Cloak Needs A Nerf

Derra

revonine wrote: »

i never agreed with the sorc nerf i don't agree with this hypothetical nerf either

I never agreed with the sorc nerfs but now i agree with this one because it´s bringing skills back into the same ballpark. *shrug*

Sneaky-Snurr

Lettigall wrote: »

You described problem effecting every stamina build- classes have only few stamina morphs! It's not NB problem alone, Temps have 3 class stamina morphs, DKs 2 morphs and sorcs(about them maybe I'm wrong) 2 morphs. Stop acting like special snowflake!

@Lettigall
What the actual hell? I was speaking on behalf of all the classes but I'm concentrating on NBs more because.. duhh.. this thread is focused on nerfing a NB's, I repeat, NB's skill. Why are you acting so defensive though? Logic out of the window, friend?

To point out, I did say 'I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing ANY skill' and that points out to all the classes available. If you're not sure on what I meant, simply ask. Why flame me for it?

But as expected, the people I've mentioned still couldn't answer my question. No surprises there.

Derra

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

blur wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

People keep saying use AoEs and stealth detect potions. I use these options, but with AoEs I can never guess where the NB has fled off to. Once I use that one AoE and miss, he or she is long gone. Just fyi, I'm using lightning flood. Stealth detect is an option that I've used a few times; though, when I do have a potion to use and utilize the detect potion that NB can run so fast in SC that I may or may not catch him in time.

As an aside, I do think NBs lack survivability in terms of class abilities, but I don't feel like SC should be spammable. Infinite Focused Aim -> SC can really bug a person without ever the chance to find them. Perhaps, ZOS can do a little nerf while giving a slight buff to another skill to help with survivability. I will agree that NB is pretty damn squishy.

thats your problem.

Lightning flood is imo a small range aoe.
Try using caltrops, steel tornado, bombard, lightning form, encase -_-, runes -_-, mines -__-,
impulse, mage light u.u

Seriously cloak doesnt need a nerf (i play a stam sorc).
Aspect of terror (fear) is what needs the nerfing!!!

caltrops - very expensive stamina cost, perfect way to line yourself up for being feared, again
steel tornado - pbaoe that does have a decent range, but if the nb is smart they'll cloak between your attacks and run a direction so that your next attack will miss
bombard - decent range and nice rood/snare, only real weakness is its a cone, so the closer you are to the nb the less they have to move to escape
lightning form - like steel tornado, but without having to spam it, nb's can do exactly the same thing to avoid you
encase like bombard, but doesn't damage and in my own experience is hit or miss in keeping them pinned
runes - requires you to either see the target or be attacked, decent if the nb hits you with a dot, but otherwise kinda meh at that
mines - really?
impulse - same as steel tornado, but less aoe, the dot can help but most nb's don't worry about dots
mage light - have you seen its effective aoe? Seems like it begins and ends on your own characters feet for how much range it has

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

I would express my condolences but since half of the people in this topic now defending nightblades have been arguing against sorcerers who made the same arguments with respect to bolt escape all i can do is laugh at this topic.
You had it coming.
Now the impending nerf gives me a warm feeling and makes me sleep well at night. Just try to view it as karma (because that´s essentially what it is - when they gutted sorcs abilities to get away it was clear that they would do so for every ability enabling someone to get away sooner or later. In the end the forumcryblades are responsible themselves).

This is exactly the problem . Sorc gets nerfed so I'm gonna do my best to get NBS nerfed now. Seen it on every gaming forum ever class wars. It's all b.s.

Nope it´s not ***. That´s the problem. If you start nerfing one ability for one class you can´t just stop halfway through and leave similar options intact for other classes. That´s the problem with nerfing instead of buffing counters.

I´m currently getting my NB ready and pvping on it solo (magica based) and honestly i´m not concerned at all for cloak nerfs. I´ve adapted on my main and i will adapt on this char too.

If you're comparing bolt escape and cloak it's apples and oranges . You bolt and cloaking isn't gonna make me keep up as you disappear over the horizon. You attack me , I cloak and I'm still there albeit invisible. However use a counter and I'm there for all to see right infront of you . Nah the comparable thing we had was bow + dodge + double take + sprint then I could just about chase down a sorc only to fight him out of resources by the time I caught him . That was nerfed in the patch in case you never noticed. Bow dodge and major expedition no longer stack . Just because one skill was unbalanced doesn't mean other skills are.

Strange i´m feeling quite a bit more potent in using cloak + shadow image than i´ve ever felt using bolt escape based on the sheer fact that my enemies are not able to see me and react accordingly.

Also gapclosers. They´re in the same ballpark for countering bolt as using aoe is for cloak (6m range against a class with 65% movementspeed while cloaked - LOL) to counter cloak.

Edit: Ofc i´m arguing from the pov of a magica nb. You can´t take into account stambuilds when balancing a magica ability.

Lettigall wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

blur wrote: »

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

@blur
I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing any skill. :thumbsup:
To be honest, attempting to reason with the ones wanting to nerf the game is just a waste of time and energy hence why I've stopped responding them as they're impossible to reason with. I've found your arguments to be spot on but somehow they fail to comprehend the points you conveyed. You can check out my previous replies to those people in this thread and they come nowhere close to answering my simple questions because they simply don't have one. Most of their arguments are derailed from the essence of the debate and proves to be nonsensical, narrow-scoped and somewhat trivial.

They seem to be extremely rigid as they don't consider how the nerf could affect the class as a whole in regards to a stam and magicka builds which is already restrictive due to the nature that class abilities only have 3 skills scaled off of stam but they leave out stam users' concerns on that. The simple question I asked was something along the lines of 'What's left for NB stam users in terms of utilising class abilities since there are only a mere 3 class abilities that scale off of stamina in the whole class' and without any surprises, they failed to answer that question and proceeded with a quick change of topic.

You described problem effecting every stamina build- classes have only few stamina morphs! It's not NB problem alone, Temps have 3 class stamina morphs, DKs 2 morphs and sorcs(about them maybe I'm wrong) 2 morphs. Stop acting like special snowflake!

But magicka sorc, DKs and Templars are waaaaaaaay stronger that magicka NBs. Magicka NB is strong only when comming from stealth (and the only class burst dmg non ulti they have is Concealed weapon). No cloak, no magicka NBs

edit: I meant DPS magicka NBs. Healers and tanks will be there anyway

WHAT?

Magica NB is insanely good. I have a tooltip of 8k for funnel health (an ability that´s also healing me and costs less than half of any other anytime range dmg) and ~16k for cripple. Magica NB is currently the highest pressure range build in the game (pressure meaning high dps not burst - though i´ve hit for 19.2k with assassins will).

revonine

So once the nerf criers get their way with this one too what do you guys think will be the next on their list to moan about? (honest question)

Sneaky-Snurr

CP5 wrote: »

Great point, but I would like to bring up something I read into in your 2nd paragraph. If you didn't mention NB's explicitly it could easily be taken as a post directed to sorcerer's. And if that and if you didn't mention stamina morphs your post is applicable to many of the nerfs from a year back. Thinking at this point just mass ignoring nerf threads would be the best option, despite the fact that doing that would make it look like a larger portion of the community is focused on nerfing things.

