anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »@anitajoneb17_ESO Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.KoshkaMurka wrote: »First of all, you can do acceptable dps without full set of vr16 gear and perfect race. For example, I was able to pull 20+k on magicka wood elf in vr14 Martial Knowledge set. Something like 10-15k is possible to achieve with minimal effort and is enough to beat daily dungeons without issues.../...2-5k dps is acceptable for full-time tanks, but not for dds.
Just reading those two quotes... on one hand the addon author claims that 10-15K is a figure coming from an "elitist dreamworld"... and 4-5K is what should be expected from any battle leveled DPS in a vet dungeon where you encounter many DDs that pull 2K (which I find very hard to believe...)... on the other hand another player consider 10K to be a minimal requirement... (I tend to agree with that).
All this imho shows how wide mileages vary when it comes to "acceptable DPS" or "minimum requirements", and the chaos that such huge differences will lead to when combined with the use of this addon.Even my last group in BC wiped at least 5 times, but they seemed nice, did what they could and nobody left, so I didn't really care. But I don't go in dungeons with the expectation of even getting a full group to begin with, either someone if afk or leaves instantly. That's the real problem imho, not some very rare people using this addon to maybe annoy others. Waiting 20min just to stand alone in the dungeon is what may make people leave the game.
Not sure your addon will encourage more people to use the group finder and PUG, though... and it's not going to help against people who queued up for a dungeon but drop out (probably because the finder took too long and they have no time left to actually run it).I made an account purely to log in to comment on this discussion, as an "elitist" pve player (stormproof/leaderboards etc) I can safely say i've done quite literally thousands of hours of pve. as a user of this add-on I will say that I got it for just what it was designed to do, to look at the individual players dps. My personal "rule of thumb" is to take what is Optimal for a character then divide it by half and then divide that by half and if the player (my other dps for instance) isn't meeting those numbers then I will drop from the team. For clarity that means that a player has to do 25% of his characters ability, I find this to be the minimal requirements to complete something as simple as a pledge/dsa etc.
Some will perhaps call this too judging, or too elitist(as you will). The simple fact is that we (the players) slot for a combat environment as specific roles as part of a collective team. I (as a dps) certainly wouldn't pick up a restoration staff and slot as a healer because I felt like it. Not only would it be silly it would be dangerous and would almost assuredly end in ragequits(For good reason). This addon does nothing more then shed some light on a players potential shortcomings so that the player (with a healthy mindset and not a defensive one) can know he is lacking and take steps to improve.
In my view of this add-on it actually helps the community out because it no longer requires the glaring scrutiny of your first endgame pve guild, where they will, more often then not, tear apart your build/CP/etc etc to make you a better player. That can be a bit overwhelming and I understand that ( though still think its necessary). This addon means it's simply not needed and players can correct their mistakes in the privacy and security of their own pace.
Thank you very much for taking the time to post your opinion, we need as many contributions as possible here.
I particularly appreciate that you base your expectations on the dungeon's requirement and NOT on your personal capabilities, and also that, in case you believe that someone will not be up to the task, you will drop out (instead of kicking). You're the first one with that attitude in this entire thread.
If everyone was as mature and respectful as you are, I'd welcome this addon. Needless to say that I doubt that very much, but it's nice to know that there are some of your kind around.
On a side note (looking at ZOS this time) : I think it is extremely important that people can correct their mistakes in the privacy and security of their own pace, and for that, we need training dummies.
.
Nice to see you've finally managed to be open to the possibility of this addon being good for the community as Long as the player base dosent abuse it. That's all I've been asking for since the start. And yes I'd like training dummies too.
However for the time being I find wrothgar mammoths tend to be good for target practice lol.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »@anitajoneb17_ESO Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.KoshkaMurka wrote: »First of all, you can do acceptable dps without full set of vr16 gear and perfect race. For example, I was able to pull 20+k on magicka wood elf in vr14 Martial Knowledge set. Something like 10-15k is possible to achieve with minimal effort and is enough to beat daily dungeons without issues.../...2-5k dps is acceptable for full-time tanks, but not for dds.
