Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Soris

Cinbri wrote: »

First of all regarding Wrobel answer:
1. Quote about Rune Focus - i would be positive about it, but after everything we got i have feeling that this quote mean: "we will nerf Channeled Focus to proc mana return only inside rune and 8 sec after leaving rune". So i afraid it won't be buff of Restoring Focus, but nerf of Channeled Focus.
2. Quote about Empowering Sweep - i glad to hear that my idea of increasing duration of damage reduction is achieved Wrobel ears, however after more tests of pts with new sets i changed my mind - it don't need longer duration, but default 15% mitigation buff must be changed to Major Protection buff. Right now many non-vampire templars forced to use this ultimate for tanking and this is pure tanking ultimate, so increasing damage no needed for it, such templars don't have escape option so in many cases they using this ultimate to run away even when no enemies near. In the end it result in having only 15% mitigation buff; with some changes on pts, it will be easier to use ultimates, so in many cases we still will have just 15% mitigation that in pvp means nothing. So, again - change default 15% mitigation to 30% Major Protection, without increasing duration.
Crescent Sweep - this ult cost only 26 more than Dawnbreaker but deal much less damage, so either initail hit should be buffed hard, or ult in addition should get some small changes like increase radius on 1m or short CC.
3. BoL nerf - most frustration from PvP templars regarding this nerf coming not coz nerf by itself but from fact that most effective healing build lost its effective but in return didn't get anything else to fill other roles. And since in qoute we heared nothing about AoE CC/roots/damage mitigation skills/increasing damage, i afraid we still won't get anything noticeble except small buffs. And thats is very bad since 100% healing buff of Inhale and Burnong Embers transformed outnumbered DK into Dk 1.0; and templars must get something as noticeble as this. And i afraid our pain point right now - is playing this class itself.

I agree on that part empowering sweep would be better if it grants major protection. Currently its 15% base reduction +4% more for each target, yields 40% dmg reduction if it hits 6 targets.(cap) But considering its melee range and the fact that if you have 6 target focusing on you in pvp, you'll be pretty much dead in a second anyway. So most of the time you dont get any benefit from it in pvp.

So making it a flat 30% major protection on a longer duration would benefit us more. Obv extra reduction form hits wouldn't needed anymore.

Islyn

Breath of Life - I see a lot of Templars complaining about the change that was made with this ability. It heals 1 less player than it did before. From a PvP standpoint, this change was necessary. Breath of life was far too powerful, especially since heals go through LoS. The amount that it heals was unchanged.

Disagree, because even in a 12 man group you're only healing 1/4 the raid.

LOS - Definitely. If LOS issue was fixed it would not need a nerf.

However because ZOS takes Easiest Way no matter the consequence, whelp. RIP BoL and Thanks for the FU to PVE.

Of Course we can still heal people we know to be decent fine without it, but PUGs who I used to like to help clear content but who ALWAYS stand in stupid, face tank, do other weird stuff because they're new, are dangerous and need BOL

This has put an end to my ever again going with randoms 'just to help them get through it.'

Those days are done.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Please revert the nerf change to Puncturing Sweep and have Balanced Warrior passive increase spell damage.

Nick1620

Please revert stun after the 4th hit to the biting jabs, reducing speed is not needed

Drewzi

S

Nick1620 wrote: »

Please revert stun after the 4th hit to the biting jabs, reducing speed is not needed

And give cc immunity to everything we are attacking again, heck no.

Nick1620

Drewzi wrote: »

S

Nick1620 wrote: »

Please revert stun after the 4th hit to the biting jabs, reducing speed is not needed

And give cc immunity to everything we are attacking again, heck no.

with what do you want to attack again? with wrecking blow?

Dimmit

Nick1620 wrote: »

Drewzi wrote: »

S

Nick1620 wrote: »

Please revert stun after the 4th hit to the biting jabs, reducing speed is not needed

And give cc immunity to everything we are attacking again, heck no.

with what do you want to attack again? with wrecking blow?

With bash to break them from channeling for example. But we cant bash, because they are cc immune thanks to our jabs!

reducing speed is better option. I would still prefer some flat damage increase with no cc here...or adding some executioner feature, like it had 70% crit for low health before, but it is still better.

But other changes, and especially, lack of necessary fixes and feedback to templar problems is irritating.

Templars are and even more continue to be the weakest class in the game. Especially PVP-wise. No damage, no control, no mobility, only healing which yet gets nerfed. Logic.

tinythinker

PhantomSpaceCop wrote: »

That noted, the Templar class has the potential to be one of the most powerful classes in the game, and for whatever reason, the GMs are definitely holding out. Maybe there's some kind of stigma on the class based in ancient MMO dev lore that I have no idea about because this is only the second MMO I've ever gotten involved in? Who Knows™.

Not saying this is necessarily relevant to explaining the recent changes, but, in beta you still had the old skill Blinding Light that gave a 50% miss chance to enemies within 5 meters. Eclipse blocked all single-target magicka spells and could be spammed onto multiple targets. The Restoring Spirit passive from the Dawn's Wrath skill line returned 4% of the character's magicka for each ability cast (they used to all be magicka-based) but was changed to 4% reduction in ability and ultimate cost for launch. You can read about the Restoring Spirit change in this old Tamriel Foundry post or this discussion on Reddit.

