Cloak Needs A Nerf

coolermh · September 2015

Put mark target on assault skill tree at rank 10 where vigor was. Replace mark with a good self heal. Cloak becomes less of a problem

Derra · September 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

It would be nice if there was a morph for Reveling Flare that would make the caster the center for x seconds, similar to Proximity Detonation. Right now no one slots Reveling Flare because its way too slow, cast > target circle > place > throw flare animation > detection area. While the flare hits the ground the sneaky guy is 30m further around the corner.

Radiant Mage light is a less desirable option for 3 reasons:
Most magicka builds use Inner Light for pve dps/healing.

It takes up 2 slots on your bar without having an active use.

The detection range is fairly small.

4) You have 12% less magicka and 10% less crit chance with magelight compared to inner light.

It's an absurd DPS loss.

No you don't. You're showing your ignorance regarding this skill. Radiant Magelight doesn't actually reduce your magicka in a practical sense. You lose access to 5% of your magicka but it still counts towards your stats. So essentially you are "losing out" on 5% magicka which unless you have a really crappy build shouldn't make or break you. What you gain instead is far more of a benefit than what you lose.
You gain immunity from stealth stuns.

You and your allies take 50% less damage from stealth attacks.

You can see invisible enemies.

That's worth 5% magicka to me.

I know that.

What you're not including is the +7% magicka you get from Inner Light and the mages guild passives which is significant, not to mention 10% crit.

I personally don't care too much about Cloak. I kill NB all day erryday, but for a NB to suggest magelight as a viable counter is laughable. The radius is garbage, giving up two slots just to MAYBE see a NB for a second is garbage, and cloak spamming NBs are garbage.

No I'm not. Read again. I am including it. It's only 5% you get the other 2% from slotting it since it's a Mage's Guild ability, and guess what... So is Radiant Magelight! You're losing very little, unless like I said, you're build is so terrible you can't afford to lose 5% magicka.

A ) With magelight you are still down 7% magicka for the damage calculation. I know this is hard for you to understand so I'll ELI5 for you.

You have 100 max magicka.
You slot Inner light. Your max magicka becomes 107.
You slot magelight. Your max magicka is still 100.
Got that? Good.

B ) You are down 10% crit.
C ) With magelight your magicka bar will only actually hold 97% of your max magicka.
D ) The radius on magelight is garbage. IT DOESNT WORK.
E ) I don't need Magelight.

Nobody uses magelight. There is a reason for that. You are delusional.

There are far, FAR better options. That does not, however, justify Cloak as a spammable game mechanic.

You are so WRONG. Both morphs give the crit bonus. So right there you are showing your ignorance. You have absolutely no clue dude.

You're right about that, Radiant does give you crit, apparently.

I edited my post. I'm right about all of it. I know you choose not to believe me, but I use the damn spell and it works REALLY well. Just try it instead of griping about things you clearly don't understand.

Why I use Detect Pots and not Radiant Magelight:
I DPS in a competitive PvE guild. They invite the highest DPS. I would have to respeck every single time I logged into Cyrodiil. Not happening.

No other class demands that I devote 2 skill slots, that do not do much else, just to counter them. All it does if give me a little extra crit which is of dubious value because of the prevalence of damage shields. It is absolutely worthless for stamina builds.

The skill is passive/defensive and isn't very good at actually hunting down cloaked NBs. If you are a NB of any skill, you can stay 8 meters away from me with ease (6 if you are a cat). It used to be marginal for finding non-nightblades who were more or less immobile when they tried to stay stealthed when sneaking completely cut off stamina regen, but that is all.

For every time the skill prevents a stealthed attack, there are five other times when I am put at a disadvantage to another enemy because I did not have blazing shield or crushing shock slotted. That is an unacceptable opportunity cost.

This does not mean the skill is a poor defensive counter against cloak. It isn't. It means the price paid for the specific function is 9 times out of 10 too high. The only time I use radiant magelight is on my healer (my raid guild does not require me to DPS) when I am traveling alone on horseback through notorious ganking territory or in my own factions sewer area only because odds are I will be pitted against a NB opponent as opposed to the other three classes. Against the others, Radiant magelight puts me at a disadvantage so it doesn't get used.

What I, and I think most people want, is a skill that uses one slot on our bar that allows for active/offensive counter-play against cloaked NBs. Ideally this skill has some other functionality. Flare is trash. Currently, you NBs are the only class that possess such a skill.

You can keep insisting we are nubs who need to L2P and that's your prerogative. Just be aware the OP is one of the best players in the game and looked what happened to all those sorcerers who also said the PvP community was full of whiny skilless players. Ask them how the bolt escape nerf and shieldbreaker sets are working out.

There is nothing you could say that would make me take you seriously. I see the stuff you post and you're a terrible player too. No offense but you're also part of the problem and the OP isn't even close to one of "the best players in the game". That made me lol quite a bit.

You're on a roll today arent you bud?

