It is a good addon i think the only players who don't like it are the one's that maybe need to update their builds or stop lying about their dps/hps cause now we can see the truth. I support the addon.

Another testimony by @BreacaT on another thread :

I try to be responsible and move out of the red and in fairness I'm a whole lot better than many out there. But sometimes I'm just to slow to respond or am not familiar with the boss mechanics. Other times, the lure of maintaining a good dps is just too much, especially given the insight provided by the 'group damage' add-on. Getting those extra 500 dps, even if I was to die, is not only useful for a willy-waving contest but also helps getting kicked from those elitist pug groups for being the 'under-performer'.

This poster mentioned being sarcastic, not sure in what sense, but in any case, it shows another potential negative effect of this addon : people all going for "DPS-race" and ignoring other play and dungeon mechanics.

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Destruent wrote: »

If you don't have enough DPS for the mechanic you will fail. Sometimes there are Adds you have to kill, if you can't you will get overwhelmed and fail.

Sometimes yes, but you also have plenty of game mechanics available to you to compensate for lower DPS.
Then people complain that dungeons get boring after a while, but that's their own fault, if they only ever play the same DPS-focused tactic. Which this addon will emphasize even more.

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Destruent wrote: »

If you have so much DPS, the boss won't even start its mechanic it's not the players fault or the fault of the addon. Why should we wait until the boss starts with the mechanic if it could be dead already?

That's not what I meant.
What I meant is that many players believe that high DPS is compulsory to complete the dungeons or raids when it's not. Just a few examples :
- 1st boss AA : if you can't burn it down straight away there's the yellow circles to protect you from the boss one-shot attack.
- In vetCoA there's the platform hopping if you cannot burn him on its first or second platform
- In vet Elden Hollow there's the interrupting of adds if you cannot outDPS their healing of the boss
- In vDSA last boss there's a "up-and-down" strategy if you can't nuke the battlemaster down before it launches adds

and so on.

In many cases (admittedly, not all, but most), "High DPS is required to complete the dungeon" is a false statement, it should state "High DPS is required to bypass the dungeon mechanics".
Problem is, most players don't even *know* these mechanics any more.

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anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Another testimony by @BreacaT on another thread :

I try to be responsible and move out of the red and in fairness I'm a whole lot better than many out there. But sometimes I'm just to slow to respond or am not familiar with the boss mechanics. Other times, the lure of maintaining a good dps is just too much, especially given the insight provided by the 'group damage' add-on. Getting those extra 500 dps, even if I was to die, is not only useful for a willy-waving contest but also helps getting kicked from those elitist pug groups for being the 'under-performer'.

This poster mentioned being sarcastic, not sure in what sense, but in any case, it shows another potential negative effect of this addon : people all going for "DPS-race" and ignoring other play and dungeon mechanics.

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Meaning, I don't take it seriously at all. Some of the guys I regularly group with run it and at first it was interesting to hear what 'percentage of total group damage' I was doing (or not), now I ask them not to tell me as I don't want to be part of that 'thing'. I've got pretty much the right skills and setup for my char/role, usually get my rotation right and if I feel like I'm doing a good-enough job then thats good enough for me.

BreacaT wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Another testimony by @BreacaT on another thread :

I try to be responsible and move out of the red and in fairness I'm a whole lot better than many out there. But sometimes I'm just to slow to respond or am not familiar with the boss mechanics. Other times, the lure of maintaining a good dps is just too much, especially given the insight provided by the 'group damage' add-on. Getting those extra 500 dps, even if I was to die, is not only useful for a willy-waving contest but also helps getting kicked from those elitist pug groups for being the 'under-performer'.

This poster mentioned being sarcastic, not sure in what sense, but in any case, it shows another potential negative effect of this addon : people all going for "DPS-race" and ignoring other play and dungeon mechanics.

.

Meaning, I don't take it seriously at all. Some of the guys I regularly group with run it and at first it was interesting to hear what 'percentage of total group damage' I was doing (or not), now I ask them not to tell me as I don't want to be part of that 'thing'. I've got pretty much the right skills and setup for my char/role, usually get my rotation right and if I feel like I'm doing a good-enough job then thats good enough for me.