Bosses were made immune to Eclipse and Blinding Light because they were considered OP, then Blinding Light was replaced by Radiant Destruction, and Eclipse was limited to one-target active at a time with CC break option to give CC immunity. Healing Ritual keeps getting tweaked but never finds a home, Puncturing Sweeps was changed to give a heal for damage done when Biting Jabs was changed to a stamina morph, Blazing Shield was nerfed, Radiant Destruction was added and then nerfed, and there you go. The major changes (or most of them). That's the backdrop for the current brouhaha.

So yeah, in Beta some people considered Templars OP in some aspects of PvE because they could use Rune Focus, Blinding Light, and Blazing Shield to tank up in heavy armor and then burn everything nearby with Jabs while getting good resource management with Restoring Spirit. Just top it off with Breath of Life every so often (fun fact, Rushed Ceremony and its morphs were nerfed once before in Beta) which worked well because of the magicka return.

Anyway, you can see by the way the class used to work how the logic of the class skills fit together. And why some people want Templars to still get extra magicka return, even if it's modified to only work for heavy armor. And how changes to the game, especially post 1.6, have not really been integrated very well so far into some Templar active and passive skills.

Husan

Guys come on.. You are over reacting on the breath of life nerfs. It's still quite possible to heal people with the new breath of life, even if they are not that good. I use honor the dead currently on live and it's quite enough to carry any PUGs I have the misfortune to pick up in Deshaan. I'm sorry to say this, but if you cannot heal a group effectively without breath of life, it is a L2P issue. How do you think the non-templar healers manage to heal baddies?

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Husan wrote: »

Guys come on.. You are over reacting on the breath of life nerfs. It's still quite possible to heal people with the new breath of life, even if they are not that good. I use honor the dead currently on live and it's quite enough to carry any PUGs I have the misfortune to pick up in Deshaan. I'm sorry to say this, but if you cannot heal a group effectively without breath of life, it is a L2P issue. How do you think the non-templar healers manage to heal baddies?

I understand what you are saying but at the same time you have to admit it is sort of funny. Since you usually get one of two responses to the nerf.

A. Now Templars wont be the best healers and everyone will have a shot!
Or Your choice
B. You will be fine how do you think other classes did it?

Well given the option A. I keep seeing reposted over and over, Id say not very well is how other classes did it.

jrgray93

I feel like the points of why people don't use Vampire's Bane and Healing Ritual are being missed.

Heals in this game can't have cast times, especially if we are slowed while casting. It's useless. I have any number of spells that can do a better job than Healing Ritual.

Vampire's Bane simply makes the DoT last longer. If I'm doing my job, anything outside of a dungeon or trial shouldn't live long enough to tick the extended time from this spell. In dungeons, only bosses would be ideal targets for this. I suppose it frees up a few seconds to cast other spells, but I'd rather have the multi-target attack and just work it into the rotation a bit more often. The up-front damage makes up for the lost DoT, anyway.

The nerf to Breath of Life seems entirely pointless.

In a game that often comes down to mobility, Rune Focus and its morphs shouldn't plant themselves on the ground.

I still see no reason to use Radiant Aura.

Unstable Core is still absolutely useless.

The other changes, I either like or can't really comment on.

Animal_Mother

Husan wrote: »

Guys come on.. You are over reacting on the breath of life nerfs. It's still quite possible to heal people with the new breath of life, even if they are not that good. I use honor the dead currently on live and it's quite enough to carry any PUGs I have the misfortune to pick up in Deshaan. I'm sorry to say this, but if you cannot heal a group effectively without breath of life, it is a L2P issue. How do you think the non-templar healers manage to heal baddies?

Try using HtD in open world to emergency heal yourself or a member of your party only to have third person steal the heal. In the past, this was the reason I would use BoL. Half a heal is better than no heal and I have three chances of getting the heal to the person I want to have it.

The smart heal system makes for fluid gameplay and makes our job easier, but there are times I really did miss the old-fashioned directed heals of typical mmos. And Rushed Ceremony's radius doesn't help either.

Running dungeons and trials are one thing. PVP is another. Open world is where classic BoL is an asset and ensures that at least some portion of my most powerful and most expensive heal will be going to a party members instead of someone AFK at an anchor or losing a fight to a mudcrab.

I'm all for tweaking BoL. Add LOS. Shorten the range. Lessen the heal. Increase the cost if spammed. Or maybe fix the smart heal system so it only heals party members.

GBAOE heals could then be used for others.

Reorx_Holybeard

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Breath of Life: We understand that many of you are frustrated with this change, but we found the ability was a little too powerful as a single ability (both as a single target and AoE healing ability). We’ve been watching a lot of livestreams, and Templars appear to still be very useful using this ability in conjunction with others. This includes using Focused Healing which now grants you the Major Mending buff, or Healing Ritual which has a decreased cast time. We don’t currently have any plans to change Breath of Life beyond what’s already been done.

I was thinking about this last night and I don't really understand how reducing the number of targets from 3 to 2 does in the supposed problem of being too powerful in PVP. It makes it a little less powerful in a large group-vs-group situation as there is one less target but the main heal and the secondary target are still there. I can still sit somewhere safe and cast it all day long and have the main heal keep someone alive which seemed to be the problem certain streamers had with it in the first place.

It gets worse when you consider the addition of Major Mending which means I can safely sit in my Purifying Light somewhere safe and all my BoLs are now 25% greater than they were before. Doesn't this make BoL more powerful in keeping my allies alive?

