Spy Addon Group Damage

Shunravi

Enodoc wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

stop being toxic

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

You're drunk, dude, go home.

Hhhmmm.... your sense of courtesy does not have to disappear together with GroupDamage, you know...

how was what he said not toxic?

It's no more or less toxic than a number of other posts in this thread, and that has gone both ways. The competitive players have bashed the "carebears", the casual players have bashed the "elitists". But the facts are that ZOS has patched out an unintentional feature of the code, which was never going to stick around as it was unintentional, and are considering options for how the data can be shared in a less covert manner.

ZOS_ChipHilseberg wrote:

A checkbox is something we considered and are considering. The issue with that approach is that it doesn't really provide much help in the pick-up group case which is the one that has most potential for problems. We can assume that if you are grouping with friends that they won't give you a hard time. With your guild, it's the guild's values that matter and you can choose to commit to a guild that matches your values. But for the pick-up group, the DPS meter really points up the DPS component pf group success which can lead to situations where a person has a bad first pull, or a person is capable of succeeding with the group as a whole but is below a threshold that leader decides is good enough, and they are kicked. DPS is just one component of group success and relying on it exclusively as a metric for whether the group can succeed or not can destroy perfectly good groups. Putting a checkbox in would let the player hide their DPS, but my guess is that it would just turn into a situation where they are forced to turn on the setting or be kicked. A player choosing to not show DPS would be assumed to be bad. On the other hand, something like only allowing the full info in trials, or only allowing it in premade groups (not LFG) would take the pressure and control away from individual players. None of this is to say that any of these other solutions will be used. I just wanted to point out that having a checkbox isn't necessarily a perfect solution. Finding something that would highlight the good parts of DPS meters (learning and optimization) while minimizing the bad parts (kicking anyone under X DPS on the first pull) would be the goal. Any ideas on that front would be constructive feedback.

I responded to a different reply as well, but what the hey. In as direct response to the tone of the thread, the inevitability of the decision, and what he was saying about community while seemingly gloating about people possibly leaving it, is why I replied to him and not any of the other comments on either side (as both are salty and toxic).

Also it was center of my screen when I opened the thread again...

eventide03b14a_ESO

Defilted wrote: »

Few things mentioned in this thread that are interesting.

1. Players should not be able to see you numbers and gear without your consent.

This information is not yours in anyway and you have no right to hide it from other as it is not yours to begin with.

You didn't make the game so it's really not for you to decide who has what right.

2. DPS numbers will get me or others kicked form groups

This comment in general might be true in some groups. I have played MMO's for a long time now and these types of players will always be there. I cant even imagine trying a speed run or a speed no death run on any dungeon with a pug group. Why would you even do this to yourself?

I am on XBOX so I get to see no numbers which sucks. I would love to see my own and others for the simple fact I could ask them what they are doing and see if I can improve what I am doing.

First off, sorry you decided to play this on console. I hope you realize your error. Second, they are not preventing a player from seeing their own numbers, so if you want personal improvement (on a PC) then you can still review your own numbers.

4. Good players do not need numbers to know they are doing good DPS

I would agree with this only because I play on a platform with no numbers at all. You get a good sense on how long a boss should be alive and how many rotations of the phases you should go through before they are dead.

Seeing numbers on the next big release will be great and allow me to improve greatly.

Again, not something you need to see another person's numbers about.

As the for the over all conversation

Seeing and comparing numbers will be a good thing overall and allow players to get better if they choose to do so. There will always be players that are not nice people.

No, what it will do is exactly what ZOS is trying to prevent. If you're that insecure in your own life that you need to show off your uberness fine, but not everyone wants to participate in that. Some people play this game for fun.

LadyNalcarya

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

how was what he said not toxic?

IMHO his/her interpretation of ZOS' decision might be a little bit extreme, but expressing it is not "toxic", and in any case throwing this without adding anything else is insulting, not constructive.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Yeah, bashing competitive players in this thread is absolutely fine, everyone knows that they're not people and not Zos' customers, and their only purpose is to carry casuals through dungeons and to be scapegoats if casuals find something in game not casual enough.
At the start of the discussion I was just wondering why anyone would need such addons to estimate group dps because its obvious. I was honestly trying to understand my opponents, and I can actually understand some of the opinions I dont share. But you know, courtesy only works if both sides accept it. And in the end "carebears" turned out to be much bigger jerks, self-centered and narrow-minded, that those they were complaining about. The post I quoted illustrates it perfectly.

Courtesy works both sides, yes, and I assume you remember without having to read everything again that casual players have had more than their share of disrespectful name calling in this thread ("carebear cancer"...), IMHO far more than vice-versa.
Then again IMHO insults is what's left when someone's run out of arguments.

.

Well, if saying "haha Zos doesnt want you here, flock off" is appropriate... If mentioning "dps complexes" and "micro *** " is appropriate... If assuming that any player is obliged to spend a whole evening soloing a dungeon for a group of people who dont even care about teamwork is appropriate...
I already said I have thicker skin than you, but all this rudeness and hate towards competitive players (not only in this thread) more than enough for me to stop carrying teams when I pug as a dd.
You see, casuals on these forums like to point out that they're the majority of players so the game must cater exclusively to them. But even though that is true, TES games' fanbase is very wide, and includes pretty much every category of players. Its not "casual only" series like Farmville, and have never been. So in the best case scenario this game should offer something to everyone.
And if Zos should only cater to majority, then they shouldnt only ignore minmaxers, but roleplayers as well, and the game in general must cater only to straight male gamers. Girl gamers are the minority in this game as well, so who cares about their opinion on armored bikinis and other stuff like that.