Yes so we have established that the guys u regularly group with who run this addon clearly arent kicking you because you arent topping their dps charts. You are good and knowledgeable enough to play your role and pull decent dps/heals/tank whatever your role is and it seems they are respectful enough of your request to not hear how you fare on the charts. So i dont see this addon as a problem yes? Or did i miss something? So can we stop with the doomsaying prophecies of group finder being destroyed by elitists?

Thats all any player needs to do to not get kicked from pug groups with sane people who arent pricks. Yes that means dont wear heavy armor, spec into magicka and spam focused aim. (you might think im kidding but im not. Ive seen it happen once before and am still traumatized by it especially since he raged at me for telling him this wasnt the way to DD.) Obviously I had to kick him since he was snobbish. Other than that hardly anyone gets kicked by me or the people i run with. We only kick when we have no choice and party is hitting a dead wall. (only in vICP and vWGT.

Also vCOA with subpar dps is a pain especially when the healer has to have a minor fit of epilepsy trying to keep group up once 3 platforms are down. I just did the vet pledge today with my sorc pulling 25k dps and the other DD dead on platform 1.5. Healer was yelling in ts OMG OMG OMG OMG while frantically spamming BOL to keep me and the tank alive. ( DD was dead in a sad pool of lava where rez was impossible cos he got knocked off while happily spamming flurry and taking an unblocked hit from skoria). Was this fun for us? no. Did we kick him especially since we already knew his dps was crap since boss 1? no. This addon just told me i had to swap in hardened ward for valkyns since i pretty much knew platforms were gona be gone and my 16.5k health sorc wasnt going to survive a no platform encounter with valkyns. Party wipe saved by this addon.

So in short when one DD is subpar, either the heals or the other DD or the tank is going to have to pick up the slack. The least we can do is offer them the courtesy of knowing in advance they need to carry and not force them to wipe time and again without knowing why. Ofcourse this applies to any player who is subpar. The rest of the group would fare FARRRR better if they knew in advance that one of their group is a new player or a special snowflake who wants to DD in heavy armor.

Vangy wrote: »

BreacaT wrote: »

Meaning, I don't take it seriously at all. Some of the guys I regularly group with run it and at first it was interesting to hear what 'percentage of total group damage' I was doing (or not), now I ask them not to tell me as I don't want to be part of that 'thing'. I've got pretty much the right skills and setup for my char/role, usually get my rotation right and if I feel like I'm doing a good-enough job then thats good enough for me.

Yes so we have established that the guys u regularly group with who run this addon clearly arent kicking you because you arent topping their dps charts. You are good and knowledgeable enough to play your role and pull decent dps/heals/tank whatever your role is and it seems they are respectful enough of your request to not hear how you fare on the charts. So i dont see this addon as a problem yes? Or did i miss something? So can we stop with the doomsaying prophecies of group finder being destroyed by elitists?

Are you that desperate that you need to twist every word onto your side of this discussion ?
This is simply another interesting position towards this add-on : "don't need it, don't wanna be part of that "thing" and don't want to hear about it". But "don't care". Not everyone has to be 100% for or against.
Let people speak, for Akatosh's sake ! Please !

Vangy wrote: »

Also vCOA with subpar dps is a pain especially when the healer has to have a minor fit of epilepsy trying to keep group up once 3 platforms are down. I just did the vet pledge today with my sorc pulling 25k dps and the other DD dead on platform 1.5. Healer was yelling in ts OMG OMG OMG OMG while frantically spamming BOL to keep me and the tank alive. ( DD was dead in a sad pool of lava where rez was impossible cos he got knocked off while happily spamming flurry and taking an unblocked hit from skoria). Was this fun for us? no. Did we kick him especially since we already knew his dps was crap since boss 1? no. This addon just told me i had to swap in hardened ward for valkyns since i pretty much knew platforms were gona be gone and my 16.5k health sorc wasnt going to survive a no platform encounter with valkyns. Party wipe saved by this addon.

