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• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – November 11, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – November 13, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – November 13, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
Spy Addon Group Damage
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sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭Before you all went on attacking on personalities to make 0 point over pages and pages, Anita was pointing that runs are possible by observing the mechanics whatever the dps.
yes i'm more an asset to the group if I interrupt every enemy heal with *** dps than anyone who hurt his fingers spamming his 3 skills to outdps me with 0 situational relevance.
that what Chip explained too. Zos doesn't want that.
example : tank is having a micro *** because he's outdpsing one dps player? yes maybe if he was more busy doing his tank job, the dps would have his hands free to pull some damages. Teamwork is supposed to be more efficient than the sum of each participants dps, if it isn't then there is a group problem and it's not the output of damages.
Now if you want to improve yourself FTC is enough. be better than yesterday, explain to me the mechanics, if I suck at dpsing find me something useful to do but just stop pissing me off with your number obsession. Unless you find a way to add to the dps all the damages the healer didn't have to heal and the mobs couldn't regen.
See thats the problem. If i look for group for any dungeon i do not expect prefection. I do expect though that people queueing as dps are dps, as tank are really tanks (and not double wielding "i play how i want").
You say " suck at dpsing find me something useful to do" but what exactly? Is it that terrible of me that when i group for normal (not vet mode mind you) dungeon i expect more or less smooth run?3 -
WandaMey✭✭✭
You say " suck at dpsing find me something useful to do" but what exactly? Is it that terrible of me that when i group for normal (not vet mode mind you) dungeon i expect more or less smooth run?
yes that's the idea, if you can't assign me anything to do while i have a block and interrupt + all my class skills and and a X key on my keyboard maybe you need to be lectured as much as I am instead of checking permanently if you are pissing further than me.
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sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
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You say " suck at dpsing find me something useful to do" but what exactly? Is it that terrible of me that when i group for normal (not vet mode mind you) dungeon i expect more or less smooth run?
yes that's the idea, if you can't assign me anything to do while i have a block and interrupt + all my class skills and and a X key on my keyboard maybe you need to be lectured as much as I am instead of checking permanently if you are pissing further than me.
But why i have to assign you anything? And what about the people who dont take kindly any remarks on what they do?4 -
WandaMey✭✭✭
But why i have to assign you anything? And what about the people who dont take kindly any remarks on what they do?
are you sure that it's not the way these remarks are done in cause here? look do you see a difference :
1)- your dps suck + kick
2) Hey blablaname, i see you're new and don't have top gear. could you focus on interrupting everything that come on the healer please?
3) hmmmm just kill the boss's heal bubbles plz don't get in the way
ok? do you see a difference? I'm sure nobody would even take offense on the 3) way either.
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.
But why i have to assign you anything? And what about the people who dont take kindly any remarks on what they do?
are you sure that it's not the way these remarks are done in cause here? look do you see a difference :
1)- your dps suck + kick
2) Hey blablaname, i see you're new and don't have top gear. could you focus on interrupting everything that come on the healer please?
3) hmmmm just kill the boss's heal bubbles plz don't get in the way
ok? do you see a difference? I'm sure nobody would even take offense on the 3) way either.
All three are the same. All include a judgement, which could be interpreted as an insult. Take out the judgment part of the statements and see how they read.7 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭
But why i have to assign you anything? And what about the people who dont take kindly any remarks on what they do?
are you sure that it's not the way these remarks are done in cause here? look do you see a difference :
1)- your dps suck + kick
2) Hey blablaname, i see you're new and don't have top gear. could you focus on interrupting everything that come on the healer please?
3) hmmmm just kill the boss's heal bubbles plz don't get in the way
ok? do you see a difference? I'm sure nobody would even take offense on the 3) way either.
So lets say i choose 1. Does it make me a bad person? Cold *** that dont want to be helpful? Perhaps but i really hate wasting my time.3 -
WandaMey✭✭✭And?
It would be better if you had my exact number of dps to argue?
1) i'm kicked, and pissed, i've lost my time i have to queue again - i probably won't and play something else.
2) yes dude I know, i suck, thanks for letting me try.
3) OK guy is pissed I get it, but wtf i can actually be useful. I'll check some guides for next time1 -
WandaMey✭✭✭
So lets say i choose 1. Does it make me a bad person? Cold *** that dont want to be helpful? Perhaps but i really hate wasting my time.
If you need to rely on that groupdamage addon to know that your tank is dual wielding in a leather armor maybe you're the one that make people loose their time. Just unstick your eyes from your peepeemeter 2 seconds.2 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
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But why i have to assign you anything? And what about the people who dont take kindly any remarks on what they do?
are you sure that it's not the way these remarks are done in cause here? look do you see a difference :
1)- your dps suck + kick
2) Hey blablaname, i see you're new and don't have top gear. could you focus on interrupting everything that come on the healer please?
