Spy Addon Group Damage

Enodoc

actosh wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.

How will this effect the FTC addon that allows group members to send/receive their dps results within their group if they choose to enable the option in their settings?

I think it will still work

Yeah, they haven't said anything about changing the way long-established things work. All they have said is that they are reverting an inadvertent change.

Beyond that though, we know they are discussing it. Fixing the unintended error is necessary to keep the game functioning as intended, but they may be open to "similar but different" alternatives in the future based on some of the more supportive uses discussed here (ones that don't involve "discriminating against players based on data they don’t know is being broadcast", as Gina put it).

actosh

At least they could make the game use combat logs u can save.
Then Raids could go ahead and use ACT, like it has been done in all other mmo´s......

With or Without the addon working......low dps that want to get carried through a dungeon will still be kicked.
So u won nothin. There will still ppl tellin u that your dps suck.

Whatever.....liars now can continue to tell ppl how much dps they do without posting the log ^^

I always carry low lvl chars with my guild through pledges and stuff, that addon was such an amazing tool to help improve the little ones.

Vangy

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

But in all fairness, me not telling someone their Dps sucks and carrying them through something isn't truly helping them. It's just putting up with them. Thyre going to walk away none the wiser then they were before. And yes someone can't change this up in a day or 2. But if they try and pm me again maybe in a few days or so I'd be much more then willing to give them another try. As opposed to carrying someone while saying nothing and then never grouping up with them again cos I don't enjoy slow runs.

I understand, but it's how YOU feel about it. Technically, by grouping up, what other team members want is to clear the dungeon, they're not signing up for a DPS-lesson. By carrying them through and compensating low DPS , you're technically doing just that : help them achieving what they want.
Of course, on your side, you're totally free to mention that you prefer quick runs, and that you're willing to provide some advice in case that person wants to do quick runs too. Some will gladly accept, some won't, that's up to them. And you're also totally free to never group up with them again. Obviously in the long-term that's the less constructive approach, but my point is that accepting advice is up to them, not you.
Sounds a bit "nit-picking" but these are significant details that can make a difference between destroying someone's self-confidence and encouraging progress. Not that I always get it right myself... Noticed that I just gave you some advice that you have not asked for ? ;-)

Yes u did! And being a sane person with confidence not @ the level of softness as bubble wrap I accept that advice. See? Giving advice can be good!

failkiwib16_ESO

Eh
Here's the thing ...good players usually have dps meters, FTC or whatever els that is popular.

I once did veteran Elden Hollow v7 scaled, and the dps was so bad, that our tank kindly quit the group, and I hurried to invite my friend over to tank for us instead. When we reached Bogdan, I spend so much time healing the 2 fragile DD's that the only damage I could do as a healer was restoration staff heavy attacks for magicka gain.

...some minutes later when Bogdan finelly died, the tank whispered me with his dps. 6k dps and did over 90% of the boss.

Please imagine this same group setup in a dungeon such as veteran Banished Cells. It would have been a cakewalk untill the endboss, where the healer can be thrown up in a bubble and the tank will be busy dealing with daedroths, leaving the fragile DD's die over and over...

---

Capable players don't usually kick bad players from groups, in my honest experience. People usually try to finish the run in whatever way possible usually, however it is nice to be able to see wether there is enough DD in a group, to complete certain dungeons that have dps-checks. Many tanks and healers pull a good deal of damage in dungeons on the easy bosses + mobs and try to focus more on our roles at the hard bosses .... so bad dd's can get carried through to an endboss that is impossible with them to complete.

There are also people in this game who sees all addons as abominations and cheating, so they refuse to download and install them, yet want to be able to pull through good numbers and roleplay damage dealers.
-I have a few minions who think like that, and addons like this helps me help them better. Because despite them seing addons as cheating, they don't mind having min/maxers and addon users in their groups, to help around and give them advice (and I don't tell them direct numbers, I just tell them what and how they need to improve..)

Jaeysa

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

There are also people in this game who sees all addons as abominations and cheating, so they refuse to download and install them, yet want to be able to pull through good numbers and roleplay damage dealers.

