AoE Caps Discussion

Jhunn

Rune_Relic wrote: »

[
So you have 100 people all within the same healing circle (your targeted area) and you think 4 players are going to kill anyone with smart heals going off ?
Especially if your 4 strikes land over 4 ticks instead of 1 tick with the lag affecting different players latency in different ways.

I really cant believe anything anyone says if they think more players hit does not equal more server calculations and client updates to make.
Clearly they have never coded anything in their life.
Its really such a no brainer its not even worthy of discussion.

Probably why wrobel hasn't even merited the discussion with a response TBH.

Stop using 100 people as an example. You'll never have 100 enemies in an AOE area in this game. You'll never have more than 60 people, which is the current cap. You understand this, yes? Removal of AOE caps won't make you hit 'more people', because there will simply not be more than 60 people to hit at once, that will never happen. You understand if you hit 60 people right now, yes, where 6/24/30 people has to take calculated damage? For every AOE? Yes? With no AOE cap you'll hit all 60 people without any need for extra calculations? Yes?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Derra

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

We disagree and I'm really not going to use more time arguing for the AOE caps removal, because it won't change a [snip] thing apparantly. You'll have to explain this, though, to me:

Talcyndl wrote: »

The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.

How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?

If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.
Is it really that difficult to grasp the effect AoE caps has on client updates at the server and client updates that then have to go from server to clients via the network ?

I would suggest @Talcyndl understands the ramifications of AoE caps far better than a few on here.

You think destroying large groups is the priority in reducing lag.
Yet seem oblivious removing caps empowers them at the same time as you.
And have absolutely no regard for server performance and lag other than a wing and a prayer.

Yes small bomb groups can now damage more players.
BUT large groups can also hit many many more players for much much more damage over much much bigger area.
BUT pug groups who don't coordinate can also hit many many more people and not wipe them too.
So all your arguments about wiping large groups is irrelevant as it only works for bomb groups.

PVP is pointless with LAG. Cap removal is not a cure. Its a stab in the dark and hope for the best that works well of coordinated bombs groups and lags out everyone else.
vis-a-vis.... be a large bomb group or go home.

That's is not compatible with solo and small group play that @Wrobel is trying to encourage.

We had Lag before 1.6...no one has argued this.
Lag went to a whole other level when AoE caps were rasied to 60 from 6 because all of you cried "remove AoE caps".
You had your way once....and now scream...we need to hit even more targets with even more damage.
It failed. It was proven to fail with 1.6 and the cap rise from 6 to 60 targets.
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY LOWERED CAMPAIGN POPULATION AND BEGGED PEOPLE TO SPREAD OUT SINCE 1.6 ?
It had no effect on the ball groups and if anything the ball groups have got bigger and more numerous since...because they have been empowered rather than culled.

If you hit 100 people stacked ontop of them with multiple AOE's without a cap..they'll all be dead...Where as right now if you hit say 60 people (the cap) with multiple AOE's...they'll probably still be alive..It takes longer to kill them..they require more AOE's to be used..Each time you hit them with that AOE..you have to do multiple passes to determine which gets hit for 100%; which gets hit for like 30% ect ect...

Basically its not the initial bomb that brings the server to its knee's..its when they're still standing in the same spot after 10 seconds of the initial bomb spamming AOE's

As for talking about Lag in a whole other level before 1.6

No..we've talked about this before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFi1SYcaFQ

July of last year

So you have 100 people all within the same healing circle (your targeted area) and you think 4 players are going to kill anyone with smart heals going off ?
Especially if your 4 strikes land over 4 ticks instead of 1 tick with the lag affecting different players latency in different ways.

I really cant believe anything anyone says if they think more players hit does not equal more server calculations and client updates to make.
Clearly they have never coded anything in their life.
Its really such a no brainer its not even worthy of discussion.

Probably why wrobel hasn't even merited the discussion with a response TBH.