You needed both an addon and to reach Valkyn in order to find out that he wasn't the most efficient DPS and adjust ... ? Oh my... I don't need an addon to know when I have to put on hardened ward because the group's performance requires it.

I'm sorry it wasn't fun for you. I usually enjoy such moments when things get a little bit chaotic, leading us to actually play the game instead of the usual flawless run where you smash the same button in the same order in the same location, always.

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@helediron Keybinds were/are planned, an option to automatically adjust it to group size is a good idea. For now you can just use the chat commands. To change size quickly use e.g. "/gd b 4" for 4 bars. All commands work with only their first character, so "/gd s" and "/gd h" can be used for show and hide.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

oO...oO... my turn to ask "really" ? Aside from the two IC dungeons and vCOA, all other dungeons are clearable easily at v16 in vet and non vet versions even if the other DD is AFK !
Maybe you're focusing and relying too much on DPS and ignore other fighting techniques like interrupt, dodge-roll, etc... and cannot sustain any somewhat longer fights.
Take the Bogdan fight for instance, in "gold key" version : most people think that the DDS MUST out-DPS the healing provided by the white adds, but ignore that they can be interrupted...

@anitajoneb17_ESO Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.

Even my last group in BC wiped at least 5 times, but they seemed nice, did what they could and nobody left, so I didn't really care. But I don't go in dungeons with the expectation of even getting a full group to begin with, either someone if afk or leaves instantly. That's the real problem imho, not some very rare people using this addon to maybe annoy others. Waiting 20min just to stand alone in the dungeon is what may make people leave the game.

Vangy wrote: »

coolmodi wrote: »

@helediron Keybinds were/are planned, an option to automatically adjust it to group size is a good idea. For now you can just use the chat commands. To change size quickly use e.g. "/gd b 4" for 4 bars. All commands work with only their first character, so "/gd s" and "/gd h" can be used for show and hide.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

oO...oO... my turn to ask "really" ? Aside from the two IC dungeons and vCOA, all other dungeons are clearable easily at v16 in vet and non vet versions even if the other DD is AFK !
Maybe you're focusing and relying too much on DPS and ignore other fighting techniques like interrupt, dodge-roll, etc... and cannot sustain any somewhat longer fights.
Take the Bogdan fight for instance, in "gold key" version : most people think that the DDS MUST out-DPS the healing provided by the white adds, but ignore that they can be interrupted...

@anitajoneb17_ESO Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.

Even my last group in BC wiped at least 5 times, but they seemed nice, did what they could and nobody left, so I didn't really care. But I don't go in dungeons with the expectation of even getting a full group to begin with, either someone if afk or leaves instantly. That's the real problem imho, not some very rare people using this addon to maybe annoy others. Waiting 20min just to stand alone in the dungeon is what may make people leave the game.

What are you talking about man. Healers should last 10 minutes and the tank needs to be a demi-god but no one should ever know how the DPS are faring. Remember, if group wipes; ITS ALWAYS THE HEALERS FAULT. DD can be standing in red and pulling 5k dps but nope. No one should be able to tell accurately that this DD sucks. They should wipe 5 times and then slowly come to realise that their DD sucks. Also its ALWAYS the healers fault.... ah crap did i already say that? /sarcasm

/threadwon

[

coolmodi wrote: »

@helediron Keybinds were/are planned, an option to automatically adjust it to group size is a good idea. For now you can just use the chat commands. To change size quickly use e.g. "/gd b 4" for 4 bars. All commands work with only their first character, so "/gd s" and "/gd h" can be used for show and hide.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

oO...oO... my turn to ask "really" ? Aside from the two IC dungeons and vCOA, all other dungeons are clearable easily at v16 in vet and non vet versions even if the other DD is AFK !
Maybe you're focusing and relying too much on DPS and ignore other fighting techniques like interrupt, dodge-roll, etc... and cannot sustain any somewhat longer fights.
Take the Bogdan fight for instance, in "gold key" version : most people think that the DDS MUST out-DPS the healing provided by the white adds, but ignore that they can be interrupted...

@anitajoneb17_ESO Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.

