The Issue with Eye of the Storm (Destruction Ultimate Morph)

Waffennacht

@GreenSoup2HoT familiar stuns, and the only way for me to know they are using reactive is for me to use my combo, so it usually gets a massive reduction

Waffennacht

@Minalan I'd love to duel too. I'll say you'd probably do pretty well against the cheese. Once a player figures out what to do, I can't win. But those first few matches are always fun lol. And some builds just can't counter.

For my tastes I enjoy my fire sorc more, he's much more well rounded and won't just die once a player has fought him a few times

Minalan

^^^ Lightning staff sorc here.

Every time some DK sends me back three or four different fire projectiles or heavy attacks with love... My scorched backside switches right back to lightning.

Reflect is the one thing that makes me rage salty in this game. I haven't once asked for it to be nerfed though, because it makes the game more interesting than one big block-fest.

So yeah. Bite me all of you MDK's.

Anti_Virus

Minalan wrote: »

^^^ Lightning staff sorc here.

Every time some DK sends me back three or four different fire projectiles or heavy attacks with love... My scorched backside switches right back to lightning.

Reflect is the one thing that makes me rage salty in this game. I haven't once asked for it to be nerfed though, because it makes the game more interesting than one big block-fest.

So yeah. Bite me all of you MDK's.

Well I mean you have mines so mine camp?

Relax i'm not attacking you if you think I am, but yeah I've allways prefered Lightning staff on my Sorc, not only is the heavy attack non reflectable but its undodgeable too.

Waffennacht

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

^^^ Lightning staff sorc here.

Every time some DK sends me back three or four different fire projectiles or heavy attacks with love... My scorched backside switches right back to lightning.

Reflect is the one thing that makes me rage salty in this game. I haven't once asked for it to be nerfed though, because it makes the game more interesting than one big block-fest.

So yeah. Bite me all of you MDK's.

Well I mean you have mines so mine camp?

Relax i'm not attacking you if you think I am, but yeah I've allways prefered Lightning staff on my Sorc, not only is the heavy attack non reflectable but its undodgeable too.

It's great for in-between burst pressure, the only prob I found was that many of the tankier builds can use that down time for heals, and HA appreciates the resource return.

Going fire is new for me, and the sustain isn't as good, however the burst is better.

My fire sorc is: dunmer, IG, Alchemist (SnB back) and Trainee x5, paired with regen mundus and witch's brew. 1600 regen on x6 HA, x1 light (this is my alt so no cool undaunted)

Sits at 30k health in Cyrodiil, 35k magicka 16k stam, can hit upwards of 3.8k spell damage.

I also run shattering prison, it's a great pair with IG, absolute stam killer for your opponent, same with mines. Running dark conversion (HA passive return for stam and the large stam pool pairs nicely) heals for something like 5.5k in PvP.

Etc etc... very solid, as with any heavy build it has the potential to run into 20min duels

Xsorus

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Keep the skill how it is please. I personally use it and it is great for melting groups of bad players. It is super expensive as it should be for what it does, cost is fine. And good players should have np with it. When someone uses it against me I have no problems, as it is not a difficult skill to counter at all with just a little skillful play.

You mean it's easy to counter when someone without much skill uses it. Good luck escaping it when someone spams lotus fan, streak, or any other gap closer on you. The defense of it costs a lot so it should be an I win button is asinine. If the 2H ult was a guaranteed kill ult this forums would be flooded for it to be nerfed, and rightfully so. The EotS needs a nerf.

It does not need a nerf, it needs to be reverted to its old damage/duration model. People complained on pts it was bad and no one even considered its use in group play. Tbh its not even a shock to me that it is now a 1 shot kill zone when groups use it. Even with the old damage model EoTS is deadly.

This is incorrect, I pointed it out multiple times it was going to be used by zerg ball groups...and people still whined like idiots.

I agree with you even though i personally never saw your posts. Basically just waiting for the good ol Wrobel patch to come out.

It wouldn't be so bad if the people whining weren't the same idiots who whined about Steel Tornado Spamming....Cause you know...a Zerg Ball will never abuse a 10 freakin meter radius PBAE *grin*

Ashamray

Too easy ultimate, too easy combined with aoe roots and Negate. Didn't require right moment or tactic to use effectively - once launched, it brings you profit anyway. Yes, in solo\small scale somebody will escape using shadow image or streakstreakfuuuckstreak, but in massive battle many peeps will be hurt or dead.
My point is that super reliable ultie like this (I don't think it can be countered if user is decent) must be pretty mediocre in any cases. You guys like comparing EoTS with Dawnbreakek but the last one isn't 100% reliable: block is real and even miss is real due to ping and fps problems.

Sanct16

The version of EotS that was on PTS at first wouldn't see much use (even tho I agree that it wasn't as bad as people make it sound like but not worth running it over meteor/negate).