No I really want to know. You seem like you're having a difficult time following along. It's really not that complicated. Joy Division never says anything that makes sense. Most of the threads include him/her whining about some mechanic or other and really not understanding how the game works.

Think of that guy whatever you want. He hits the nail on the head concerning radiant magelight and the reasons why so few players are using said skill...

eventide03b14a_ESO · September 2015

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

It would be nice if there was a morph for Reveling Flare that would make the caster the center for x seconds, similar to Proximity Detonation. Right now no one slots Reveling Flare because its way too slow, cast > target circle > place > throw flare animation > detection area. While the flare hits the ground the sneaky guy is 30m further around the corner.

Radiant Mage light is a less desirable option for 3 reasons:
Most magicka builds use Inner Light for pve dps/healing.

It takes up 2 slots on your bar without having an active use.

The detection range is fairly small.

4) You have 12% less magicka and 10% less crit chance with magelight compared to inner light.

It's an absurd DPS loss.

No you don't. You're showing your ignorance regarding this skill. Radiant Magelight doesn't actually reduce your magicka in a practical sense. You lose access to 5% of your magicka but it still counts towards your stats. So essentially you are "losing out" on 5% magicka which unless you have a really crappy build shouldn't make or break you. What you gain instead is far more of a benefit than what you lose.
You gain immunity from stealth stuns.

You and your allies take 50% less damage from stealth attacks.

You can see invisible enemies.

That's worth 5% magicka to me.

I know that.

What you're not including is the +7% magicka you get from Inner Light and the mages guild passives which is significant, not to mention 10% crit.

I personally don't care too much about Cloak. I kill NB all day erryday, but for a NB to suggest magelight as a viable counter is laughable. The radius is garbage, giving up two slots just to MAYBE see a NB for a second is garbage, and cloak spamming NBs are garbage.

No I'm not. Read again. I am including it. It's only 5% you get the other 2% from slotting it since it's a Mage's Guild ability, and guess what... So is Radiant Magelight! You're losing very little, unless like I said, you're build is so terrible you can't afford to lose 5% magicka.

A ) With magelight you are still down 7% magicka for the damage calculation. I know this is hard for you to understand so I'll ELI5 for you.

You have 100 max magicka.
You slot Inner light. Your max magicka becomes 107.
You slot magelight. Your max magicka is still 100.
Got that? Good.

B ) You are down 10% crit.
C ) With magelight your magicka bar will only actually hold 97% of your max magicka.
D ) The radius on magelight is garbage. IT DOESNT WORK.
E ) I don't need Magelight.

Nobody uses magelight. There is a reason for that. You are delusional.

There are far, FAR better options. That does not, however, justify Cloak as a spammable game mechanic.

You are so WRONG. Both morphs give the crit bonus. So right there you are showing your ignorance. You have absolutely no clue dude.

You're right about that, Radiant does give you crit, apparently.

I edited my post. I'm right about all of it. I know you choose not to believe me, but I use the damn spell and it works REALLY well. Just try it instead of griping about things you clearly don't understand.

Why I use Detect Pots and not Radiant Magelight:
I DPS in a competitive PvE guild. They invite the highest DPS. I would have to respeck every single time I logged into Cyrodiil. Not happening.

No other class demands that I devote 2 skill slots, that do not do much else, just to counter them. All it does if give me a little extra crit which is of dubious value because of the prevalence of damage shields. It is absolutely worthless for stamina builds.

The skill is passive/defensive and isn't very good at actually hunting down cloaked NBs. If you are a NB of any skill, you can stay 8 meters away from me with ease (6 if you are a cat). It used to be marginal for finding non-nightblades who were more or less immobile when they tried to stay stealthed when sneaking completely cut off stamina regen, but that is all.

For every time the skill prevents a stealthed attack, there are five other times when I am put at a disadvantage to another enemy because I did not have blazing shield or crushing shock slotted. That is an unacceptable opportunity cost.

This does not mean the skill is a poor defensive counter against cloak. It isn't. It means the price paid for the specific function is 9 times out of 10 too high. The only time I use radiant magelight is on my healer (my raid guild does not require me to DPS) when I am traveling alone on horseback through notorious ganking territory or in my own factions sewer area only because odds are I will be pitted against a NB opponent as opposed to the other three classes. Against the others, Radiant magelight puts me at a disadvantage so it doesn't get used.

What I, and I think most people want, is a skill that uses one slot on our bar that allows for active/offensive counter-play against cloaked NBs. Ideally this skill has some other functionality. Flare is trash. Currently, you NBs are the only class that possess such a skill.

You can keep insisting we are nubs who need to L2P and that's your prerogative. Just be aware the OP is one of the best players in the game and looked what happened to all those sorcerers who also said the PvP community was full of whiny skilless players. Ask them how the bolt escape nerf and shieldbreaker sets are working out.

There is nothing you could say that would make me take you seriously. I see the stuff you post and you're a terrible player too. No offense but you're also part of the problem and the OP isn't even close to one of "the best players in the game". That made me lol quite a bit.