@CP5
To point out, I did mention 'I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing ANY skill' and that's the first line of my response. I however do admit that I should've made it clearer that I was speaking on behalf of all stam builds (or any builds for that matter) of any class as proven by the one-liner I've just mentioned but please ask if something isn't clear. Do not jump into conclusions. I was just focusing on NBs because this thread is pointing fingers toward NBs.
Presumption is a dangerous territory for unwary individuals. Tread lightly.

CP5

revonine wrote: »

So once the nerf criers get their way with this one too what do you guys think will be the next on their list to moan about? (honest question)

Well, unless they find a way to justify nerfing dk's where they are now, and after the hoopla about sorcs recently my bet would somehow be on templars. Somehow... unless they want to nerf bolt escape again. Least the nerf rotations are interesting (Read, hard to predict).

Lettigall

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

You described problem effecting every stamina build- classes have only few stamina morphs! It's not NB problem alone, Temps have 3 class stamina morphs, DKs 2 morphs and sorcs(about them maybe I'm wrong) 2 morphs. Stop acting like special snowflake!

What the actual hell? I was speaking on behalf of all the classes but I'm concentrating on NBs more because.. duhh.. this thread is focused on nerfing a NB's, I repeat, NB's skill. Why are you acting so defensive though? Logic out of the window, friend?

To point out, I did say 'I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing ANY skill' and that points out to all the classes available. If you're not sure on what I meant, simply ask. Why flame me for it?

But as expected, the people I've mentioned still couldn't answer my question. No surprises there.

You used all stamina build problem as argument for defending cloak... Why using lack of stamina morphs in class trees to defend 1 OP ability?

killingspreeb16_ESO

revonine wrote: »

So once the nerf criers get their way with this one too what do you guys think will be the next on their list to moan about? (honest question)

Shield or Heal since both are spammable without penality maybe bolt again since sorc are still spamming it so add more penality!

Sneaky-Snurr

Lettigall wrote: »

You used all stamina build problem as argument for defending cloak... Why using lack of stamina morphs in class trees to defend 1 OP ability?

@Lettigall
Simply because we can't utilise the whole class abilities. Why? It's because our damage/healing output would suffer terribly due to the magicka-driven class abilities. Hence, if all class abilities are scaled off of magicka (like they were at launch), people would be running with robes and sticks to harness the strength of magicka scaled abilities in class skill tree and no one would bother much with full medium armour sets.This case is actually prevalent at launch as very few run stam builds and full medium armour because the strength of class abilities are tied with magicka. Not stam.

The whole point of my argument is that the game would be unbalanced with magicka builds typically overpowering their stam counterparts like how they did at launch thus, The Elder Sticks and Robes Online was born. It was extremely restrictive as people HAVE to roll a magicka build to be able to be competitive in PvP as a whole and PvE to a certain extent.

Plus, this is getting tiring. Please read my previous responses as to have a clearer understanding on why nerfing Cloak or any other class abilities isn't the way to go to fix balance issues in the game.

I've compiled the responses I've made in this thread to make things easier for you so no need to look for my post from one post to another. (* marks the prominent ones you should read on but you are more than welcomed to read the ones not marked to have a thorough understanding from where I'm coming from):
372 p13
376 p13 *
381 p13
433 p15
478 p16 *
486 p17 *
489 p17 *
495 p17 *
562 p19 *
573 p20
576 p20

cc: @ZOS_GinaBruno
Please ask the Devs to reconsider, Gina.

Lava_Croft

Lettigall wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

blur wrote: »

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

@blur
I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing any skill. :thumbsup:
To be honest, attempting to reason with the ones wanting to nerf the game is just a waste of time and energy hence why I've stopped responding them as they're impossible to reason with. I've found your arguments to be spot on but somehow they fail to comprehend the points you conveyed. You can check out my previous replies to those people in this thread and they come nowhere close to answering my simple questions because they simply don't have one. Most of their arguments are derailed from the essence of the debate and proves to be nonsensical, narrow-scoped and somewhat trivial.

They seem to be extremely rigid as they don't consider how the nerf could affect the class as a whole in regards to a stam and magicka builds which is already restrictive due to the nature that class abilities only have 3 skills scaled off of stam but they leave out stam users' concerns on that. The simple question I asked was something along the lines of 'What's left for NB stam users in terms of utilising class abilities since there are only a mere 3 class abilities that scale off of stamina in the whole class' and without any surprises, they failed to answer that question and proceeded with a quick change of topic.

You described problem effecting every stamina build- classes have only few stamina morphs! It's not NB problem alone, Temps have 3 class stamina morphs, DKs 2 morphs and sorcs(about them maybe I'm wrong) 2 morphs. Stop acting like special snowflake!

Then again, Stamina users have access to 4 of the 6 weapon skill lines.

vamp_emily

I am just curious, was there any counters for the Sorc Bolt Escape? ( Before It got nerfed )

Cathexis

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Thank you for acknowledging the problem. ^_^

However, the number of times this can be cast in a row isn't the only problem -- players can also effectively shadowcloak through mobs as soon as they are being countered. This poses a problem because pursuing players then have to not only fight a nightblade who can cloak out of all damage, but also fight mobs at the same time. This means that 95% of the time nightblades can escape at will in the imperial city.

I've also been in 5v1 situations with some nightblades where they effectively avoid all damage for 4+ minutes while the 5 of us are spamming counters continually. Factor in the fact that shadow cloak only lasts for what like 4 seconds, that means players are only losing 2 ticks of magicka regen when they cast + the cast cost. When you think about it that way and compare its strategic advantage, its not much of a penalty.

Master_Kas

Derra wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The whole game favoring magica classes has always been a problem. Your other question you can answer yourself by answering the following:
Streak has never been a problem on stamina sorcerers. As of now the ability has been nerfed 6 times despite not being a problem on stamina sorcerers. Why do you think that has happened? It´s the same answer for cloak.

Edit: I´m not stating this is NOT restrictive. It´s just how zenimax is (and has to) approach balancing in their opinion overperforming skills.

Edit2: This is also only true for skills where "spamming" gives a destinct advantage. Shield buffs / toggles and other long duration effects don´t fall in that catigory.

@Derra
If the whole game is already restrictive like what you said, why restrict it even further? I don't get your logic, you are of the opinion that nerfing Cloak won't be a problem for stam NBs but you also agreed that it is restrictive. What's your goal here because you're contradicting yourself.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on Edit 2 though. However, I'd like to point out that shields are always spammed. For example, a player runs out of shield from taking massive hits in 4 seconds and they spam it over and over again just to keep it up. I have no problems with it though as I'm just stating that people actually do spam shields.

I don´t think you understand what i´m trying to say. I´ll try to explain it:

Streak was overpowered on magica sorcerers and was therefor rightfully nerfed. Nobody cared about stamina sorcerers use of the skill because it was causing a problem when utilized in an optimal scenario (that being magica).

Cloak is in a similar situation for magica nightblades like streak used to be for magica sorcerers. Therefor it will get nerfed until the use of cloak from magica nightblades is in the level of where zenimax wants it to be.
They simply can´t balance the skill for stamina and magica builds both and because the skill is problematic with magica builds it will be balanced in this respect.