The biggest downside about destro ult is that you have to use a destrostaff.
For groupplay as DD you always gonna use dual wield on main bar for the extra spell damage and 5% extra damage from the dual wield passive. It also allows to use an undaunted set + vicious death + another 5p set. Slotting a destrostaff on the 2nd bar means that you have no reliable selfheal and you have no healingsprings either - which is the best heal when it comes to costefficiency.
Let's not forget that pvp isnt only about doing max damage but also about surviving.
The current destro ultimate is op - even strong enough to make it worth running dw/destro over dw/resto. However if the dps was lower, its questionable if you would get enough "burst" damage to kill enemies fast enough to justify giving up on restostaff.

We tried to use coordinated batswarms before which is about the same damage as storms prebuff but it never really worked great due to enemies having enough time to spread out etc so meteors + negates were better and some extra duration instead of the secondary effect wouldnt make EotS prebuff better than bats, especially considering the downside mentioned above and the fact that if you dont kill people in 5 seconds the rest will be too spread to deal effective damage.

The real problem is the design of the ultimate. As it does only damage its hard to find a good balance that doesn't make it either useless or op especially considering that batswarm does pretty much the same thing for way cheaper while also giving you either invis or heal. The only viable way to nerf it would be to reduce its duration to maybe 5 seconds. Will make it easier to counter it by ccing the caster, streaking away etc. Another way of course would be to reduce damage and give it some utility, like the ice one roots everyone in it each tick, fire makes everyone in it lose 10k resists, etc.

Anti_Virus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

^^^ Lightning staff sorc here.

Every time some DK sends me back three or four different fire projectiles or heavy attacks with love... My scorched backside switches right back to lightning.

Reflect is the one thing that makes me rage salty in this game. I haven't once asked for it to be nerfed though, because it makes the game more interesting than one big block-fest.

So yeah. Bite me all of you MDK's.

Well I mean you have mines so mine camp?

Relax i'm not attacking you if you think I am, but yeah I've allways prefered Lightning staff on my Sorc, not only is the heavy attack non reflectable but its undodgeable too.

It's great for in-between burst pressure, the only prob I found was that many of the tankier builds can use that down time for heals, and HA appreciates the resource return.

Going fire is new for me, and the sustain isn't as good, however the burst is better.

My fire sorc is: dunmer, IG, Alchemist (SnB back) and Trainee x5, paired with regen mundus and witch's brew. 1600 regen on x6 HA, x1 light (this is my alt so no cool undaunted)

Sits at 30k health in Cyrodiil, 35k magicka 16k stam, can hit upwards of 3.8k spell damage.

I also run shattering prison, it's a great pair with IG, absolute stam killer for your opponent, same with mines. Running dark conversion (HA passive return for stam and the large stam pool pairs nicely) heals for something like 5.5k in PvP.

Etc etc... very solid, as with any heavy build it has the potential to run into 20min duels

Nice build, I think more sorcs should consider heavy armor to gain a little bit more survivability.

And yeah if you land those fire staff heavies they hit hard.

Joy_Division

Sanct16 wrote: »

The version of EotS that was on PTS at first wouldn't see much use (even tho I agree that it wasn't as bad as people make it sound like but not worth running it over meteor/negate).

The biggest downside about destro ult is that you have to use a destrostaff.
For groupplay as DD you always gonna use dual wield on main bar for the extra spell damage and 5% extra damage from the dual wield passive. It also allows to use an undaunted set + vicious death + another 5p set. Slotting a destrostaff on the 2nd bar means that you have no reliable selfheal and you have no healingsprings either - which is the best heal when it comes to costefficiency.
Let's not forget that pvp isnt only about doing max damage but also about surviving.
The current destro ultimate is op - even strong enough to make it worth running dw/destro over dw/resto. However if the dps was lower, its questionable if you would get enough "burst" damage to kill enemies fast enough to justify giving up on restostaff.

We tried to use coordinated batswarms before which is about the same damage as storms prebuff but it never really worked great due to enemies having enough time to spread out etc so meteors + negates were better and some extra duration instead of the secondary effect wouldnt make EotS prebuff better than bats, especially considering the downside mentioned above and the fact that if you dont kill people in 5 seconds the rest will be too spread to deal effective damage.

The real problem is the design of the ultimate. As it does only damage its hard to find a good balance that doesn't make it either useless or op especially considering that batswarm does pretty much the same thing for way cheaper while also giving you either invis or heal. The only viable way to nerf it would be to reduce its duration to maybe 5 seconds. Will make it easier to counter it by ccing the caster, streaking away etc. Another way of course would be to reduce damage and give it some utility, like the ice one roots everyone in it each tick, fire makes everyone in it lose 10k resists, etc.

Stop making sense and instead post a rant about how dumb Wrobel is for being responsible for a noob OP I win button, even though the large majority of his customers thought it was still too weak.

