fengrush, particularly with respect to the importance of PVP balance, the notion of tactical gameplay where decisions matter and you pressure people to make mistakes. You're viewing it like Chess at 1000 RPM's and that's cool. Most of us who play Templar here in this forum are upset because we want our class back. Too many defining abilities were gutted by sweeping changes on the back-end of the game (like a nerf to health multiplier, battle spirit nerf to shields, the effect of stam regen removal for blocking tanks and how this effects a Tankplar, removal of Blinding Flashes entirely, removal of the passive buff to all healing, the removal of our regen passive, the shift in the game to allow for cc immunity and how that effected the whole class synergy, directional Jabs nonsense etc). I personally think the Champion System is a great concept but I was also one of the early people to give feedback and say they shouldn't do it the way they were about to implement it. Diminishing Returns/Soft Caps are a great way for them to have kept balance and also it would have been a way to balance out the sweeping differences between race/class builds for all purposes. As an aside, my second max level character was a Sorcerer, and I have to say that my particular build on that class got flipflopped around drastically over the last couple years. The one nice thing about that character is that I have always been able to make him to bounce back more or less to his original intent (Altmer Sorcerer was a really good choice). I love playing Stamina Sorcerer as well and there are some nice little touches I wouldn't mind to the class, but it would grieve me to see them do it in the wrong way, which frankly they've been continually doing to Tankplar and Stamplar.

dodgehopper_ESO

Essiaga wrote: »

I think we should just make a thread for each skill or skill line (1 per thread) to review it and come up with long term short term ideas rather then long post involving the entire class. Then link all the thread in 1 thread and bump it constantly every day, maybe with a poll of some kind.

Then we need to request a direct discussion (maybe via twitch, maybe monthly or ever 2 months) with members of the development team so that we can communicate our concerns and have them respond to us. We'd select a few people (maybe 5 or so) from these forums to be our representatives (those with cooler heads) so that talks don't turn into $#!+ tossing.

We can start a poll in the general forums "Would you like to have true Class discussions with the Devs?" to get support from and attention to the other classes as well. Maybe those of you that stream can plug the request in your streams. Those of you that watch streams can plug it in other peoples streams. Post links on Redit ... Really call attention to it.

What do you guys think? This forum approach isn't getting it done.

@Nifty2g @Zinaroth @tinythinker @Cinbri @timidobserver @dodgehopper_ESO @Leon119 @Joy_Division @david.haypreub18_ESO @Soris @SeptimusDova @Ashamray @bikerangelo @Zheg @technohic ... and many i missed. Sorry.

Actually I think maybe the way to go here would take a lot of work. Someone would really need to be doing Eric's job more or less. You would need to factor in all of the classes and balance changes, and it could very well be very futile since as I've mentioned elsewhere there are often a lot of viable ways to solve a problem. I do think one cohesive forum post (like those really long @Gidorick suggestion box type ones he does) might be a great way to go. Like I said it would take a big job. I've offered suggestions on the other classes before. I was for instance not happy with the ruination of Chain Pull a long time ago, being such a class defining skill. It makes me happy to see them breathe some life into the skill again. I'm not a one-character type of guy. While I care a lot for my Templar, I've clocked in a lot of hours on all 4 classes, and I think many of us have. Most of us who PvP also care about a global sense of balance, and not just about making their 'own class' super. There are two good reasons for this. First, most people like to change things up. Second, most of us care about playing a game in pvp that involves actual player skill and not an Epic I Win Button. I think its an interesting approach though @Essiaga, and I'm happy to offer my thoughts here and there to the benefit of such a thing.

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Nice, the poster boy for Templar nerfs is here.

Thanks for the positive feedback - thats pretty much what I was hoping for.

You are the most popular and vocal proponent of Templar nerfs, so yeah you expected correctly.

Also, it is positive. Your post will likely get someone other than the moderators to look at this thread. We might even get a dev post now.