Even my last group in BC wiped at least 5 times, but they seemed nice, did what they could and nobody left, so I didn't really care. But I don't go in dungeons with the expectation of even getting a full group to begin with, either someone if afk or leaves instantly. That's the real problem imho, not some very rare people using this addon to maybe annoy others. Waiting 20min just to stand alone in the dungeon is what may make people leave the game.

First of all, you can do acceptable dps without full set of vr16 gear and perfect race. For example, I was able to pull 20+k on magicka wood elf in vr14 Martial Knowledge set. Something like 10-15k is possible to achieve with minimal effort and is enough to beat daily dungeons without issues.
Secondly, I do think that if you dont want to put even minimal effort in your build and expect tanks and healers to carry you, youre extremely selfish. Not everyone is willing to spend 3 hours in a dungeon just because their dds are special snowflakes, and not everyone can spend that much time to begin with... When I tank and see that my dds pull less dps than me, I usually just quit, without blaming and drama. Simply because I have a lot of stuff to do IRL and cant waste all evening on a pledge.
And yeah, I do not expect random players to be perfect, I just expect them to be able to fulfill their role. 2-5k dps is acceptable for full-time tanks, but not for dds.

I made an account purely to log in to comment on this discussion, as an "elitist" pve player (stormproof/leaderboards etc) I can safely say i've done quite literally thousands of hours of pve. as a user of this add-on I will say that I got it for just what it was designed to do, to look at the individual players dps. My personal "rule of thumb" is to take what is Optimal for a character then divide it by half and then divide that by half and if the player (my other dps for instance) isn't meeting those numbers then I will drop from the team. For clarity that means that a player has to do 25% of his characters ability, I find this to be the minimal requirements to complete something as simple as a pledge/dsa etc.

Some will perhaps call this too judging, or too elitist(as you will). The simple fact is that we (the players) slot for a combat environment as specific roles as part of a collective team. I (as a dps) certainly wouldn't pick up a restoration staff and slot as a healer because I felt like it. Not only would it be silly it would be dangerous and would almost assuredly end in ragequits(For good reason). This addon does nothing more then shed some light on a players potential shortcomings so that the player (with a healthy mindset and not a defensive one) can know he is lacking and take steps to improve.

In my view of this add-on it actually helps the community out because it no longer requires the glaring scrutiny of your first endgame pve guild, where they will, more often then not, tear apart your build/CP/etc etc to make you a better player. That can be a bit overwhelming and I understand that ( though still think its necessary). This addon means it's simply not needed and players can correct their mistakes in the privacy and security of their own pace.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

coolmodi wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO Outside of your elitist dreamworld not everybody is a fully geared V16. The healer is not always good to heal up to 5 minute fights, and DDs don't do 10k dps, for (v16 scaled) LFG it's more like 2k on average for me, I do 4-5k at best. Healers are in most cases not bad at least, after all they HAVE to improve if they are too bad, only DDs have the privilege to be totally oblivious to their performance or really just lazy without direct consequences.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

First of all, you can do acceptable dps without full set of vr16 gear and perfect race. For example, I was able to pull 20+k on magicka wood elf in vr14 Martial Knowledge set. Something like 10-15k is possible to achieve with minimal effort and is enough to beat daily dungeons without issues.../...2-5k dps is acceptable for full-time tanks, but not for dds.

Just reading those two quotes... on one hand the addon author claims that 10-15K is a figure coming from an "elitist dreamworld"... and 4-5K is what should be expected from any battle leveled DPS in a vet dungeon where you encounter many DDs that pull 2K (which I find very hard to believe...)... on the other hand another player consider 10K to be a minimal requirement... (I tend to agree with that).
All this imho shows how wide mileages vary when it comes to "acceptable DPS" or "minimum requirements", and the chaos that such huge differences will lead to when combined with the use of this addon.

coolmodi wrote: »

Even my last group in BC wiped at least 5 times, but they seemed nice, did what they could and nobody left, so I didn't really care. But I don't go in dungeons with the expectation of even getting a full group to begin with, either someone if afk or leaves instantly. That's the real problem imho, not some very rare people using this addon to maybe annoy others. Waiting 20min just to stand alone in the dungeon is what may make people leave the game.