Lava_Croft

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The version of EotS that was on PTS at first wouldn't see much use (even tho I agree that it wasn't as bad as people make it sound like but not worth running it over meteor/negate).

The biggest downside about destro ult is that you have to use a destrostaff.
For groupplay as DD you always gonna use dual wield on main bar for the extra spell damage and 5% extra damage from the dual wield passive. It also allows to use an undaunted set + vicious death + another 5p set. Slotting a destrostaff on the 2nd bar means that you have no reliable selfheal and you have no healingsprings either - which is the best heal when it comes to costefficiency.
Let's not forget that pvp isnt only about doing max damage but also about surviving.
The current destro ultimate is op - even strong enough to make it worth running dw/destro over dw/resto. However if the dps was lower, its questionable if you would get enough "burst" damage to kill enemies fast enough to justify giving up on restostaff.

We tried to use coordinated batswarms before which is about the same damage as storms prebuff but it never really worked great due to enemies having enough time to spread out etc so meteors + negates were better and some extra duration instead of the secondary effect wouldnt make EotS prebuff better than bats, especially considering the downside mentioned above and the fact that if you dont kill people in 5 seconds the rest will be too spread to deal effective damage.

The real problem is the design of the ultimate. As it does only damage its hard to find a good balance that doesn't make it either useless or op especially considering that batswarm does pretty much the same thing for way cheaper while also giving you either invis or heal. The only viable way to nerf it would be to reduce its duration to maybe 5 seconds. Will make it easier to counter it by ccing the caster, streaking away etc. Another way of course would be to reduce damage and give it some utility, like the ice one roots everyone in it each tick, fire makes everyone in it lose 10k resists, etc.

Stop making sense and instead post a rant about how dumb Wrobel is for being responsible for a noob OP I win button, even though the large majority of his customers thought it was still too weak.

That same large majority cried about how OP the 2-Handed Ultimate was.

Joy_Division

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The version of EotS that was on PTS at first wouldn't see much use (even tho I agree that it wasn't as bad as people make it sound like but not worth running it over meteor/negate).

The biggest downside about destro ult is that you have to use a destrostaff.
For groupplay as DD you always gonna use dual wield on main bar for the extra spell damage and 5% extra damage from the dual wield passive. It also allows to use an undaunted set + vicious death + another 5p set. Slotting a destrostaff on the 2nd bar means that you have no reliable selfheal and you have no healingsprings either - which is the best heal when it comes to costefficiency.
Let's not forget that pvp isnt only about doing max damage but also about surviving.
The current destro ultimate is op - even strong enough to make it worth running dw/destro over dw/resto. However if the dps was lower, its questionable if you would get enough "burst" damage to kill enemies fast enough to justify giving up on restostaff.

We tried to use coordinated batswarms before which is about the same damage as storms prebuff but it never really worked great due to enemies having enough time to spread out etc so meteors + negates were better and some extra duration instead of the secondary effect wouldnt make EotS prebuff better than bats, especially considering the downside mentioned above and the fact that if you dont kill people in 5 seconds the rest will be too spread to deal effective damage.

The real problem is the design of the ultimate. As it does only damage its hard to find a good balance that doesn't make it either useless or op especially considering that batswarm does pretty much the same thing for way cheaper while also giving you either invis or heal. The only viable way to nerf it would be to reduce its duration to maybe 5 seconds. Will make it easier to counter it by ccing the caster, streaking away etc. Another way of course would be to reduce damage and give it some utility, like the ice one roots everyone in it each tick, fire makes everyone in it lose 10k resists, etc.

Stop making sense and instead post a rant about how dumb Wrobel is for being responsible for a noob OP I win button, even though the large majority of his customers thought it was still too weak.

That same large majority cried about how OP the 2-Handed Ultimate was.

Correct. We just proves the ESO forums are eminently more qualified to balance this game than ZoS's developers.

/sarcasm

Strider_Roshin

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The version of EotS that was on PTS at first wouldn't see much use (even tho I agree that it wasn't as bad as people make it sound like but not worth running it over meteor/negate).

The biggest downside about destro ult is that you have to use a destrostaff.
For groupplay as DD you always gonna use dual wield on main bar for the extra spell damage and 5% extra damage from the dual wield passive. It also allows to use an undaunted set + vicious death + another 5p set. Slotting a destrostaff on the 2nd bar means that you have no reliable selfheal and you have no healingsprings either - which is the best heal when it comes to costefficiency.
Let's not forget that pvp isnt only about doing max damage but also about surviving.
The current destro ultimate is op - even strong enough to make it worth running dw/destro over dw/resto. However if the dps was lower, its questionable if you would get enough "burst" damage to kill enemies fast enough to justify giving up on restostaff.

