bowmanz607 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Hey everyone calm down about wrobell. Let the man work. Let him take the feedback and see what the team comes up with before you start bashing him

Hate to say this, but it has been so long, the time of not speaking our minds is way behind us. He has had months, this is where he said there would be a 'discussion' and this is what we've gotten.

Ya but read the opening post again. Thus discussion is supposed to be about situation and circumstances where 0layers have had trouble fighting large groups the abilities being used and the problems encountered. He was simply looking for detailed information about the problems players have had based on particular circumstances. Not a discussion on whether aoe caps should be removed. Many people just started talking about aoe caps in general rather than give feedback on particular encounters which is what was asked for. So by changing the disccussing to whether or not caps should be removed changed the originalname discussion that was asked for.

Please look at the title of the thread.

Thank you.

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Hey everyone calm down about wrobell. Let the man work. Let him take the feedback and see what the team comes up with before you start bashing him

Hate to say this, but it has been so long, the time of not speaking our minds is way behind us. He has had months, this is where he said there would be a 'discussion' and this is what we've gotten.

Ya but read the opening post again. Thus discussion is supposed to be about situation and circumstances where 0layers have had trouble fighting large groups the abilities being used and the problems encountered. He was simply looking for detailed information about the problems players have had based on particular circumstances. Not a discussion on whether aoe caps should be removed. Many people just started talking about aoe caps in general rather than give feedback on particular encounters which is what was asked for. So by changing the disccussing to whether or not caps should be removed changed the originalname discussion that was asked for.

more detailed information? OMG

that was written countless times before on forum, if he read the forum (and he says yes) he already have it. bowmanz your posts are misleading

im not sure what your trying to say is misleading????

your posts are out of point

even the worst pvp player, who was roflstomped all way around, never ask for to be protected by AoE dmg cap. i dont know from when they get this stupidity, has it even use in another game? i doubt it.

combat team seems like completely useless and only plagueing the game more and more every update. they dont even provide information why they installed them here, so how can they get our proper opinion on them

I am not disagreeing that aoe caps have to go. You have completely missed the entire point of what my posts were saying and I suggest that you received read them before you attack me for something I 2as not even talking about

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Hey everyone calm down about wrobell. Let the man work. Let him take the feedback and see what the team comes up with before you start bashing him

Hate to say this, but it has been so long, the time of not speaking our minds is way behind us. He has had months, this is where he said there would be a 'discussion' and this is what we've gotten.

Ya but read the opening post again. Thus discussion is supposed to be about situation and circumstances where 0layers have had trouble fighting large groups the abilities being used and the problems encountered. He was simply looking for detailed information about the problems players have had based on particular circumstances. Not a discussion on whether aoe caps should be removed. Many people just started talking about aoe caps in general rather than give feedback on particular encounters which is what was asked for. So by changing the disccussing to whether or not caps should be removed changed the originalname discussion that was asked for.

Please look at the title of the thread.

Thank you.

Try reading the desceiption of the post.

Thank you

I did.

Here is something from the very first paragraph: "This week, we’d like to have that same constructive discussion with AoE caps and falloff." That seems pretty clear, no?

Or how about what he wrote afterward:
"AoE caps are something that have been talked about on the forums for a while now and discussion has picked up recently, especially with regards to PvP. We’d like to discuss them in a bit more detail and provide some design goals for the system, as well as the overall vision for larger scale PvP in ESO."

AoE caps are clear and center intended to be the main topic of discussion, to be done in detail, which is why the thread is titled and such and why so many people wrote their opinions about them.

Now, he also asked us to comment about situations where we are struggling against large groups of players. But this was not the main thrust of his post as you claim it is. It's is the last of 5 paragraphs.

And you know what? People have done that more than adequately. The first page had Derra suggesting retreating maneuvers should break on heals. TinyT pointing out that barrier and purge need to be capped and prox det tickling against 1 or 2 targets. Bashev thinking capping the number for retreating was a good idea. Vortexman writing a thoughtful post about the inability to create area denial - and apologizing for going off topic (he assumed it was about AoE caps!). Multiple people citing steel tornado as overpowered. usmcjdking saying defensive skills are more a problem than Aoe caps.

People have done what you claimed they have not. Stop making excuses for Zenimax.

