Spy Addon Group Damage

altemriel

I realized today that you can turn the "share dps" option in FTC addon settings, they still can see how much hit points (life) you have, but not your dps any more, in case that you do not want to share it

deleted220701-004865

As a mediocre player with terrible dps, I'm thrilled with this add-on. Finally, people can lower their expectations of me on our first meeting--releasing me from the repressed feelings of inadequacy and the lingering sighs of disappointment over teamspeak.

Cuyler

kaer426 wrote: »

an add-on THAT SHOULDN'T EVEN EXIST. (they all just glaze over that detail)
an add-on that was never intended by ZOS to work the way it does.

I know some people think we should all take ZOS's vision and code as a Holy Text. Just because it wasn't intended by ZOS's original developers doesn't mean that can't change. I voted for text chat for consoles from day one, and where do they stand on that now after months and months of saying it wasn't happening?

Cuyler

timidobserver wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Well population numbers aside, the closed API was a design decision, and this addon is a work around so I'm pretty sure it will be patched up solely based on that.

Sadly this is most likely true. However, the previous design decision was made during beta by someone(Paul Sage) that no longer works at Zenimax. The way I recall it, preventing DPS meters was not the primary reason. Some perceived right to dps privacy had nothing to do with it. That was just a casualty. The real reason was that the open API allowed people to easily automate things that they did not want automated.

IIRC there is some basis is fact here as well, I'll be looking into it.

Xexpo

Also, there are at least* 12 commenters in this thread who are in fairly serious pve guilds, that I am pretty damn sure don't pug up for trials / pledges (esp with lowbies) talking a lot of smack in here, and are favor of this illegitimate add-on.
When they already habitually discuss their dps/hps and theorycraft amongst themselves ways to improve.
And have managed to do so for almost two years w/o this addon...

Why so toxic?
Just to epeen for the sake of it? To throw around things like 'carebear' and 'hello kitty' to make yourself feel good?

Hold on, we have a live report incoming...
This just in...
News Flash : This whole friggin game is pretty much carebear and hello kitty.




* (stopped counting after page 5)

Xexpo

Cuyler wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

an add-on THAT SHOULDN'T EVEN EXIST. (they all just glaze over that detail)
an add-on that was never intended by ZOS to work the way it does.

I know some people think we should all take ZOS's vision and code as a Holy Text. Just because it wasn't intended by ZOS's original developers doesn't mean that can't change. I voted for text chat for consoles from day one, and where do they stand on that now after months and months of saying it wasn't happening?

and as for your other point... text chat for consoles , and involuntary group dps meters for pc , is like comparing apples and orangutans...

Some_Guy

kaer426 wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

an add-on THAT SHOULDN'T EVEN EXIST. (they all just glaze over that detail)
an add-on that was never intended by ZOS to work the way it does.

I know some people think we should all take ZOS's vision and code as a Holy Text. Just because it wasn't intended by ZOS's original developers doesn't mean that can't change. I voted for text chat for consoles from day one, and where do they stand on that now after months and months of saying it wasn't happening?

and as for your other point... text chat for consoles , and involuntary group dps meters for pc , is like comparing apples and orangutans...

I think perhaps @Cuyler was trying to say that another unintented thing became intended because enough people in the community wanted it. And the same will happen with this if wnough people speak for it. And if the vote goes towards disabling this add-on, so be it. As @Woeler said, this is a business, and they will go the route they see as being most profitable (or least damaging to profits).
In the end, I think it's possible they may work with @coolmodi and find a "mid-point" (for lack of a better word or phrase) that can better satisfy both parties, if that's at all possible.

Cuyler

kaer426 wrote: »

and as for your other point... text chat for consoles , and involuntary group dps meters for pc , is like comparing apples and orangutans...

haha fair enough #criticalthinkingakajedimindtricks

Vangy

I've played with 100s of played over the past week. Ranging from 4 man daily pledges/farm runs and 12 man content compromised of a vast range of players from carebear pugs who pull 5 k dps to hardcore 30k Dps. I've always declared I was using a group damage meter. Guess what no one cared.