Personally I'd much rather go with a LoS fix for BoL which would make the biggest difference in PVP and little to no difference in PVE. Make Templars have to be visible when healing allies which will let enemies attack them to stop the healing....attack the healer first is PVP/PVE 101 isn't it?

danno8

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Breath of Life: We understand that many of you are frustrated with this change, but we found the ability was a little too powerful as a single ability (both as a single target and AoE healing ability). We’ve been watching a lot of livestreams, and Templars appear to still be very useful using this ability in conjunction with others. This includes using Focused Healing which now grants you the Major Mending buff, or Healing Ritual which has a decreased cast time. We don’t currently have any plans to change Breath of Life beyond what’s already been done.

I was thinking about this last night and I don't really understand how reducing the number of targets from 3 to 2 does in the supposed problem of being too powerful in PVP. It makes it a little less powerful in a large group-vs-group situation as there is one less target but the main heal and the secondary target are still there. I can still sit somewhere safe and cast it all day long and have the main heal keep someone alive which seemed to be the problem certain streamers had with it in the first place.

It gets worse when you consider the addition of Major Mending which means I can safely sit in my Purifying Light somewhere safe and all my BoLs are now 25% greater than they were before. Doesn't this make BoL more powerful in keeping my allies alive?

Personally I'd much rather go with a LoS fix for BoL which would make the biggest difference in PVP and little to no difference in PVE. Make Templars have to be visible when healing allies which will let enemies attack them to stop the healing....attack the healer first is PVP/PVE 101 isn't it?

I think ZoS is trying to reduce server lag and don't want to introduce any new calculations like LoS for heals. They probably consider BoL nerf to be a positive in that respect as one less heal is one less calculation.

BalticBlues

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Personally I'd much rather go with a LoS fix for BoL which would make the biggest difference in PVP and little to no difference in PVE.

Do you even play a Templar posting such things? In probably all LOS situations, Blessing of Restauration (BoR) is not only cheaper but also more effective than BOL, because it also gives Minor Resolves and Minor Ward to healed members, and with some smart positioning (instead of standing dumb & still in a rune focus) you can heal ALL group members, not only 2 as with the crippled BOL. BoL is so expensive that it only makes sense in emergency situations and without a LOS. If LOS would be a requirement for BoL, it would probably be dead, because BoR would nearly always be better.

I have the feeling that in these BOL nerf discussions many people who are posting have no idea how healing and tactical gameplay work in this game, especially certain DD streamers who refuse to have a smart game that requires tactical thinking instead of WB spamming.

A true PvP "solution" for BOL could be if each heal would cause visible waves going from the caster to the healed, as in BoR. This way probably even the clueless WB spammers in their streams would notice where the heals are coming from so that they could more easily kill the smart hiding (because usually chanceless in 1v1 fights) Templar healers. Some streamer cats probably need a navigation system to find the mice.

kaalmoth

They should at least reduce the cost for it, in the same spirit they nerfed healing from PS cause of major mending, or reduced healing done on ritual while reducing casting time.

tinythinker

Early in the thread I gave a summary reaction to changes, good and otherwise. The spoiler below has more considered recommendations after some testing and reflection. I don't claim they are better or more insightful than the 22 1/2 pages of comments left by other players so far, but if you're bored or curious take a look.

BoL changes are here to stay. I can live with it. But I'd like to see other things focused on. Given the direction of Templar changes as well as game changes, here are my humble recommendations. Not all of them, just the ones I would prioritize.

Eclipse

I've written about this ability a couple of times before, had a few different ideas. They merge to this: give Eclipse and Total Dark a penalty (like 3x normal damage that would otherwise occur at the end of the ability) for breaking free. Still only one target allowed at a time and reflecting projectiles as per 2.3.1 mechanics. This forces a human opponent to decide between using non-projectile abilities and taking the extra damage. Bosses who are immune automatically "break free" and take damage, and the player has to wait the same period as a CC immunity timer to recast on a boss.

Unstable Core gets the bubble back, works like the 2.31 mechanics, but stuns the primary target upon exploding. The bubble keeps a human opponent from knowing which morph was used. The stun makes up for the lackluster damage and wait time. I really tried using it on the PTS but I had to kind of wait and slow down my fights for it to register before trash mobs were killed. Otherwise they died before it went off. Very lackluster. The stun also has some use in PvP, as that CC, rather than extra damage, is the break free penalty for players. Core also need to be added to the no fly list for Enduring Rays.

Puncturing Strikes

Keep it like it is for 2.3.1, but add an interrupt to the first hit of the base ability and both morphs.


Spear Wall

Add (a chance to) inflict Minor Maim, a 15% damage reduction, to targets whose melee attacks are successfully blocked. If it is a chance-based proc the odds should be no lower than 25% and preferably would be 50%. If Templars are to continue to have limited mobility and fight in rune circles and healing circles, there needs to be more mitigation. If you hit a spear wall, it should sting.

Rune Focus

I like this ability. I really do. I've been practicing fighting inside of it against things like the crossed-sword generals in the IC sewers. And it is *really* hard to stay inside of it: knockdowns that knock you back, AoE, AoE, AoE, targets zipping around, AoE, frontal conal attacks, AoE... the buffs the rune gives are awesome *if* you can stay inside of it. And even if you do, immoveable pots, Shuffle, and blocking only go so far for a magicka build. So how about expanding its radius a meter and adding in an extra two seconds of CC immunity if you manage to stay in the little circle?

Healing Ritual

I've had so many different ideas for this over the past couple of years, just all over the place. Here are my favorites for your consideration.