3) hmmmm just kill the boss's heal bubbles plz don't get in the way
ok? do you see a difference? I'm sure nobody would even take offense on the 3) way either.
Let me jump in here and let you know how I set things up.
In that situation you are presenting none of those work. What you have to do is you have a honest conversation with the person who is struggling and figure out the synergy of the team.
My tanking style isn't the typical in this game and it may take getting used to, but I manage that expectation by communicating. Let people know what to expect and emotional outbursts are controlled.
This is a game. There are awesome people who play this game from all walks of life. If you treat the players you encounter with some base respect and graciousness you can have a hell of a time.
There are those who don't share these views, and make no mistake, they are entitled to it, but my advice to those who want to only be the best: don't put your level of commitment and dedication to perfection get in the way of potentially having fun.
It comes down to talking to the people on the team and importantly listening to those who obviously see what the problem is.
Sorry for the long post, but it's *** when you have any exclusatory group trying to affect change for the whole.
Edit.
Let me add my thoughts on topic lol.
If used in a helpful and educational manner, group damage is a great tool. If used in an exclusatory and gating way, group damage is toxic.
There is nothing inherently bad or good about it, it's how people use it. I think it should be a way for the group to form surrounding these variables.
To find a group that suits your needs, check group damage and addons. Dont check and your group does not post global numbers. Pretty simple solution everyone is happy.Edited by yodased on January 24, 2016 6:08PMTl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.3 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
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But why i have to assign you anything? And what about the people who dont take kindly any remarks on what they do?
are you sure that it's not the way these remarks are done in cause here? look do you see a difference :
1)- your dps suck + kick
2) Hey blablaname, i see you're new and don't have top gear. could you focus on interrupting everything that come on the healer please?
3) hmmmm just kill the boss's heal bubbles plz don't get in the way
ok? do you see a difference? I'm sure nobody would even take offense on the 3) way either.
Just a question...
Imagine that you got a group and healer says: "Sorry guys, I'm on stamina build and cant really heal, but hey, I got this resto staff so I can spam rapid regen on you" and a tank says "Sorry guys, I dont have any skillpoints for taunts and heavy armor doesnt look good enough on my char, but hey, I can bash". What will you do in this situation?Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just a question...
Imagine that you got a group and healer says: "Sorry guys, I'm on stamina build and cant really heal, but hey, I got this resto staff so I can spam rapid regen on you" and a tank says "Sorry guys, I dont have any skillpoints for taunts and heavy armor doesnt look good enough on my char, but hey, I can bash". What will you do in this situation?
At this point you don't have a group you have 4 people.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.6 -
WandaMey✭✭✭Let me jump in here and let you know how I set things up.
In that situation you are presenting none of those work. What you have to do is you have a honest conversation with the person who is struggling and figure out the synergy of the team.
My tanking style isn't the typical in this game and it may take getting used to, but I manage that expectation by communicating. Let people know what to expect and emotional outbursts are controlled.
This is a game. There are awesome people who play this game from all walks of life. If you treat the players you encounter with some base respect and graciousness you can have a hell of a time.
There are those who don't share these views, and make no mistake, they are entitled to it, but my advice to those who want to only be the best: don't put your level of commitment and dedication to perfection get in the way of potentially having fun.
It comes down to talking to the people on the team and importantly listening to those who obviously see what the problem is.
Sorry for the long post, but it's *** when you have any exclusatory group trying to affect change for the whole.
Of course the best way is to talk, but i was arguing with people who kick because they don't want to "lose their time" and feel entitled to make me loose mine along with my fun. And when I say "mine" it's just an example. I can be the black sheep of the team exactly as anybody, I don't assume that my playstyle is universally compatible with anyone else's and I know i'll have to adjust. That takes some minutes that dps obsessive people dont have apparently.
Having them speak at all before kicking is already the best case scenario.
And generally you are in combat when you realize something is off. So big talk has to wait a bit.
Anyway, people who are confident with their efficiency are overall nice and don't kick others.1 -
WandaMey✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »
Just a question...
Imagine that you got a group and healer says: "Sorry guys, I'm on stamina build and cant really heal, but hey, I got this resto staff so I can spam rapid regen on you" and a tank says "Sorry guys, I dont have any skillpoints for taunts and heavy armor doesnt look good enough on my char, but hey, I can bash". What will you do in this situation?
does it change anything to have the groupdamage addon in that case?
Have you ever seen it really?
I wouldn't say you didn't I've seen it with my own eyes in another game
I asked the tank to taunt because I couldn't survive 3 seconds as the healer, she told me that she didn't want because if she does, all the mobs attack her. I tried to explain nicely that it was the point 15mn long then I had to leave. I didn't kick though.
helpless is helpless, but I've seen it only once in 10 years of mmos.