This leaves stamina in the dirt but because of how the whole game is working that´s sadly how zos has to go about it.

I don´t think cloak is that much of a problem on stamina nightblades currently but they can´t balance for stamina nightblades but HAVE to balance for the case where a magica nightblade is using the skill.

Tbh cloak is not like streak/BE/BOL. Doesn't teleport you and stun everyone close to you wh

Derra wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Ladies and Gents i give you every skill in game to counter cloak... by shameless advertising

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219654/to-those-who-think-dark-cloak-needs-a-nerf/p1

Thank you kind sir! I´ve not laughed that hard for like two or three days and I´m quite a happy person.

Laughing? Most of those skills work, there are even some single target skills that work Curse, reapply everytime it explodes. All he can do is try to run away.

Lettigall

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

blur wrote: »

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

@blur
I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing any skill. :thumbsup:
To be honest, attempting to reason with the ones wanting to nerf the game is just a waste of time and energy hence why I've stopped responding them as they're impossible to reason with. I've found your arguments to be spot on but somehow they fail to comprehend the points you conveyed. You can check out my previous replies to those people in this thread and they come nowhere close to answering my simple questions because they simply don't have one. Most of their arguments are derailed from the essence of the debate and proves to be nonsensical, narrow-scoped and somewhat trivial.

They seem to be extremely rigid as they don't consider how the nerf could affect the class as a whole in regards to a stam and magicka builds which is already restrictive due to the nature that class abilities only have 3 skills scaled off of stam but they leave out stam users' concerns on that. The simple question I asked was something along the lines of 'What's left for NB stam users in terms of utilising class abilities since there are only a mere 3 class abilities that scale off of stamina in the whole class' and without any surprises, they failed to answer that question and proceeded with a quick change of topic.

You described problem effecting every stamina build- classes have only few stamina morphs! It's not NB problem alone, Temps have 3 class stamina morphs, DKs 2 morphs and sorcs(about them maybe I'm wrong) 2 morphs. Stop acting like special snowflake!

Then again, Stamina users have access to 4 of the 6 weapon skill lines.

Yes and it's still not an argument why keep some on class magicka skill op!

revonine

Look this issue with cloak has only came about since IC because of all the mobs and allows a NB an easier time navigating the sewers. There was zero issue with this ability when the only PvP was Cyrodill so don't pretend the ability was always OP don't allow the criers to fool you with that crap.
Okay I admit I've an easier time getting around in the DLC but any future changes will completely gimp the magicka based version of this class for any future content. We have no shielding or burst heals innate to the class how the hell are we suppose to defend ourselves? Switch to stamina and run sword and board probably.
Other DLC's may favor another class so we'll just have to cry nerf on those when the time comes too right? For the love of all that's holy think of the bigger picture here this cycle will never end otherwise
EDIT: and it's already started with threads like" heals need a nerf" or "is anything going to be done about biting jabs".

vamp_emily wrote: »

I am just curious, was there any counters for the Sorc Bolt Escape? ( Before It got nerfed )

Not really bar spamming gap closers, people just got annoyed when sorcs used an ability with escape in it's name to...escape.

Ebonheart1111

*throws a sissy purple crystal at OP*

PainfulFAFA

CP5 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

People keep saying use AoEs and stealth detect potions. I use these options, but with AoEs I can never guess where the NB has fled off to. Once I use that one AoE and miss, he or she is long gone. Just fyi, I'm using lightning flood. Stealth detect is an option that I've used a few times; though, when I do have a potion to use and utilize the detect potion that NB can run so fast in SC that I may or may not catch him in time.

As an aside, I do think NBs lack survivability in terms of class abilities, but I don't feel like SC should be spammable. Infinite Focused Aim -> SC can really bug a person without ever the chance to find them. Perhaps, ZOS can do a little nerf while giving a slight buff to another skill to help with survivability. I will agree that NB is pretty damn squishy.

thats your problem.

Lightning flood is imo a small range aoe.
Try using caltrops, steel tornado, bombard, lightning form, encase -_-, runes -_-, mines -__-,
impulse, mage light u.u

Seriously cloak doesnt need a nerf (i play a stam sorc).
Aspect of terror (fear) is what needs the nerfing!!!

caltrops - very expensive stamina cost, perfect way to line yourself up for being feared, again
steel tornado - pbaoe that does have a decent range, but if the nb is smart they'll cloak between your attacks and run a direction so that your next attack will miss
bombard - decent range and nice rood/snare, only real weakness is its a cone, so the closer you are to the nb the less they have to move to escape
lightning form - like steel tornado, but without having to spam it, nb's can do exactly the same thing to avoid you
encase like bombard, but doesn't damage and in my own experience is hit or miss in keeping them pinned
runes - requires you to either see the target or be attacked, decent if the nb hits you with a dot, but otherwise kinda meh at that
mines - really?
impulse - same as steel tornado, but less aoe, the dot can help but most nb's don't worry about dots
mage light - have you seen its effective aoe? Seems like it begins and ends on your own characters feet for how much range it has

Really mines what? If you're a magicka sorc and using mines those NBs are gonna take massive dps if they risk attacking you while being immobilized... thats when you dps them. Not a hard concept.

Radiant Magelight offers the 50% damage reduct for stealth attacks. What else is there to say lol? That NB's 15k surprise attack will become 7k. Refresh shields and you're gtg....

You have valid points for everything else but then again thats where SKILL takes place.
Like i said i have no problem with cloaks its the damn Aspect of Terror (fear) that almost always determines the fight.
That one cc break might cost you the entire fight. But then again NOT CC breaking might cost you the fight as well.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Derra wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

blur wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

People keep saying use AoEs and stealth detect potions. I use these options, but with AoEs I can never guess where the NB has fled off to. Once I use that one AoE and miss, he or she is long gone. Just fyi, I'm using lightning flood. Stealth detect is an option that I've used a few times; though, when I do have a potion to use and utilize the detect potion that NB can run so fast in SC that I may or may not catch him in time.

As an aside, I do think NBs lack survivability in terms of class abilities, but I don't feel like SC should be spammable. Infinite Focused Aim -> SC can really bug a person without ever the chance to find them. Perhaps, ZOS can do a little nerf while giving a slight buff to another skill to help with survivability. I will agree that NB is pretty damn squishy.

thats your problem.

Lightning flood is imo a small range aoe.
Try using caltrops, steel tornado, bombard, lightning form, encase -_-, runes -_-, mines -__-,
impulse, mage light u.u

Seriously cloak doesnt need a nerf (i play a stam sorc).
Aspect of terror (fear) is what needs the nerfing!!!

caltrops - very expensive stamina cost, perfect way to line yourself up for being feared, again
steel tornado - pbaoe that does have a decent range, but if the nb is smart they'll cloak between your attacks and run a direction so that your next attack will miss
bombard - decent range and nice rood/snare, only real weakness is its a cone, so the closer you are to the nb the less they have to move to escape
lightning form - like steel tornado, but without having to spam it, nb's can do exactly the same thing to avoid you
encase like bombard, but doesn't damage and in my own experience is hit or miss in keeping them pinned
runes - requires you to either see the target or be attacked, decent if the nb hits you with a dot, but otherwise kinda meh at that
mines - really?
impulse - same as steel tornado, but less aoe, the dot can help but most nb's don't worry about dots
mage light - have you seen its effective aoe? Seems like it begins and ends on your own characters feet for how much range it has

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

I would express my condolences but since half of the people in this topic now defending nightblades have been arguing against sorcerers who made the same arguments with respect to bolt escape all i can do is laugh at this topic.
You had it coming.
Now the impending nerf gives me a warm feeling and makes me sleep well at night. Just try to view it as karma (because that´s essentially what it is - when they gutted sorcs abilities to get away it was clear that they would do so for every ability enabling someone to get away sooner or later. In the end the forumcryblades are responsible themselves).