Woeler wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.

Keeping this function in the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd see it stay. The carebear community that minds such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, 70% of pugs don't even know what FTC is so asking them to post FTC is a pretty big deal.

And this is coming from someone who thinks the above post has no logic/supporting reasons.

Like it or not "the carebear community" of this game is massive. Heck most people in this game think they are playing "skyrim online". This argument has nothing to do with what is logical on performance level. Do you really think the developer of a game cares at all if players improve, grow or perform better? LOL seriously, no. This is a business, and a business is about money and most of that money is coming from the "carebears".

Why do you think the API was closed in the first place? Because the people in this community are mostly more elder scrolls oriented and less mmo oriented.

But you must be one of the cool ones, quoting a post like that. Wish I was that cool.

Without the carebears (and yes I think they are annoying too) this game is dead.

The care bear community of this game is massive yea just like any other game. However the number of casuals who actually give a damn about whether someone is using this addon remains to be seen. Out of the 100s I've played with a grand total of 0 players cared. In fact most asked me to link their dps in group chat. And take this whole thread for example. Pick out the people who are against it. Most love it or don't seem to care. So using your own argument the developer wants $$ and players want this addon. It seems you need to swallow a bitter pill cos

1) 100s of players didn't care I was using this.
2) people against it seem to be outnumbered here in this small sample size
--> it's reasonable to say this addon at least deserves a shot.

And yes if you want to be cool like me, stop making random assumptions and say something that adds some reason to the discussion. Not things like oh there's tons of Care Bears who don't like this addon and we don't need it and it's bad for the community blah blah cos I think my words are a statement of fact even tho I have 0 proof. Yaaaaay go me!

Also as for why the api was closed I'm pretty sure it wasn't for something as trivial as preventing a dps meter. Let's wait for zos to make a call. See this is how u be cool! It's easy. Don't assume you speak for the player base or the developer and allow everyone to have their say!

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vangy wrote: »

I've played with 100s of played over the past week. Ranging from 4 man daily pledges/farm runs and 12 man content compromised of a vast range of players from carebear pugs who pull 5 k dps to hardcore 30k Dps. I've always declared I was using a group damage meter. Guess what no one cared.

"Ok folks, here's the good news : there's a brand new add-on that will let me know how much DPS each of us do. I use it for our own common good, in order to not waste time with baddy lazy slackers. Of course if you disagree you're free to leave the group : we will all know why you did : because you're one of those whiny carebears who need to be carried and cannot man up. For those who stay and prove to be too weak, I'll be the coolest guy ever, and show you my gear and skills so that you can copy/paste it for yourself in order to improve. Anyone who minds, speak up now or shut up forever".

Guess what ? Noone spoke up !!!!

.

Vangy

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

I've played with 100s of played over the past week. Ranging from 4 man daily pledges/farm runs and 12 man content compromised of a vast range of players from carebear pugs who pull 5 k dps to hardcore 30k Dps. I've always declared I was using a group damage meter. Guess what no one cared.

"Ok folks, here's the good news : there's a brand new add-on that will let me know how much DPS each of us do. I use it for our own common good, in order to not waste time with baddy lazy slackers. Of course if you disagree you're free to leave the group : we will all know why you did : because you're one of those whiny carebears who need to be carried and cannot man up. For those who stay and prove to be too weak, I'll be the coolest guy ever, and show you my gear and skills so that you can copy/paste it for yourself in order to improve. Anyone who minds, speak up now or shut up forever".

Guess what ? Noone spoke up !!!!

.

That's a possibility. Here's also an equally likely possibility.... No one cared. Really it's not that hard to comprehend. Also taking this thread as a sample the people who don't care/are okay with this >> people who have a problem. I know this isn't the best sample size but I'm at least basing this on personal experience and what I can gather. Also if they truly did feel uncomfortable they wouldn't be asking me to tell them what their dps is (although I had to tell them that the addon does not have a parse sharing function). They would keep quiet and hide their feeling throughout the group.

