Cloak Needs A Nerf
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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Do you really think nightblades keep shadow image up all the time, and in range, and in a proper place to escape? Not to mention it bugging out while CC'd.
Well that´s exactly what good players do? You don´t go in if you don´t have a plan out?
Hell the first thing i do when leading our grp into an encounter is explain how and where we retreat if something goes wrong. That you even come here and say you can approach things with your simple mindset as a nightblade shows how broken cloak is.
"I´ve got one of the best escape abilities in the game but because cloak is pulling myself out of trouble anyway 90% of the time why would i even bother to use it hurrr durrr" - random NB probably.Knootewoot wrote: »
No. I did not run out of stamina because I am a stamblade. I don't need cloak. I cast manouvres and just run of. Because it is not cloak that makes the NB escape alone. It is a combination of skills.
Caltrops? Cast manouvres and run and only cloak once. works not on magicka NB because they don't have much stamina.
Magcika NB's are fast if in combination with Vampire+concealed weapon + cloak (and double take). But in caltrops they dont get far. Shadow image? Not everybody has this and also fails if to far out of range.
If people are upset NB's get away, then don't look at cloak. Because it can be countered and many NB use other skills to get away and cloak maybe once or twice. Nerfing it won't change a bit in NB's escaping. Because most don't spam it constantly.
Magica NBs don´t need vampire to get max speed while cloaked. Always nice to see NB not even familiar with basic mechanics of their class.
A NB not using shadowimage and not getting out of trouble is like a sorc complaining they can´t escape anyone without bolt escape but only using speedbuff + sprint. Sounds pretty simple minded huh? - It is.Edited by Derra on September 24, 2015 8:11AM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭: ( unintentional spamEdited by Derra on September 24, 2015 8:10AM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
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Well that´s exactly what good players do? You don´t go in if you don´t have a plan out?
Hell the first thing i do when leading our grp into an encounter is explain how and where we retreat if something goes wrong. That you even come here and say you can approach things with your simple mindset as a nightblade shows how broken cloak is.
"I´ve got one of the best escape abilities in the game but because cloak is pulling myself out of trouble anyway 90% of the time why would i even bother to use it hurrr durrr" - random NB probably.
Magica NBs don´t need vampire to get max speed while cloaked. Always nice to see NB not even familiar with basic mechanics of their class.
A NB not using shadowimage and not getting out of trouble is like a sorc complaining they can´t escape anyone without bolt escape but only using speedbuff + sprint. Sounds pretty simple minded huh? - It is.
Seems you are simple minded. So you say every NB MUST use shadow image. Because that is their escape tool, but then want cloak nerfed?
so it is not cloak that makes the NB go away, but shadow image.
and yes, I do use shadow image if I am magicka NB. But as I stated, I am stamblade and I don't need cloak or shadow image, I just pop charging manouvres.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »
Seems you are simple minded. So you say every NB MUST use shadow image. Because that is their escape tool, but then want cloak nerfed?
so it is not cloak that makes the NB go away, but shadow image.
and yes, I do use shadow image if I am magicka NB. But as I stated, I am stamblade and I don't need cloak or shadow image, I just pop charging manouvres.
What makes sorc good in escaping is the combination of bolt escape and shields (and speedbuff + sprint). If you don´t use one or the other you won´t be as effective when trying to survive.
It´s the same for NB.
Both sorc abilities can be spammed both got their hit with the nerfhammer. For the nightblade only one ability is spammable which is why you can only nerf one of the two abilities.
If you get away as a stam NB that´s fine by me. I can see where you´re going and react accordingly. Against magica you can´t do that. Cloak is only problematic for magica builds so there is no point in arguing from the point of view of a stam NB. Just because your build does not get to use an ability to it´s fullest potential it does not mean the ability is balanced for builds doing so.Edited by Derra on September 24, 2015 8:27AM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
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Well that´s exactly what good players do? You don´t go in if you don´t have a plan out?
Hell the first thing i do when leading our grp into an encounter is explain how and where we retreat if something goes wrong. That you even come here and say you can approach things with your simple mindset as a nightblade shows how broken cloak is.
"I´ve got one of the best escape abilities in the game but because cloak is pulling myself out of trouble anyway 90% of the time why would i even bother to use it hurrr durrr" - random NB probably.
Good players are flexible. That you come in here and say pvp is something you can always plan out is pretty sad, and very naive. When moving around the city do you plan to run into other players? I'm sorry that you're stuck in your blob mentality.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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Good players are flexible. That you come in here and say pvp is something you can always plan out is pretty sad, and very naive. When moving around the city do you plan to run into other players? I'm sorry that you're stuck in your blob mentality.