Fine. Lets cap aoes at 40 - 33.3% less than now but without any dmg dropoff??? Less cap less calculations and no dropoff calculations - yaaaaaaaaay?

[edited to remove quote]

Rune_Relic

@Merlight ...really.

LMAO! ....Denial huh.

Talcyndl

Derra wrote: »

He is a stam Dk. So - yeah. I get that your rhoughtprocess is:

Well, I'm currently experimenting with him as a tanky DK, but....

I understand that a sorc would love bolt that can be cast several times without risk of interruption. I prefer having a counter - especially when it can be counter-countered (other than spammable ambush).

Derra

Talcyndl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

He is a stam Dk. So - yeah. I get that your rhoughtprocess is:

Well, I'm currently experimenting with him as a tanky DK, but....

I understand that a sorc would love bolt that can be cast several times without risk of interruption. I prefer having a counter - especially when it can be counter-countered (other than spammable ambush).

But the guy you argue with is no sorc... He is a dk

Talcyndl

Derra wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

He is a stam Dk. So - yeah. I get that your rhoughtprocess is:

Well, I'm currently experimenting with him as a tanky DK, but....

I understand that a sorc would love bolt that can be cast several times without risk of interruption. I prefer having a counter - especially when it can be counter-countered (other than spammable ambush).

But the guy you argue with is no sorc... He is a dk

He's talking about not being able to "disengage". Which we all know, DK have never been able to disengage, mini-stun or not.

Jhunn

Talcyndl wrote: »

He's talking about not being able to "disengage". Which we all know, DK have never been able to disengage, mini-stun or not.

.........

Give up Derra

Merlight

Rune_Relic wrote: »

If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I really cant believe anything anyone says if they think more players hit does not equal more server calculations and client updates to make.
Clearly they have never coded anything in their life.
Its really such a no brainer its not even worthy of discussion.

I objected to your throwing around random numbers that might appear sensible to someone using only common sense. If you ever coded, you should know that not every problem has linear complexity. 100 people = 100x calculations is nonsense.

Let's have an example. You're in a room with 20 other people, and your task is to give me the names of 5 with the thinnest left wrist. So you ask each person their name and measure their wrist, write that down and after you have all 20 find the 5 thinnest. If your task was to give me 10 names instead, would it be twice as hard? No.

Rune_Relic

Derra wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

We disagree and I'm really not going to use more time arguing for the AOE caps removal, because it won't change a [snip] thing apparantly. You'll have to explain this, though, to me:

Talcyndl wrote: »

The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.

How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?

If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.
Is it really that difficult to grasp the effect AoE caps has on client updates at the server and client updates that then have to go from server to clients via the network ?

I would suggest @Talcyndl understands the ramifications of AoE caps far better than a few on here.

You think destroying large groups is the priority in reducing lag.
Yet seem oblivious removing caps empowers them at the same time as you.
And have absolutely no regard for server performance and lag other than a wing and a prayer.

Yes small bomb groups can now damage more players.
BUT large groups can also hit many many more players for much much more damage over much much bigger area.
BUT pug groups who don't coordinate can also hit many many more people and not wipe them too.
So all your arguments about wiping large groups is irrelevant as it only works for bomb groups.

PVP is pointless with LAG. Cap removal is not a cure. Its a stab in the dark and hope for the best that works well of coordinated bombs groups and lags out everyone else.
vis-a-vis.... be a large bomb group or go home.

That's is not compatible with solo and small group play that @Wrobel is trying to encourage.

We had Lag before 1.6...no one has argued this.
Lag went to a whole other level when AoE caps were rasied to 60 from 6 because all of you cried "remove AoE caps".
You had your way once....and now scream...we need to hit even more targets with even more damage.
It failed. It was proven to fail with 1.6 and the cap rise from 6 to 60 targets.
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY LOWERED CAMPAIGN POPULATION AND BEGGED PEOPLE TO SPREAD OUT SINCE 1.6 ?
It had no effect on the ball groups and if anything the ball groups have got bigger and more numerous since...because they have been empowered rather than culled.