We tried to use coordinated batswarms before which is about the same damage as storms prebuff but it never really worked great due to enemies having enough time to spread out etc so meteors + negates were better and some extra duration instead of the secondary effect wouldnt make EotS prebuff better than bats, especially considering the downside mentioned above and the fact that if you dont kill people in 5 seconds the rest will be too spread to deal effective damage.

The real problem is the design of the ultimate. As it does only damage its hard to find a good balance that doesn't make it either useless or op especially considering that batswarm does pretty much the same thing for way cheaper while also giving you either invis or heal. The only viable way to nerf it would be to reduce its duration to maybe 5 seconds. Will make it easier to counter it by ccing the caster, streaking away etc. Another way of course would be to reduce damage and give it some utility, like the ice one roots everyone in it each tick, fire makes everyone in it lose 10k resists, etc.

Stop making sense and instead post a rant about how dumb Wrobel is for being responsible for a noob OP I win button, even though the large majority of his customers thought it was still too weak.

That same large majority cried about how OP the 2-Handed Ultimate was.

The 2-Handed Ultimate, what's that?

Anti_Virus

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The version of EotS that was on PTS at first wouldn't see much use (even tho I agree that it wasn't as bad as people make it sound like but not worth running it over meteor/negate).

The biggest downside about destro ult is that you have to use a destrostaff.
For groupplay as DD you always gonna use dual wield on main bar for the extra spell damage and 5% extra damage from the dual wield passive. It also allows to use an undaunted set + vicious death + another 5p set. Slotting a destrostaff on the 2nd bar means that you have no reliable selfheal and you have no healingsprings either - which is the best heal when it comes to costefficiency.
Let's not forget that pvp isnt only about doing max damage but also about surviving.
The current destro ultimate is op - even strong enough to make it worth running dw/destro over dw/resto. However if the dps was lower, its questionable if you would get enough "burst" damage to kill enemies fast enough to justify giving up on restostaff.

We tried to use coordinated batswarms before which is about the same damage as storms prebuff but it never really worked great due to enemies having enough time to spread out etc so meteors + negates were better and some extra duration instead of the secondary effect wouldnt make EotS prebuff better than bats, especially considering the downside mentioned above and the fact that if you dont kill people in 5 seconds the rest will be too spread to deal effective damage.

The real problem is the design of the ultimate. As it does only damage its hard to find a good balance that doesn't make it either useless or op especially considering that batswarm does pretty much the same thing for way cheaper while also giving you either invis or heal. The only viable way to nerf it would be to reduce its duration to maybe 5 seconds. Will make it easier to counter it by ccing the caster, streaking away etc. Another way of course would be to reduce damage and give it some utility, like the ice one roots everyone in it each tick, fire makes everyone in it lose 10k resists, etc.

Stop making sense and instead post a rant about how dumb Wrobel is for being responsible for a noob OP I win button, even though the large majority of his customers thought it was still too weak.

That same large majority cried about how OP the 2-Handed Ultimate was.

The 2-Handed Ultimate, what's that?

2h ult needs a cost reduction, if destro ulti doesn't get adjusted.

Lord-Otto

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

steussy wrote: »

No. Does not need a nerf. Note to ZOS, please do not give into the whiners of this game. Magicka classes have taken too many hits as it is.

They gave into whiners. That's why it's OP. If ZOS simply had ignore the whining to begin with we wouldn't have such a ridiculously OP move in this game.

The same can be said about Proxy Det nerf.
The fact of the matter stands, magicka builds needed a counter to gap closers, dodgers and blockers. Just like stamina builds have shield breaker, can dodge/reflect projectiles and can force melee range upon you.

Eye of the Storm and Soul Assault are necessary. Even if you wanted to tone down the damage, it would have to fulfil the same role, making melee range lethal or executing you when you lost your momentum. Otherwise you could delete it.

Let's give it a thought.
If we were to justify deleting these two ults in regards to fairness, here's what magicks builds should get in return:

A gap OPENER, a move that knocks you back 22 metres, snareroots you and ignores CC immunity.
Break free and sprint and dodge with magicka. I say blocking and HoTs like Vigor should remain stamina, to compensate for shields. Note how dodge gives I-frames, unlike shields.
Dual staves. 22% damage boost for 2h staves.
Cost reduction perks for destro resto. Spellpower perk for light armor.
Blockbreaker set. Dodgebreaker set. Overall, just magicka versions of existing stamina sets.

Post is getting too long, but by now you should get the idea. Stamina has some significant advantages that counter magicka hard. We now got two counters to specific stamina builds. They were needed and you should learn to play around them.

Oh, and zergs playing EotS? I remember zergs rocking spamnado and gapclosing you to death with spambush. I tell you the same I was told, when you face halfway competent players and your group is the minority, you should lose, anyway. Also, after all, stamina people wanted zerg bomb proxy nerfed. That's what you get. Buff Proxy, maybe?