Also the above "story" you outlined is far better to the alternative which is; hey guys I'm going to wear heavy armor as a DD with a bow and spec myself into magicka while spamming focused aim and pull 4 k dps but you're not going to know till we have wiped like 5 times and group is fed up and disbands cos Guess what? I'm just going to tell u I pull 20k dps and come *** up your vet icp run although I clearly know I don't belong in a group that wants to clear it. See I can invent scenarios to make my argument solid too! It's fun!

CaptainObvious

Cuyler wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Well population numbers aside, the closed API was a design decision, and this addon is a work around so I'm pretty sure it will be patched up solely based on that.

Sadly this is most likely true. However, the previous design decision was made during beta by someone(Paul Sage) that no longer works at Zenimax. The way I recall it, preventing DPS meters was not the primary reason. Some perceived right to dps privacy had nothing to do with it. That was just a casualty. The real reason was that the open API allowed people to easily automate things that they did not want automated.

IIRC there is some basis is fact here as well, I'll be looking into it.

Remember the add-ons that allowed you to teleport and fly? The crafting bots that would harvest nodes, shoot into the sky and fly to the crafting station?

Vangy

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

I've played with 100s of played over the past week. Ranging from 4 man daily pledges/farm runs and 12 man content compromised of a vast range of players from carebear pugs who pull 5 k dps to hardcore 30k Dps. I've always declared I was using a group damage meter. Guess what no one cared.

"Ok folks, here's the good news : there's a brand new add-on that will let me know how much DPS each of us do. I use it for our own common good, in order to not waste time with baddy lazy slackers. Of course if you disagree you're free to leave the group : we will all know why you did : because you're one of those whiny carebears who need to be carried and cannot man up. For those who stay and prove to be too weak, I'll be the coolest guy ever, and show you my gear and skills so that you can copy/paste it for yourself in order to improve. Anyone who minds, speak up now or shut up forever".

Guess what ? Noone spoke up !!!!

.

Hi all I'm using a group damage addon to keep track of how our group is doing as a whole! I use it to Ensure we can figure out what's going wrong in a run and in order to Ensure one inexperienced/baddie players dosent ruin the experience of 3 other people because he lied about his dps/experience. If you disagree or wish to own up now that you have lied about the above feel free to kick me (hey I'm not always running as party leader, sometimes I join pugs too!) /leave now and save 30mins of the time of 3 other people who wish to enjoy their 2 hours of gaming after a hard day at work. We all know why u left/kicked me. ill be the coolest guy ever and give you some insight on my gears and skills and rotation that you may choose to base your own build upon until you get the hang of things and create your own unique build. Anyone who minds please let me know so that we can come to a consensus.

^ that is what I was going for when I declared I used the addon. Clearly you shouldn't be my mouthpiece. No worries I've fixed it for you.

Xexpo

Vangy wrote: »

I've played with 100s of played over the past week. Ranging from 4 man daily pledges/farm runs and 12 man content compromised of a vast range of players from carebear pugs who pull 5 k dps to hardcore 30k Dps. I've always declared I was using a group damage meter. Guess what no one cared.

Woeler wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Removing this function from the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd rather see it go. The hardcore community (including me) that "needs" such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, requiring someone to post with FTC isn't that big of a deal.

And this is coming from a hardcore raider of Beyond Infinity.

Keeping this function in the game is better for the community, period. It's just that way. I'd see it stay. The carebear community that minds such a thing is small, really, really small. Besides, 70% of pugs don't even know what FTC is so asking them to post FTC is a pretty big deal.

And this is coming from someone who thinks the above post has no logic/supporting reasons.

Like it or not "the carebear community" of this game is massive. Heck most people in this game think they are playing "skyrim online". This argument has nothing to do with what is logical on performance level. Do you really think the developer of a game cares at all if players improve, grow or perform better? LOL seriously, no. This is a business, and a business is about money and most of that money is coming from the "carebears".