If you hit 100 people stacked ontop of them with multiple AOE's without a cap..they'll all be dead...Where as right now if you hit say 60 people (the cap) with multiple AOE's...they'll probably still be alive..It takes longer to kill them..they require more AOE's to be used..Each time you hit them with that AOE..you have to do multiple passes to determine which gets hit for 100%; which gets hit for like 30% ect ect...

Basically its not the initial bomb that brings the server to its knee's..its when they're still standing in the same spot after 10 seconds of the initial bomb spamming AOE's

As for talking about Lag in a whole other level before 1.6

No..we've talked about this before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFi1SYcaFQ

July of last year

So you have 100 people all within the same healing circle (your targeted area) and you think 4 players are going to kill anyone with smart heals going off ?
Especially if your 4 strikes land over 4 ticks instead of 1 tick with the lag affecting different players latency in different ways.

I really cant believe anything anyone says if they think more players hit does not equal more server calculations and client updates to make.
Clearly they have never coded anything in their life.
Its really such a no brainer its not even worthy of discussion.

Probably why wrobel hasn't even merited the discussion with a response TBH.

Fine. Lets cap aoes at 40 - 33.3% less than now but without any dmg dropoff??? Less cap less calculations and no dropoff calculations - yaaaaaaaaay?

That's not what I am saying Derra.
I agree small groups need a buff vs big groups (or more accurately big ball groups are the number 2 problem after lag).
I agree drop-off should never ever ever ever have been introduced for any reason.
I also agree being able to only hit 6 people for full power when the max group size is 24 is absolutely nonsensical with smart heals.

What I do disagree with is that raising AoE caps has absolutely no negative impact on server performance and lag.

I want Lag free....small group viable PVP.
I want ball group domination removed.
Exactly the same as most of the people I am apparently arguing with.
Even the x pro ball group appear to be on my side too.
The irony is quite unfathomable.

[edited to remove quote]

Jhunn

You still haven't properly explained why it would affect server perfomance negatively.

And don't bring something up like 'Cuz I can hit 1000 people so it's more calculations'.

Talcyndl

Jhunn wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

He's talking about not being able to "disengage". Which we all know, DK have never been able to disengage, mini-stun or not.

.........

Give up Derra

I am interested in how you think the current mini-stun prevents disengagement on an "ongoing" basis. Is it being hit by multiple players?

SturgeHammer

Wrobel wrote: »

The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

A big damage buff to reflective light and silver shards would be nice for this.

I55UE5

So many feelings in just one thread.

Talcyndl

Derra wrote: »

[snip]

Putting aside all the snark....

Can you explain how the current mini-stun system prevents disengagement on an "ongoing" basis? Again, are you talking about a situation with multiple attackers all stunning you?

[edited to remove quote]

Rune_Relic

Jhunn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

[
So you have 100 people all within the same healing circle (your targeted area) and you think 4 players are going to kill anyone with smart heals going off ?
Especially if your 4 strikes land over 4 ticks instead of 1 tick with the lag affecting different players latency in different ways.

I really cant believe anything anyone says if they think more players hit does not equal more server calculations and client updates to make.
Clearly they have never coded anything in their life.
Its really such a no brainer its not even worthy of discussion.

Probably why wrobel hasn't even merited the discussion with a response TBH.

Stop using 100 people as an example. You'll never have 100 enemies in an AOE area in this game. You'll never have more than 60 people, which is the current cap. You understand this, yes? Removal of AOE caps won't make you hit 'more people', because there will simply not be more than 60 people to hit at once, that will never happen. You understand if you hit 60 people right now, yes, where 6/24/30 people has to take calculated damage? For every AOE? Yes? With no AOE cap you'll hit all 60 people without any need for extra calculations? Yes?