Except proxy det was designed around killing large groups, NOT single target it still works as intended.

And yeah I remeber the perma bat DKs and sorcs that impulse spamed through zergs.

Which kept zergs in check.
Proxy now only works on a very specific build on a very specific class. Which leaves something to be desired, which EotS delivers.

Proxy det works well against zergs, and multiple opponents. The eye of the storm outperforms every single target ultimate in the game, and it's a mobile ultimate with a massive AoE. You have no sense of balance if you don't believe this ability needs to be reverted back to its original form.

Making a joke here or what? No one uses Proxy, it is USELESS if not specialized in bombing, which only magblades can really pull off. God, you really live in your little dream bubble.
EotS does not outperform five Incap Strikes. Maybe it's more powerful than one Incap Strike, but for quintuple the cost and no other benefit? Mind you that every single Incap is potentially lethal with NB's innate burst potential, whereas EotS does not combo well. Blindly nerfing it renders it useless and pointless because of that. And Dawnbreaker of Smiting is still very much a thing. If EotS goes down, it better take Incap and DoS with it.

Strider_Roshin

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

steussy wrote: »

No. Does not need a nerf. Note to ZOS, please do not give into the whiners of this game. Magicka classes have taken too many hits as it is.

They gave into whiners. That's why it's OP. If ZOS simply had ignore the whining to begin with we wouldn't have such a ridiculously OP move in this game.

The same can be said about Proxy Det nerf.
The fact of the matter stands, magicka builds needed a counter to gap closers, dodgers and blockers. Just like stamina builds have shield breaker, can dodge/reflect projectiles and can force melee range upon you.

Eye of the Storm and Soul Assault are necessary. Even if you wanted to tone down the damage, it would have to fulfil the same role, making melee range lethal or executing you when you lost your momentum. Otherwise you could delete it.

Let's give it a thought.
If we were to justify deleting these two ults in regards to fairness, here's what magicks builds should get in return:

A gap OPENER, a move that knocks you back 22 metres, snareroots you and ignores CC immunity.
Break free and sprint and dodge with magicka. I say blocking and HoTs like Vigor should remain stamina, to compensate for shields. Note how dodge gives I-frames, unlike shields.
Dual staves. 22% damage boost for 2h staves.
Cost reduction perks for destro resto. Spellpower perk for light armor.
Blockbreaker set. Dodgebreaker set. Overall, just magicka versions of existing stamina sets.

Post is getting too long, but by now you should get the idea. Stamina has some significant advantages that counter magicka hard. We now got two counters to specific stamina builds. They were needed and you should learn to play around them.

Oh, and zergs playing EotS? I remember zergs rocking spamnado and gapclosing you to death with spambush. I tell you the same I was told, when you face halfway competent players and your group is the minority, you should lose, anyway. Also, after all, stamina people wanted zerg bomb proxy nerfed. That's what you get. Buff Proxy, maybe?

Except proxy det was designed around killing large groups, NOT single target it still works as intended.

And yeah I remeber the perma bat DKs and sorcs that impulse spamed through zergs.

Which kept zergs in check.
Proxy now only works on a very specific build on a very specific class. Which leaves something to be desired, which EotS delivers.

Proxy det works well against zergs, and multiple opponents. The eye of the storm outperforms every single target ultimate in the game, and it's a mobile ultimate with a massive AoE. You have no sense of balance if you don't believe this ability needs to be reverted back to its original form.

Making a joke here or what? No one uses Proxy, it is USELESS if not specialized in bombing, which only magblades can really pull off. God, you really live in your little dream bubble.
EotS does not outperform five Incap Strikes. Maybe it's more powerful than one Incap Strike, but for quintuple the cost and no other benefit? Mind you that every single Incap is potentially lethal with NB's innate burst potential, whereas EotS does not combo well. Blindly nerfing it renders it useless and pointless because of that. And Dawnbreaker of Smiting is still very much a thing. If EotS goes down, it better take Incap and DoS with it.

Incap hits one opponent, Dawnbreaker hits a cone, EotS hits everyone within 10 meters in a 360 degree radius. You're not in the position to be deciding what's balanced, and what isn't if you're comparing the strength of an AoE that's not dodge-able, block-able, or interrupt-able that hits everything around you within 10 meters to something that is block-able, dodge-able, and can hit only one opponent.

Waffennacht

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

steussy wrote: »

No. Does not need a nerf. Note to ZOS, please do not give into the whiners of this game. Magicka classes have taken too many hits as it is.

They gave into whiners. That's why it's OP. If ZOS simply had ignore the whining to begin with we wouldn't have such a ridiculously OP move in this game.

The same can be said about Proxy Det nerf.
The fact of the matter stands, magicka builds needed a counter to gap closers, dodgers and blockers. Just like stamina builds have shield breaker, can dodge/reflect projectiles and can force melee range upon you.