Or(like me) add-ons slow down their game to where it impedes their abilities. I don't actually have Group Damage because it was either/or FTC and I like the set-up in FTC better. Having both was too cumbersome.

timidobserver

Care Bear hit Group Damage for 500,000 with Care Bear Stare

Kyoma

timidobserver wrote: »

Care Bear hit Group Damage for 500,000 with Care Bear Stare

Oh noes! Where was the healer?!?!

Xexpo

This is actually a care bear vs. care bear war...

THIS THREAD IN PICTURE FORM:

Bluepitbull13

Bluepitbull13

/sarcasm

KallistaBlackheart

simple solution for those not wanting advice or suggestions on their build and or play style... don't do content that will have others depending on you for a certain minimum level of output. that could be HPS or DPS or how much damage you can soak up, if it is in a group then others can and could be able to give and take criticism and advice. sadly without a reliable tool to take an accurate look at what is going on in a event, we will have to revert to guessing.


R.I.P GroupDamage.

coolmodi

Jaeysa wrote: »

Or(like me) add-ons slow down their game to where it impedes their abilities. I don't actually have Group Damage because it was either/or FTC and I like the set-up in FTC better. Having both was too cumbersome.

One huge advantage of GroupDamage over the old (and soon again new) situation is that only ONE (e.g. raid leader) person needs it, the others don't need anything. With FTC everyone needs it so it can be shared/posted.

They basically just add getting kicked over not having an addon to the list again, while really helping nobody, only the feels of some hypersensitive people.

anitajoneb17_ESO

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

simple solution for those not wanting advice or suggestions on their build and or play style... don't do content that will have others depending on you for a certain minimum level of output. that could be HPS or DPS or how much damage you can soak up, if it is in a group then others can and could be able to give and take criticism and advice. sadly without a reliable tool to take an accurate look at what is going on in a event, we will have to revert to guessing.

"Do it my way or don't do it at all" ? I hope you realize this is precisely why ZOS doesn't want this addon. The game has already enough problems due to people fearing others and their judgements, who don't use the LFG tool and don't want to join guilds. The long-term success of the game depends highly on people making social contacts and friends, which will keep them logging in regularly even if they've run out of content or get a bit bored. And for that, they have to group, guild, talk, communicate. Your "be-good-or-GTFO" attitude is bad for the game. You're free to impose it in your guild with like-minded people, that's okay, but don't let it spread over the entire grouping system.

Since you say can take criticism and advice, here's one : get good enough yourself so that you can complete content successfully without having to fear other people pulling less than you.

coolmodi wrote: »

They basically just add getting kicked over not having an addon to the list again, while really helping nobody, only the feels of some hypersensitive people.

How about "don't kick, just adapt" ?
You don't get to judge who is "hypersensitive", how about calling you "hyper-competitive" or "hyper-judgemental" ? And you have no clue how many or how few of those sensitive people there are in the game.

I could have quoted other people too... I just hope you all realize that each contribution of this type proves again and again that ZOS made the right decision.

You should replace any "don't PUG if you don't want to be judged" by "don't PUG if you don't want to risk playing with less experienced players".

I probably shouldn't post here anymore, since ZOS made a decision and there's nothing to be changed, but really, seeing you all QQ that you won't be able to defend yourself by filtering out "baddies" from your groups ( or "help - cough cough - them") makes me wonder... so, according to you, most people are nice, jerks will be jerks anyway, but still everyone is a liar that needs to be uncovered by GroupDamage... ?

.

coolmodi

@anitajoneb17_ESO Sorry if what I sometimes write here sounds bad, but I know what personal data is, I know what insults etc. are, ffs I was mobbed in school a long time, I also know what working in a team means, so with my background this whole "I want the dps of my virtual anonymous char private while in a group effort where it plays a major role because some people could judge me over it" just sounds borderline crazy.
I just can't take it seriously. It just sound like it comes from supersensitive people without any form of self-esteem, even less than I have, because I at least couldn't care less what people think about me in an online game that has no connection to me irl.

It just seems so surreal that there are people that fear getting judged for their performance in a group event they themself decide to take part in.

Also you can in now way replace "don't PUG if you don't want to be judged" by "don't PUG if you don't want to risk playing with less experienced players".
You can expect people that want to achive something with a team to do their part, and you can also expect your team judging you if they see you responsible for their defeat. So don't joining a team if you don't want that is actually sound advice.
And people who PUG expect that there are bad players, just people that are far behind what the team wants are a peoblem, and the team has the right to not want those people in.