You're on a roll today arent you bud?

No I really want to know. You seem like you're having a difficult time following along. It's really not that complicated. Joy Division never says anything that makes sense. Most of the threads include him/her whining about some mechanic or other and really not understanding how the game works.

Think of that guy whatever you want. He hits the nail on the head concerning radiant magelight and the reasons why so few players are using said skill...

The only initial point I made was that there are counters. Whether you choose to use them is up to you. The detriment of Radiant Magelight was severely overstated and I simply attempted to correct the misunderstanding. Make no mistake this thread was created solely because someone was butthurt that NB might actually have a viable escape mechanic. There's nothing more to it. I argued the merits of RM which are indisputable. If you choose not to use it or would rather use the other morph that's up to you. Use detect pots, I don't really care. This whole conversation devolved because someone doesn't know how a certain skill works. Not a single person who has responded to me in a negative way has even a slight amount of my respect and I am not simply going to take their anecdotes as proof.

Joy_Division · September 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

You attacked me and not my argument.

blur wrote: »

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Joy_Division wrote: »

. Just be aware the OP is one of the best players in the game and looked what happened to all those sorcerers who also said the PvP community was full of whiny skilless players.

And the other group of "best players" who disagree with your and OPs stance?
What about them?

You guys ARE whining and there are 16 pages of it. Instead of addressing real issues like game mechanics you would rather cherry pick class abilities and further screw up the game. This is a vicious cycle of whining for change further plummeting the game down a broken imbalanced path.

edit: I mean for crying out loud, Gina Bruno already responded to this thread and you are all still bickering back and forth. It's so bad by the time I post this message someone else has already posted once or twice.

They have every right to express their opinion, just as the OP.

Tell me, is it fair or productive the this other group of "best players" say that people are nubs that need to L2P? My comment was to point out that the other perspective in this discussion is something that should not be brushed aside due to lack of legitimacy.

And, I did take the time to address the real issues to the game.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2280028/#Comment_2280028 - analysis of radiant magelight

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2280028/#Comment_2280028 -analysis why I think cloak should NOT be nerfed (surprise!)

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Sneaky-Snurr · September 2015

Derra wrote: »

Thats the problem. When looking at imbalances you have to look at a build that is optimised to use a skill to it´s fullest potential. This is why shields and bolt escape became a problem in the first place. Nobody would argue streak was to strong on a stamina sorc.
You can´t argue - it´s not a problem on a stam nb using food. That´s like saying stamina sorcs don´t use their shields therefor shieldbreaker has to be patched out of the game.

@Derra
Why must a skill have to be tied to one 'optimised build' as you've stated? So only magicka users can use Cloak? I thought there are only 3 (if i'm not mistaken) NB abilities that scale off stamina? Are you trying to kill off Stam NBs and bringing back StickBlades? And I thought this game is about free and non-restrictive choices for the development of your build and not 'You have to use this "optimised build" only to use one skill' game.
What you stated there is extremely restrictive. From that point of view, you have to be a magicka user to use any class abilities because I can safely say that 95% of all class abilities are scaled off magicka and running a stam build to use magicka scaled abilities are under-optimised (or not 'optimised' like what you've stated).
Food for thought.

Derra · September 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

Thats the problem. When looking at imbalances you have to look at a build that is optimised to use a skill to it´s fullest potential. This is why shields and bolt escape became a problem in the first place. Nobody would argue streak was to strong on a stamina sorc.
You can´t argue - it´s not a problem on a stam nb using food. That´s like saying stamina sorcs don´t use their shields therefor shieldbreaker has to be patched out of the game.

@Derra
Why must a skill have to be tied to one 'optimised build' as you've stated? So only magicka users can use Cloak? I thought there are only 3 (if i'm not mistaken) NB abilities scaled off stamina? Are you trying to kill off Stam NBs and bringing back StickBlades? And I thought this game is about free and non-restrictive choices for the development of your build and not 'You have to use this "optimised build" only to use one skill' game.
What you stated there is extremely restrictive. From that point of view, you have to be a magicka user to use any class abilities because I can safely say that 95% of all class abilities are scaled off magicka. Food for thought.

The whole game favoring magica classes has always been a problem. Your other question you can answer yourself by answering the following:
Streak has never been a problem on stamina sorcerers. As of now the ability has been nerfed 6 times despite not being a problem on stamina sorcerers. Why do you think that has happened? It´s the same answer for cloak.

Edit: I´m not stating this is NOT restrictive. It´s just how zenimax is (and has to) approach balancing in their opinion overperforming skills.

Edit2: This is also only true for skills where "spamming" gives a destinct advantage. Shield buffs / toggles and other long duration effects don´t fall in that catigory.

OdinForge · September 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

You can keep insisting we are nubs who need to L2P and that's your prerogative. Just be aware the OP is one of the best players in the game and looked what happened to all those sorcerers who also said the PvP community was full of whiny skilless players. Ask them how the bolt escape nerf and shieldbreaker sets are working out.