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Jaeysa✭✭✭✭✭Cool it with the personal attacks, people.
But why i have to assign you anything? And what about the people who dont take kindly any remarks on what they do?
are you sure that it's not the way these remarks are done in cause here? look do you see a difference :
1)- your dps suck + kick
2) Hey blablaname, i see you're new and don't have top gear. could you focus on interrupting everything that come on the healer please?
3) hmmmm just kill the boss's heal bubbles plz don't get in the way
ok? do you see a difference? I'm sure nobody would even take offense on the 3) way either.
Regarding your first point: I'd say it nicer, but I didn't sign up to be a teacher nor to spend 2-3 hours in a pledge. I expect that by the time you're in -Vet- dungeons you know your class/roll. The point of vet dungeons initially was that they weren't face-roll.
Another thing regarding dps-meters: At the moment the only thing we can measure is dps. However, if ZoS decided to support them, in the long run more important things like avoidable damage taken, damage blocked, interrpts, would also be listed. Knowing your group's DPS is cool and useful, but I'm mainly interested in the potential for growth which has been stunted.PC/NA: Primarily Daggerfall Covenant.
Lennie: Breton Sorceror. 9-trait crafter on everything, purveyor of useless frippery.1 -
WandaMey✭✭✭Cool it with the personal attacks, people.
Regarding your first point: I'd say it nicer, but I didn't sign up to be a teacher nor to spend 2-3 hours in a pledge. I expect that by the time you're in -Vet- dungeons you know your class/roll. The point of vet dungeons initially was that they weren't face-roll.
Another thing regarding dps-meters: At the moment the only thing we can measure is dps. However, if ZoS decided to support them, in the long run more important things like avoidable damage taken, damage blocked, interrpts, would also be listed. Knowing your group's DPS is cool and useful, but I'm mainly interested in the potential for growth which has been stunted.
I was answering a guy who was speaking of the group finder tool (he was queueing) for Normal dungeons (he said that plain). Context is all. Like in dungeons.
And no, the API wont allow all these checks over interrupted damages/spared heal, and there's little chance that the engine allows it at all. It's busy enough without processing the damages that haven't occured and computers are no seers to guess if the healer would have healed or let die.0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
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A one-sided decision like this is inevitably going to result in resentment which will sometimes devolve into personal attacks. Basically, one group of people are being punished by having something they like taken away because another group of people doesn't like it. If ZOS wanted avoid the situation, they would have come up with a way avoid punishing anyone by finding some middle ground.Cool it with the personal attacks, people.Edited by timidobserver on January 24, 2016 7:50PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)5 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Like I said, zos marks this game as non competitiveZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »
Personally, I'd like to know WHY you guys came to this decision and hope it was for a technical limitation and not simply......ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
I agree. @ZOS_GinaBruno How about an explanation? I imagine that even those opposed to the add-on would like to know the reasoning behind your decision.
Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others.#MOREORBS11 -
Kyoma✭✭✭Lol, if a dps is comparing himself with a healer or vice versa then they are doing something wrong. Of course a healer wont do as much dps as a dd. What the hell does that attitude have to do with this addon?Will I be able to forget all the wounds that pierce my flesh?
You and your childish justice. I'll rip it to pieces.
Come on, it's showtime. A rain of blood like a volcano
And now I'll blow all of you and you and you...
All to tiny pieces. All to tiny pieces.2 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
Actually, it should read "do not give advice to people who did not ask for it". It is a basic and imho universal rule in communicating with other people in general. May vary depending on cultural background, but practically, it's both a lack of respect and a waste of time. They're not going to follow your "advice" unless they 1) think they need some 2) have acknowledged you as a reliable advice giver.
I understand that some people are shy but c'mon, it's really easy, at least in ESO, to ask someone "I have a build similar to yours, how do you do this or that ?"
I know quite a few people who absolutely refuse to join a guild for fear of hearing advice/orders all the time from everyone. And in my guild, rule of thumb is actually to NOT give advice to anyone who doesn't ask for it. Instead, I encourage everyone to hang out in Teamspeak even if they're not currently running in a group, because they learn a lot by just listening to others running or to their endless theorycrafting conversations.
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I totally get your pov. And I respect that completely. But sadly I don't have the time or patience to wipe at a boss 10 times before someone feels the need to ask for advice. So if I'm left with the alternative of dropping group or kicking said player.