Im not really an advocate to nerf this class and make it weaker - I advocate for positive changes which is hard to do in its current environment. If my long winded post didnt really hammer that point home I dont know if I will really be able to another way. You are able to have your opinion so Im not going to fight you over it in the templar thread - but I will say I am not for 'nerfing the templar class' at all. A lot of what I do and say on stream can certainly be taken out of context though and used in that manner - but thats just how it goes. The only class I advocated for some level of nerf in current live patch was stam nightblades in their ability to be good at pretty much everything (even though it does require more skill to do so). Other things needing reworks youll hear are shields for mag sorcs and healing overall, but these are 2 things that are dangerous to consider in isolation. Overnerf mag sorc shields and suddenly the class is useless. Consider healing:damage ratio meta changes and people end up saying nerf templar.

Sorry - Im not a developer on the team, nor do I pull much weight in proposing better solutions. Youd likely be happier going into this patch if I had more influence though.

@Fengrush I tagged you for a discussion I started here because I thought you might relate with me on the topic. I believe we both feel there is something wrong with the way certain things are handled in pvp. One of my issues with playing Sorcerer is the way in which playing the Sorcerer Tank has changed, and I do understand your feeling of limitation as a Stamina Sorcerer. A lot of my problems with Templar Tanking fall upon Sorcerer Tanking as well. I may not have suggestions that suit your taste on the matter (mitigation/stamina dps) but I would like to see your thoughts on the matter.

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/247182/a-stamina-or-tank-sorcerer-improvement-suggestion#latest

dodgehopper_ESO

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Make ALL damage shields scale off 1 of either health, or magica or heath+magica divided by 2.

you didnt need to make a one size fits all shield nerf in pvp. you needed to balance the actual equality between shields. sorcs are so powerful because you gave them a shield that scales off of max magica which happens to INCREASE DAMAGE at the same time as increasing defence. THIS IS WHERE THE IMBALANCE IS.
IF you are ok with using the damage modifier to scale shields then fine MAKE ALL SHIELDS MAGICA SCALED. IF you think, OOOH WAIT that seems unreasonable to have your min max dps modifier generating the strongest possible shield then, Make ALL SHIELDS HEALTH SCALED. another option is half of your added health+magica.

loosing blazing shield and blinding flashes made your vision of templars standing ground while actually fighting back a lesson in history. getting a sun shield that scaled off of magica would help our defences and help make up for 0 mobility.
and if you went the health scaling route then it would help by forcing sorcs to get some health instead of 100% in magica making them have to sacrifice something like the rest of us

The reason I buck this trend is that Health is already a pretty worthless stat. It is my sincere hope that they find ways to make Health (and the tank role) more meanginful, and not less so. The 100% stamina regeneration shut down for 4 seconds when blocking is unbearably bad design. I'm so glad that I didn't make my Bosmer DK Tank build, and I'm sure there are some Bosmer DK's out there who are pissed because of it. Stamina-based tanks really took it on the chin with this change in rules. Not only did the Stamina based tank lose his capacity to do any kind of damage, but his magic based resources were of low quality. The WARRIOR build really took a major hit with this change, and it is one among many. I don't want mitigation to be based upon our damage stats. Health needs to be the mitigation stat so that we actually have to make interesting choices as a player.

maxjapank

Essiaga wrote: »

What do you guys think? This forum approach isn't getting it done.

@Nifty2g @Zinaroth @tinythinker @Cinbri @timidobserver @dodgehopper_ESO @Leon119 @Joy_Division @david.haypreub18_ESO @Soris @SeptimusDova @Ashamray @bikerangelo @Zheg @technohic ... and many i missed. Sorry.

This particular thread lost focus long ago. So much whining that it's a pain to even read through it.

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone!

This post is to inform you that we've removed many posts for a variety of reasons, all being against the Forum Rules. Any posts continuing to violate the Forum rules will lead to an action being placed on the posters account. We appreciate all of the feedback given on the subject, and all feedback will be reviewed as well. Though we have to ask that you stay civil and constructive to discussion, and stay respectful to your fellow forum members, as well as the Zenimax Employees.

Many thanks!

Drewzi

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello everyone!

This post is to inform you that we've removed many posts for a variety of reasons, all being against the Forum Rules. Any posts continuing to violate the Forum rules will lead to an action being placed on the posters account. We appreciate all of the feedback given on the subject, and all feedback will be reviewed as well. Though we have to ask that you stay civil and constructive to discussion, and stay respectful to your fellow forum members, as well as the Zenimax Employees.