"The Light"

In this new version of Healing Ritual, while you walk about praying and healing you are surrounded in a bright swirling glow as your healing energy pours out to nearby allies. You blind your foes, getting Major Evasion for two seconds (or Major Protection for two seconds or inflicting all nearby enemies with Major Maim for four seconds) starting when you press the button to cast the spell. The heal also begins instantly while you are doing a casting animation and still self-snared. The healing is reduced by 20% or so to compensate for the buff. For Lingering Ritual a smallish HoT applies to allies within the ability radius for 8 seconds after the cast time ends (centered on the caster who is no longer self-snared). Ritual of Rebirth restores one quarter of missing stamina and magicka to two nearby allies other than the caster over the course of three seconds.

"The Buff"

In another alternative I've also been considering, you still get the swirling light and self-snare cast time as per "The Light", but in this case the caster's allies gains Major Protection for 6 seconds or until the caster causes damage. Like "The Light", healing starts when casting begins, as does the buff. Basically the animation is for show not a delay in the heal. As with "The Light" the healing done and/or cost would be adjusted appropriately for balance. The morphs could stay the same as they have been since launch or could be tweaked. For example, Lingering Ritual could extend the buffs to 8 seconds, while Ritual of Rebirth could add Major Heroism or something similar alongside Major Protection.

"The Toggle"

Most of my ideas for Healing Ritual have been based on keeping the cast time and the self-snare. This one doesn't. Rather than a specific number of health points that scale with spell damage, max magicka, and healing buffs, have it restore a percentage of their missing health over time as a toggle. Toggling the ability on would drain health from the caster while restoring it to allies. The exact percentage of health restored and the ratio of health drained to health restored would need to be based on internal testing to make sure it wasn't too strong or too weak. But given the risk and self-sacrifice, it would be a really big heal. There is still a risk, but not from the self-snare. Afterward the caster would have a reduction in healing received for a brief time to keep this ability from being abused.

Ritual of Rebirth would reduced the reduction in healing and buff health recovery. The Lingering Ritual Morph would give a delayed heal like it always has, but would be for a percentage of the healing done during the toggle.

At first glance, having a healer risk themselves by trading health for healing may sound like a death sentence for the healer, but again it would be balanced against doing a significant amount of healing to a fixed percentage of missing health. It would have a fast drain and tick for larger percentages of missing health over time. You could still run, sprint, and roll-dodge while saving a 12 player raid on the verge of wiping. And in any case, if you die you can always be rezzed. Hence the need to balance risk and reward to not make it a stealth easy mode mechanic where you just heal everyone to 100% while dying and get a rez after. Since the percentage of health restored goes up over time and since you can't cast anything else (other skills are locked out while channeling), just relying on this all of the time would be waste. It would be a great "Oh crap
button", though.

The cousin to this concept is to drain magicka super-fast instead of caster health, but it's more boring and is like a dull group version of Dark Deal. But it might be workable with some tweaking.

WolfWarrior84

Hymzir wrote: »

Before this thread popped up I spent considerable time writing up my thoughts on the Templar changes for a post on another thread. But since this is the "official feedback" thread I am just gonna repost the whole thing here since this issues is really important to me, and I am teetering on abandoning the whole game if this goes south. So if I do not make my stand here and now, and these changes go through... Well Let's just hope they wont.

My thoughts on the Templar changes:

Utterly predictable failure from ZOS - instead of fixing the Templar, they made, as people predicted, few token concessions, meaningless changes and nerfed BoL to appease the ganking QQ crowd.

Here's what I gotta say about these changes

Aedric Spear:
- Blazing Spear (Spear Shards morph): This morph now displays a hostile red telegraph if it is cast from enemy Templars.

Oh brilliant, it's already slow as hell and people have been dodging it all the time, supposing that you actually manage to predict where they will run so as to even have a chanve of hitting someone with it. Obviously it needed (along with the slew of past nerfs on damage) to be made more obvious so that poor sneaking NB's can avoid it more easily.

Focused Charge: This ability and its morphs are now more responsive, and will no longer cause you to become stuck in the charge animation.

Yeah, I kinda want to see that in practice before believing this one. Since after all it is exactly the same thing ZOS has said several times before. And note that the way it's worded "more responsive" as compared to what? How it was before, but still less so than other gap closers?

Piercing Javelin: Increased the range of this ability and its morphs to 28 meters from 20 meters.

Well at least it might reach an enemy every now and then. Was funny since wrecking blow, a melee hit seemed to have 15 meter range, that a ranged one would have 20 meter. 28 meters is much better, but it's still a pointless skill since it costs a ton and is fairly weak

Puncturing Strikes: This ability and its morphs no longer knockback and apply crowd control immunity to the nearest enemy on the final hit; instead, they now snare that enemy by 70% for two seconds.

I'd be happy about this if this was not something we have been telling ZOS for over a year now! And after all this time of them claiming it was fine, they finally realized just how stupid it was. Still... no changes about it's aiming, which sucks, the fact that it's a channel which sucks, and the fact that Both Piercing Spears and Burning Light passives are useless against shields... Yeah... not gonna be celebrating about this one either.

Radial Sweep: Increased the radius of this ability and its morphs to 6 meters from 5 meters.

WOW! What an utterly meaningless change. This has gotta be the most pointless change in all of the Patch notes. (Or so I thought, not yet having read the other Templar changes...)It makes a completely useless Ultimate to be still completely useless ability! WOW! The ineptitude just keeps growing.

Radiant Ward (Sun Shield morph): Increased the shield strength bonus from this morph’s shield to 6% per enemy hit from 5%.

And it keeps getting better! WOW - a whole 1 percent more! For the morph most people won't use anyway. No change in it's duration, no change in it's strength, great job of fixing nothing!