Why do you think the API was closed in the first place? Because the people in this community are mostly more elder scrolls oriented and less mmo oriented.

But you must be one of the cool ones, quoting a post like that. Wish I was that cool.

Without the carebears (and yes I think they are annoying too) this game is dead.

The care bear community of this game is massive yea just like any other game. However the number of casuals who actually give a damn about whether someone is using this addon remains to be seen. Out of the 100s I've played with a grand total of 0 players cared. In fact most asked me to link their dps in group chat. And take this whole thread for example. Pick out the people who are against it. Most love it or don't seem to care. So using your own argument the developer wants $$ and players want this addon. It seems you need to swallow a bitter pill cos

1) 100s of players didn't care I was using this.
2) people against it seem to be outnumbered here in this small sample size
--> it's reasonable to say this addon at least deserves a shot.

And yes if you want to be cool like me, stop making random assumptions and say something that adds some reason to the discussion. Not things like oh there's tons of Care Bears who don't like this addon and we don't need it and it's bad for the community blah blah cos I think my words are a statement of fact even tho I have 0 proof. Yaaaaay go me!

Also as for why the api was closed I'm pretty sure it wasn't for something as trivial as preventing a dps meter. Let's wait for zos to make a call. See this is how u be cool! It's easy. Don't assume you speak for the player base or the developer and allow everyone to have their say!

You seem like you are trying to be logical, which I can respect, but ....

OK so pretty much by definition 'casuals' are not frequent forums visitors. So " Most love it " in this thread pretty much means nothing. And even if they did happen up on the forums and this thread, would they even speak their mind knowing they could/would be flamed down ? Dubious at best.
Which brings us to your "100's" of players you field surveyed. One has to assume that you must pug up like a champ to have reached this number of different players. (also dubious for the record)
How many of them are going to say whatever it is you want to hear to get their pledge or pug trial done? Likely near 100%. And it's not like you would have turned it off if they asked anyway. So let's drop the 'hero of the people' act.

1) You have, in no way, proved this.
2) Just because people speak loudly doesn't mean they speak for a majority.
--> It's already getting a shot, it's happening right meow

So, random assumptions vs. sensational nonsense. Both are awful things to bring to a disagreement, and you seem guilty of both with pretty much every word in your entire post. Not to mention the heavy doses of confirmation bias with touches of ye olde strawman arguments.
(and I can do it too! )

And then you go on to say that you pretty much have NO IDEA what you are talking about and let the devs decide.

FleetwoodSmack

This thread is one reason why I like grouping with friends. I'm not worried about people seeing my DPS. I like flaunting it. But I'd rather play with people who don't suck the fun out of a game.

NBrookus

The attitude from many posters here about how they need this add-on to protect themselves from legions of awful, lazy, lying players makes me want to uninstall it.

I also wonder why they would PUG at all if they are so fearful of the outcome.

Usara

NBrookus wrote: »

The attitude from many posters here about how they need this add-on to protect themselves from legions of awful, lazy, lying players makes me want to uninstall it.

I also wonder why they would PUG at all if they are so fearful of the outcome.

I could say : Because this is a MMO, and I like meeting and grouping with other people, rather than sitting by myself in front of the screen waiting for my guildmates to log in ?

Or I could say : I wonder why you would PUG at all if you are so fearful of being told your damage output is low /trollface


I use the add on myself, but I never look at the numbers when puging. If DPS is okay, dungeon cleaned, I don't care about he numbers. If it takes 1h30 hours to clean Wayrest Sewers, I don't need the numbers to know DPS was low.