Listen i understand that people don't like losing two skill slots for a NB counter. I don't like using one slot for a NB counter, i also don't like the idea of having to respec between PvP and PvE. I will typically make a choice on a skill between the two, and live with the decision (unlike gear which i can change easily). ZOS has the capability to "modify" pre-existing stealth counters, they can remove them and add new options in (like a piercing mark type skill) with less strength.

I'm all for ZOS adding new counters (take advantage of the enforcer tree in the future, or alliance war section). I can fight while I'm marked, or i can sacrifice a slot and use purge. What i didn't like was how detect pots worked around allies, if they fixed this and increased the duration i'd be cool with that too. I'm actually confused why they decreased the duration, with this artificial and terrible increased TTK. Seems like they brought threads like this upon themselves, it makes no sense to me.

I think NB is generally too weak for cloak "nerfs" though, not every build is equal to another. Just because some NB can build to be tankier, doesn't mean every NB builds that way.

Sneaky-Snurr · September 2015

Derra wrote: »

The whole game favoring magica classes has always been a problem. Your other question you can answer yourself by answering the following:
Streak has never been a problem on stamina sorcerers. As of now the ability has been nerfed 6 times despite not being a problem on stamina sorcerers. Why do you think that has happened? It´s the same answer for cloak.

Edit: I´m not stating this is NOT restrictive. It´s just how zenimax is (and has to) approach balancing in their opinion overperforming skills.

Edit2: This is also only true for skills where "spamming" gives a destinct advantage. Shield buffs / toggles and other long duration effects don´t fall in that catigory.

@Derra
If the whole game is already restrictive like what you said, why restrict it even further? I don't get your logic, you are of the opinion that nerfing Cloak won't be a problem for stam NBs but you also agreed that it is restrictive. What's your goal here because you're contradicting yourself.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on Edit 2 though. However, I'd like to point out that shields are always spammed. For example, a player runs out of shield from taking massive hits in 4 seconds and they spam it over and over again just to keep it up. I have no problems with it though as I'm just stating that people actually do spam shields.

Joy_Division · September 2015

@blur @OdinForge

I appreciate the response to my actual statements. Just to be clear I do *not* agree with the OP's stance or that cloak should get a nerf. My position is here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2280028/#Comment_2280028. I do not think cloak should be nerfed. Instead the flare skill which seems to be the intended "active" counter to hunt down NBs is seriously lacking in effectiveness and versatility, which prompts us to rely on detect pots, a counter, I don;t think anybody wants.

I can see how my poor phrasing might have lead you to believe I agreed with the OP. My point in citing him was not that I thought he was correct or that he was right simply because he is a good player. Indeed, since I would take a different approach than the OP, I would not want any correlation to exist between his position and that of "good" players! Rather it was to make it clear that the position that some sort of cloak reform was not a baseless or illegitimate stance that only inexperienced want to happen.

Eejit1331 · September 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Eejit1331 wrote: »

And it funny that YOU think NB are doomed if regen is removed during cloak. Give me a break. No one is buying the garbage being sold here. Like I said, as a magicka user, with spell gear on, I can still cloak/go invisible for around a full minte. This is nothing in comparison to the nerf to reflect or bol and they still survived. Cloak is being abused and time for the hammer.

@Eejit1331
See? That's the problem there. I've bolded the words so people can see. Whenever someone is getting the nerf hammer ready, they don't look at the 'problem' (when there's actually none) as a whole, they take it from one side only and you are no different than them. Your scope is extremely narrow, friend.

That being said, what about stam users? I'm starting to believe you don't even play NB completely. You stick on one end only and that's magicka side. That just proves to me and everyone here that you don't main as a NB and you don't know the ins and outs of this class. Have you considered the class as a whole? Please roll a stam NB and then you'll see what I mean. Plus, what you stated is pure exaggeration. No NBs can ever go invisible for almost a minute. Even if it's geared for cloaking only, it might have a chance to get near the minute mark. What you're asking from this nerf is that all NB players will be forced to go magicka build and thus, reviving the dreaded StickBlade.

You are right. I only play Breton magicka NB and I have all four classes I play often. But the fundamental idea that a Stamina NB complaining about a magicka ability is crazy. That's lime a stamina sorc defending why BOL shouldn't be nerfed.i it's common sense that a stam user can't use a magicka ability like a magicka player can. And 20 cloaks ar 2.5 seconds is not far off from a minute. I can change my gear and CP to easily go over a minute. I'm more than happy to put my stam gear on my NB and test it out, but again, cloak is a magicka ability.that's like me complaining that vigor sucks for magicka.

Derra · September 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

The whole game favoring magica classes has always been a problem. Your other question you can answer yourself by answering the following:
Streak has never been a problem on stamina sorcerers. As of now the ability has been nerfed 6 times despite not being a problem on stamina sorcerers. Why do you think that has happened? It´s the same answer for cloak.