And no changes on any of the passives... yeah. A string of expletives on that.

At the very least you should've given Balanced warrior a Spell damage buff - hell the Sorc got Weapon damage buff to go with their spell damage passive many moons ago. At the very least you should've done the same to Templar. Ditch the spell resistance bonus if you have to, it is weak and meaningless anyway. The meta of this game is focused around damage and Spell and weapon Damage are kings in all all considerations. And Templars need a Spell damage buff passive to be on any kind of equal footing with Sorcs as a caster class.

Okay on to Dawns Wrath...
Backlash: Increased the maximum damage limit for this ability and its morphs by 25%, but decreased their damage stored amount by 66%. In addition, this ability and its morphs can no longer be reflected.

I suppose this has some meaning in PVE, but is meaningless thing in PVP. But not all skills need to be useful in PVP, as long as some are and vice versa. And also LOL wut? Increased it's damage by 25% but decreased it's damage by66%? What?

Eclipse: bunch of stuff

Still mostly useless in PVP and vastly less useful than Wings. Besides anyone who is even remotely familiar with it just purges or breaks it, so it's not really useful as such. Except against some PVE targets...

Even so, I would be happy to leave these things for their niche uses, even though they are some of the most over engineered skills in the game only situationally useful, if the rest of dawns wrath was rock solid. Unfortunately it's not. There is only one skill of any meaningful value in the whole tree and it's jeezusbeam, and it too has been nerfed almost to the ground. All the other dawns wrath skills, including the Ultimate, are tricksy, slow, weak and way too costly to actually use.
Enduring Rays:

This passive ability now only increases the duration of the Sun Fire, Eclipse, and Nova abilities.
Increased this passive ability’s bonus to 15/30% more duration at Ranks I/II from 10/20%.

Cool! Another Templar passive that I have no reason what so ever to invest skill points in. There is close to zero point in using any of those skills, so why then use the passive either? You could have put some sort of resource management boost here, like having a Dawns wrath ability slotted gives you resource management buff. The kinda passive all the other classes seem to have...

Nova:

Reduced the effects and visual light intensity for this ability and its morphs.
Increased the damage from the Supernova and Gravity Crush synergies by 16%.
Increased the activation range for the Supernova and Gravity Crush synergies to 3.5 meters from 2.5 meters.

The reduced glare is welcome - too bad it's the only meaningful hanges. Increasing synergy damage? Really? The number one point of most Templars is that how much they suck as anything else but pocket healers, and what you decide to do in your game where every class was supposed to be able to fill every role? You increase Templars stamp of indentured servitude by boosting their group support skills.

Even, with the boost, it's still far too costly for what it brings to the table, and in PVP, only situationally useful in covering breaches. Meteor still serves the same purpose for less cost and with better passives to boot.

Radiant Destruction: Fixed an issue where the execute bonus damage from this ability would not apply if multiple Templars were channeling these abilities on the same target.

The only meaningful change for the whole tree, and it's not even a buff or a tweak but a fix. And it's something that should've been patched up a long time ago. But since Templars aren't Sorcs - who cares about it when our skills are bugged.

Solar Flare: Increased the damage for this ability and the Dark Flare morph by 12%. The damage of the Solar Barrage morph remains unchanged.

So.. let me get this right... after months of us arguing this one needed a buff, and having heard for months how it's damage was in line with other skills and didn't need any change. You suddenly decide it needs a damage buff? Well, thanks for that I suppose. Not that it makes a licking difference, since there is still no reason to slot it. It is too slow to cast, too slow to reach the target and tends just to be reflected back to you if it hits anyone with a shield or who happens to be a DK. (And with your planned changes to nerf reflects, you no longer can re-reflet the reflected attack... whoopdie doo.)

Also, Sorcs just refresh Harness Magicka and thank you for the magicka, while Night Blades dodge it or vanish. So yeah... What this skill would have needed was less obvious animation, and faster flight time, or some sort of proc to compete with crystal frags. I mean a sorc can be on defensive and spam shields and then suddenly retaliate with an instant frag to the face that stuns. and then either bolt away or execute your ass. That is a versatile and powerful ability. The damage increase is nice, and welcome indeed, but the skill is still just too weak, and fails miserably to the versatility provided by it's Sorc counterpart.

Vampire’s Bane (Sun Fire morph): Increased the damage over time duration for this morph to 9 seconds from 7 seconds.

AT this point the seizures of laughter are starting to get really painful... The useless morph of a useless skill gets a useless tweak. WOW. That one sure required an all new low of missing the point!

9 second DoT in this game is meaningless. With animation cancelling and the kind of spamming the good skills enable, you can finish a rotation of 4 skills twice during that time and still have time to spare. You can execute some of the attack, skill, bash combos over three times while that thing is burning. If there were 12 slotted abilities on each bar, then yeah maybe, but we only have 5 + 1 Ultimate. And there is no way in hell I am going to waste a slot on a skill that has a DoT time of 9 seconds while doing measly damage I can out DPS with a simple Crushing Shock light attack spam. And once again with much better passives to boot.

And that is in PVE. In PVP it is even less useful. No one is going to let it burn for 9 seconds. That thing is gonna get purged immediately. And it's till slow and the initial hit is about as impactful as a throwing shredded tissue paper at someone with your off hand.

And I have tried to use it - a lot. In many different combinations. But the bottom line is always the same - It's not as useful as basic spammable than just about any other option. Even when not going with a Destro staff, the undaunted skill Trapping Web is more useful ability to slot than this. The only use for the skill is in it's Reflective light form and that in grinding mobs while doing PVE leveling.