Not sure your addon will encourage more people to use the group finder and PUG, though... and it's not going to help against people who queued up for a dungeon but drop out (probably because the finder took too long and they have no time left to actually run it).

Humatiel wrote: »

I made an account purely to log in to comment on this discussion, as an "elitist" pve player (stormproof/leaderboards etc) I can safely say i've done quite literally thousands of hours of pve. as a user of this add-on I will say that I got it for just what it was designed to do, to look at the individual players dps. My personal "rule of thumb" is to take what is Optimal for a character then divide it by half and then divide that by half and if the player (my other dps for instance) isn't meeting those numbers then I will drop from the team. For clarity that means that a player has to do 25% of his characters ability, I find this to be the minimal requirements to complete something as simple as a pledge/dsa etc.

Some will perhaps call this too judging, or too elitist(as you will). The simple fact is that we (the players) slot for a combat environment as specific roles as part of a collective team. I (as a dps) certainly wouldn't pick up a restoration staff and slot as a healer because I felt like it. Not only would it be silly it would be dangerous and would almost assuredly end in ragequits(For good reason). This addon does nothing more then shed some light on a players potential shortcomings so that the player (with a healthy mindset and not a defensive one) can know he is lacking and take steps to improve.

In my view of this add-on it actually helps the community out because it no longer requires the glaring scrutiny of your first endgame pve guild, where they will, more often then not, tear apart your build/CP/etc etc to make you a better player. That can be a bit overwhelming and I understand that ( though still think its necessary). This addon means it's simply not needed and players can correct their mistakes in the privacy and security of their own pace.

Thank you very much for taking the time to post your opinion, we need as many contributions as possible here.
I particularly appreciate that you base your expectations on the dungeon's requirement and NOT on your personal capabilities, and also that, in case you believe that someone will not be up to the task, you will drop out (instead of kicking). You're the first one with that attitude in this entire thread.

If everyone was as mature and respectful as you are, I'd welcome this addon. Needless to say that I doubt that very much, but it's nice to know that there are some of your kind around.

On a side note (looking at ZOS this time) : I think it is extremely important that people can correct their mistakes in the privacy and security of their own pace, and for that, we need training dummies.

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Nice to see you've finally managed to be open to the possibility of this addon being good for the community as Long as the player base dosent abuse it. That's all I've been asking for since the start. And yes I'd like training dummies too.

However for the time being I find wrothgar mammoths tend to be good for target practice lol.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Nice to see you've finally managed to be open to the possibility of this addon being good for the community as Long as the player base dosent abuse it. That's all I've been asking for since the start. And yes I'd like training dummies too.

However for the time being I find wrothgar mammoths tend to be good for target practice lol.

I've always been, but I still don't believe that the condition in bold can ever be fulfilled.
Mammooths no matter where don't last long enough to reach reliable measurements... and furthermore, I think all battle-leveled areas are inadequte for measurements since the battle levelling changes results, not always in a very consistent way.

DPS-measurement only matters for v16-characters, so there is no battle-leveling at all ;-)
Sadly there is not so much left ingame for real DPS-measurements. Soloing Bloodspawn (with Tank and heal) is one of the better options, if you don't want to do it in a 12-men-raid (manti/serpent). I also used to go to slimecraw...but this little croco doesn't survive most dps long enough, so it's useless aswell

Destruent wrote: »

DPS-measurement only matters for v16-characters, so there is no battle-leveling at all ;-)

I disagree here, I think people could and perhaps should work on their rotations and try different things long before reaching VR16. After all, that's what leveling is for : learning.

I don't think Manti/Serpent are good measurement spots either, for various reasons :
- Unless you're in a top group that can implement a pure burn strategy, you have a lot to avoid, dodge-roll, etc... which impacts DPS
- You can't possibly get there before VR12 (for most people)
- You have buffs on you and debuffs on the target, thus your result is actually a group result.
- You need 11 other people to get there so in order to "train as long as you need in the security of your own pace" it's not very good...

... but obviously it's pretty much all we have :-(

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