[snip]

You'll never have more than 60 people.

Gross assumption on your part. [snip]
You haven't been in the campaigns I have and seen the people standing on keep flags.
And what happens if PVP gets really silly and does have 100 people all balling up like some games ?
What happens if ball groups keep getting more and more popular and bigger and bigger to WIN ?
There is absolutely NOTHING stopping ball groups being any size they want other than the Campaign POP CAP.

Removal of AoE caps wont make you hit more people.

Your 4 man group could only hit 24 people at one time.....now you can potentially hit 240 at once.
1.6 increased the potential calcs 10 fold.... and everyone paid the price when 1.6 dropped.
This needs reversing and the cap reduced until its suitable for the number of players on screen.

Answer the question instead of swerving it every single time.....WHY DID ZOS REPEATEDLY REDUCE CAMPAIGN SIZE AND TELL EVERYONE TO SPREAD OUT AFTER 1.6 DROPPED ?
I assume you know the answer but just refuse to accept it....aka denial.

With no AOE cap you'll hit all 60 people without any need for extra calculations?

You'll hit any one and everyone that's crammed in the AoE radius (how big they get is an assumption).
And how many are in the AoE radius is defined by the ball group size and not the label on the skill info (carpet bombing).
A 24 man coordinated group can carpet bomb a massive area and hit everyone in a keep in one tick
How much those selection circles overlap determine the damage multiplyer.
There is NO LIMIT on how many players can stand in this area ...except Population Caps (if you remove AoE caps).

[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

Derra

Talcyndl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

[snip]

Putting aside all the snark....

Can you explain how the current mini-stun system prevents disengagement on an "ongoing" basis? Again, are you talking about a situation with multiple attackers all stunning you?

Exactly that. Multiple attackers prevent you from moving at all even under the effects of shuffle or rapid maneuver.

That's the issue.

[edited to remove quote]

Talcyndl

Derra wrote: »

Exactly that. Multiple attackers prevent you from moving at all even under the effects of shuffle or rapid maneuver.

That's the issue.

Ok. So when @Wrobel says:

Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move.

We can ask whether he is simply referring to spammed Ambush by the same player or if he intends to address gap closers cast by multiple players in short succession. If it's the second one, then that would fix the problem (assuming the fix works), correct?

timidobserver

@Wrobel

Okay.....

After reading your post, I can read between the lines to see that you are not willing to remove the AoE Cap at this time because you think it would have a negative impact on tactical game play. Fair enough.

If you won't remove AoE Caps, how about adjusting them. Increase the amount of players that take full damage and/or increase the amount of partial damage that players take. The idea would be to adjust the numbers so stacking up isn't an easy way to reduce your incoming damage without making AoEs so powerful that they negatively impact tactical play.

Lucky28

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

That is all good and well, and i understand it. However, this is exactly what we have right now, people balling up into one huge group and spamming one or two abilities. the removal of AOE caps would make players think more about their positioning not less.

it's not really that AOE are too powerful as is, it's just because of AOE caps there is no counter for these ball groups that spam them. the AOE cap is what makes that so.

And the buff to Siege damage is great. however, when you do run into these groups what are you gonna do?, slap down a siege and hope they don't send a nightblade?. it's an option but it shouldn't be the only option and it's not always a viable option. it is situational.

Talcyndl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

He is a stam Dk. So - yeah. I get that your rhoughtprocess is:

Well, I'm currently experimenting with him as a tanky DK, but....

I understand that a sorc would love bolt that can be cast several times without risk of interruption. I prefer having a counter - especially when it can be counter-countered (other than spammable ambush).

But the guy you argue with is no sorc... He is a dk

He's talking about not being able to "disengage". Which we all know, DK have never been able to disengage, mini-stun or not.

The way gap closer are right now, you cannot roll dodge, you cannot counter with your own timed attack you cannot do anything but sit there and take it. it is not fine the way it is and that's all there is too it.

and remove AOE caps.