This is exactly the problem . Sorc gets nerfed so I'm gonna do my best to get NBS nerfed now. Seen it on every gaming forum ever class wars. It's all b.s.

Nope it´s not ***. That´s the problem. If you start nerfing one ability for one class you can´t just stop halfway through and leave similar options intact for other classes. That´s the problem with nerfing instead of buffing counters.

I´m currently getting my NB ready and pvping on it solo (magica based) and honestly i´m not concerned at all for cloak nerfs. I´ve adapted on my main and i will adapt on this char too.

If you're comparing bolt escape and cloak it's apples and oranges . You bolt and cloaking isn't gonna make me keep up as you disappear over the horizon. You attack me , I cloak and I'm still there albeit invisible. However use a counter and I'm there for all to see right infront of you . Nah the comparable thing we had was bow + dodge + double take + sprint then I could just about chase down a sorc only to fight him out of resources by the time I caught him . That was nerfed in the patch in case you never noticed. Bow dodge and major expedition no longer stack . Just because one skill was unbalanced doesn't mean other skills are.

Strange i´m feeling quite a bit more potent in using cloak + shadow image than i´ve ever felt using bolt escape based on the sheer fact that my enemies are not able to see me and react accordingly.

Also gapclosers. They´re in the same ballpark for countering bolt as using aoe is for cloak (6m range against a class with 65% movementspeed while cloaked - LOL) to counter cloak.

Edit: Ofc i´m arguing from the pov of a magica nb. You can´t take into account stambuilds when balancing a magica ability.

Lettigall wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

blur wrote: »

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

@blur
I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing any skill. :thumbsup:
To be honest, attempting to reason with the ones wanting to nerf the game is just a waste of time and energy hence why I've stopped responding them as they're impossible to reason with. I've found your arguments to be spot on but somehow they fail to comprehend the points you conveyed. You can check out my previous replies to those people in this thread and they come nowhere close to answering my simple questions because they simply don't have one. Most of their arguments are derailed from the essence of the debate and proves to be nonsensical, narrow-scoped and somewhat trivial.

They seem to be extremely rigid as they don't consider how the nerf could affect the class as a whole in regards to a stam and magicka builds which is already restrictive due to the nature that class abilities only have 3 skills scaled off of stam but they leave out stam users' concerns on that. The simple question I asked was something along the lines of 'What's left for NB stam users in terms of utilising class abilities since there are only a mere 3 class abilities that scale off of stamina in the whole class' and without any surprises, they failed to answer that question and proceeded with a quick change of topic.

You described problem effecting every stamina build- classes have only few stamina morphs! It's not NB problem alone, Temps have 3 class stamina morphs, DKs 2 morphs and sorcs(about them maybe I'm wrong) 2 morphs. Stop acting like special snowflake!

But magicka sorc, DKs and Templars are waaaaaaaay stronger that magicka NBs. Magicka NB is strong only when comming from stealth (and the only class burst dmg non ulti they have is Concealed weapon). No cloak, no magicka NBs

edit: I meant DPS magicka NBs. Healers and tanks will be there anyway

WHAT?

Magica NB is insanely good. I have a tooltip of 8k for funnel health (an ability that´s also healing me and costs less than half of any other anytime range dmg) and ~16k for cripple. Magica NB is currently the highest pressure range build in the game (pressure meaning high dps not burst - though i´ve hit for 19.2k with assassins will).

I have many, many experiences of a sorcs shield/shields absorbing almost 90% of anything a magicka NB can cast at them.

A DK using reflective scales will reflect funnel health, cripple and maybe even assassin's will and depending on which morph....you've just been one shot by your own assassin's will.

Templars suck......but can heal themselves like they were the games natural healers. Or if they are stamina they will heal up and then come at you with a jabs or wrecking blow spam.

You could say that these things aren't true every time but then again does every magicka NB escape or kill you every time with their cloak ability? Is cloak OP? I say Piercing mark is OP and I love it.

PainfulFAFA

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

blur wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

People keep saying use AoEs and stealth detect potions. I use these options, but with AoEs I can never guess where the NB has fled off to. Once I use that one AoE and miss, he or she is long gone. Just fyi, I'm using lightning flood. Stealth detect is an option that I've used a few times; though, when I do have a potion to use and utilize the detect potion that NB can run so fast in SC that I may or may not catch him in time.

As an aside, I do think NBs lack survivability in terms of class abilities, but I don't feel like SC should be spammable. Infinite Focused Aim -> SC can really bug a person without ever the chance to find them. Perhaps, ZOS can do a little nerf while giving a slight buff to another skill to help with survivability. I will agree that NB is pretty damn squishy.

thats your problem.

Lightning flood is imo a small range aoe.
Try using caltrops, steel tornado, bombard, lightning form, encase -_-, runes -_-, mines -__-,
impulse, mage light u.u

Seriously cloak doesnt need a nerf (i play a stam sorc).
Aspect of terror (fear) is what needs the nerfing!!!

caltrops - very expensive stamina cost, perfect way to line yourself up for being feared, again
steel tornado - pbaoe that does have a decent range, but if the nb is smart they'll cloak between your attacks and run a direction so that your next attack will miss
bombard - decent range and nice rood/snare, only real weakness is its a cone, so the closer you are to the nb the less they have to move to escape
lightning form - like steel tornado, but without having to spam it, nb's can do exactly the same thing to avoid you
encase like bombard, but doesn't damage and in my own experience is hit or miss in keeping them pinned
runes - requires you to either see the target or be attacked, decent if the nb hits you with a dot, but otherwise kinda meh at that
mines - really?
impulse - same as steel tornado, but less aoe, the dot can help but most nb's don't worry about dots
mage light - have you seen its effective aoe? Seems like it begins and ends on your own characters feet for how much range it has

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

I would express my condolences but since half of the people in this topic now defending nightblades have been arguing against sorcerers who made the same arguments with respect to bolt escape all i can do is laugh at this topic.
You had it coming.
Now the impending nerf gives me a warm feeling and makes me sleep well at night. Just try to view it as karma (because that´s essentially what it is - when they gutted sorcs abilities to get away it was clear that they would do so for every ability enabling someone to get away sooner or later. In the end the forumcryblades are responsible themselves).

This is exactly the problem . Sorc gets nerfed so I'm gonna do my best to get NBS nerfed now. Seen it on every gaming forum ever class wars. It's all b.s.

Nope it´s not ***. That´s the problem. If you start nerfing one ability for one class you can´t just stop halfway through and leave similar options intact for other classes. That´s the problem with nerfing instead of buffing counters.