And you know what else? Yes, he did ask us to talk about the problems facing large groups of players. By Far, the biggest problem I have fighting against groups is, you got it, AOE Caps. AoE caps are and should dominate any discussion when it comes to combat with groups because it is such a huge mechanic - 18 people in a 24 person raid are getting more than 50% damage reduction. That's crazy! Especially when I have to take 100% damage. That's beyond crazy. That's just dumb. That's why it keeps coming up and why so many people are frustrated with ZoS's insistence that they are staying.

Joy_Division wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Hey everyone calm down about wrobell. Let the man work. Let him take the feedback and see what the team comes up with before you start bashing him

Hate to say this, but it has been so long, the time of not speaking our minds is way behind us. He has had months, this is where he said there would be a 'discussion' and this is what we've gotten.

Ya but read the opening post again. Thus discussion is supposed to be about situation and circumstances where 0layers have had trouble fighting large groups the abilities being used and the problems encountered. He was simply looking for detailed information about the problems players have had based on particular circumstances. Not a discussion on whether aoe caps should be removed. Many people just started talking about aoe caps in general rather than give feedback on particular encounters which is what was asked for. So by changing the disccussing to whether or not caps should be removed changed the originalname discussion that was asked for.

Please look at the title of the thread.

Thank you.

Try reading the desceiption of the post.

Thank you

I did.

Here is something from the very first paragraph: "This week, we’d like to have that same constructive discussion with AoE caps and falloff." That seems pretty clear, no?

Or how about what he wrote afterward:
"AoE caps are something that have been talked about on the forums for a while now and discussion has picked up recently, especially with regards to PvP. We’d like to discuss them in a bit more detail and provide some design goals for the system, as well as the overall vision for larger scale PvP in ESO."

AoE caps are clear and center intended to be the main topic of discussion, to be done in detail, which is why the thread is titled and such and why so many people wrote their opinions about them.

Now, he also asked us to comment about situations where we are struggling against large groups of players. But this was not the main thrust of his post as you claim it is. It's is the last of 5 paragraphs.

And you know what? People have done that more than adequately. The first page had Derra suggesting retreating maneuvers should break on heals. TinyT pointing out that barrier and purge need to be capped and prox det tickling against 1 or 2 targets. Bashev thinking capping the number for retreating was a good idea. Vortexman writing a thoughtful post about the inability to create area denial - and apologizing for going off topic (he assumed it was about AoE caps!). Multiple people citing steel tornado as overpowered. usmcjdking saying defensive skills are more a problem than Aoe caps.

People have done what you claimed they have not. Stop making excuses for Zenimax.

And you know what else? Yes, he did ask us to talk about the problems facing large groups of players. By Far, the biggest problem I have fighting against groups is, you got it, AOE Caps. AoE caps are and should dominate any discussion when it comes to combat with groups because it is such a huge mechanic - 18 people in a 24 person raid are getting more than 50% damage reduction. That's crazy! Especially when I have to take 100% damage. That's beyond crazy. That's just dumb. That's why it keeps coming up and why so many people are frustrated with ZoS's insistence that they are staying.

I am not saying ape caps are not what is bein discussed. It clearly is. I also am not saying no one is giving feedback. I am saying many people are not giving feedback but just stating get rid of caps. I stated in previous comments that some people are doing what is asked. However, the conversation has been derailed since the beginning pages into just genral remarks and bashing wrobel.

Additionally, what the opening paragraphs are doing is setting up what the discussion is gearing towards. That we have had discussions and want to continue those discussion 8n a particular manner while then going on to describe the situation around aoe caps. The last paragraph is the meat of what they are looking for. It is not merely just the last paragraph out of 5 but specifically states the kind of feedback they are looking for. In fact stating "for feedback this week, we are looking for..." this is where they narrowed the specifics of what they wanted the discussion to be under the larger umbrella of aoe caps.

I am not defending zos just merely statting their intentions behind this post that many people seem to be overlooking. It's is really very simple based on their writing. That is to say that they setup the direction they were taking in the post, background information on the topic, and then a narrowly tailored call of the question asking for specific information about the broader topic they introduced. That is writing 101. Taking pieces of writing out of context of the body of work derails the topic and misleads the discussion which is what has happened.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Masuimi wrote: »

Gina can you tell us why Wrobel would start a discussion about AOE caps, and then completely dodge the topic he started?

It's making a lot of posters unhappy.

Do you know anything?