Edit: I´m not stating this is NOT restrictive. It´s just how zenimax is (and has to) approach balancing in their opinion overperforming skills.

Edit2: This is also only true for skills where "spamming" gives a destinct advantage. Shield buffs / toggles and other long duration effects don´t fall in that catigory.

@Derra
If the whole game is already restrictive like what you said, why restrict it even further? I don't get your logic, you are of the opinion that nerfing Cloak won't be a problem for stam NBs but you also agreed that it is restrictive. What's your goal here because you're contradicting yourself.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on Edit 2 though. However, I'd like to point out that shields are always spammed. For example, a player runs out of shield from taking massive hits in 4 seconds and they spam it over and over again just to keep it up. I have no problems with it though as I'm just stating that people actually do spam shields.

I don´t think you understand what i´m trying to say. I´ll try to explain it:

Streak was overpowered on magica sorcerers and was therefor rightfully nerfed. Nobody cared about stamina sorcerers use of the skill because it was causing a problem when utilized in an optimal scenario (that being magica).

Cloak is in a similar situation for magica nightblades like streak used to be for magica sorcerers. Therefor it will get nerfed until the use of cloak from magica nightblades is in the level of where zenimax wants it to be.
They simply can´t balance the skill for stamina and magica builds both and because the skill is problematic with magica builds it will be balanced in this respect.

This leaves stamina in the dirt but because of how the whole game is working that´s sadly how zos has to go about it.

I don´t think cloak is that much of a problem on stamina nightblades currently but they can´t balance for stamina nightblades but HAVE to balance for the case where a magica nightblade is using the skill.

ZOS_Alex · September 2015

Hi, everyone.

We understand that people are going to disagree from time to time, but please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track.

Thank you!

vamp_emily · September 2015

I think one big mistake ESO has made is mixing PVE players with PVP players in IC.

That is kind of like putting a flower picker into a ring with an UFC ultimate fighter. It will never end well, and we will see more threads like this.

As a PVPer I am used to getting ganked, beat down and T-bagged. I except that, but I know If i travel in a group and a NB tried to do that, hes more than likely going to die or just sneak away which is fine with me.

Sneaky-Snurr · September 2015

Eejit1331 wrote: »

You are right. I only play Breton magicka NB and I have all four classes I play often. But the fundamental idea that a Stamina NB complaining about a magicka ability is crazy. That's lime a stamina sorc defending why BOL shouldn't be nerfed.i it's common sense that a stam user can't use a magicka ability like a magicka player can. And 20 cloaks ar 2.5 seconds is not far off from a minute. I can change my gear and CP to easily go over a minute. I'm more than happy to put my stam gear on my NB and test it out, but again, cloak is a magicka ability.that's like me complaining that vigor sucks for magicka.

@Eejit1331
Firstly, stam NBs aren't the complainers. It's the OP who's irrationally complaining about Cloak and the one who started it all. Which comes to my next point which I've tried explaining to others. NBs only have around 3 stam-based abilities. That's more than enough in terms of restriction. From how it is as of now, stam users aren't able to fully utilise class abilities because the majority of them are scaled off of magicka. That is extremely restrictive per se. That being said, what is left for stam users? And please leave other skill trees out of this, we're only talking about class abilities so putting vigour into the picture serves no purpose.

Also, BOL is one of the means a stam Sorc can use as its utility as it provides hard CC which is essential for their survival. Similar to Cloak as a stam NB.

Hexyl · September 2015

If you put a limit on shadow cloack, that mean this game realy take the road to cool down.

Not a bad news. But you should assume it and put a cool down on every *** spammable stupid abilities on this game.

Just have 2/3 over power skill and spam it isn't fun at all. Refresh buff every 20s isn't too..

KundaliniHero · September 2015

Igglez wrote: »

Lets just take all abilities away and play a game of light and heavy attacks

classic.

Eejit1331 · September 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Eejit1331 wrote: »

You are right. I only play Breton magicka NB and I have all four classes I play often. But the fundamental idea that a Stamina NB complaining about a magicka ability is crazy. That's lime a stamina sorc defending why BOL shouldn't be nerfed.i it's common sense that a stam user can't use a magicka ability like a magicka player can. And 20 cloaks ar 2.5 seconds is not far off from a minute. I can change my gear and CP to easily go over a minute. I'm more than happy to put my stam gear on my NB and test it out, but again, cloak is a magicka ability.that's like me complaining that vigor sucks for magicka.

@Eejit1331
Firstly, stam NBs aren't the complainers. It's the OP who's irrationally complaining about Cloak and the one who started it all. Which comes to my next point which I've tried explaining to others. NBs only have around 3 stam-based abilities. That's more than enough in terms of restriction. From how it is as of now, stam users aren't able to fully utilise class abilities because the majority of them are scaled off of magicka. That is extremely restrictive per se. That being said, what is left for stam users? And please leave other skill trees out of this, we're only talking about class abilities so putting vigour into the picture serves no purpose.