You pretty much shot yourself in the knee there - I´ve been playing with 3 to 4 people in 1.6 and am still playing in grps of maximum 6 ppl in 1.7.
A good leader will always try to plan for every situation the grp will encounter regardless of grpsize.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
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What makes sorc good in escaping is the combination of bolt escape and shields (and speedbuff + sprint). If you don´t use one or the other you won´t be as effective when trying to survive.
It´s the same for NB.
Both sorc abilities can be spammed both got their hit with the nerfhammer. For the nightblade only one ability is spammable which is why you can only nerf one of the two abilities.
If you get away as a stam NB that´s fine by me. I can see where you´re going and react accordingly. Against magica you can´t do that. Cloak is only problematic for magica builds so there is no point in arguing from the point of view of a stam NB. Just because your build does not get to use an ability to it´s fullest potential it does not mean the ability is balanced for builds doing so.
I understand your argument. Cloak is indeed spamable but most NB's don't spam it.
For magicka NB, they use shadow image, cloak once and they are gone
For stamina NB, they use manouvres for cc immunity then when clear, cloak once and change direction while still having the speed buff and they are gone
So nerfing cloak in cast time, magicka cost or whatever will not change the fact a NB will get away if it is a good player. Bad NB never get away, whether they spam cloak or not. Most NB's I know cloak once or twice depending in situation.
Also when you run around as NB, there is always a chance you run into enemies, stealhed or not. And most of the times there is not a good opportunity to cast shadow image. In an open field, the shadow image can be clearly seen and I always cast some caltrop on the shadow image while keeping an eye on it. In IC it is for most NB harder to cast a good position for shadow image because most hallways are so tiny, even teleporting back won't stop a zerg for running over you since the distance between you and the shadow image is limited.
Nerf cloak for all I care. I doubt there will be a descrease in NB's that escape.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »
I understand your argument. Cloak is indeed spamable but most NB's don't spam it.
For magicka NB, they use shadow image, cloak once and they are gone
For stamina NB, they use manouvres for cc immunity then when clear, cloak once and change direction while still having the speed buff and they are gone
So nerfing cloak in cast time, magicka cost or whatever will not change the fact a NB will get away if it is a good player. Bad NB never get away, whether they spam cloak or not. Most NB's I know cloak once or twice depending in situation.
Also when you run around as NB, there is always a chance you run into enemies, stealhed or not. And most of the times there is not a good opportunity to cast shadow image. In an open field, the shadow image can be clearly seen and I always cast some caltrop on the shadow image while keeping an eye on it. In IC it is for most NB harder to cast a good position for shadow image because most hallways are so tiny, even teleporting back won't stop a zerg for running over you since the distance between you and the shadow image is limited.
Nerf cloak for all I care. I doubt there will be a descrease in NB's that escape.
I think it´s mainly about the ability to control fights and engage/disengage at will (especially against ranged builds - not so much melee) without significant resource costs.
As sorc now you have points where you have to commit to a fight. You can still get away in many situations but not as easy and with as little resource cost as it used to be - i think this is where they want to get with magica nightblades too.
Personally i would like more vaible counters to cloak and not nerfing that ability at all (i think when nerfing it reducing magica reg is the best way to go about it bc it won´t be as restrictive in a scenario where you have to spam it a couple of times to even get it to work).
The problem with cloak counters is they are almost exclusively single purpose skills or not really vaible. You can´t get a nightblade out of cloak with impulse - atleast not a competent one. Magelight has been argued over a lot - still you don´t see any good solo/smallgrp players running this skill (most players know why - even NBs).
Especially in IC aoes are even less of a counter to cloak because you will aggro NPCs and basically kill yourself.
Flare is again a single purpose skill and easily to avoid if not used in melee.Edited by Derra on September 24, 2015 9:03AM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
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You pretty much shot yourself in the knee there - I´ve been playing with 3 to 4 people in 1.6 and am still playing in grps of maximum 6 ppl in 1.7.
A good leader will always try to plan for every situation the grp will encounter regardless of grpsize.
The beauty of pvp is that you can't plan for everything. Planning to go here and then here and do this is what a blob does, which is why I made that comment. The mentality doesn't require a large group. I'm also not saying that's a bad way to play, (planning) but it's not going to work all the time. If you plan everything, what do you do when the plan doesn't work? you just die? You can plan a retreat, but what happens when it's cut off? The same goes for that ability, it doesn't always work that well, and the really really hilarious thing.... neither does cloak.
Detect pot = cloak doesn't work
any aoe = cloak doesn't work
piercing mark... etc etc etc etc etc.
