AoE Caps Discussion

prootch · December 2015

Will laugh my ass off when you guys will finally understand they will probably never decap aoe even for test...

Derra · December 2015

prootch wrote: »

Will laugh my ass off when you guys will finally understand they will probably never decap aoe even for test...

Would be fine by me if they would just state that on the forums.

You won´t laugh when there´s nobody left to play with

Jhunn · December 2015

prootch wrote: »

Will laugh my ass off when you guys will finally understand they will probably never decap aoe even for test...

Fine. Can he post and tell us that so I can uninstall my game?

Enodoc · December 2015

Galalin wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

Sorry so late to the party Eric.

My long winded feedback to your post.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233820/20151201-darlgon-telvanni-on-aoe-caps-and-siege?new=1

Did you really just say sorry your late to the party to Mr.Wrobel? Do you even see the irony in that?

DK SCRUB OUT

Maybe he meant that he is sorry that Eric is so late to the party...

Tomato wrote: »

Wrobel a response is actually needed for a discussion to occur. It can't only be one sided and like usual ZOS just walks away. We already know you guys don't care about PvP.

That generalisation is a bit unfair considering the amount of times Brian Wheeler responds to PvP posts, even if it's just to repeat something he's said elsewhere.

Remdale · December 2015

On Monday I thought it's the first day after Thanksgiving Holiday, give Wrobel some time. Yet here it is Thursday and not a peep from Wrobel about this topic who started this "discussion." Maybe Thurs is still not long, but to those of us whom PvP is important to and monitor this thread, it is a long time, and a feeling of foreboding is building that ZoS is just going to sweep this under the rug. Don't do that, Wrobel. Please don't do that.

prootch · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

You won´t laugh when there´s nobody left to play with

Well... so many spamballs, so few interesting to fight with atm...

Derra · December 2015

prootch wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

You won´t laugh when there´s nobody left to play with

Well... so many spamballs, so few interesting to fight with atm...

Well you relalize that these spamballs are just about the only players who have no real issue with aoe caps? They´ll be the only players who continue to play.

Tomato · December 2015

This officially is another dead thread about AoE caps and just when I was starting to get my hopes up again.

Kwivur · December 2015

It died a long time ago.

Cinbri · December 2015

Btw why no news about ESO Live 04.12.15?

Kwivur · December 2015

Cinbri wrote: »

Btw why no news about ESO Live 04.12.15?

News? I have breaking news!! Wrobel still hasn't commented!!

Ara_Valleria · December 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

Sorry so late to the party Eric.

My long winded feedback to your post.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233820/20151201-darlgon-telvanni-on-aoe-caps-and-siege?new=1

Did you really just say sorry your late to the party to Mr.Wrobel? Do you even see the irony in that?

DK SCRUB OUT

Maybe he meant that he is sorry that Eric is so late to the party...

Tomato wrote: »

Wrobel a response is actually needed for a discussion to occur. It can't only be one sided and like usual ZOS just walks away. We already know you guys don't care about PvP.

That generalisation is a bit unfair considering the amount of times Brian Wheeler responds to PvP posts, even if it's just to repeat something he's said elsewhere.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler is trying... but the rest of those guys...

Jhunn · December 2015

This is getting a bit ridiculous, really

jrkhan · December 2015

I think the 30 page thread on siege changes might be the response.

Seems like it will have an effect on the issues discussed here.

Still, a note saying:
We agree with your concerns and are planning to first address them through siege mechanics and then change the AOE cap if necessary.

Would have been appreciated in this thread.

Merlight · December 2015

jrkhan wrote: »

I think the 30 page thread on siege changes might be the response.

That thread is abusing AoE caps already. People are spamming arguments, yet nobody surrenders. It will soon be over 30 pages, and every post beyond that will only have 25% impact.

ZOS_Wrobel · December 2015

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Efficient · December 2015

Does anyone else see the problem that an AOE caps discussion was opened but Wrobel did not even mention it in his reply after several weeks?

Jhunn · December 2015

Soooo ..... AOE caps are staying?

Could we at least have an explanation why? WHY? WHY? WHYYYY

CtrlAltDlt · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Thanks but you didn't mention anything regarding removal of aoe caps.. which ironically was the reason you created this thread. I hope i am wrong but this gave me the impression that you are not removing aoe caps

Takllin · December 2015

Wow, just wow. A big whoosh, this all went right over his head. Can we please get someone who actually plays PvP, and know's the current situation?