Also, BOL is one of the means a stam Sorc can use as its utility as it provides hard CC which is essential for their survival. Similar to Cloak as a stam NB.

Bolt Escape has two functions stun and bolt and morphs to absorb projuctiles or cause AOE typeople of damage. Out of all those options, they nerfed the escape from BE. as a stam user you may be able to hit it two or three times and a magicka user is 7 or 8 last time I tested it on the PTS (my sorc is stam).

Cloak activates the passives, drops agro (if other players are around) and make you invisable. It morphs to a 100% crit chance or a purge, so removing the magic regen will still allow the user to use it a lot more than a sorc can use BE. My NB can infinitely stay invisible and pull zero agro in IC, ZERO. The odds of my NB getting back to deposit my hard earned stones are astonishingly higher than any other class. I like playing all classes and it is obvious to me that cloak is a NB get out of jail card, while every other class must pay the piper. I wish they made the stones character bound and everyone would see how the NB becomes top dog.

How many times, how long should a stam NB be able to cloak/stay invisible/reset the fight/escape.
How many times in a row should a stamina user be ae to use a game changing magicka ability.

KundaliniHero · September 2015

You cant compare cloak to abilities like dodge roll and streak because unlike the latter there are many counters to it. Does it annoy the crap out of me, yes. Nothing grinds my gears more than to be playing in imperial city just to have some ass clown nightblade come along and wait for a mob to get my health down just enough so that he can one shot me with his lotus fan spam but hey, thats the game and honestly without that tension and impending danger in the background im not sure it would feel the same. I will tell you one thing though, it makes you a better player. My point being instead of whining on the forums try challenging yourself to be a better player. It took a little time but now I eat NB's for breakfast, they are the epitome of one trick ponies and are utterly predictable.

CP5 · September 2015

KundaliniHero wrote: »

You cant compare cloak to abilities like dodge roll and streak because unlike the latter there are many counters to it. Does it annoy the crap out of me, yes. Nothing grinds my gears more than to be playing in imperial city just to have some ass clown nightblade come along and wait for a mob to get my health down just enough so that he can one shot me with his lotus fan spam but hey, thats the game and honestly without that tension and impending danger in the background im not sure it would feel the same. I will tell you one thing though, it makes you a better player. My point being instead of whining on the forums try challenging yourself to be a better player. It took a little time but now I eat NB's for breakfast, they are the epitome of one trick ponies and are utterly predictable.

It's a defensive tool. Bolt escape can be countered with gap closers, dodge rolling can be countered now with snares but also a few hard cc's that could hit rolling targets. Defenses have counters, that is what makes the gameplay interesting. Cloaks counters are ineffective at countering cloak and often times less than valuable outside of that so with nightblades so happily spamming the skill it is going to get a nerf. Mainly replied since I believe cloak is more than comparable to rolling and bolting, and unlike the other two was not nerfed in terms of resources in the last update.

Omgwtfbbq321 · September 2015

As a 100% magicka sorc, this "Bolt Escape/Streak" thing amuses me. I have 14,000 health in IC/Cyrodiil, 8300 stamina. As you can imagine, being ganked is a guaranteed death. This doesn't bother me, like someone else said, it adds to the tension of the game and anyone in stealth could potentially do it.

With my 35,000+ magika I can streak about 7 times. Unlike a nightblade, I can clearly be seen the whole time doing it, I do not lose agro (Pick more up in IC as I run into more mobs) and once I stop, I am 2 hits from death with no attack/sheilds to do anything about it. Streaking non stop to get away is a death trap if any of the people you are running from know what they are doing.

I would recommend, for those of us who are not nightblades, to get into alchemy. I use potions of invisibility ALOT in IC. There really isn't a better way to lose agro when a situation gets bad, than to pop a potion and run. Just keep in mind, any projectile (magic or not) on its way to you when you cloak, will still hit you, cancel the potion and leave you waiting on the drink cool down.

This leads me to the only thing I don't like about the nightblade class. The "Get out of jail free cleanse" they get when cloaking. I am not worried about "removing negative effects like curse" I am talking about projectiles. Like dropping a comet on to a nightbaldes head only to have them vanish right as the comet reaches them and walk away free. I feel, although invisible, they should still be hit if standing in the impact zone.

If you nerf the night blades cloak, you will need to give them something else back in return. I would, say just make the support/assault skill lines that counter stealth more accessible. I mean most people using stealth get a free ride until their enemy has spent weeks in cyrodill doing alliance war objectives. I am vet16 and and have been in the chillrend campaign for quite a while now and am only support/assault level 6.

killingspreeb16_ESO · September 2015

CP5 wrote: »

show previous quotes

KundaliniHero wrote: »

You cant compare cloak to abilities like dodge roll and streak because unlike the latter there are many counters to it. Does it annoy the crap out of me, yes. Nothing grinds my gears more than to be playing in imperial city just to have some ass clown nightblade come along and wait for a mob to get my health down just enough so that he can one shot me with his lotus fan spam but hey, thats the game and honestly without that tension and impending danger in the background im not sure it would feel the same. I will tell you one thing though, it makes you a better player. My point being instead of whining on the forums try challenging yourself to be a better player. It took a little time but now I eat NB's for breakfast, they are the epitome of one trick ponies and are utterly predictable.