When I queue for a LFG dungeon I don't only expect bad people, I know I will get bad people. But I don't care as long as they are good enough to complete the dungeon. If I MAKE a PUG though, then I have the right to only take people that are as good as I want. There's nothing to argue against that.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Since you say can take criticism and advice, here's one : get good enough yourself so that you can complete content successfully without having to fear other people pulling less than you.

Even though this wasn't directed at me: I don't study etc. so I can later earn money to share with a gender-study feminist that doesn't do anything. I can DECIDE who to share it with.
You also, AGAIN, ignore the fact that not everybody is so good that he can compesate for someone else. You just make absolutely no sense at all.

You also ignore what people actually write, only see everything as a single whole instead of in context. For some reason you reduced the addon to filtering "liar baddys", which is just ONE THING OF MANY that were talked about.

@Topic: On another note, ZOS is thinking about an opt-in solution, they just seem unsure whether it would still have negative consequences they don't want. Lets you hope at least

Jaeysa

@anitajoneb17_ESO - several things.

1.

get good enough yourself so that you can complete content successfully without having to fear other people pulling less than you.

Fear? No. But pure and simple a decent DPS can't meet dps checks by themselves, especially if they just meet the requirements, maybe a little bit more.
2.

or "help - cough cough - them"

You clearly haven't read half the comments that are for this add-on. This add-on can help people, and it has in the past. It means that you can look at a run that's having problems and, potentially, see what's going on wrong and ask 'hey, what kind of skill bar are you running?
3.

most people are nice, jerks will be jerks anyway, but still everyone is a liar that needs to be uncovered by GroupDamage... ?

Being good or bad at the game has no bearing on if you're a nice person or a jerk. At the same time, I don't care how nice you are - I don't want to spend three hours in a pledge.
4.

You should replace any "don't PUG if you don't want to be judged" by "don't PUG if you don't want to risk playing with less experienced players".

I have less expectations for pugs than pre-made groups, but at the same time, I have expectations. Don't stand in the fire. Have an idea how to play your class. If you don't know the fights, either say something or look them up. I don't mind explaining a fight but I do mind wiping forever because the boss has a dps check and the dps/other dps can't make it.

anitajoneb17_ESO

coolmodi wrote: »

Even though this wasn't directed at me: I don't study etc. so I can later earn money to share with a lazy gender-study feminist that doesn't do anything. I can DECIDE who to share it with.

Woops... wanna reconsider your wording maybe... ???

coolmodi wrote: »

You also, AGAIN, ignore the fact that not everybody is so good that he can compesate for someone else. You just make absolutely no sense at all.

If you think that in life in general waiting for others to be good enough is more efficient than to be good enough yourself, and thinking that you can *change* others, well that's your opinion. I suspect life will prove you wrong on more than one occasion.

coolmodi wrote: »

@Topic: On another note, ZOS is thinking about an opt-in solution, they just seem unsure whether it would still would have negative consequences they don't want. Lets you hope at least

Source ?
You and others HOPE that ZOS will consider an opt-in solution. Nothing says they are.
(I wouldn't mind, though).

anitajoneb17_ESO

@Jaeysa :

I know, and I agree with your points to a certain extent, or at least understand them, but some comments in here are just SO EXTREME that countering them requires to be a little bit extreme, too.

Docmandu

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.

Good call... don't do much PvE myself, but find these things rather toxic and they usually bring out the "best" in people. Good riddance I say.

coolmodi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Woops... wanna reconsider your wording maybe... ???

They may actually not be lazy, removed the lazy, sorry

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Source ?

KallistaBlackheart

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

simple solution for those not wanting advice or suggestions on their build and or play style... don't do content that will have others depending on you for a certain minimum level of output. that could be HPS or DPS or how much damage you can soak up, if it is in a group then others can and could be able to give and take criticism and advice. sadly without a reliable tool to take an accurate look at what is going on in a event, we will have to revert to guessing.

"Do it my way or don't do it at all" ? I hope you realize this is precisely why ZOS doesn't want this addon. The game has already enough problems due to people fearing others and their judgements, who don't use the LFG tool and don't want to join guilds. The long-term success of the game depends highly on people making social contacts and friends, which will keep them logging in regularly even if they've run out of content or get a bit bored. And for that, they have to group, guild, talk, communicate. Your "be-good-or-GTFO" attitude is bad for the game. You're free to impose it in your guild with like-minded people, that's okay, but don't let it spread over the entire grouping system.