Many thanks!

38 pages and this is the response we get. Lol

Soris

Well it's good you at least read the thread but what exactly violated the rules and removed?

AriBoh

Soris wrote: »

Yep this thread is now officially beat the record of this one http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p1

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO my record thread

AriBoh

AriBoh wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Yep this thread is now officially beat the record of this one http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p1

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO my record thread

And still nothing changed.

Whoops double post.

Kensei_ESO

Spacemonkey wrote: »

I figured I'd post this here also, concerning 'The House':

Actually, been playing templar since beta (Haven't been able to put many hours since 1.6 - work reasons, but still consistently a few every week) - It's my only vet character

And I very much want Wrobel's 'vision' for the templars. Here's a quick flash from the past::

It is in fact smack on the build I had prior 1.6, mixing up def buffs + rune and fighters guild circle of protection, I'd over double my res and armor past the SOFTCAPS. (Yes 200% of softcaps, dyou realize how much that was???). I was the most unkillable healer in the game. I'd stay in my @)$(* house , heal and def buff teamates, and overall protect the crap out of them. Oh I was no tank. (no aggro), but it is so much easier resource-wise (thus not mattering if I was stam or magicka for healing) to keep everyone healed up when you don't have to worry about yourself. To add, I was stam/hp hybrid (still am). This worked awesomely. Add another similar templar build to the team, we could def buff so high with those AoEs; we were nigh unkillable in Dungeons. (When a boss smacks you repeatdly, the HEALER, and you're just shrugging it off, no stress, and res-ing fallen teamates etc...) And if all hell broke loose youd launch the heal ultimate which would bring your def and res near 300% past softcap (ok maybe 250%) and give crazy regens to all 3 bars even though you were rooted. Killing you in that ulti was litterally unfeasible. This was back when I'd slot WB because of the awesome CC, not because it was the only viable dmg option other than Jabs. This was back when only 4 out of my 12 slotted skills weren't from the Templar skills.

In PVE this was fun, excellent, fine. Because you need others to kill the stuff, dmg being rather sub par.
In PVP apparently this was exceedingly frustrating for DPSs or something, because 1.6 changed ALL of that. (as in, what do you mean 3 DPS can't burst you down? Doesn't matter if those 3 DPS are mostly safe because you dont have the mobility or dmage to kill them - obviously you are OP and need to be nerfed. Funny how DPS seems to be the only role that matters in PvP).

See I really LIKE 'The House'. My house was the ***!! I didn't care what was going on, I'd be standing in my [insert profanity] house and those long range DPS builds were exercising futility trying to kill me in it - even those up close weren't having an easy time. DKs were my worse nightmare, (with their chains, pulling me out of my precious house). People new better than to waste all those resources killing templars in their houses so they got them to leave em, pulling them out, throwing them out, anything. Priority was to get the temp out of his multi AoE stacking madness house. And why even bother on the templar? Because if you didnt kill them, they'd be healing, buffing, and keeping alive all the other people that WERE a threat. Even if they did kill me, I didn't mind, I felt like I put up a fight and made them waste time. Nowadays I just feel like I'm giving free AP to everyone....

So yes @Wrobel, I very much get your vision, and very much do want it.
But every patch and step since 1.6 has been driving the meta steadily away from the very possibility of having a functional AoE house - dmg mitigation is a joke (seriously), burst dmg is way too great and healing is crippled in PvP (the fact we still manage burst healing is a testament to how dedicated some healers are)

I would love for you to have the option to build that way. However, I don't want to play that kind of Templar. I want to play the old sunfire freight train, blazing and charging around, ramming my sunspear into every enemy orifice, pressuring and squeezing them on the front lines. The Aedric Spear line IS that kind of Templar. I want both build options to be available AND effective. I don't want to be forced into the playstyle you described because that shouldn't be the only way to Templar. I want a little mobility and self-buffing damage mitigation.

dereck_phantom

I just really want more stamina morphs honestly lol

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

Game doesn't need stamina morphs. This game needs stances. Period!