It's a defensive tool. Bolt escape can be countered with gap closers, dodge rolling can be countered now with snares but also a few hard cc's that could hit rolling targets. Defenses have counters, that is what makes the gameplay interesting. Cloaks counters are ineffective at countering cloak and often times less than valuable outside of that so with nightblades so happily spamming the skill it is going to get a nerf. Mainly replied since I believe cloak is more than comparable to rolling and bolting, and unlike the other two was not nerfed in terms of resources in the last update.

And unlike the other two cloak have more counter that's why cloak don't have a penality,add a penality and remove some counter then you have something called balance

edit:the counter works,some player know how to use them other don't or better they refuse to slot a counter because their personal reason or simply find excuse like they don't work(counter is not something that work 100% of the time),shieldstacking have as counter an useless set that people barely use

Xsorus · September 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

The funny thing is, before this patch was released and you guys had mentioned that detect pots weren't going to work against dark cloak, a bunch of us on the forums made countless posts about how stupid that change is, and how it'd make cloak overpowered.. When you made the changes on pts again, there were a lot of us that said, hey this is going to be over the top. I said this even though I had a nightblade.... Because I knew having played plenty of MMOs in the past in combat stealth is extremely powerful, hell gw2 has an extremely powerful version of it as well and it's not even near ESO version of it. This has been the first game I've seen that lets a stealth class do it in combat over and over again.

The game was balanced with detect pots.

Knootewoot · September 2015

Meh, after some testing yesterday with some NB's and some other people we found:

In IC if you are pure magicka NB and you attack someone. One time caltrops is dropped, NB=dead (outa stamina and cloak no worky)

If stamblade: Casts retreating or charging manouvres for cc immunity and runs of. Cloaks maybe once and mosty not at all.

Really, I serious doubt cloak is OP in IC. There might be NB's escaping but just a few. With our caltrop nets we caught almost all magicka NB's. Due to the tight corners and small rooms there was no escape. Caltrops + silence is even more fun since it rendered the magicka NB useless.

Even if they got away cloaking they where not near enough to attack or gank so who cares.

Only stamblades could attack and escape and only because of their stamina pool. retreating manouvres or shuffle, or (limited) dodge roll.

Really @ZOS.. be carefull with the nerf. You might end up in a downwards spiral of nerfing after every forum whine.

Nerf Sorc, Buff bows

Hydrocodone · September 2015

Game Over.

xaraan · September 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

I've played all four classes quite a bit and can tell you that Cloak doesn't need a nerf. I'm able to catch fellow NBs all the time with no problem using only one of the many ways to detect them. Cloak does not eliminate snares, it doesn't work if you are in caltrops or getting hit by AoE and obviously can be defeated by flare, r.magelight, and detect pots.

If you were going to give it the "block" treatment and not allow regen while cloaked, then it would need quite a bit of overhaul IMO as it's not designed for that as is.

Personally, I say leave it be. I catch NBs using any of my classes and get caught plenty by players when playing mine if they bother putting the effort in.

ToRelax · September 2015

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Knootewoot wrote: »

Meh, after some testing yesterday with some NB's and some other people we found:

In IC if you are pure magicka NB and you attack someone. One time caltrops is dropped, NB=dead (outa stamina and cloak no worky)

If stamblade: Casts retreating or charging manouvres for cc immunity and runs of. Cloaks maybe once and mosty not at all.

Really, I serious doubt cloak is OP in IC. There might be NB's escaping but just a few. With our caltrop nets we caught almost all magicka NB's. Due to the tight corners and small rooms there was no escape. Caltrops + silence is even more fun since it rendered the magicka NB useless.

Even if they got away cloaking they where not near enough to attack or gank so who cares.

Only stamblades could attack and escape and only because of their stamina pool. retreating manouvres or shuffle, or (limited) dodge roll.

Really @ZOS.. be carefull with the nerf. You might end up in a downwards spiral of nerfing after every forum whine.

Nerf Sorc, Buff bows

You ran out of stamina and didn't get away with Shadow Image? I am pretty sure there are more than a few NBs who would have survived that. Further, who cares wether they can attack me, unless they use shieldbreaker, most likely I survive anyway. That they can get away is what upsets so many players.

Domander · September 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

.
show previous quotes

Knootewoot wrote: »

Meh, after some testing yesterday with some NB's and some other people we found:

In IC if you are pure magicka NB and you attack someone. One time caltrops is dropped, NB=dead (outa stamina and cloak no worky)

If stamblade: Casts retreating or charging manouvres for cc immunity and runs of. Cloaks maybe once and mosty not at all.