And this coming from a guy who really wanted to like this skill. *** used ti long into the Veteran levels because it fit my character so well. And als olooked cool. The Major prophecy it grants seemed like a no-brainer. A basic spammable, thematic to my Templar with a nice snare and a powerful buff? What's not to like. Well, it's weak as a skill can be, useless in PVP, the ancillary effects of other skills are much better than the snare it provides, and since Cyrodiil is such a ganker haven swarming with stealthed Night Blades, I consider it suicidal to venture beyond walls of a keep without having Mage light on. And with that, goes the last reason to use Sun Fire or any of it's morphs.

And let me just end this section by noting that Restoring Spirit needs a buff. It is in no way comparable to the resource management passives other classes have. And since most Templar skills are hideously expensive as is, it only manages to get our casting cost a tad closer to the base line. It was a high time for you guys to address this issue and buff Restoring Spirit, but... you blew it. Again. As usual.

And the tragedy continues with Restoring light...

Breath of Life (Rushed Ceremony morph): This morph now only fires one additional secondary heal, previously two heals.

Are you out of your frigging minds!?!? So the only thing that we templars had, you decided to nerf? Well, I suppose it could have been worse you could have reduced it's power, which you no doubt will eventually do since NB gankers will keep QQ about it until you cave in.

If you are going to cut 25% of it's healing power then at least cut it's price down by 20%. It's expensive as hell already, and nothing annoys quite like when NB players QQ about your OP self heal and the you go to Cyrodiil and die because the Smart Targetting of the skill decided to heal other players and not you...

This nerf is a deal breaker for me. BoL is the bread and butter of the class, and beyond stooping down to mutagen spam, the most consistent way to get AP in Cyrodiil, since we sure as hell can't kill anything. At least we were able to keep others propped up and thus get them to kill our enemies for us. But no... You really are doing everything you can to drive out Templar players from the game.

Cleansing Ritual:

Increased the healing from the Purify synergy from this ability and its morphs by 12%.
Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs could be used to cleanse projectiles that were mid-flight. It now matches the behavior of the Purge ability.

Why? I get the last one, since that is a bug. Put what on earth for are you buffing this one of all skills? I suppose it makes for longer sieges, and easier breach defenses but, I fail to see how this skill really needed anything done to it. It's jsut the kind of random meaningless change that you are notorious for. You snuffle the deck for no real reason, changing things in arbitrary fashion and end up with just a new set of issues.

Focused Healing: This passive ability now grants you the Major Mending buff while standing in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage area effects and for up to 2/4 seconds after leaving them at Ranks I/II, instead of granting you 15/30% more healing to allies standing in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage.

Another example of these arbitrary changes the results of which are hard to predict. On one hand it's cool we finally get Major Mending, after all it was tad daft that the "best healers" in the game didn't have access to this buff. But then you take away the non typed healing bonus for healing people standing in your Cleansing Ritual, which has been a key part of good Templar healing play from the launch of the game. We also lose potential synergy since this is now replaced with a typed bonus, so wont' stack with other sources of said bonus.

You also make us even more sitting ducks by forcing as to sit in our circles of power or lose the buff in a flash. And this change, when a key thing we as a class wanted was more mobility, you make us ever more rooted in place. I guess the poor NB's QQ too much about having to chase us down. So thanks ZOS ,such a good idea to make us even more static. I'm sure they are happy about this change.

Healing Ritual: Reduced the cast time for this ability and its morphs by 25%, and reduced the healing done by 25%.

Yet another meaningless change. A crappy skill with a way too long cast time is still a crappy skill even if you marginally lower it's cast time while also lowering it's power. No one will still use it.

Radiant Aura (Restoring Aura morph): This morph now grants you and your allies the Major Intellect buff upon activation, as well as having an increased radius as a morph effect.

Another change that completely misses it's mark. A pointless buff is pointless if no one ever uses the skill. Compared to Repentance this one is so weak. And gaining major Intellect is meaningless since Templar resource management sucks anyway, and we are constantly drinking potions and have the buff up pretty much constantly as is. But I suppose the classes that are not dependent on potions for resource management are happy to get all the major buffs for free... From their Templar Servants. And besides, other classes get comparable boosts to their resource management via passives, and Templars need to slot an active ability just to compete? Oh yeah, that is so balanced design that it dazzles with brilliance.

Restoring Focus (Rune Focus morph): This morph now grants you the Minor Protection buff, in addition to granting the Minor Vitality buff as a morph effect.

And the trend of meaningless changes continues it's triumphant procession! Minor Protection is such an insignificant buff to a skill no-one in their right mind is going to use anyway, that it borders on insanity. Stamplars have no need for the skil on their limited bars, and no Magplar can take a pass on Rune Focus since our resource management sucks so much. So buffing an already a weak morph with a really weak effect and thinking it matters is just ludicrous.

Rune Focus: Revised the tooltips for this ability and its morphs to indicate that the Major Ward and Major Resolve buffs will stick to you for 8 seconds after leaving the rune, while the morph effects of Channeled Focus and Restoring Focus require you to remain in the rune at all times.

Speaking of which... There was no reason to limit the morph effect to be only applicable when standing still and asking for enemies to come perforate our lateral orifices. This ability was just fine the way it was way back when it still used to be cool. With this update you should've finally made the thing move with the caster. The fact that the effects wore off after 8 seconds of leaving the rune was a big enough a drawback. Other classes get self buffs that last 20 seconds, and they can zap and zip about the battlefield as they want. The fact that rune focus gave you meaningful magicking regen on the run was one of the few saving graces of the class. But no... that would have meant we were not the red headed step childs of ESO that the other classes can use as a punching back. So that had to go.