Talcyndl

Lucky28 wrote: »

The way gap closer are right now, you cannot roll dodge, you cannot counter with your own timed attack you cannot do anything but sit there and take it. it is not fine the way it is and that's all there is too it.

Two different issues here.

(1) You can roll dodge away from gap closers and avoid the damage (at least you can for stampede).

(2) The mini-stun can't be avoided. Personally, I think that's a good thing because it provides a counter to the interminable kiting that would make melee close to impossible otherwise.

Edit to add: I'm all for limiting the mini-stun so it doesn't continue to be a perma-stun in certain situations (multiple enemies using gap closers and ambush spam).

Sublime

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets.

Let me get a bit more into details regarding this statement:


Not having to aim the skills makes the use a lot easier as it can be activated whenever desired.

First lets get the aspects I agree on out of the way, as long as there are multiple (~5+) enemies within the radius PBAoE's certainly are stronger when compared to single target abilities. Additionally they get stronger (damage/use) the more players are in the area.

However, against 1-2 targets single targets excel by far.

Additionally you forgot to add that players stack because they get 34.5% free mitigation against AOE spells. (added for completiion's sake, as you probably have read it about 5k times)

Now let's combine this information together:
Due to Purge and the AOE mitigation of the caps stacking becomes very beneficial. As a result AOE abilities will be used very often since stacked groups are their biggest strength. Since everybody wants to kill enemies as fast as possible stacking AOE's becomes the best solution. This leaves us with a vicious circle and the negative side-effect of bombsquads.

So how do we break this vicious circle?

You basically make X changes to combat this:

• Buff siege weapons
• Buff GTAoE class abilities
• Nerf the radius of Steel Tornado
• Make Magicka Detonation more powerful against multiple targets

Regarding bullet point one to three I think they are going to help, the implementation will tell if it's enough.

Regarding point four, I basically like the idea, but I have some concerns:

Based on the design I assume that Magicka Detonation should be a tool for one or few players to break up a big group, This works as long as the burst damage is high enough, since stacked groups benefit from very high healing and a lot of buffs. Additionally Magicka Detonation is far less effective than one might assume due to the existence of AOE caps. I.e. buffing in general is a good step in my opinion but it has to be done correctly. To make the effect of the AOE cap more clear I made a graph which clearly shows how the damage output changes based on targets hit:

(Those stats are assuming a base damage of 5k and a continuous 5% damage increase per player hit)



And the remaining numbers:





As you can see, even though the bonus at 60 players is at 300%, the damage only increases linearly, due to the AOE caps. Yes the first 6 players would get a huge damage spike, but since there are 54 other players it requires more than 10 Magicka Detonations layered on top of each other in order to reliably kill an enemy bombsquad. Obviously this would result in the same gameplay as we have now. That doesn't mean buffing Magicka Detonation is a bad way, but either of two things have to go along with it: Either remove the AOE caps for the skill, or make sure it has the right scaling. I'd suggest either exponentially or at least 20% per player hit.

If you intend to implement a cap, I'd suggest to put it at 50k non-crit (due to blocking/spell resistance/shields) and ~10 players hit. No matter which scaling.

Poetrixx

Please @Wrobel, hire @Sublime

MLRPZ

@Sublime

prootch

actually laughing my [SNIP] off on aoe decap

now very interesting :
less aoe spamball efficiency due to less steel tornadoe and more ranged damage ... good
steel tornadoe should not be an exec either... better

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Sublime

I forgot to add some things to yesterday's post:

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado [...] is much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets.

While this statement is certainly true regarding Steel Stornado, I have to add that my agreement diminishes the smaller the radius of a given PBAoE gets. I.e. at a certain point AOE caps no longer benefit the victims of bombsquads since they are no longer clustered up enough to reach 6 players within a given area. In practice this means, that the dangerous zone is smaller, but the damage dealt to players inside the area is higher, as there are less players within the are, therefore reducing the effectiveness of AOE caps.