Eye of the Storm and Soul Assault are necessary. Even if you wanted to tone down the damage, it would have to fulfil the same role, making melee range lethal or executing you when you lost your momentum. Otherwise you could delete it.

Let's give it a thought.
If we were to justify deleting these two ults in regards to fairness, here's what magicks builds should get in return:

A gap OPENER, a move that knocks you back 22 metres, snareroots you and ignores CC immunity.
Break free and sprint and dodge with magicka. I say blocking and HoTs like Vigor should remain stamina, to compensate for shields. Note how dodge gives I-frames, unlike shields.
Dual staves. 22% damage boost for 2h staves.
Cost reduction perks for destro resto. Spellpower perk for light armor.
Blockbreaker set. Dodgebreaker set. Overall, just magicka versions of existing stamina sets.

Post is getting too long, but by now you should get the idea. Stamina has some significant advantages that counter magicka hard. We now got two counters to specific stamina builds. They were needed and you should learn to play around them.

Oh, and zergs playing EotS? I remember zergs rocking spamnado and gapclosing you to death with spambush. I tell you the same I was told, when you face halfway competent players and your group is the minority, you should lose, anyway. Also, after all, stamina people wanted zerg bomb proxy nerfed. That's what you get. Buff Proxy, maybe?

Except proxy det was designed around killing large groups, NOT single target it still works as intended.

And yeah I remeber the perma bat DKs and sorcs that impulse spamed through zergs.

Which kept zergs in check.
Proxy now only works on a very specific build on a very specific class. Which leaves something to be desired, which EotS delivers.

Proxy det works well against zergs, and multiple opponents. The eye of the storm outperforms every single target ultimate in the game, and it's a mobile ultimate with a massive AoE. You have no sense of balance if you don't believe this ability needs to be reverted back to its original form.

Making a joke here or what? No one uses Proxy, it is USELESS if not specialized in bombing, which only magblades can really pull off. God, you really live in your little dream bubble.
EotS does not outperform five Incap Strikes. Maybe it's more powerful than one Incap Strike, but for quintuple the cost and no other benefit? Mind you that every single Incap is potentially lethal with NB's innate burst potential, whereas EotS does not combo well. Blindly nerfing it renders it useless and pointless because of that. And Dawnbreaker of Smiting is still very much a thing. If EotS goes down, it better take Incap and DoS with it.

Incap hits one opponent, Dawnbreaker hits a cone, EotS hits everyone within 10 meters in a 360 degree radius. You're not in the position to be deciding what's balanced, and what isn't if you're comparing the strength of an AoE that's not dodge-able, block-able, or interrupt-able that hits everything around you within 10 meters to something that is block-able, dodge-able, and can hit only one opponent.

But you're then saying abilities should be based and balanced around group PvP play and stats show that's in the vast minority of the game.

GreenSoup2HoT

Waffennacht wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

steussy wrote: »

No. Does not need a nerf. Note to ZOS, please do not give into the whiners of this game. Magicka classes have taken too many hits as it is.

They gave into whiners. That's why it's OP. If ZOS simply had ignore the whining to begin with we wouldn't have such a ridiculously OP move in this game.

The same can be said about Proxy Det nerf.
The fact of the matter stands, magicka builds needed a counter to gap closers, dodgers and blockers. Just like stamina builds have shield breaker, can dodge/reflect projectiles and can force melee range upon you.

Eye of the Storm and Soul Assault are necessary. Even if you wanted to tone down the damage, it would have to fulfil the same role, making melee range lethal or executing you when you lost your momentum. Otherwise you could delete it.

Let's give it a thought.
If we were to justify deleting these two ults in regards to fairness, here's what magicks builds should get in return:

A gap OPENER, a move that knocks you back 22 metres, snareroots you and ignores CC immunity.
Break free and sprint and dodge with magicka. I say blocking and HoTs like Vigor should remain stamina, to compensate for shields. Note how dodge gives I-frames, unlike shields.
Dual staves. 22% damage boost for 2h staves.
Cost reduction perks for destro resto. Spellpower perk for light armor.
Blockbreaker set. Dodgebreaker set. Overall, just magicka versions of existing stamina sets.

Post is getting too long, but by now you should get the idea. Stamina has some significant advantages that counter magicka hard. We now got two counters to specific stamina builds. They were needed and you should learn to play around them.

Oh, and zergs playing EotS? I remember zergs rocking spamnado and gapclosing you to death with spambush. I tell you the same I was told, when you face halfway competent players and your group is the minority, you should lose, anyway. Also, after all, stamina people wanted zerg bomb proxy nerfed. That's what you get. Buff Proxy, maybe?

Except proxy det was designed around killing large groups, NOT single target it still works as intended.

And yeah I remeber the perma bat DKs and sorcs that impulse spamed through zergs.