Edited by Domander on September 24, 2015 9:24AM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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The beauty of pvp is that you can't plan for everything. Planning to go here and then here and do this is what a blob does, which is why I made that comment. The mentality doesn't require a large group. I'm also not saying that's a bad way to play, (planning) but it's not going to work all the time. If you plan everything, what do you do when the plan doesn't work? you just die? You can plan a retreat, but what happens when it's cut off? The same goes for that ability, it doesn't always work that well.
Small group pvp is my favorite as well, but the best pvp is always flexible and reactive.
Ofc it´s flexible and reactive. But considering different classes and different players in the grp who all react differently in a situation I´ve made the best experience in trying to lay out one or two exit strategies before the encounter of a fight. When saying planning i did not mean one possible outcome or error.
I view it as something like a starcraft match with the added layer of someone putting up enemy figures that were not on the map before. For me that leaves still some kind of predictability of the fight especially in terms of our own grp movement as i know what the different players and classes / skilllayouts are capable off. Same goes for enemy movements.
Playing only reactive is in the same way restrictive as only playing to according one plan. Flexibility does not rule out proper planning.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
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Ofc it´s flexible and reactive. But considering different classes and different players in the grp who all react differently in a situation I´ve made the best experience in trying to lay out one or two exit strategies before the encounter of a fight. When saying planning i did not mean one possible outcome or error.
I view it as something like a starcraft match with the added layer of someone putting up enemy figures that were not on the map before. For me that leaves still some kind of predictability of the fight especially in terms of our own grp movement as i know what the different players and classes / skilllayouts are capable off. Same goes for enemy movements.
Playing only reactive is in the same way restrictive as only playing to according one plan. Flexibility does not rule out proper planning.
One reason for not using shadow image is in fact thinking ahead, a nightblade using it loses the element of surprise... which is a pretty big deal for stealth based characters.0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So many people running caltrops and mark in Imperial City cloak is already useless. If you turn off magicka regen now all nightblades have no defense mechanism.
Literally what are we suppose to do? I can't roll, blocking stops my regen so i try to avoid that. I had to spec into magicka regen so i could cloak instead of dodge roll but now your going to throw that out to?
Damn zos you really no how to mess up a game.PS4 NA DC2 -
babanovac✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »Literally what are we suppose to do? I can't roll, blocking stops my regen so i try to avoid that. I had to spec into magicka regen so i could cloak instead of dodge roll but now your going to throw that out to?
Welcome to every other class in the game.2 -
k9mouse✭✭✭✭✭
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I play a Sorc and I can safely say that shadow cloak does NOT need a nerf. There are detect pots, binds and DoT's that all solve the problem. The actual problem is the people, like the OP, who want 1 build that counters everything in the game. If you continually go around nerfing everything, you'll eventually ruin the game. As you said, there are already ways to counter shadow cloak, if people prefer to use health/Stamina/Magicka pots, that's their decision and they sacrifice a way to detect cloaked NB's, or stealthed enemies...
This is how I feel. Don't let loud person ruin the game for rest of us for yelling Neft this and nerft that all the time.
(not talking about OP per say, but general posts about the forums)
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CP5✭✭✭✭✭
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Welcome to every other class in the game.
I looked at all the listed patch notes and checked out the changes nightblades have received. I could likely count all of their direct nerfs on one hand, but on a whole the class has been mostly fixed and then buffed over the past year. Doubt they want to have a nerf that may kinda influence some of their gameplay.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
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One reason for not using shadow image is in fact thinking ahead, a nightblade using it loses the element of surprise... which is a pretty big deal for stealth based characters.
Wich basically means you lose an escape tool for trying to gank. Sounds fair to me.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
Molag_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Brilliant topic, agreed. It needs nerfed.
Edit: Even if it was a tiny nerf.Edited by Molag_Crow on October 4, 2015 6:46AM--ϟ-- Crows_Descend - Templar - Ebonheart Pact [PS4]&[PC] [EU] --ϟ--
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Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
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Ah, the same guy wanting Mark Target nerfed. Welcome!CrowsDescend wrote: »Brilliant topic, agreed. It needs nerfed.
Edited by Lava_Croft on September 24, 2015 6:17PM2 -
revonine✭✭✭✭Oh no way. There's no way in hell your nerfing cloak when I still have to spam it to get it to work even with the so called fixes. Imagine implementing this proposed no magicka regen while cloaked if I still have to spam it to get it to work I'll be out of magicka in a heartbeat.
Magblades have no damage shield, no burst heals and are probably the squishiest class in general you nerf cloak and we're no longer competitive in PvP.