I love it (and FTC) when playing with my guild. Be it to improve myself, or help guildies... Or just to taunt my DD friends

code65536

altemriel wrote: »

I realized today that you can turn the "share dps" option in FTC addon settings

Bah. This is a point that I have yet to see any of the addon's detractors address: GroupDamage is superior to FTC's sharing. FTC's sharing is unreliable and spits out a single number at the end of a parse. GroupDamage shows the total damage and total heals each person is doing, live, in real time as the fight is progressing. GD is more useful and informative than FTC sharing, and it avoids many of the pitfalls of FTC (particularly when FTC's timing heuristics are off and it gives you a parse consisting of the final seconds of an execution burn). You often don't see some of the crazy inflated numbers that you'd see in FTC because GD is more robust and reliable than FTC.

It cuts both ways. Yes, it can be used to identify people who are underperforming. But it can also be used to expose the real damage that the so-called "epeen strokers" actually do. Instead of having people selectively post the parses that they like, with numbers that look high because of timing, in fights where crit RNG and other factors all went in their favor, you can see what the actual performance is through the entire fight, on all fights, and as a good-but-not-elite player, this addon has actually been very reassuring, as I've now seen that some people who post very high FTCs at the very end of certain fights are often doing amounts of damage in the overall dungeon that are comparable to mine.

People seem to think that data and transparency works only against newbies. That's nonsense. I'm by no means an "elite" player, and I run this addon mostly to reassure myself when I am grouped with very good and elite players that I'm not underperforming too much relative to them. I like the reassurance that a 10K DPS on a certain fight is actually acceptable because another really good DPS is pulling similar numbers, due to mechanics or other factors. This is something that you can get only with the always-on real-time data that GD provides. That no other addon can provide.

I also know people who are average players who have gotten this addon and who like it. Because they're curious about how they stack up and how they are improving. Because they like to have context to damage numbers. "What's a good DPS?" Well, it depends on the fight, doesn't it? Instead of looking at FTC's regurgitation of a single number that has no context (e.g., a 15K on Planar Inhibitor is far more impressive than a 15K on Blood Spawn), you can see your damage numbers in context with the damage numbers of others in the group, in all types of pulls and situations, and it's much more informative and educational. There is no comparable alternative to GD.

SanTii.92

kaer426 wrote: »

Also, there are at least* 12 commenters in this thread who are in fairly serious pve guilds, that I am pretty damn sure don't pug up for trials / pledges (esp with lowbies) talking a lot of smack in here, and are favor of this illegitimate add-on.
When they already habitually discuss their dps/hps and theorycraft amongst themselves ways to improve.
And have managed to do so for almost two years w/o this addon...

Why so toxic?
Just to epeen for the sake of it? To throw around things like 'carebear' and 'hello kitty' to make yourself feel good?

Hold on, we have a live report incoming...
This just in...
News Flash : This whole friggin game is pretty much carebear and hello kitty.




* (stopped counting after page 5)

How on earth could it be illegit?

Vangy

code65536 wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

I realized today that you can turn the "share dps" option in FTC addon settings

Bah. This is a point that I have yet to see any of the addon's detractors address: GroupDamage is superior to FTC's sharing. FTC's sharing is unreliable and spits out a single number at the end of a parse. GroupDamage shows the total damage and total heals each person is doing, live, in real time as the fight is progressing. GD is more useful and informative than FTC sharing, and it avoids many of the pitfalls of FTC (particularly when FTC's timing heuristics are off and it gives you a parse consisting of the final seconds of an execution burn). You often don't see some of the crazy inflated numbers that you'd see in FTC because GD is more robust and reliable than FTC.

It cuts both ways. Yes, it can be used to identify people who are underperforming. But it can also be used to expose the real damage that the so-called "epeen strokers" actually do. Instead of having people selectively post the parses that they like, with numbers that look high because of timing, in fights where crit RNG and other factors all went in their favor, you can see what the actual performance is through the entire fight, on all fights, and as a good-but-not-elite player, this addon has actually been very reassuring, as I've now seen that some people who post very high FTCs at the very end of certain fights are often doing amounts of damage in the overall dungeon that are comparable to mine.