I´m currently getting my NB ready and pvping on it solo (magica based) and honestly i´m not concerned at all for cloak nerfs. I´ve adapted on my main and i will adapt on this char too.

If you're comparing bolt escape and cloak it's apples and oranges . You bolt and cloaking isn't gonna make me keep up as you disappear over the horizon. You attack me , I cloak and I'm still there albeit invisible. However use a counter and I'm there for all to see right infront of you . Nah the comparable thing we had was bow + dodge + double take + sprint then I could just about chase down a sorc only to fight him out of resources by the time I caught him . That was nerfed in the patch in case you never noticed. Bow dodge and major expedition no longer stack . Just because one skill was unbalanced doesn't mean other skills are.

Strange i´m feeling quite a bit more potent in using cloak + shadow image than i´ve ever felt using bolt escape based on the sheer fact that my enemies are not able to see me and react accordingly.

Also gapclosers. They´re in the same ballpark for countering bolt as using aoe is for cloak (6m range against a class with 65% movementspeed while cloaked - LOL) to counter cloak.

Edit: Ofc i´m arguing from the pov of a magica nb. You can´t take into account stambuilds when balancing a magica ability.

Lettigall wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

blur wrote: »

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

@blur
I thank you for expressing the point of view of not nerfing any skill. :thumbsup:
To be honest, attempting to reason with the ones wanting to nerf the game is just a waste of time and energy hence why I've stopped responding them as they're impossible to reason with. I've found your arguments to be spot on but somehow they fail to comprehend the points you conveyed. You can check out my previous replies to those people in this thread and they come nowhere close to answering my simple questions because they simply don't have one. Most of their arguments are derailed from the essence of the debate and proves to be nonsensical, narrow-scoped and somewhat trivial.

They seem to be extremely rigid as they don't consider how the nerf could affect the class as a whole in regards to a stam and magicka builds which is already restrictive due to the nature that class abilities only have 3 skills scaled off of stam but they leave out stam users' concerns on that. The simple question I asked was something along the lines of 'What's left for NB stam users in terms of utilising class abilities since there are only a mere 3 class abilities that scale off of stamina in the whole class' and without any surprises, they failed to answer that question and proceeded with a quick change of topic.

You described problem effecting every stamina build- classes have only few stamina morphs! It's not NB problem alone, Temps have 3 class stamina morphs, DKs 2 morphs and sorcs(about them maybe I'm wrong) 2 morphs. Stop acting like special snowflake!

But magicka sorc, DKs and Templars are waaaaaaaay stronger that magicka NBs. Magicka NB is strong only when comming from stealth (and the only class burst dmg non ulti they have is Concealed weapon). No cloak, no magicka NBs

edit: I meant DPS magicka NBs. Healers and tanks will be there anyway

WHAT?

Magica NB is insanely good. I have a tooltip of 8k for funnel health (an ability that´s also healing me and costs less than half of any other anytime range dmg) and ~16k for cripple. Magica NB is currently the highest pressure range build in the game (pressure meaning high dps not burst - though i´ve hit for 19.2k with assassins will).

I have many, many experiences of a sorcs shield/shields absorbing almost 90% of anything a magicka NB can cast at them.

A DK using reflective scales will reflect funnel health, cripple and maybe even assassin's will and depending on which morph....you've just been one shot by your own assassin's will.

Templars suck......but can heal themselves like they were the games natural healers. Or if they are stamina they will heal up and then come at you with a jabs or wrecking blow spam.

You could say that these things aren't true every time but then again does every magicka NB escape or kill you every time with their cloak ability? Is cloak OP? I say Piercing mark is OP and I love it.

Sun shield. nuff said.

ToRelax

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Ladies and Gents i give you every skill in game to counter cloak... by shameless advertising

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219654/to-those-who-think-dark-cloak-needs-a-nerf/p1

Thank you kind sir! I´ve not laughed that hard for like two or three days and I´m quite a happy person.

Laughing? Most of those skills work, there are even some single target skills that work Curse, reapply everytime it explodes. All he can do is try to run away.

It is possible for these skills to pull a NB out of Cloak, but that's it. I mean the last thing I would do when a NB goes into Cloak is start an Overload heavy attack.

revonine

Can confirm that DK flappy wings reflects Assassins Will and it damn near got me killed too.

Rayste

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

Non- NB's always complain that "NB can pick the fight when they want" etc, but they forget every class can stealth and hide and pick the fight they want.

Master_Kas wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

@DeanTheCat Look at some comments after this was posted. I plan to abuse my shieldbreaker as much as possible, or my shieldspamming sorc. Probably both

@Master_Kas: I read (almost) every thread on the forums so I saw the posts. I don't really care either way. This change only means that I substitute my Essences of Magicka with cheap Nirnroot + Blue Entoloma infusions. I'll still achieve the same end result. I don't have much Magicka regen to begin with anyway.

... Though I don't think Kris would be too happy about it. He spends more time in cloak then out.

Yes pots will help, but if you have low magicka regen it will be even lower with this change. Magicka nightblades will still be able to spam it alot more. This is worse for stamina nbs than magicka ones imo. :P

Ah yes Kris, wonder what he thinks about this.

If magicka regeneration is a bit lower, you can still drink magicka potions to keep magicka up. I think in the end people will have found other builds to keep unlimited cloaking. I don't see what the issue is. As long as the cloak, they don't attack. And a detect potion or caltrops it's just like they never cloaked.

Yesterday in IC I was chased by a group of angry EP because I killed one dude and got 800 TV. I cloaked once. I just used charging manouvres for CC immunity and run of. Cloaked once near a splitting so they didn't know which way I was going. going, going gone.

It's not unlimited cloak they cry about. They say it is, but they just angry if any NB gets away. Whether you cloak once or 10 times.

I know how to have better success in getting away. I also have tons of magicka pots, cost reduction and magicka regen even as a stamina nightblade thanks to gear and championpoints. Thing is alot of newer players don't use regen drinks nor have tons of champ points nor the experience on how to use it properly. They will get wrecked even easier and will probably leave the game thanks to no means to defend themselves. But then again this applies to most new players facing properly geared V16's with alot of champ points. And with the way things are going, do we really need less players?

This will affect stamina nightblades way more than magicka ones. You cannot disagree on that.

Thing is everything keeps getting nerfed, it's the way ZOS wants to handle things. So be it. Just can't justify nerfing a skill which is a class main defense, which already have tons of counters which can render it useless. (Not saying it's useless, but it can be made useless by multiple skills + pots)

All right, someone has got to put a stop to this.

Not to single you out, but really, think of the new players? How about those new players who rolled a DK? Where were all you NB forum warriors claiming nerfs were bad for the game and L2P issues when their class has been absolutely eviscerated over the past year?

"Just can't justify nerfing a skill which is a class main defense" this is total BS. DK reflective scales rings a bell? Hey, it ain't a NB skill, bring on the nerfbat. Where where these sentiments when Templars pointed out their signature defensive skill got hit with the nerfbat? How would NBs like it if ZoS came out and said cloak only works against single targets and you can only have one active? Think that was a bit excessive, right? Want a counter to Eclipse, just fricking CC break...there, no more eclipses thrown against you for 8 seconds. None of you have to look like an idiot spamming AoEs into empty air and waste a slot using the awful revealing flare skill.