Just reading those two quotes... on one hand the addon author claims that 10-15K is a figure coming from an "elitist dreamworld"... and 4-5K is what should be expected from any battle leveled DPS in a vet dungeon where you encounter many DDs that pull 2K (which I find very hard to believe...)... on the other hand another player consider 10K to be a minimal requirement... (I tend to agree with that).
All this imho shows how wide mileages vary when it comes to "acceptable DPS" or "minimum requirements", and the chaos that such huge differences will lead to when combined with the use of this addon.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »@anitajoneb17_ESO Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.KoshkaMurka wrote: »First of all, you can do acceptable dps without full set of vr16 gear and perfect race. For example, I was able to pull 20+k on magicka wood elf in vr14 Martial Knowledge set. Something like 10-15k is possible to achieve with minimal effort and is enough to beat daily dungeons without issues.../...2-5k dps is acceptable for full-time tanks, but not for dds.
Just reading those two quotes... on one hand the addon author claims that 10-15K is a figure coming from an "elitist dreamworld"... and 4-5K is what should be expected from any battle leveled DPS in a vet dungeon where you encounter many DDs that pull 2K (which I find very hard to believe...)... on the other hand another player consider 10K to be a minimal requirement... (I tend to agree with that).
All this imho shows how wide mileages vary when it comes to "acceptable DPS" or "minimum requirements", and the chaos that such huge differences will lead to when combined with the use of this addon.Even my last group in BC wiped at least 5 times, but they seemed nice, did what they could and nobody left, so I didn't really care. But I don't go in dungeons with the expectation of even getting a full group to begin with, either someone if afk or leaves instantly. That's the real problem imho, not some very rare people using this addon to maybe annoy others. Waiting 20min just to stand alone in the dungeon is what may make people leave the game.
Not sure your addon will encourage more people to use the group finder and PUG, though... and it's not going to help against people who queued up for a dungeon but drop out (probably because the finder took too long and they have no time left to actually run it).I made an account purely to log in to comment on this discussion, as an "elitist" pve player (stormproof/leaderboards etc) I can safely say i've done quite literally thousands of hours of pve. as a user of this add-on I will say that I got it for just what it was designed to do, to look at the individual players dps. My personal "rule of thumb" is to take what is Optimal for a character then divide it by half and then divide that by half and if the player (my other dps for instance) isn't meeting those numbers then I will drop from the team. For clarity that means that a player has to do 25% of his characters ability, I find this to be the minimal requirements to complete something as simple as a pledge/dsa etc.
Some will perhaps call this too judging, or too elitist(as you will). The simple fact is that we (the players) slot for a combat environment as specific roles as part of a collective team. I (as a dps) certainly wouldn't pick up a restoration staff and slot as a healer because I felt like it. Not only would it be silly it would be dangerous and would almost assuredly end in ragequits(For good reason). This addon does nothing more then shed some light on a players potential shortcomings so that the player (with a healthy mindset and not a defensive one) can know he is lacking and take steps to improve.
In my view of this add-on it actually helps the community out because it no longer requires the glaring scrutiny of your first endgame pve guild, where they will, more often then not, tear apart your build/CP/etc etc to make you a better player. That can be a bit overwhelming and I understand that ( though still think its necessary). This addon means it's simply not needed and players can correct their mistakes in the privacy and security of their own pace.
Thank you very much for taking the time to post your opinion, we need as many contributions as possible here.
I particularly appreciate that you base your expectations on the dungeon's requirement and NOT on your personal capabilities, and also that, in case you believe that someone will not be up to the task, you will drop out (instead of kicking). You're the first one with that attitude in this entire thread.
If everyone was as mature and respectful as you are, I'd welcome this addon. Needless to say that I doubt that very much, but it's nice to know that there are some of your kind around.
On a side note (looking at ZOS this time) : I think it is extremely important that people can correct their mistakes in the privacy and security of their own pace, and for that, we need training dummies.