People seem to think that data and transparency works only against newbies. That's nonsense. I'm by no means an "elite" player, and I run this addon mostly to reassure myself when I am grouped with very good and elite players that I'm not underperforming too much relative to them. I like the reassurance that a 10K DPS on a certain fight is actually acceptable because another really good DPS is pulling similar numbers, due to mechanics or other factors. This is something that you can get only with the always-on real-time data that GD provides. That no other addon can provide.

I also know people who are average players who have gotten this addon and who like it. Because they're curious about how they stack up and how they are improving. Because they like to have context to damage numbers. "What's a good DPS?" Well, it depends on the fight, doesn't it? Instead of looking at FTC's regurgitation of a single number that has no context (e.g., a 15K on Planar Inhibitor is far more impressive than a 15K on Blood Spawn), you can see your damage numbers in context with the damage numbers of others in the group, in all types of pulls and situations, and it's much more informative and educational. There is no comparable alternative to GD.

Again this^. However some people here would like you to believe 90% of the player base are care bears who can't even take an ounce of criticism and that this addon will unquestionably destroy group finder and that all of your claims are just your own experience and thus have no basis.

NBrookus

Usara wrote: »

Or I could say : I wonder why you would PUG at all if you are so fearful of being told your damage output is low /trollface

Because the people most likely to have low DPS numbers are new players without guilds or regular friends online and have to PUG if they want to do content?

{removed irrelevant personal info}

14 pages ago, I liked Group Damage. Now I'm starting to be convinced by the comments on this thread that overall this is something that might be more toxic for the community than helpful.

Usara

NBrookus wrote: »

Usara wrote: »

Or I could say : I wonder why you would PUG at all if you are so fearful of being told your damage output is low /trollface

Because the people most likely to have low DPS numbers are new players without guilds or regular friends online and have to PUG if they want to do content?

Of course new players will have low DPS. As we all did when we began the game. I have no problems with that, we were all beginners once
But you probably did not PUGed often if you never encounter players requiring you to have all kinds of achievements AND a high DPS only to find out said players is a full heavy armor/bow DD with 4k DPS in vICP (I know I did )

And you'd be surprised to know that yes, even players with physical issues do want to have nice and smooth runs too (since we're sharing personal anecdotes, one of my friend wears a corset and plays with a trackball. I myself went through surgery 4 months ago because I had crippling pain in both my shoulders for the past 5 years. And guess what ? When I could not do my job properly in group content, I did not group)
/offtopic over

Enodoc

sAnn92 wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

Also, there are at least* 12 commenters in this thread who are in fairly serious pve guilds, that I am pretty damn sure don't pug up for trials / pledges (esp with lowbies) talking a lot of smack in here, and are favor of this illegitimate add-on.

How on earth could it be illegit?

@sAnn92 Such functionality, in which another player can see your DPS without you allowing them to, is not an intended function of the API. Thus, usage of something that is not intended would not be sanctioned. Something that is not sanctioned is illegitimate.

Xexpo

sAnn92 wrote: »

kaer426 wrote: »

Also, there are at least* 12 commenters in this thread who are in fairly serious pve guilds, that I am pretty damn sure don't pug up for trials / pledges (esp with lowbies) talking a lot of smack in here, and are favor of this illegitimate add-on.
When they already habitually discuss their dps/hps and theorycraft amongst themselves ways to improve.
And have managed to do so for almost two years w/o this addon...

Why so toxic?
Just to epeen for the sake of it? To throw around things like 'carebear' and 'hello kitty' to make yourself feel good?

Hold on, we have a live report incoming...
This just in...
News Flash : This whole friggin game is pretty much carebear and hello kitty.




* (stopped counting after page 5)

How on earth could it be illegit?