Which kept zergs in check.
Proxy now only works on a very specific build on a very specific class. Which leaves something to be desired, which EotS delivers.

Proxy det works well against zergs, and multiple opponents. The eye of the storm outperforms every single target ultimate in the game, and it's a mobile ultimate with a massive AoE. You have no sense of balance if you don't believe this ability needs to be reverted back to its original form.

Making a joke here or what? No one uses Proxy, it is USELESS if not specialized in bombing, which only magblades can really pull off. God, you really live in your little dream bubble.
EotS does not outperform five Incap Strikes. Maybe it's more powerful than one Incap Strike, but for quintuple the cost and no other benefit? Mind you that every single Incap is potentially lethal with NB's innate burst potential, whereas EotS does not combo well. Blindly nerfing it renders it useless and pointless because of that. And Dawnbreaker of Smiting is still very much a thing. If EotS goes down, it better take Incap and DoS with it.

Incap hits one opponent, Dawnbreaker hits a cone, EotS hits everyone within 10 meters in a 360 degree radius. You're not in the position to be deciding what's balanced, and what isn't if you're comparing the strength of an AoE that's not dodge-able, block-able, or interrupt-able that hits everything around you within 10 meters to something that is block-able, dodge-able, and can hit only one opponent.

But you're then saying abilities should be based and balanced around group PvP play and stats show that's in the vast minority of the game.

The ultimate should be reverted back to its old damage model, simple as that. In group play it will still be a monster... but being able to click one button, jump into 10 and murder them all is pretty unbalanced if you ask me.

At least with Proxi bombs, it was a combo with an ultimate and specifically spec'd for maximum damage and potenail to do so. That same build is not even that effective anymore and its designed to kill groups.

Now we have 1 AOE ultimate thats such a faceroll that you dont even need to be a proxi bomber.


I understand magicka players defending it considering how imbalance pvp is currently but this ultimate is not balanced and neither is a lot of the sets stamina players have access to.

This is exactly what happend when proxi was buffed. It was obviously over-tuned, you had 1 proxi bomber jumping into groups of 20+ wiping them all with vicious death. Now it is pretty balanced if you ask me. We just gotta let magicka users have there fun and recieve the balance patch that brings everything back into equilibrium while at the same time creating another monster.

Waffennacht

@GreenSoup2HoT poxy det is now completely unplayable in PvE, completely worthless in small scale PvP, again you feel it's balanced because you're only looking at it from a group PvP stand point.

GreenSoup2HoT

Waffennacht wrote: »

@GreenSoup2HoT poxy det is now completely unplayable in PvE, completely worthless in small scale PvP, again you feel it's balanced because you're only looking at it from a group PvP stand point.

its still a pretty good ultimate for solo play. an ultimate that does as much damage as batswarm with twice the duration and range is nothing to laugh about. sure it has a high cost but that just means you make sure you capitalize on it.

in its current state, an ultimate doing twice as much as bats while being fire damage against vamps is pretty insane.

pcar944

I'd like a moment to apologize to all the people I have killed on PC NA TF server with my vicious death/proxy/destroy ulti

no wait, I am not sorry

DeanTheCat

How about this as a compromise between the two sides?

- Destruction Staff ultimate's cost gets reduced to 175
- Base damage of the ultimate is reduced by 25%, but the ultimate now ignores armour.
- Eye of the Storm morph has a further damage reduction of 20% per tick (So 45% damage reduction), but now lasts an additional 2 seconds and is blockable.
- Elemental Rage morph now lasts an additional 3 seconds.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Creates a Magicka based counter to heavy armour, while increasing the viability of medium and light armour
- Reduces the burst damage from EotS, while keeping the overall damage similar and superior to devouring swarm.
- Creates counterplay to the EotS morph, while keeping the other morph as high damage area denial.

Your thoughts?

leepalmer95

DeanTheCat wrote: »

How about this as a compromise between the two sides?

- Destruction Staff ultimate's cost gets reduced to 175
- Base damage of the ultimate is reduced by 25%, but the ultimate now ignores armour.
- Eye of the Storm morph has a further damage reduction of 20% per tick (So 45% damage reduction), but now lasts an additional 2 seconds and is blockable.
- Elemental Rage morph now lasts an additional 3 seconds.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Creates a Magicka based counter to heavy armour, while increasing the viability of medium and light armour
- Reduces the burst damage from EotS, while keeping the overall damage similar and superior to devouring swarm.
- Creates counterplay to the EotS morph, while keeping the other morph as high damage area denial.

Your thoughts?

Or just make it blockable and reduce eye morph damage by 20% easy.

The-Baconator

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@GreenSoup2HoT poxy det is now completely unplayable in PvE, completely worthless in small scale PvP, again you feel it's balanced because you're only looking at it from a group PvP stand point.

its still a pretty good ultimate for solo play. an ultimate that does as much damage as batswarm with twice the duration and range is nothing to laugh about. sure it has a high cost but that just means you make sure you capitalize on it.

in its current state, an ultimate doing twice as much as bats while being fire damage against vamps is pretty insane.