No offence intended. Just my opinion on what goes through my head when there's a really bad player in the group. I try my best to ask them nicely what thyre running in their build and if they need pointers but like you've mentioned some people just don't want anyone interfering with their gameplay. I get that, but that just means imma have to kick you to find someone who can do a better job
Edit: also I'm a little confused here as to what you meant by replacing the word help with advice. In this context they mean the same thing to me. Or are you trying to explain some other scenario which i misunderstood?
In my understanding, A helping B means that A is providing something to B (which B might or might not need, might or might not have asked for, but that doesn't aim at changing B or questioning who he is or the choices he made).
A giving advice to B is not A providing something to B, but trying to *change* B's behaviour so that B doesn't need to be provided with that "something" anymore.
That's why advice is more delicate to deal with than help.
In the context of the game, carrying a teammate through a dungeon is helping. Advising him about his builds or skills is meant to change him (so that he doesn't need to be carried anymore).
I'm not saying that advice is bad, but it is only truly helpful if and only if the person has asked for it, else it is either wasted or just annoying for him.
Also, following "advice" requires effort while accepting help doesn't.
"Help" in general is a touchy subject and it would be impossible to cover it all in here, but I hope you see roughly where I'm getting at.
I understand that you don't want to wipe over and over due to a teammate and that long pledges are frustrating. But how is advice at that stage going to be useful ? The teammate can possibly swap a skill or two, but he's not going to change his habits, get new gear or increase his situational awareness on the spot. Ultimately you're left with two alternatives : carry him through or kick/leave... I didn't want to add yet another debate to this thread but all posters who claimed that GroupDamage would allow them to "help others" made me wonder what they meant concretely...
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If you are not willing or afraid to give advice or suggestions to your guild mates, then you shouldn't be a leader. Nuff said.
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anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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If you are not willing or afraid to give advice or suggestions to your guild mates, then you shouldn't be a leader. Nuff said.
- Someone was asking me about the difference between help and advice. Nothing to do with leading.
- In a LFG-PUG group, nobody is the "leader" and nobody should declare himself as such. The crown doesn't make you a leader.
- Leader or not, giving advice to someone who doesn't want it or thinks he doesn't need it is a waste of time.
How about not commenting outside of context ?
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Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on January 25, 2016 7:57AM1 -
Frenkthevile✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »
Personally, I'd like to know WHY you guys came to this decision and hope it was for a technical limitation and not simply......ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
I agree. @ZOS_GinaBruno How about an explanation? I imagine that even those opposed to the add-on would like to know the reasoning behind your decision.
Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others.
Then let us opt in.
The current method of sharing combat data (without this addon) is, at best, clunky, inaccurate, inefficient, and does not give us real-time data as the fight progresses. This is something that has consistently not been addressed in this thread: There is no good alternative at the moment.
Let us flag our account so that our data can be picked up and analyzed by someone else's GroupDamage, so that they're not relying on me to manually spit out a single number at the end of a fight. So that they can see my numbers as they change during the fight, for all fights. Don't take this away from us and pretend that this is okay because we have adequate alternatives. Because we don't.
+10000 -
Frenkthevile✭✭✭✭If you say ''i'm a DPS'' and you're doing less than 14-15k at vr16, i have the right to kick you, because you're NOT a DPS and that was what i asked for.
Soooo many PUGs pretend to be ''DPS'' just because they're nor heal nor tank...1 -
Islyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Frenkthevile wrote: »If you say ''i'm a DPS'' and you're doing less than 14-15k at vr16, i have the right to kick you, because you're NOT a DPS and that was what i asked for.
Soooo many PUGs pretend to be ''DPS'' just because they're nor heal nor tank...
Decided commenting here was pointless.
Edited by Islyn on January 25, 2016 3:46PM0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Frenkthevile wrote: »If you say ''i'm a DPS'' and you're doing less than 14-15k at vr16, i have the right to kick you, because you're NOT a DPS and that was what i asked for.
Why ? Since all vet dungeons except vICP can be completed with 12K DPS (hell, even 10K for most) why do you ask for 14/15K ?
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Jaeysa✭✭✭✭✭Let us all have a moment of silence for Group Damage and the possibility of others like it.PC/NA: Primarily Daggerfall Covenant.
Lennie: Breton Sorceror. 9-trait crafter on everything, purveyor of useless frippery.3 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
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Like I said, zos marks this game as non competitiveZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »
Personally, I'd like to know WHY you guys came to this decision and hope it was for a technical limitation and not simply......ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
I agree. @ZOS_GinaBruno How about an explanation? I imagine that even those opposed to the add-on would like to know the reasoning behind your decision.
Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others.
Never has been anywhere near a competition game. (meant as a general comment, not as a bad thing)Edited by Woeler on January 25, 2016 4:44PM4 -
Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
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Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]9 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Overload is completely broken, but the add-on is disabled. Mission accomplished.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)2
This discussion has been closed.