I don't claim to be a code wizard but, the author of this add-on was able to create something that wasn't supposed to exist.
And really that's all I am going on about.. bunch of people saying I want this cuz idgaf what was intended.
Such nonsense, much "wah wah".

edit: i guess that doesn't magnify , i just copied from someone else's post earlier in this thread .. here's what it says ..from an actual zos dev:
"This is something we've been discussing internally. The existence of the unit id in combat events that don't involve you was an oversight and not intended at the time the change was made. I don't want you to waste a lot of time working with it only to have it patched out, so I'd be wary for the time being."

Cherryblossom

Not sure who these Elitests are, I've never met them!

More to the point, if they are Elitests they are playing with a group they know not Pugging.

So this is a nonsense argument.

If I was in a group where someone was under performing, I'd give advice on how to improve! I think this is what most people would do. Always hear the Elitest arguement but have never met them!

Jaeysa

The sheer amount of fear about other players is insane.

'I was kicked for doing non-amazing damage'
- Either it was bad to the point of dragging the group down(can't blame them) or you ran into a bad group. Bad groups are bad, this is just one way to show it. If it was the first, why do you want to be allowed to ruin other peoples' fun?

The good thing about this is that it allows you to trouble shoot. In wow, I use recount pretty religiously. It shows me where the problems are, including deaths to fire and damage taken and interrupts. If you're struggling with a dungeon, isn't it better to take a second, try and figure out why, and then try and help?

Vangy

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Not sure who these Elitests are, I've never met them!

More to the point, if they are Elitests they are playing with a group they know not Pugging.

So this is a nonsense argument.

If I was in a group where someone was under performing, I'd give advice on how to improve! I think this is what most people would do. Always hear the Elitest arguement but have never met them!

Jaeysa wrote: »

The sheer amount of fear about other players is insane.

'I was kicked for doing non-amazing damage'
- Either it was bad to the point of dragging the group down(can't blame them) or you ran into a bad group. Bad groups are bad, this is just one way to show it. If it was the first, why do you want to be allowed to ruin other peoples' fun?

The good thing about this is that it allows you to trouble shoot. In wow, I use recount pretty religiously. It shows me where the problems are, including deaths to fire and damage taken and interrupts. If you're struggling with a dungeon, isn't it better to take a second, try and figure out why, and then try and help?

And now we see the return of the sane player base with logical points of view. Thank you. You both get an awesome from me.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vangy wrote: »

Bye bye. Not gona miss you

Of course you're going to miss him, you wouldn't be baiting so obviously if you weren't ;-)

But back to topic :

Naslu wrote: »

Fantastic, just fantastic! In the blue corner we have "remove it pls" , in the red corner "keep it pls", a lot has been said on that topic here.
And then i read on another thread
click me to get to this one
the demand for training dummies to be able to improve. Nobody is there who said "no - its disturbing my way to play if i have to train on dummies to get better...."
Sometimes i'm indeed speechless ;-P

If someone decides to train on dummies he decides it for himself, not upon criticism or belittling from other people. And he does it quietly, not fearing judgement, not stressed by numbers available to all, and not wondering if he is slowing down the entire group in the dungeon.

I truly don't see how that is contradictory with people being against this addon.

Tondodino wrote: »

As a mediocre player with terrible dps, I'm thrilled with this add-on. Finally, people can lower their expectations of me on our first meeting--releasing me from the repressed feelings of inadequacy and the lingering sighs of disappointment over teamspeak.

Not sure to understand what you expect as a reaction from people in PUGs running this addon : they will either kick you or drown you in "advice"/cristicism.
If you know your DPS is low/too low, and for whatever reason you cannot make it even slightly better, you could just they that openly to the people you group with, whether in guild or in PUGs, so that they know what to expect. I fail to understand why you need an addon for that.

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Not sure who these Elitests are, I've never met them!
More to the point, if they are Elitests they are playing with a group they know not Pugging.
So this is a nonsense argument.

If I was in a group where someone was under performing, I'd give advice on how to improve! I think this is what most people would do. Always hear the Elitest arguement but have never met them!