This thread wasn't intended to be a discussion or Q&A between Wrobel and everyone else. We realize the thread title included the word "discussion" and was misleading - apologies for that. Wrobel and his team were looking for very specific feedback regarding the situations in which you felt you were having problems against large groups. He did read through everyone's responses though - as stated in his previous reply - and knows how you all feel in regards to AoE caps. Please trust that we have a long-term plan in mind, and we'll open up a discussion for AoE caps and their existence (whether it's removing them or keeping them) when we're ready to get into the details.

Thanks for understanding, guys. We know everyone is very passionate about this topic, and appreciate you all taking the time to jot down your thoughts in this thread.

Just saying this is exactly what I was saying. Told you all. Thanks for that post @ZOS_GinaBruno

Wait, you're telling us that you "told [us] all" after Gina admits that the title of thread was misleading? Get a grip mate.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Masuimi wrote: »

Gina can you tell us why Wrobel would start a discussion about AOE caps, and then completely dodge the topic he started?

It's making a lot of posters unhappy.

Do you know anything?

This thread wasn't intended to be a discussion or Q&A between Wrobel and everyone else. We realize the thread title included the word "discussion" and was misleading - apologies for that. Wrobel and his team were looking for very specific feedback regarding the situations in which you felt you were having problems against large groups. He did read through everyone's responses though - as stated in his previous reply - and knows how you all feel in regards to AoE caps. Please trust that we have a long-term plan in mind, and we'll open up a discussion for AoE caps and their existence (whether it's removing them or keeping them) when we're ready to get into the details.

Thanks for understanding, guys. We know everyone is very passionate about this topic, and appreciate you all taking the time to jot down your thoughts in this thread.

Gonna be honest -- creating a thread with "discussion" in the title, not responding for several weeks, then coming in here an saying "oops, that title was misleading, apologies" is totally ridiculous.

Why bother creating a thread if not to have a discussion? The feedback provided in this thread has been suggested many times throughout the forums. Why do we need have another thread about this issue? This one is 29 pages -- more than 850 posts.

Thieves Guild better be good.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Thank you for the reply and explaining the reasoning, i really do appreciate it.


@bowmanz607

By your logic the title of the thread could have been "ESO is shutting down" and it wouldn't have made a difference right?

"Don't judge a book by its cover" relates to... you guessed it... books... not forum threads

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Masuimi wrote: »

Gina can you tell us why Wrobel would start a discussion about AOE caps, and then completely dodge the topic he started?

It's making a lot of posters unhappy.

Do you know anything?

This thread wasn't intended to be a discussion or Q&A between Wrobel and everyone else. We realize the thread title included the word "discussion" and was misleading - apologies for that. Wrobel and his team were looking for very specific feedback regarding the situations in which you felt you were having problems against large groups. He did read through everyone's responses though - as stated in his previous reply - and knows how you all feel in regards to AoE caps. Please trust that we have a long-term plan in mind, and we'll open up a discussion for AoE caps and their existence (whether it's removing them or keeping them) when we're ready to get into the details.

Thanks for understanding, guys. We know everyone is very passionate about this topic, and appreciate you all taking the time to jot down your thoughts in this thread.

Nice. Took you a month to say this. Will probably take you guys a year to tell us about the so called "long term plans".

dont bash Gina. she posted 24.12. although she can be in hurry spend time with family and not posting on forum easily.

otherwise Eric Wrobel better be very well prepared for next zos live show, currently his stuff is big burden of the game

Anzriel wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

I think it is worth waiting for the rebalance before making a decision. I do agree that if this upcoming balance falters, then many players will leave at least till a real pcp update comes.

Darnathian wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

believe what you want. if you doubt that you havent been here since release. not 80% of the game population. the pvp population.

You should never drop a percentage or numbers when talking about the population. Whether it is how many people left or how many people do this etc. We have no numbers on the population and never have. There is no basis for giving random numbers. That said, the game has died down significantly since launch.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I like that there are people who were under the impression that player skill has ever played a meaningful role in this game.

It does matter to some extent. It does not matter in large groups. It does matter when dueling and small group play or 1vx. But 8t is not as meaningful as it once was. And really having more champ points than a player who is more skilled then you will likely result in their demise if the player with high champ points is even partially competant. And that is the issue. A player with a ton more skill but 100 points will lose out to a player with significantly less skill and maxed cp.

That is what I liked about soft caps and no champ points. Once you got max level and gear it came down purely to skill.