Elsonso

I guess what they need in Looking For Group is a checkbox or setting to indicate the type of group... "laid-back" or competitive. Something like that might help. People in a "laid-back" group would probably not expect top DPS, best builds, split second execution. People in the other group probably would.

Shunravi

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Some people play this game for fun.

@eventide03b14a_ESO I just gotta say lol. Disregarding everything else in your reply (why continue the salt?), I do hope you realize everyone plays the game for fun. Just because their definition of fun in the game is different does not mean it isn't fun.

Shunravi

lordrichter wrote: »

I guess what they need in Looking For Group is a checkbox or setting to indicate the type of group... "laid-back" or competitive. Something like that might help. People in a "laid-back" group would probably not expect top DPS, best builds, split second execution. People in the other group probably would.

Absolutely. And I think adding more difficulty tiers in general can help.... but definitely an option to pick up a group more suited to what you are interested in (and I'm not talking casual/elite. Think speed runs/no death achievements) without a guild could be a great addition to the group finder.

anitajoneb17_ESO

@Shunravi : makes more sense said this way. Guess it was more a misunderstanding than anything else.

@KoshkaMurka : I guess sensitivity to "insults" varies according to which side of the argumentation they come from, and where we stand.
As to the rest... I think reducing this entire debate to a "elite vs. casual" thing is washing it down (while inflaming it at the same time). In this thread alone we've had some casual speaking for the addon and some elite speaking against it.
And for the majority vs. minority thing... sure, ZOS must take numbers into consideration (it's a business after all), BUT I think they also have a vision of their game and what they want it to be, and after all, whether we agree with it or not, they're responsible for keeping the whole thing consistent, from both a gameplay and an artistic point of view.
Remember that the game, at the start, was meant to show no numbers at all. Remember when FTC was officially forbidden in PvP... I believe the reason for the decision lies more in ZOS' vision of the game than in the (relatively few, as compared to the entire playerbase) people who have spoken for or against this addon here or elsewhere.

@lordrichter : Chip explained why it wouldn't be really fair to split the LFG "pool" in two because of this issue. Message has been quoted by @Enodoc .

.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Shunravi wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Some people play this game for fun.

@eventide03b14a_ESO I just gotta say lol. Disregarding everything else in your reply (why continue the salt?), I do hope you realize everyone plays the game for fun. Just because their definition of fun in the game is different does not mean it isn't fun.

I don't find shaming other players to be fun. Sorry bro.

Nugge

One solution for this would be that it is shared between friends and guild mates (if guild activates it). This way no one can force anyone to toggle the switch. Guilds can still use it and so would friends who want to get better together.

Enodoc wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

stop being toxic

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

You're drunk, dude, go home.

Hhhmmm.... your sense of courtesy does not have to disappear together with GroupDamage, you know...

how was what he said not toxic?

It's no more or less toxic than a number of other posts in this thread, and that has gone both ways. The competitive players have bashed the "carebears", the casual players have bashed the "elitists". But the facts are that ZOS has patched out an unintentional feature of the code, which was never going to stick around as it was unintentional, and are considering options for how the data can be shared in a less covert manner.

ZOS_ChipHilseberg wrote:

A checkbox is something we considered and are considering. The issue with that approach is that it doesn't really provide much help in the pick-up group case which is the one that has most potential for problems. We can assume that if you are grouping with friends that they won't give you a hard time. With your guild, it's the guild's values that matter and you can choose to commit to a guild that matches your values. But for the pick-up group, the DPS meter really points up the DPS component pf group success which can lead to situations where a person has a bad first pull, or a person is capable of succeeding with the group as a whole but is below a threshold that leader decides is good enough, and they are kicked. DPS is just one component of group success and relying on it exclusively as a metric for whether the group can succeed or not can destroy perfectly good groups. Putting a checkbox in would let the player hide their DPS, but my guess is that it would just turn into a situation where they are forced to turn on the setting or be kicked. A player choosing to not show DPS would be assumed to be bad. On the other hand, something like only allowing the full info in trials, or only allowing it in premade groups (not LFG) would take the pressure and control away from individual players. None of this is to say that any of these other solutions will be used. I just wanted to point out that having a checkbox isn't necessarily a perfect solution. Finding something that would highlight the good parts of DPS meters (learning and optimization) while minimizing the bad parts (kicking anyone under X DPS on the first pull) would be the goal. Any ideas on that front would be constructive feedback.

ZOS_AlanG

This thread is being locked due to a large amount of disruptive, inflammatory, and off topic posting. We appreciate that this is a topic many have strong opinions about, and many have discussed in a perfectly civil and constructive manner. However it has been rocky from the get go, and at this point spends almost as much time discussing itself as the original issue.

As stated in the forum rules, please remember to be respectful and constructive at all times on our forums, and help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and there's no problem with disagreement or debate. But this needs to be kept civil and within the forum rules. Insulting, berating, or demeaning those who disagree with you is not acceptable.