All in all... So an utter failure. Not only did you not listen to the the people who play Templars, you appeased those who do not by nerfing us, and failed to make any meaningful change. And you did not deliver on teh two biggest key issues - movement and meaningful synergy. The Templar class has no synergy at all. And crappy resource management. So after months and months of constructive suggestions, hundreds of posts offering feedback on dozens of threads, you manage to come up with nothing. At all.

So, thinking about all those hugely touted big improvements you had planned for the Templar, and the promises of delivering class balance, all I can think of is hearing Gordon Ramsay say:

Thanks for posting this saved me some typing time i don't agree with everything said here but overall looks like they keep knocking the Templar down. Please do not make the roles in this game pointless. it is more fun with tank/healer/dps in groups. if the healing is off balance for the other roles bring them up to the Templar level instead of ruining the only good healing class in the game especially since it is the only thing we are good at. i like tanking and healing more than dps unless i am running solo quests.

Dread_Guy

I've thought about this a lot, but what if healing ritual capped incoming damage while you are channeling the heal? Maybe the lower the ally's health is, the lower the capped damage is. Ex - if an ally is at 20% health then the damage capped to them is 2% their max health.

Jesh

@ZOS_GinaBruno
You guys are great with using your analytics to make sensible decisions in the game. You talk about @ZOS_RichLambert using them in order to see what the average player gains in AP. I get this and agree with this.
How about using your analytics to see how much your average PUG (since you are encouraging the use of the Grouping Tool so much) needs BoL? My guess is that you will find that BoL is more important to your average player (which should totally be your target for gameplay changes) than it is for the much more experienced, near-professional players that you watch livestreaming.
You want to encourage PUGs? good! Then help us heal and run PUGs.

Don't be a mug, help the PUG.

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some feedback on Healing Ritual.

In one sentence: it's a great skill when it works (30K heals!), but it cannot be counted on to work.

When I first started playing my Templar at launch, I did use the skill and was relatively satisfied with how it worked. Part of this was because I didn't really understand the game's mechanics, one of the more prominent templar streamers (yes, there used to be one) used it a lot and I just trusted his judgement, and - importantly - at launch from levels 14-40 or so, the skill actually was reliable. It worked because during those levels the damage players took tended to be moderate and constant, which is exactly the type of damage this skill is best suited to heal.

The main problem with this spell is the type of damage players take in veteran content is completely unsuited for this skill: unpredictable spike damage. This is one of the few skills in the game that a legitimate argument can be made that players are actually hurting their group by using. I was messing around with in Wrothgar and was reminded of why I used it so long ago: the healing it does is actually *very* good (I was getting 30K critical heals without any buffs whatsoever). OK, so for fun I tried to use it on a world boss Daily, the tree guy from Nature's Bounty.

There were 9 people in the group. I was casting this spell a lot and the thought that kept coming to my mind was that 1.5 seconds is a short time, but seemed like an absolute eternity when people started taking damage. As the boss got to lower health, the damage was so fast and high there was no way I could anticipate when it was coming so I just spammed this skill. Yet, 7 people just insta-died, leaving just me and one other person alive. They died waiting for that 30K heal. I immediately reverted back to standard templar operating procedure, breath of life to make sure the other guy lived long enough for all the people to rez so a group of 9 didn't wipe to a World Boss. One second (without even considering reaction time and latency) is too long to wait for a heal. It's that simple.

Something else to consider: I was running some numbers and with the upcoming mending changes, and I think a templar spamming Healing Springs will provide more raw healing over time than Healing Ritual (and far more if the templars uses the Illustrious Healing morph instead). And the healing that comes from Springs is far more versatile because:

• It can be cast while blocking
• It cannot be interrupted
• The healing is constant
• No overhealing wastage that comes with Healing Ritual's 30K bursts
• The templar can move while casting this
• The templar can cast this where she is not standing
• It's healing radius is larger

About the only advantage Healing Ritual has over Healing Springs is a big burst 1.5 seconds after the cast is finished (Healing Springs eventually overtakes multiple Healing Rituals because of the multiple cast times). If there was a less risky way to get that efficient burst, then spell's efficiency becomes very attractive and I think would merit serious consideration. One way to do this would be to make it such that the channel distributed the healing over the entire duration of the cast time. Such a mechanic would do much to mitigate the whole "waiting for a heal" problem. I would try it. Ironically,I think I'd actually want Live's longer cast in such an scenario as the 1 second global colldown in-between skills becomes the main limiting factor. (i.e. longer cast times means more time healing and less time waiting for global cooldowns).

Quality post! Even with the cast time reduced, this skill is subpar to healing springs when mobility and burst dmg taken into effect.

I like your change alot. So much I'd push for us temps to support it. We should come up with a companion morph to this too (maybe it provides a 4 second burst to mobility for the caster with an instant cast and allies activate it to become immune to snares for equal duration?)

Reorx_Holybeard

BalticBlues wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Personally I'd much rather go with a LoS fix for BoL which would make the biggest difference in PVP and little to no difference in PVE.

Do you even play a Templar posting such things? In probably all LOS situations, Blessing of Restauration (BoR) is not only cheaper but also more effective than BOL, because it also gives Minor Resolves and Minor Ward to healed members, and with some smart positioning (instead of standing dumb & still in a rune focus) you can heal ALL group members, not only 2 as with the crippled BOL. BoL is so expensive that it only makes sense in emergency situations and without a LOS. If LOS would be a requirement for BoL, it would probably be dead, because BoR would nearly always be better.