This nerf of the month crap really needs to stop. You whiners won't be satisfied until every reason every class is unique and brings something to the table is completely destroyed. I don't know which is worse the whiners or ZOS for caving to them every single time.2 -
KundaliniHero✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »So many people running caltrops and mark in Imperial City cloak is already useless. If you turn off magicka regen now all nightblades have no defense mechanism.
Literally what are we suppose to do? I can't roll, blocking stops my regen so i try to avoid that. I had to spec into magicka regen so i could cloak instead of dodge roll but now your going to throw that out to?
Damn zos you really no how to mess up a game.
This is exactly my point.
Notice how most of these conversations revolve around the NB escaping....
thats because if they didnt escape they would be dead.
Besides shadow cloak and fear, they have no other real defenses that are innate to their class.
I get how frustrating it can be sometimes but gimping a class because you cant easily kill them is pathetic.
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CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KundaliniHero wrote: »
This is exactly my point.
Notice how most of these conversations revolve around the NB escaping....
thats because if they didnt escape they would be dead.
Besides shadow cloak and fear, they have no other real defenses that are innate to their class.
I get how frustrating it can be sometimes but gimping a class because you cant easily kill them is pathetic.
Weren't similar comments used when discussing sorcerer's escaping? The primary tools the sorcerer has to survive is their shield and mobility, but people got upset when they were able to get out of combat. Now the wheel turns to nightblades and we repeat the same cycle, target class says l2p, people pointing at the class say learn to adapt, and all the while we haven't started constructive balance threads as to how we would like the game changed...1 -
revonine✭✭✭✭KundaliniHero wrote: »
This is exactly my point.
Notice how most of these conversations revolve around the NB escaping....
thats because if they didnt escape they would be dead.
Besides shadow cloak and fear, they have no other real defenses that are innate to their class.
I get how frustrating it can be sometimes but gimping a class because you cant easily kill them is pathetic.
Good points. Also you know whats hilarious:
That guy that wrecking blowed you to death - so annoying
That DK that talon spammed you till you were out of stamina - annoying
That sorc that blasted you with 10K overload light attacks - annoying
That templar that outhealed every single bit of damage you just did - not cool
But that nightblade that cloaked to try get away from you? THAT'S IT NB IS CLEARLY OP4 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭
Need to keep in mind though that if people ONLY used things innate to their class, it would be a whole different story. However, that simply isn't the case. You cannot balance an ability based purely on class abilities.Besides shadow cloak and fear, they have no other real defenses that are innate to their class.
And on a side note...Don't forget Blur. Strife is kinda useful-ish, though limited to Magicka builds. You also have slows, speed buffs and a Major Maim/teleport ability. I'd give up both my pets on my sorc for the NB Shade >.> Stam does get shafted in this department, but let's all glare angrily at ZoS about that. The lack of class-based stam defenses is pretty even across all classes anyway.2 -
nordickittyhawk✭✭✭✭✭Ladies and Gents i give you every skill in game to counter cloak... by shameless advertising
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219654/to-those-who-think-dark-cloak-needs-a-nerf/p10 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nordickittyhawk wrote: »Ladies and Gents i give you every skill in game to counter cloak... by shameless advertising
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219654/to-those-who-think-dark-cloak-needs-a-nerf/p1
You suggest ultimates, that despite working would only require the nightblade to use cloak again to escape it.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nordickittyhawk wrote: »Ladies and Gents i give you every skill in game to counter cloak... by shameless advertising
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219654/to-those-who-think-dark-cloak-needs-a-nerf/p1
Thank you kind sir! I´ve not laughed that hard for like two or three days and I´m quite a happy person.<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
KundaliniHero✭✭✭Dear Zenimax,
Please remove Sorcerers and Nightblades completely from the game they are constantly killing me and its just not fair.
sincerely,
world revolves around me.4 -
Molag_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭--ϟ-- Crows_Descend - Templar - Ebonheart Pact [PS4]&[PC] [EU] --ϟ--
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The greatest prison that people live in, is the fear of what other people think. - David Icke
Be your true, authentic self.1 -
Volrion✭✭✭✭If nightblades get "the same treatment" as sorcs, then shouldn't they an OP damage shield as we'll?
So we nerf cloak, but give NBs a shield so they can roll on 10 people with an I win button instead?
I dunno if that's a great solution... Haha
Btw, everyone has access to mist form and invis pots? Why don't you use them? Because you say you don't have room on your bar or inventory for a skill which has no offensive power? Hmmmm.......
Nightblades are squishy. We all know that everyone would choose to 1v1 a NB over any other class.
I know when I see a NB when I'm running my Stamplar I head straight for them!
No heals. No damage shields. No other escape mechanism.
Your thread is invalid.1
This discussion has been closed.