.
Nice to see you've finally managed to be open to the possibility of this addon being good for the community as Long as the player base dosent abuse it. That's all I've been asking for since the start. And yes I'd like training dummies too.
However for the time being I find wrothgar mammoths tend to be good for target practice lol.
Vangy, I'm not going to comment any more on this thread. I appreciate all who have, though...including you . I would like those reading to know that some of the people I play with use this addon. I've really not had much problem with that. But as someone who has barely used addons at all, my goal has always been as a healer "if I can keep everyone alive while dpsing as much as I can" then I've done well. I've never needed an addon to judge my heals or dps. And yet, I've always been okay with those wanting them.
However, recently a couple of people I know spoke up about feeling uncomfortable with this addon. And they were immediately shot down by those using it. So they don't speak up about it anymore. I'm guessing by some of the intimidating tones in this thread...the name callings, etc., that some are very hesitant to say anything. So that is one reason why I've been so vocal here until now.
Anyways, I'm too busy and enjoy playing the game too much to spend much more time on these forums. See you in game.
Unbelievable... 17 pages already of inconclusive discussion where everybody thinks that the right is on his side.
Surely this addon has its advantages and disadvantages. Everything depends on how actually people use it.
It's good when it's only for comparison of my DPS to DPS of other players just to be able to improve my stats when I see they are much lower than the average. But of course it's my decision to improve this or not and I cannot be judged for this reason anyway. If it bothers me, I will change it (especially if I see it's actually possible), but if I'm not focused on trying to have possibly the highest DPS in game, it's only my bussiness which nobody should care about. It's my game and my character.
But if somebody kicks me out of the group because of it, then this addon is even more useful for me cause it enables me to separate from people who I wouldn't want to do the dungeons with anyway.
I see some people take this game too seriously and they are focused not on enjoying the game and having fun, but on having the highest numbers which is lame.
KoshkaMurka wrote: »Dps requirements are not a matter of opinion.
Unbelievable... 17 pages already of inconclusive discussion where everybody thinks that the right is on his side.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Dps requirements are not a matter of opinion.
True, but the issue is that people using this addon will kick/select people not based on objective requirements, but on what they think is required. And if they think that 20K is required, they will kick people who do a respectable 15K. Do you honestly think people will go back to group finder when they have been treated this way ?
KoshkaMurka wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Dps requirements are not a matter of opinion.
True, but the issue is that people using this addon will kick/select people not based on objective requirements, but on what they think is required. And if they think that 20K is required, they will kick people who do a respectable 15K. Do you honestly think people will go back to group finder when they have been treated this way ?
I know that sometimes a pug group might be absolutely awful.
But the addon doesnt make any difference imo... These people were acting like jerks without an addon as well, and its pretty easy to calculate another dd's dps if you know your own dps and boss' amount of hp.
Some people are just stupid. Occasionaly I'm getting kicked for being a nb tank (even when I link no-death and speedrun achievements), sometimes teammates are not happy with my dd's 18k hp (even though my dps is higher than 20k and I rarely die).
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Just reading those two quotes... on one hand the addon author claims that 10-15K is a figure coming from an "elitist dreamworld"
Oh the irony!anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Are you that desperate that you need to twist every word onto your side of this discussion ?
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Dps requirements are not a matter of opinion.
True, but the issue is that people using this addon will kick/select people not based on objective requirements, but on what they think is required. And if they think that 20K is required, they will kick people who do a respectable 15K. Do you honestly think people will go back to group finder when they have been treated this way ?
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
@anitajoneb17_ESO Oh come on, now it gets pathetic. The post I quoted from you DIDN'T EVEN INCLUDE ANY DPS NUMBERS AT ALL, how do you even get the idea that I could have meant that? Stop twisting words.
I said it's your "elitist" (and I mean the negative kind here) dreamworld where everybody is so good so it doesn't matter even if one DD is afk even in vet-dungeons. That's just not the case AT ALL.
Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.
Oh the irony!
You say 5k is expected from a battle leveld DD, seems reasonable, I do that if the fight allows it, but it's rare to see other do over 3k for me,
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'll just quote you again, everyone can see for himself :
I need to improve so I do even more than 60% of the groups dmg, seems reasonable.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »if you really do 5K battle-leveled, (which is what YOU say) then you should put some efforts into improving yourself, instead of writing an add-on that will test other DPS teaming up with you to see if they can compensate for you.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »In our next incremental patch, we'll be including a fix so any addon that assigns names to combat events that don't involve the player will no longer be able to do so.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'll just quote you again, everyone can see for himself :
@anitajoneb17_ESO Keywords are "not" and "V16". 10k or more is not even remotely normal there, if it even exists.
And sorry, the 5k was really still you quoting me, but again, that's what seems to be the maximum what battle leveld DDs do, I haven't seen a single one do more since I play this game again.
But yeah, I need to improve so I do even more than 60% of the groups dmg, seems reasonable.
KoshkaMurka wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'll just quote you again, everyone can see for himself :
@anitajoneb17_ESO Keywords are "not" and "V16". 10k or more is not even remotely normal there, if it even exists.
And sorry, the 5k was really still you quoting me, but again, that's what seems to be the maximum what battle leveld DDs do, I haven't seen a single one do more since I play this game again.
But yeah, I need to improve so I do even more than 60% of the groups dmg, seems reasonable.
Wait, do you mean lvl 10 dds without champion points?
KoshkaMurka wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Dps requirements are not a matter of opinion.
True, but the issue is that people using this addon will kick/select people not based on objective requirements, but on what they think is required. And if they think that 20K is required, they will kick people who do a respectable 15K. Do you honestly think people will go back to group finder when they have been treated this way ?
I know that sometimes a pug group might be absolutely awful.
But the addon doesnt make any difference imo... These people were acting like jerks without an addon as well, and its pretty easy to calculate another dd's dps if you know your own dps and boss' amount of hp.
Some people are just stupid. Occasionaly I'm getting kicked for being a nb tank (even when I link no-death and speedrun achievements), sometimes teammates are not happy with my dd's 18k hp (even though my dps is higher than 20k and I rarely die).
18-20k is just about right Hp imo for a dd lol. What they want u to have 24k hp?? Those people were just jerks man. Nb tanks are one of the best damage dealing tanks imo. Sap2win.
Also kicking a tank?? Given that it takes about an hour to find a pug one that's insane lol. I just add every decent tank I meet and send them a random Whisper about how fun it was to run with them. Now most of them are my regular go to people
KoshkaMurka wrote: »Wait, do you mean lvl 10 dds without champion points?
Gilliamtherogue wrote: »Not enough time to fix lag in Cyrodiil
Not enough time to fix broken skills/passives/combat issues
Not enough time to scale content before they change it for removal of VRs in another 6 months
Yet the second something good comes to us, whether it be a grind spot, a new gear setup, or an addon you have all the time in the world to fix it against our favor. The priorities at ZoS are so ridiculous.
KoshkaMurka wrote: »Wait, do you mean lvl 10 dds without champion points?
@KoshkaMurka Just what I encounter in non-vet LFG dungeons, I only play again since the F2P change fom time to time, so occasional LFG is all I do on the PvE side. My only higher char is the healer I raided with in the early days of this game, that one's V10.
But be it lvl10 or V10, seeing comparable dmg to that which I do with my lower level chars (which is 3-5k dps depending on the fight) is incredibly rare. Seeing the other DD below half of that is common though. I have 90 CP or something, so a few % more dmg, but that's it.
But anita ignored all that and just went on how it is normal to do 10k, and that a DD can also be afk np, that's just not true, and I'm perfectly sure also not in many (random) V16 groups. Hence why I called it "elitist" dreamworld, where everybody is so good.
She/he also said my 5k scaled is low, which just shows that she/he really lives in some kind of dreamworld.