Really, I serious doubt cloak is OP in IC. There might be NB's escaping but just a few. With our caltrop nets we caught almost all magicka NB's. Due to the tight corners and small rooms there was no escape. Caltrops + silence is even more fun since it rendered the magicka NB useless.

Even if they got away cloaking they where not near enough to attack or gank so who cares.

Only stamblades could attack and escape and only because of their stamina pool. retreating manouvres or shuffle, or (limited) dodge roll.

Really @ZOS.. be carefull with the nerf. You might end up in a downwards spiral of nerfing after every forum whine.

Nerf Sorc, Buff bows

You ran out of stamina and didn't get away with Shadow Image? I am pretty sure there are more than a few NBs who would have survived that. Further, who cares wether they can attack me, unless they use shieldbreaker, most likely I survive anyway. That they can get away is what upsets so many players.

Do you really think nightblades keep shadow image up all the time, and in range, and in a proper place to escape? Not to mention it bugging out while CC'd.

Domander · September 2015

xaraan wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

I've played all four classes quite a bit and can tell you that Cloak doesn't need a nerf. I'm able to catch fellow NBs all the time with no problem using only one of the many ways to detect them. Cloak does not eliminate snares, it doesn't work if you are in caltrops or getting hit by AoE and obviously can be defeated by flare, r.magelight, and detect pots.

If you were going to give it the "block" treatment and not allow regen while cloaked, then it would need quite a bit of overhaul IMO as it's not designed for that as is.

Personally, I say leave it be. I catch NBs using any of my classes and get caught plenty by players when playing mine if they bother putting the effort in.

I agree. I only have one character that often needs to use a detect pot when fighting a cloaking nightblade, but that's only if they are trying to run away. It's my magicka DK since his aoe range is limited, but 15 seconds is plenty of time to squash a nightblade.

My other characters all run large and/or persistent aoe or aoe gap closers or both

Knootewoot · September 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

.
show previous quotes

Knootewoot wrote: »

Meh, after some testing yesterday with some NB's and some other people we found:

In IC if you are pure magicka NB and you attack someone. One time caltrops is dropped, NB=dead (outa stamina and cloak no worky)

If stamblade: Casts retreating or charging manouvres for cc immunity and runs of. Cloaks maybe once and mosty not at all.

Really, I serious doubt cloak is OP in IC. There might be NB's escaping but just a few. With our caltrop nets we caught almost all magicka NB's. Due to the tight corners and small rooms there was no escape. Caltrops + silence is even more fun since it rendered the magicka NB useless.

Even if they got away cloaking they where not near enough to attack or gank so who cares.

Only stamblades could attack and escape and only because of their stamina pool. retreating manouvres or shuffle, or (limited) dodge roll.

Really @ZOS.. be carefull with the nerf. You might end up in a downwards spiral of nerfing after every forum whine.

Nerf Sorc, Buff bows

You ran out of stamina and didn't get away with Shadow Image? I am pretty sure there are more than a few NBs who would have survived that. Further, who cares wether they can attack me, unless they use shieldbreaker, most likely I survive anyway. That they can get away is what upsets so many players.

No. I did not run out of stamina because I am a stamblade. I don't need cloak. I cast manouvres and just run of. Because it is not cloak that makes the NB escape alone. It is a combination of skills.

Caltrops? Cast manouvres and run and only cloak once. works not on magicka NB because they don't have much stamina.

Magcika NB's are fast if in combination with Vampire+concealed weapon + cloak (and double take). But in caltrops they dont get far. Shadow image? Not everybody has this and also fails if to far out of range.

If people are upset NB's get away, then don't look at cloak. Because it can be countered and many NB use other skills to get away and cloak maybe once or twice. Nerfing it won't change a bit in NB's escaping. Because most don't spam it constantly.

Derra · September 2015

KundaliniHero wrote: »

You cant compare cloak to abilities like dodge roll and streak because unlike the latter there are many counters to it. Does it annoy the crap out of me, yes. Nothing grinds my gears more than to be playing in imperial city just to have some ass clown nightblade come along and wait for a mob to get my health down just enough so that he can one shot me with his lotus fan spam but hey, thats the game and honestly without that tension and impending danger in the background im not sure it would feel the same. I will tell you one thing though, it makes you a better player. My point being instead of whining on the forums try challenging yourself to be a better player. It took a little time but now I eat NB's for breakfast, they are the epitome of one trick ponies and are utterly predictable.

Well you´re right there are not as many counters to dodge. Still there is magica aoe - heavy channels for certain weapon types and few select spells.
For bolt escape the counters were range, gapclosers and speedbuffs. Still both of those abilities got nerfed (bolt escape which always was easier to counter because the counters would be used in most builds anyway was now nerfed for the 6th time).

I think the comparison to these abilities is pretty spot on.