Since you say can take criticism and advice, here's one : get good enough yourself so that you can complete content successfully without having to fear other people pulling less than you.

coolmodi wrote: »

They basically just add getting kicked over not having an addon to the list again, while really helping nobody, only the feels of some hypersensitive people.

How about "don't kick, just adapt" ?
You don't get to judge who is "hypersensitive", how about calling you "hyper-competitive" or "hyper-judgemental" ? And you have no clue how many or how few of those sensitive people there are in the game.

I could have quoted other people too... I just hope you all realize that each contribution of this type proves again and again that ZOS made the right decision.

You should replace any "don't PUG if you don't want to be judged" by "don't PUG if you don't want to risk playing with less experienced players".

I probably shouldn't post here anymore, since ZOS made a decision and there's nothing to be changed, but really, seeing you all QQ that you won't be able to defend yourself by filtering out "baddies" from your groups ( or "help - cough cough - them") makes me wonder... so, according to you, most people are nice, jerks will be jerks anyway, but still everyone is a liar that needs to be uncovered by GroupDamage... ?

.

such a very thorough misunderstanding, misrepresented and completely misconstrued summation of my view.

@coolmodi and @Jaeysa have done a fair rebuttal that i mostly agree with. i will leave it at that.

anitajoneb17_ESO

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

such a very thorough misunderstanding, misrepresented and completely misconstrued summation of my view.

Then maybe you should have expressed your view differently.

coolmodi wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Good to know. It's a nice discussion over there since everyone is recognizing the problem in the first place instead of denying or ignoring it and calling people "carebears" or worse. And this Chip guy rocks. You're right, let's keep the discussion over there as healthy as possible.

You keep mentioning that "GroupDamage or /kick" wouldn't be any different from the current "FTC-sharing or /kick".
Truth is, I've *never*, and I mean *never ever* landed in a group via LFG where FTC-sharing was required or even mentioned. I believe GroupDamage would cause more damage than FTC because of all the additional statistics it provides. It would be required far more often from PUG groups (for both nice and nasty purposes).

.

coolmodi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I've *never*, and I mean *never ever* landed in a group via LFG where FTC-sharing was required or even mentioned.

Which means that they don't care for dmg, GroupDamage doesn't change that. The people that kick over dmg or because it takes too long (or they leave) will do so with or without GroupDamage or FTC. And I think it's save to say that they also don't use LFG usually.

That's why I don't see it as a big problem, it's not like GroupDamage suddenly makes people kick over something they never cared for before. The people that do use FTC for that already. Or they just asume it over seeing you do some different rotation or whatever.

So you saying that you never encountered that in LFG (which figures) just proves that the problem people see in GroupDamage isn't even that much of a problem, and that the problem ChipHilseberg noted with the opt-in solution shouldn't be one at all, as "opt-in or kick" just replaces "FTC or kick".

Function

Honestly I found pugging more more relaxing with GroupDamage.. no one was bugging anyone about posting FTC numbers or anything (and no one was being discriminated against for lower numbers ).

failkiwib16_ESO

Jaeysa wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

There are also people in this game who sees all addons as abominations and cheating, so they refuse to download and install them, yet want to be able to pull through good numbers and roleplay damage dealers.

Or(like me) add-ons slow down their game to where it impedes their abilities. I don't actually have Group Damage because it was either/or FTC and I like the set-up in FTC better. Having both was too cumbersome.

@Jaeysa ah true, and they also cause bugs sometimes T_T There are in the end many reasons to why people use or don't use addons, but for me it's only a help to be able to see my group members dps/tank/heal output.

I rarely run with 2 new dd's, it's often a friend + one new DD, so dungeon completion is ensured. So wether or not the new is bad or good, I still want to be able to see actual numbers. It does make a difference to wether the new dd can pull 2k or 12k dps.