At least be honest. Say that since you have to put up with sorcerers and their stupid OP shields you don't want to lose cloak and you don't give a rat's a** about how other classes get nerfed.

I never once asked for any nerfs to wings because I didn't use projectiles vs them . Nor for templars. Only thing I wanted nerf for is sorcerers shieldspamming.

We need more players not less.

" "Just can't justify nerfing a skill which is a class main defense" this is total BS"

This is not total BS. A nb without cloak is ***, he can try rolling around but without cloak to reset the timer he is dead in most cases.

The hatred you have for the NB class shines brightly all over your post btw. You trying to tell me that YOU care about the NB class? Doesn't seem like it

Edit: I got this forum account towards the later half of 1.6, so wasn't around before that in the forums. What other's say and do not say, I cant control nor does it mean that I agree with what other nightblades write just because I main a nightblade too.

Seems to me you seeing this as getting even, since DK's got nerfed NBs shall get nerfed too? With that mentality this game is just going to lead to more nerfs until everything is equally useless.

Find me a post where I say nerf dks/wings/templars/bolt escape. You wont. So go pick on someone else.

Umm, I play a NB. I don't hate them. I didn't say you asked for nerfs to the other classes. I said you didn't care when they got nerfed. This makes your whole nerfs-are-bad-for-the-game assertion hollow because you only feel that way when it applies to NBs. In the DK talons nerf thread, this was the only thing you had to say to a thoughtful post why the change should be reverted:

"Wrong about crippling grasp. The root is blockable and reflectable."

For that to be the only thing to say to a well thought out and thorough post demonstrates your apathy. And yet, you can post this with a straight face:

"With that mentality this game is just going to lead to more nerfs until everything is equally useless."

I see the time to stand up against nerfing is when the NB is under threat, but when DKs are under fire (at the same time) your only contribution is to make sure the ESO community was not misinformed about a NB skill.

Which is fine, what 90% of fourmites do. But don't dishonestly hide behind the veil of impartiality, claim to be saving new players, or try to justify your position for the good of the entire game. Just say you are tired of dealing with sorcerers and their OP shields who also use selfish logic to preserve their OP status or need a skill the reliable allows to avoid templar spamming their stupid OP biting jabs skill.

Unlike you, I actually do care for all classes. Check my post history. I play a sorc and am one of the few people who publicly admit the ability to stack everything into magicka for offense, defense, and maneuverability is too strong. NBs thought I was insightful and impartial then. I play a templar. While my fellow templars will have you believe the class sucks, I will tell instead say while many of their skills are impractical and frustrating, there is nothing scarier at this moment than a biting jabs templar: it heals, damages, aoe, and CCs. it is a very strong class right now since they meta has moved away from the main thing templars suck at, burst damage. I play a NB. I in this thread, I have NOT articulated a position or agreed with the poster. All I have done was spotlight hollow and self-serving commentary.

So, no, you are wrong about "getting even" and "hating NBs." You only think I am this way because your perspective and priority are not for the overall health of the game like you claim, rather the maintenance of the power for the class that you play. You are so passionate that you felt the need to use language the triggered the profanity filter just to make your point.

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

Hi @ZOS_GinaBruno ,

I doubt that my comment on page 16 in a thread will be read, let alone heeded, but here is my take.

The problem is not cloak. It is an annoying ability for sure and every time a NB ever claims it is useless, broken, or that they don't put it on their bars, we all just need to direct them to this thread where they are fanatically defending it. It is quite clear from the NBs themselves that this ability is very strong, a defining feature of their class. Yet it serves a legitimate function that is needed in the game.

Where NBs lose me is their insistence that there are many counters to cloak. While strictly true, this is very misleading because most of these counters are unreliable, inefficient, inconvenient and sometimes self-defeating. Gina, I have PvPed enough to have three characters that are the colonel rank and I never once seen the flare ability reveal a nightblade. I have no idea what the sound effect is if it stealther is actually revealed. Now, we have to consider two possibilities. One, everyone who I have ever seen PvP is a dunce for not figuring out how to successfully use this skill. Two, the skill isn't any good. Hmmm....

NBs, have you ever contemplated the reason we use detect pots is because your class has the only good skill to actually hunt you down if you cloak?. I know you would rather us to spamming AoEs or use Radiant Mage-Light. This might come as a surprise, but some of us do know how to play and have come to the conclusion that detect pots are better and certainly more versatile options for overall performance in Cyrodiil. Trust me, we do *not* want to use our potion cooldown just to find you. We much rather save that resource for a tri-pot because if we run out of stamina against you, we are dead.

The best solution is to give players better abilities to offensively counter cloak. NBs don't want a nerf. Win. Nobody wants detect potions to the default counter. Win. Non-NBs want to be able to hunt down cloaking NBs. Win. Everybody is happy.

This is supposed to be the niche for the Flare skill. It is terrible. It is outrageously expensive, serves zero purpose aside from its narrow function, and I'm not even sure it actually can do its function: the skill say it reveals stealthed enemies, which is not the same as invisible enemies (aside from the damage morph being nearly pointless. A NB cloaks away the damage and is not revealed by the skill). Why why why would my templar ever slot this instead of Blazing Spear?

Now, where is my detect pot?

Well said.

Rayste

coolermh wrote: »

Put mark target on assault skill tree at rank 10 where vigor was. Replace mark with a good self heal. Cloak becomes less of a problem

Great idea also. This has my vote.

revonine

Rayste wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Put mark target on assault skill tree at rank 10 where vigor was. Replace mark with a good self heal. Cloak becomes less of a problem

Great idea also. This has my vote.

Whoah yanno I actually would trade mark target for a self heal. Agreed.

xaraan

Knootewoot wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

.

Knootewoot wrote: »

Meh, after some testing yesterday with some NB's and some other people we found:


In IC if you are pure magicka NB and you attack someone. One time caltrops is dropped, NB=dead (outa stamina and cloak no worky)

If stamblade: Casts retreating or charging manouvres for cc immunity and runs of. Cloaks maybe once and mosty not at all.

Really, I serious doubt cloak is OP in IC. There might be NB's escaping but just a few. With our caltrop nets we caught almost all magicka NB's. Due to the tight corners and small rooms there was no escape. Caltrops + silence is even more fun since it rendered the magicka NB useless.

Even if they got away cloaking they where not near enough to attack or gank so who cares.

Only stamblades could attack and escape and only because of their stamina pool. retreating manouvres or shuffle, or (limited) dodge roll.

Really @ZOS.. be carefull with the nerf. You might end up in a downwards spiral of nerfing after every forum whine.


Nerf Sorc, Buff bows

You ran out of stamina and didn't get away with Shadow Image? I am pretty sure there are more than a few NBs who would have survived that. Further, who cares wether they can attack me, unless they use shieldbreaker, most likely I survive anyway. That they can get away is what upsets so many players.

No. I did not run out of stamina because I am a stamblade. I don't need cloak. I cast manouvres and just run of. Because it is not cloak that makes the NB escape alone. It is a combination of skills.