The problem with half the damage and double the duration is that without the stupid OP damage you would never be able to take advantage of the full 12 seconds unless you were in the process of zerging people down at +5:1 odds. If they want to significantly reduce the damage they need to think of some secondary utility effects or the ult will just go back to being useless for over 90% of the playerbase and borderline useless for the other 10%.

Lord-Otto

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

How about this as a compromise between the two sides?

- Destruction Staff ultimate's cost gets reduced to 175
- Base damage of the ultimate is reduced by 25%, but the ultimate now ignores armour.
- Eye of the Storm morph has a further damage reduction of 20% per tick (So 45% damage reduction), but now lasts an additional 2 seconds and is blockable.
- Elemental Rage morph now lasts an additional 3 seconds.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Creates a Magicka based counter to heavy armour, while increasing the viability of medium and light armour
- Reduces the burst damage from EotS, while keeping the overall damage similar and superior to devouring swarm.
- Creates counterplay to the EotS morph, while keeping the other morph as high damage area denial.

Your thoughts?

Or just make it blockable and reduce eye morph damage by 20% easy.

No. Sorry, but it MUST be unblockable, that's the point. Meteor and Soul Assault are easily blockable already. Incap and Dawnbreaker are theoretically blockable, but since you can animation cancel or simply let lag do that for you, it usually hits unblocked. Mag builds need a high-powered, unmitigatable ult to compete.
If we had instant damage upon activation and a DoT after two seconds, it would be okay to make it blockable, but then what's the point? Might as well use the weaker, but cheaper Dawnbreaker.

Lava_Croft

Lord-Otto wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

How about this as a compromise between the two sides?

- Destruction Staff ultimate's cost gets reduced to 175
- Base damage of the ultimate is reduced by 25%, but the ultimate now ignores armour.
- Eye of the Storm morph has a further damage reduction of 20% per tick (So 45% damage reduction), but now lasts an additional 2 seconds and is blockable.
- Elemental Rage morph now lasts an additional 3 seconds.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Creates a Magicka based counter to heavy armour, while increasing the viability of medium and light armour
- Reduces the burst damage from EotS, while keeping the overall damage similar and superior to devouring swarm.
- Creates counterplay to the EotS morph, while keeping the other morph as high damage area denial.

Your thoughts?

Or just make it blockable and reduce eye morph damage by 20% easy.

No. Sorry, but it MUST be unblockable, that's the point. Meteor and Soul Assault are easily blockable already. Incap and Dawnbreaker are theoretically blockable, but since you can animation cancel or simply let lag do that for you, it usually hits unblocked. Mag builds need a high-powered, unmitigatable ult to compete.
If we had instant damage upon activation and a DoT after two seconds, it would be okay to make it dodgeable, but then what's the point? Might as well use the weaker, but cheaper Dawnbreaker.

So with all your talking about how Magicka should be able to compete, I guess you also think that Stamina should be able to compete with Magicka when it comes to healing abilities?

I'll just completely ignore the fact that Eye of Bullcrap is a few magnitutes better than any Ultimate currently in the game, no matter if it's Magicka or Stamina based.

Lord-Otto

That's simply not right, Dawnbreaker is still very strong and Incap very cheap.
Yes, magicka builds need something to deal with permadodgers and people blocking the highly-telegraphed burst. If you didn't learn that after Brotherhood hit, I dunno, man...
Your healing is strong. Vigor and Rally are unusually strong HoTs. Combined with the i-frames of dodge and shuffle, the (cc-)mitigation of block and the inexpensive break-free capabilities of stam builds, it makes for solid defense. Templars aside, mag builds have only received nerfs to defense, especially shields. And for shields there's even shieldbreaker, which is like a permanent EotS effect in regards to unmitigatable damage.

Look, the point here I'm making is that mag builds need something to deal with block and dodge. EotS is balanced for the current proc era. Should it get nerfed, it must retain its unmitigatable properties, because mag builds can't fight dodge/block well. We know that 100%. So, the damage must be balanced with care.
I personally would take a magical Dawnbreaker of Smiting over that any day, though. Guaranteed.

Anti_Virus

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

Strider_Roshin

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

Anti_Virus

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lord-Otto

What do you mean "nerf" to shields?

He means that horrible nerf they did to the bone shield in the PTS. Unless he's referring to the deceased duration to hardened ward; which didn't affect any decent sorc. It's the scrubby ones that mainly suffered. Other than that damage shields, they buffed harness magicka so that it works against all damage types. Sounds like an overall buff to the magicka community to me.

Lol, get ready for him to defend having to stack shields and how horrible it is to have 3 dmg shields with free impen.