When I join group with new members of my guild, I usually want to see what they make. If they're 15k+ then I can recomend them to others for grouping, if they're 12k dd's I can encourage them to talk to better players to improve their dps, if they're hopeless 2k dps dd's that want to improve then we need to have a loooong talk about gear + build.

anitajoneb17_ESO

coolmodi wrote: »

Which means that they don't care for dmg, GroupDamage doesn't change that. The people that kick over dmg or because it takes too long (or they leave) will do so with or without GroupDamage or FTC. And I think it's save to say that they also don't use LFG usually.

That's why I don't see it as a big problem, it's not like GroupDamage suddenly makes people kick over something they never cared for before. The people that do use FTC for that already. Or they just asume it over seeing you do some different rotation or whatever.

So you saying that you never encountered that in LFG (which figures) just proves that the problem people see in GroupDamage isn't even that much of a problem, and that the problem ChipHilseberg noted with the opt-in solution shouldn't be one at all, as "opt-in or kick" just replaces "FTC or kick".

- You dare saying that after 22 pages of cries and QQ about how people desperately need to meter other people's DPS to filter out bad DPS from their PUG groups and not spend too much time in a pledge ? LOL, really ! People who care about damage should not use LFG but they do it nonetheless and this thread proves it big time. And that's the main issue for ZOS.

GroupDamage with opt-in function implemented by ZOS will be more of a problem than FTC because it would not require everyone to have the add-on installed, but only to uncheck a box that everyone will have.

Conclusion : you cannot pretend that GroupDamage will have the same impact than FTC has now. Because it would be considerably easier to use, AND be facilitated by ZOS via a base-game feature, it would be far more widely spread and even considered "standard" (not "optional addon"). "GD-enable or kick" would be far more widespread than "FTC or kick".

code65536

I was a DPS in a Group Finder PUG for today's Elden Hollow nonvet pledge on one of my toons.

The other three members were a VR16 healer wearing the Baron polymorph that you get from completing VMA, a VR16 DPS, and a level 47 tank.

The other DPS only light-attacked with his bow. The "tank" was dual-wielding and had no taunt ability. The healer and I basically did 90% of the damage in that dungeon, and although we both were running GroupDamage (I know this because the healer had whispered to me something to the jist of "Are you seeing what I'm seeing in GroupDamage?"), and the healer had crown, we didn't kick them or insult them or say much of anything (other than to ask if the "tank" has a taunt). We just quietly carried them through the dungeon, at the end of which we each thanked them for the run before leaving the group.

These so-called "elitist" players that people are so afraid of usually won't kick because when we PUG, we know this is what we might get, and we're prepared to carry the group if it comes down to it. And even if we do kick, we could tell that someone's DPS is horrible by looking--GD simply quantifies it for us. In other words, the existence or non-existence of GroupDamage would've made no difference.

Bluepitbull13

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- You dare saying that after 22 pages of cries and QQ about how people desperately need to meter other people's DPS to filter out bad DPS from their PUG groups and not spend too much time in a pledge ? LOL, really ! People who care about damage should not use LFG but they do it nonetheless and this thread proves it big time. And that's the main issue for ZOS.

GroupDamage with opt-in function implemented by ZOS will be more of a problem than FTC because it would not require everyone to have the add-on installed, but only to uncheck a box that everyone will have.

Conclusion : you cannot pretend that GroupDamage will have the same impact than FTC has now. Because it would be considerably easier to use, AND be facilitated by ZOS via a base-game feature, it would be far more widely spread and even considered "standard" (not "optional addon"). "GD-enable or kick" would be far more widespread than "FTC or kick".

anitajoneb17_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

These so-called "elitist" players that people are so afraid of usually won't kick because when we PUG, we know this is what we might get, and we're prepared to carry the group if it comes down to it. And even if we do kick, we could tell that someone's DPS is horrible by looking--GD simply quantifies it for us. In other words, the existence or non-existence of GroupDamage would've made no difference.

You did not kick or insult or belittle, others might have.
On the other hand, what was the value added by GD in this run ? NONE.
Wanna take risks over something that brings nothing ... ?

I'm strictly referring to LFG groups here.

Actually I think disallowing GD to function with LFG-groups and allowing it anywhere else in PvE dungeons could be a solution. I would not be overly happy about it but I could live with it fine. (This is one of the possibilities considered by ZOS atm, according to the other thread on ESOUI.)

anitajoneb17_ESO

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

.

Bluepitbull13

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

.

unbuffed or buffed?