Efficient · December 2015

Takllin wrote: »

Wow, just wow. A big whoosh, this all went right over his head. Can we please get someone who actually plays PvP, and know's the current situation?

Its not even comical at this point, its pathetic. Another 3 weeks maybe he will get what we are talking about. The big anticipation of a Wrobel response in the LONG awaiting AOE cap discussion turns out to be completely over his head indeed.

Takllin · December 2015

Efficient wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Wow, just wow. A big whoosh, this all went right over his head. Can we please get someone who actually plays PvP, and know's the current situation?

Its not even comical at this point, its pathetic. Another 3 weeks maybe he will get what we are talking about. The big anticipation of a Wrobel response in the LONG awaiting AOE cap discussion turns out to be completely over his head indeed.

Completely agree. I'm not sure why I had such high hopes for this, and it's all come crashing down.

For the gap closers, it's not multiple. A single use of Ambush causes the player to be mini stunned.

Jhunn · December 2015

@FENGRUSH save me plz

Efficient · December 2015

Jhunn wrote: »

@FENGRUSH save me plz

If his post was completely overlooked by Wrobel, since clearly his was not the "Top" we are all doomed.

_Chaos · December 2015

Can we get a mod in here to tell Wrobel to stay on topic and talk about AOE caps?

ToRelax · December 2015

If you want to make fights more tactical, reward the use of abilties that require more skill to use effectively - such as cone AoE vs PBAoE, as you mentioned.
In no way though does another change justify holding back an AoE cap on damage abilites - that is quite obviously the first thing one would change for more tactical gameplay, as you put it.

Bah, signature confirmed once again.

Efficient · December 2015

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Can we get a mod in here to tell Wrobel to stay on topic and talk about AOE caps?

lol. Best response vote in.

Jhunn · December 2015

The more times I read his post, the more I can't believe he's being serious. This is beyond ridiculous.

Gyudan · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

Either that or a full bladder.

Ishammael · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

Thanks! We are passionate. You and your team at ZoS has crafted a really unique combat system which combines traditional MMO features with action game features. We like it, very much!

Wrobel wrote: »

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability.

This is the first time that I have ever read a developer state anything about the overarching vision for ESO PvP. I agree with this sentiment very much and would really like to hear a detailed very of where y'all want to take Cyrodiil and PvP in the future.

Wrobel wrote: »

Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Agree with this assessment and near-term strategy.

Wrobel wrote: »

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

Please recognize that siege weaponry is a very controversial topic and take care how you implement these changes. My personal stance is that using siege weapons is boring gameplay -- I want to control my character and use his 12 skills to fight people, not sit on siege.

Wrobel wrote: »

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game.

Great! Note that these skills have been overpowered for many months. In the future please consider making more frequent but smaller tweaks to balance in order to prevent toxic meta developments. This goes for all skills.

Wrobel wrote: »

Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing.

Excellent.

Wrobel wrote: »

In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Now this is something we have been waiting for for a long time. Very excited to hear this.

Wrobel wrote: »

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

This is the most important statement of your post -- please stick to this.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

In order:
1. Cone abilities: agree completely with your assessment. Low hanging fruit are Jabs (both morphs) and Fiery Breath (both morphs).
2. This is my number two complaint about pvp right now (behind lag). Needs to be addressed. Ambush and Crit Rush are biggest offenders because they are so common.
3. This is a bug that needs to be fixed.
4. I thought this was fixed many patches ago?
5. If you change the skill to have an AoE cap I don't see this as a huge issue.
6. I don't think this is a huge deal.

Some other considerations:

1. Can you please provide some of your thoughts on AoE caps based on the discussions in this thread? Why are groups of greater than six players given artificial advantages?
2. Siege changes, AoE caps, and skill balance should be considered holistically, not on a 1v1 basis.
3. There are enormous imbalances in the CP system that are well documented. Are these being addressed in the next balance patch?
4. Cyrodiil is starving for new objectives: new towns, outposts, flags, etc. Any word on these efforts?
5. The Imperial City is not really part of the AvA battle. Any plans to add captureable districts that contribute to the score? What about removal of instant spawn? Will I ever be able to cross the bridges in Cyrodiil which lead to IC?