Caltrops? Cast manouvres and run and only cloak once. works not on magicka NB because they don't have much stamina.

Magcika NB's are fast if in combination with Vampire+concealed weapon + cloak (and double take). But in caltrops they dont get far. Shadow image? Not everybody has this and also fails if to far out of range.

If people are upset NB's get away, then don't look at cloak. Because it can be countered and many NB use other skills to get away and cloak maybe once or twice. Nerfing it won't change a bit in NB's escaping. Because most don't spam it constantly.

This right here. If someone counters my cloak on my magicka NB build, by the time I realize that cloak isn't working for me, they've already started to tear into me and I'm usually in trouble if they know what they are doing. I have less mitigation in light armor and I'm playing with a gimped bar b/c several skills revolve around keeping that escape viable, so when it gets countered, it usually means trouble for me.

Domander

Derra wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

blur wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

People keep saying use AoEs and stealth detect potions. I use these options, but with AoEs I can never guess where the NB has fled off to. Once I use that one AoE and miss, he or she is long gone. Just fyi, I'm using lightning flood. Stealth detect is an option that I've used a few times; though, when I do have a potion to use and utilize the detect potion that NB can run so fast in SC that I may or may not catch him in time.

As an aside, I do think NBs lack survivability in terms of class abilities, but I don't feel like SC should be spammable. Infinite Focused Aim -> SC can really bug a person without ever the chance to find them. Perhaps, ZOS can do a little nerf while giving a slight buff to another skill to help with survivability. I will agree that NB is pretty damn squishy.

thats your problem.

Lightning flood is imo a small range aoe.
Try using caltrops, steel tornado, bombard, lightning form, encase -_-, runes -_-, mines -__-,
impulse, mage light u.u

Seriously cloak doesnt need a nerf (i play a stam sorc).
Aspect of terror (fear) is what needs the nerfing!!!

caltrops - very expensive stamina cost, perfect way to line yourself up for being feared, again
steel tornado - pbaoe that does have a decent range, but if the nb is smart they'll cloak between your attacks and run a direction so that your next attack will miss
bombard - decent range and nice rood/snare, only real weakness is its a cone, so the closer you are to the nb the less they have to move to escape
lightning form - like steel tornado, but without having to spam it, nb's can do exactly the same thing to avoid you
encase like bombard, but doesn't damage and in my own experience is hit or miss in keeping them pinned
runes - requires you to either see the target or be attacked, decent if the nb hits you with a dot, but otherwise kinda meh at that
mines - really?
impulse - same as steel tornado, but less aoe, the dot can help but most nb's don't worry about dots
mage light - have you seen its effective aoe? Seems like it begins and ends on your own characters feet for how much range it has

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

I would express my condolences but since half of the people in this topic now defending nightblades have been arguing against sorcerers who made the same arguments with respect to bolt escape all i can do is laugh at this topic.
You had it coming.
Now the impending nerf gives me a warm feeling and makes me sleep well at night. Just try to view it as karma (because that´s essentially what it is - when they gutted sorcs abilities to get away it was clear that they would do so for every ability enabling someone to get away sooner or later. In the end the forumcryblades are responsible themselves).

Listen to this ZOS, attitudes like this are the real problem.

Nope not at all. It started with nerfs to bolt escape. Now cloak has to follow for the sake of Balance. You can´t nerf one ability without touching the other. Essentially the argument to not nerf cloak are the same to not nerf bolt escape.
Either you agree that bolt escape nerfs were not warranted and should be reverted or bolt escape was indeed op and the same holds true for cloak then.

Edit: Well now that i think about it - actually attitudes like this are the real problem. The funny thing is with this attidute i´m only doing a mimicry of what happened in all the nerf sorc topics by the people now defending their beloved cloak.
Must be shabby when the mirror is held up to you.

The 2 abilities aren't even comparable, but here is what I wanted to happen with bolt escape.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/179126/immobilize-should-prevent-bolt-escape/p1

as you can see, there are many many sorcs putting the idea down, very nasty people. This would of been a lot better than what we got.

I'm glad you see the problem.

GreenSoup2HoT

Glad to know Zos confirmed they are looking at cloak. -_-

I hope talons is next. Then wrecking blow. Then templars spamming heals. Then snare's. Then every other skill in the game until we are throwing pebbles at each other.

Literally hate the way this game is going. Zerg or loose. Nightblades used to be true assassins. Takin names, if you didnt like dieing to nightblades, there was a counter (radient mage light)

If you didnt like blinking sorcs, stop chasing them.
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The only problem the game had in 1.6 was some little things that needed touch up's. The damage was changed right when they finally fixed armour pen and now it feels like we have 70% damage reduction.

In my opinion only a couple skills last patch needed damage tweaks. Everything else was fine since most of it could be countered but people refused to use them since they also wanted 100% dps.

If only this game supoorted small group play instead of nerfing all the skill into kiting and burst. Now its just who has a bigger army. Players who knew how to manage their resources and rotations were rewarded by getting kills back to back. Now as soon as you have 3+ on you, your most likly dead unless they are just bad. However players that bad are battle leveled and have 30k+ hp.
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Eric you made the game bad and you should feel bad. So many blankets on this game you could assume this game is a linen closet.

Devotion

This thread is laughable

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Be careful what you listen to, don't confuse bad players with legit concerns. So much misinformation in the many threads about cloak.

The guy saying he pvped 3 character to high ranks but never once saw flare work. IT WORKS! I'm living proof, it works and I couldn't do a single thing about it, I just rolled over and died. The other counters work too, just look at the pvpers who have 0 issues with magicka nightblades.

If you Nerf the skill then you need to make it work reliably, currently I don't have a legit way to know if I cloak that it will work for duration intended. I can waste 2-3-4 cloaks trying to actually cloak to no avail.

Derra

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The whole game favoring magica classes has always been a problem. Your other question you can answer yourself by answering the following:
Streak has never been a problem on stamina sorcerers. As of now the ability has been nerfed 6 times despite not being a problem on stamina sorcerers. Why do you think that has happened? It´s the same answer for cloak.

Edit: I´m not stating this is NOT restrictive. It´s just how zenimax is (and has to) approach balancing in their opinion overperforming skills.

Edit2: This is also only true for skills where "spamming" gives a destinct advantage. Shield buffs / toggles and other long duration effects don´t fall in that catigory.

@Derra
If the whole game is already restrictive like what you said, why restrict it even further? I don't get your logic, you are of the opinion that nerfing Cloak won't be a problem for stam NBs but you also agreed that it is restrictive. What's your goal here because you're contradicting yourself.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on Edit 2 though. However, I'd like to point out that shields are always spammed. For example, a player runs out of shield from taking massive hits in 4 seconds and they spam it over and over again just to keep it up. I have no problems with it though as I'm just stating that people actually do spam shields.

I don´t think you understand what i´m trying to say. I´ll try to explain it:

Streak was overpowered on magica sorcerers and was therefor rightfully nerfed. Nobody cared about stamina sorcerers use of the skill because it was causing a problem when utilized in an optimal scenario (that being magica).