I don't think that "elite" players are the ones to be feared here. They play very well, they know it's not easy, they know what it takes, and they don't expect everyone to play like they do. They know what they're worth and don't need to crush others down to feed their ego. And they usually group up among themselves anyway, which is why "you never meet them". And IF they give advice, it's usually good advice, because these people truly know the game.

What I fear most with this addon is "wannabes". People with 16K DPS who'll frown upon people with 13K DPS to feel good and powerful about themselves. And when they give "advice" it's usually bad advice, because they've copy/pasted a build and don't really understand how the game works. That's what this addon will promote and what I fear will discourage people from PUGging, if not from grouping up entirely.

.

Jaeysa

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bye bye. Not gona miss you

Of course you're going to miss him, you wouldn't be baiting so obviously if you weren't ;-)

But back to topic :

Naslu wrote: »

Fantastic, just fantastic! In the blue corner we have "remove it pls" , in the red corner "keep it pls", a lot has been said on that topic here.
And then i read on another thread
click me to get to this one
the demand for training dummies to be able to improve. Nobody is there who said "no - its disturbing my way to play if i have to train on dummies to get better...."*
Sometimes i'm indeed speechless ;-P

If someone decides to train on dummies he decides it for himself, not upon criticism or belittling from other people. And he does it quietly, not fearing judgement, not stressed by numbers available to all, and not wondering if he is slowing down the entire group in the dungeon.

I truly don't see how that is contradictory with people being against this addon.

Tondodino wrote: »

As a mediocre player with terrible dps, I'm thrilled with this add-on. Finally, people can lower their expectations of me on our first meeting--releasing me from the repressed feelings of inadequacy and the lingering sighs of disappointment over teamspeak.

Not sure to understand what you expect as a reaction from people in PUGs running this addon : they will either kick you or drown you in "advice"/cristicism.
If you know your DPS is low/too low, and for whatever reason you cannot make it even slightly better, you could just they that openly to the people you group with, whether in guild or in PUGs, so that they know what to expect. I fail to understand why you need an addon for that.

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Not sure who these Elitests are, I've never met them!
More to the point, if they are Elitests they are playing with a group they know not Pugging.
So this is a nonsense argument.

If I was in a group where someone was under performing, I'd give advice on how to improve! I think this is what most people would do. Always hear the Elitest arguement but have never met them!

I don't think that "elite" players are the ones to be feared here. They play very well, they know it's not easy, they know what it takes, and they don't expect everyone to play like they do. They know what they're worth and don't need to crush others down to feed their ego. And they usually group up among themselves anyway, which is why "you never meet them". And IF they give advice, it's usually good advice, because these people truly know the game.

What I fear most with this addon is "wannabes". People with 16K DPS who'll frown upon people with 13K DPS to feel good and powerful about themselves. And when they give "advice" it's usually bad advice, because they've copy/pasted a build and don't really understand how the game works. That's what this addon will promote and what I fear will discourage people from PUGging, if not from grouping up entirely.

.

Pure and simple, this addon will be abused at some point by somebody. But I don't feel like the fact that it will be should mean it's automatically off the table. People abuse a lot of things, and the people who would go 'this is too low' when it's not usually are the people you don't want to run with. They're annoying anyways and would/have find/found other ways to be elitist wannabes.

And there are less of them than people make out. Keep coming back to wow for a couple reasons, but people make it out like there are a huuuuge number of elitists who will tear you apart. And I've seen a couple, they do exist, but most people want to just finish their dungeon and be done with it.

TLDR: Addon can/will be abused, but the good outways the bad.

ZOS_AlanG

This thread has gotten rather belligerent, with a fair number of insults directed at other participants and various groups of players. This isn't acceptable, and a number of posts have been removed. It is fine to discuss this add-on, but it's important to respect everyone's opinion on the matter.

This isn't to say you can't disagree or debate, but it needs to be kept civil and constructive. Whether you think this add-on is a good idea or not, or that people should be kicked from groups for it or not, attacking people for having a different view is not in line with the forum philosophy, or the rules.

If these problems persist, the thread will be locked.