I have the feeling that in these BOL nerf discussions many people who are posting have no idea how healing and tactical gameplay work in this game, especially certain DD streamers who refuse to have a smart game that requires tactical thinking instead of WB spamming.

A true PvP "solution" for BOL could be if each heal would cause visible waves going from the caster to the healed, as in BoR. This way probably even the clueless WB spammers in their streams would notice where the heals are coming from so that they could more easily kill the smart hiding (because usually chanceless in 1v1 fights) Templar healers. Some streamer cats probably need a navigation system to find the mice.

Perhaps some confusion there...I meant returning BoL to 3 targets but introducing a LoS check to it. This shouldn't affect PVE very much...I can't think of any dungeon that has any significant obstacles in the boss fights. It *will* affect PVP in the sense I can't hide behind a wall or rock and spam BoL anymore to heal my allies. It will force the Templar to be out in the open and subject to attackers, as they should be IMO. I'm not sure which the "better" option would be and you could certainly argue either way, I just don't think reducing BoL to 2 targets will have that much affect in PVP.

Joy_Division

Cinbri wrote: »

BoL nerf - most frustration from PvP templars regarding this nerf coming not coz nerf by itself but from fact that most effective healing build lost its effective but in return didn't get anything else to fill other roles.

This 100%.

Drewzi

As a stamplar this patch seems very underwhelming. I'm having a hard time staying positive about it.

Ashtaris

The biggest issue I see is that ZOS is getting it's feedback from the wrong people. If you read the Wrobel thread, they mentioned they were not changing BOL because of the feedback they were getting from watching the streams from the new trial, Maw Of Lorkhaj. And guess who was doing those trials? Groups such as Hodor and Alcast, some of the top PVE groups in the game. Not the casual Templar healer who is struggling to keep a low DPS or inexperienced pug group alive in a Vet dungeon. And that's been the problem with Wrobel all along, he gets his feedback from the wrong people, just his elite buddies.

Jesh

Ashtaris wrote: »

The biggest issue I see is that ZOS is getting it's feedback from the wrong people. If you read the Wrobel thread, they mentioned they were not changing BOL because of the feedback they were getting from watching the streams from the new trial, Maw Of Lorkhaj. And guess who was doing those trials? Groups such as Hodor and Alcast, some of the top PVE groups in the game. Not the casual Templar healer who is struggling to keep a low DPS or inexperienced pug group alive in a Vet dungeon. And that's been the problem with Wrobel all along, he gets his feedback from the wrong people, just his elite buddies.

And wasn't their Templar saying the BoL change will be a problem for them in SO?

tinythinker

Joy_Division wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

BoL nerf - most frustration from PvP templars regarding this nerf coming not coz nerf by itself but from fact that most effective healing build lost its effective but in return didn't get anything else to fill other roles.

This 100%.

On a related note I've suggested that the problem wasn't with the nerf to BoL but that BoL had become a crutch since the rest of Restoring Light was either "nuuuuuu!" or "meh" when it came to reliable group heals. BoL and Repentance (and to a lesser degree Cleansing Ritual & mrophs) have carried that skill line for too long. Other skills need to be made worthy of slotting. Rune Focus could be tweaked into a much better self buff but Honor the Dead, Resoring Aura, and Healing Ritual/morphs are still MIA from usefulness (although HoD isn't really that bad if you aren't running as a group healer).

acw37162

Here is my Templar suggestion;

* Note is also applicable to Dragon Knights because this deals primarly with the lack of mobility.

Change one of the passives a to the following;

With and ability from this skill line slotted and per piece of medium armor equipped; gain 25/50 % snare negation and 2/4% chance per pice of medium armor equipped to Ignore 1 hard stun capped at 20 %

Result;

An already slow class ignores any snare not greater then 50%.

You gains random chance at a free CC break, give it a animation half the time of normal breakout with no resource cost.

By tying it to medium armor magica builds and heavy armor builds have to scarfice quite a bit for every piece of medium the decide to wear.

Medium armor builds, slow as molasses in January stamina Templar builds get a surviveability buff.

The complete lack of mobility this class has is balanced by freer movement in combat due to snare reduction and a random chance to get a free breakout proc.

This essientally makes us slightly harder to kill statues, a fair trade in my eyes.

Edit:

Give the free breakout proc it's own animations and sound for messaging and give it a 4 - 6 second internal cool down after activation. So it won't proc twice in a row if the person your fighting throws another CC four seconds later.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Note the evasive way in which they say they are fixing Toppling Charge to make it 'more responsive'. That is a phrase calculated to give Templars the erroneous impression that they actually intend to fix the Global Cool Down of the skill. But what they will say when the update goes live and Templars realized they are not ever going to fix that, is something like, 'by more responsive we just meant you don't get stuck in the charge animation and the skill fires off regularly without the annoying bug that prevents it from firing.'

You really do have to parse their words carefully. They have no intentions of ever fixing the Global Cool Down on Toppling Charge, despite the near-universal outcry from their players. They are just not listening to the feedback on Templars, and haven't been for close to two years now.

WolfWarrior84

in regards to BoL i think instead of taking a target away give it a small cool down time so it can not be done over and over maybe 2 seconds or something. i might be the only one that thinks this would be a good idea it is just a thought on what else could be done . with some a the previous posts i would have to agree if there were more effective in group healing/ resource management moves in the tree this would not hurt us so much.