Cloak is in a similar situation for magica nightblades like streak used to be for magica sorcerers. Therefor it will get nerfed until the use of cloak from magica nightblades is in the level of where zenimax wants it to be.
They simply can´t balance the skill for stamina and magica builds both and because the skill is problematic with magica builds it will be balanced in this respect.

This leaves stamina in the dirt but because of how the whole game is working that´s sadly how zos has to go about it.

I don´t think cloak is that much of a problem on stamina nightblades currently but they can´t balance for stamina nightblades but HAVE to balance for the case where a magica nightblade is using the skill.

Tbh cloak is not like streak/BE/BOL. Doesn't teleport you and stun everyone close to you wh

Derra wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Ladies and Gents i give you every skill in game to counter cloak... by shameless advertising

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219654/to-those-who-think-dark-cloak-needs-a-nerf/p1

Thank you kind sir! I´ve not laughed that hard for like two or three days and I´m quite a happy person.

Laughing? Most of those skills work, there are even some single target skills that work Curse, reapply everytime it explodes. All he can do is try to run away.

You know what good nightblades do? They don´t chaincloak but instead wait for the time when the curse explodes to press cloak again. If they´ve moved in a direction you did not expect them to they´re gone.
Even better nightblades in imperial city run into a pack of npcs - the curse explosion (which happens to be an aoe) aggros all npcs to the sorc.
It´s great against scrubs it does nothing against someone with half a brain.

Edit: Also saying cloak can´t be compared to streak bc it does not teleport and stun enemies is like saying you can´t nerf streak bc it does not grant invisibility...

ToRelax wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Ladies and Gents i give you every skill in game to counter cloak... by shameless advertising

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219654/to-those-who-think-dark-cloak-needs-a-nerf/p1

Thank you kind sir! I´ve not laughed that hard for like two or three days and I´m quite a happy person.

Laughing? Most of those skills work, there are even some single target skills that work Curse, reapply everytime it explodes. All he can do is try to run away.

It is possible for these skills to pull a NB out of Cloak, but that's it. I mean the last thing I would do when a NB goes into Cloak is start an Overload heavy attack.

Everybody laughed at sorcs when they pointed out gapclosers as a counter to bolt escape. Now NBs expect everyone else not to laugh at them when they point out 6m range aoes as a counter to cloak when thy have 65% movement speed while invisible.
I really don´t get those ppl. It´s just beyond me.

Derra

Domander wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

blur wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

tennotsukai87 wrote: »

People keep saying use AoEs and stealth detect potions. I use these options, but with AoEs I can never guess where the NB has fled off to. Once I use that one AoE and miss, he or she is long gone. Just fyi, I'm using lightning flood. Stealth detect is an option that I've used a few times; though, when I do have a potion to use and utilize the detect potion that NB can run so fast in SC that I may or may not catch him in time.

As an aside, I do think NBs lack survivability in terms of class abilities, but I don't feel like SC should be spammable. Infinite Focused Aim -> SC can really bug a person without ever the chance to find them. Perhaps, ZOS can do a little nerf while giving a slight buff to another skill to help with survivability. I will agree that NB is pretty damn squishy.

thats your problem.

Lightning flood is imo a small range aoe.
Try using caltrops, steel tornado, bombard, lightning form, encase -_-, runes -_-, mines -__-,
impulse, mage light u.u

Seriously cloak doesnt need a nerf (i play a stam sorc).
Aspect of terror (fear) is what needs the nerfing!!!

caltrops - very expensive stamina cost, perfect way to line yourself up for being feared, again
steel tornado - pbaoe that does have a decent range, but if the nb is smart they'll cloak between your attacks and run a direction so that your next attack will miss
bombard - decent range and nice rood/snare, only real weakness is its a cone, so the closer you are to the nb the less they have to move to escape
lightning form - like steel tornado, but without having to spam it, nb's can do exactly the same thing to avoid you
encase like bombard, but doesn't damage and in my own experience is hit or miss in keeping them pinned
runes - requires you to either see the target or be attacked, decent if the nb hits you with a dot, but otherwise kinda meh at that
mines - really?
impulse - same as steel tornado, but less aoe, the dot can help but most nb's don't worry about dots
mage light - have you seen its effective aoe? Seems like it begins and ends on your own characters feet for how much range it has

Caltrops is really good for this. I use it constantly as do most stam sorcs (and other classes) to stop NBs.
Steel Tornado has a 12.5m range
Lightning Form works all the time for me and other popular Stam Sorcs like Xael and Fengrush.

Radiant Magelight is a 12m radius against players in Light Armor. You need to factor in Medium Armor bonus and Stealthty (Bosmer / Khajit) bonus. then again, this is a nerf cloak thread so that doesn't matter. 12m for RML, thats huge. At my feet my ass.



These type of threads are really bad and most of you should feel ashamed of yourselves. You don't seem to realize how cringeworthy and embarassing this thread is.

The small group of you looking for a scapegoat (cloak) are absolutely ridiculous. Your argument is that a NB gets away... newsflash, that's the point of the ability. Are you going to cry and whine about heals being able heal after you get cloaked nerfed? Stupid people everywhere...

I would express my condolences but since half of the people in this topic now defending nightblades have been arguing against sorcerers who made the same arguments with respect to bolt escape all i can do is laugh at this topic.
You had it coming.
Now the impending nerf gives me a warm feeling and makes me sleep well at night. Just try to view it as karma (because that´s essentially what it is - when they gutted sorcs abilities to get away it was clear that they would do so for every ability enabling someone to get away sooner or later. In the end the forumcryblades are responsible themselves).

Listen to this ZOS, attitudes like this are the real problem.

Nope not at all. It started with nerfs to bolt escape. Now cloak has to follow for the sake of Balance. You can´t nerf one ability without touching the other. Essentially the argument to not nerf cloak are the same to not nerf bolt escape.
Either you agree that bolt escape nerfs were not warranted and should be reverted or bolt escape was indeed op and the same holds true for cloak then.

Edit: Well now that i think about it - actually attitudes like this are the real problem. The funny thing is with this attidute i´m only doing a mimicry of what happened in all the nerf sorc topics by the people now defending their beloved cloak.
Must be shabby when the mirror is held up to you.

The 2 abilities aren't even comparable, but here is what I wanted to happen with bolt escape.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/179126/immobilize-should-prevent-bolt-escape/p1

as you can see, there are many many sorcs putting the idea down, very nasty people. This would of been a lot better than what we got.

I'm glad you see the problem.

Haha. Immobilize should prevent bolt escape. I remember that. How about aoe prevents cloak for 4 seconds if not purged then and we don´t nerf the ability as is?

Honestly, it was one of the worst ideas i´ve ever read on these forums. It would be a thousand times worse than what we have (but atleast you partly got what you wanted bc you can now only teleport in the direction you´re facing while immobilized).

Edit: Why was it a bad idea? For one that immobilize are spammable (some even at 28m range) while also not being accessible for every class. Templar want to fight a sorc? Better get a bow or go home bud. Also the immobilize duration (atleast for some) would have been far too long considering rolldodges were kinda limited for magica builds back then and are even more so nowadays.
Secondly everyone with a charge already has an immobilize that prevents bolt escape bc for the duration of any gapcloser in the game you´re rooted and silenced.