As a conclusion we can determine two statements:
1. The smaller the radius of a PBAoE, the higher the damage a non-organized player takes when in the line of a bombsquad. (If AOE caps are active)
2. The smaller the radius of a PBAoE, the fewer targets are hit by a bombsquad.
3. At a certain point unorganized players no longer get any benefit from AOE caps, since they are not clustered enough.

As for my statement regarding Magicka Detonation, I realized that having 50k hits in PvP could cause problems for PvE, thus I'd like to make two suggestions:

1. Thread: [Idea] Skill against Bombsquads (Artificial Player Collision)
2. Switch up the changes you made to the two morphs of Magicka Detonation. I.e. leave Proximity Detonation at a 2s channel and 4s cooldown time and remove the cast time from Inevitable Detonation while increasing the cooldown timer to 8s. This should force bombsquads to slow down to cast Proximity Detonation making them more vulnerable to incoming attacks. On the other hand it would be easier to cast Inevitable Detonation thanks to the instantaneous cast. The key point here is that since bombsquads tend to purge a lot and the ranged version explodes upon purging, unorganized players would in practice be able to spam this skill against raids without reseting the timer.

jrkhan

@Rune_Relic
I think most people would be happy with an AOE cap where the first 60 people took full damage.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've hit 25+ players in a single attack (based on FTC), and yes, I've spammed steel tornado against groups stacking on flags just as much as the next guy

In the rare case where there are more than 60 people?

Either no damage (I guess I can see this causing a problem if people decide they really want their aoe cap reduction and literally bring 100 people to a fight)

Or, just insta-gib targets 60+.
Sure, it's one additional calculation to hit them, but it would really discourage stacking that many.

---

And in danger of repeating myself, to change the falloff damage for targets 6-60,
all we are doing is removing multiplying by a float from the damage calculation.
There can't be an appreciable effect from this one way or the other.

Derra

Well on topic @Wrobel would you mind explaining what people should do against being outnumbered in places where there is no siege available? Like the whole "pvp" DLC you´ve just released three months ago?

Still waiting for a reply of @FENGRUSH but i guess the noble orc just commited seppuku when he read the whipped nonsense the lead combat designer had to add to this topic (aoe caps won´t go but i´ll nerf your steeltornado - eat that greenskin ).

MrGrimey

I just want to be clear (since @wrobel went off topic and addressed gap closers)

That it's not just ambush that is causing the problem... ITS EVERY GAP CLOSER! Trying to run from a Zerg and having 4 people crit charge, toppling charge and ambush all while snaring makes it impossible to escape while being greatly outnumbered.

People say that solo/small groups have the advantage of being more mobile than Zergs, but with the way that ALL gap closers and snares work, that is not the case.

To address this, the gap closer root should not apply while the player is cc immuned. Or even just get rid of the gap closer root all together, but speed up their travel speed so they can still hit reliably from a distance.

timidobserver

jrkhan wrote: »

@Rune_Relic
I think most people would be happy with an AOE cap where the first 60 people took full damage.

I would be happy with 20 taking full damage and with a buff to the partial damage.

MrGrimey

I also want to add about the subject of magicka det. The single target damage of magicka det shouldn't be modified that much. It's not an easy ability to land, it either has a long cast time, the tool tip says 1.8 seconds, but in lag it's literally 3-4 seconds, or the instant version takes 8 seconds to detonate. Many magicka builds depend on that ability to do damage that can hang with the high weapon damage stamina builds. Nerfing it too much will further handicap magicka builds in small scale and 1 on 1 fights.

As for the buff on hitting Zergs, this ability won't do a thing if AOE caps are still in place, get rid of those. damage per target hit needs to either go up more than 5% per target hit, or remove the 25% cap and increase it to something like 10 hit for 50% extra damage. Why are 10 people in such a close proximity anyways? They deserve to die