AoE Caps Discussion

Rakno87

FENGRUSH wrote: »

It is finally here, and the opening post leads me to believe were talking about issues around large scale PvP instead of AOE caps - so Im going to jump right in on this.

Wrobel wrote: »

Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Ive heard this idea dropped in one of our We Are ESO podcasts by you before Wrobel and Id like to strike at it in more detail. If healing and damage mechanics were the same (picking random targets) this issue with AOE caps wouldnt be as bad as they are. But because of smart healing (which I dont expect you to remove or change due to it being core to your game since its inception) is what makes the damage get the short end of the stick.


If youre hitting 16 people, and 6 for full at a time, youre picking 6 different targets each time. If youre hitting 24, or 30 players, the statistical chance you hit the target that you wanted to hit, who you previously put the most damage on, keeps getting worse and worse. Ultimately, its extremely unlikely to hit the target you want and burst that guy down. Instead, you have to throw out overwhelming amounts of damage and actually out damage their healing by a large margin in a short span of time (something not possible when significantly outnumbered. This becomes impossible when you factor in templar ult for reduction but more importantly: barrier.

Now you mentioned barrier, which is great. This ability absolutely and completely counters a burst from realistically happening. It also is compounded by the fact that you cant even crit shields (an issue shared with small scale magicka sorcs - but to stay on course here) the amount of uncrittable damage 1 barrier provides a full group is absolutely ridiculous.

All in all, AOE caps creates a situation that encourages you to bring numbers SIMPLY BECAUSE THE MORE YOU HAVE, THE MORE CHANCE YOULL TAKE 50% DAMAGE. It creates quantity over quality. Quantity already provides you the advantage of having more tools and bodies at your disposal.

I really wont be satisfied with anything short of full removal of AOE caps - because if you just raise the bar up, you have the same issue at a larger scale and youre not fixing the problem, youre promoting a worse one. To have more people stack more people.


Whoever takes the most damage, will get all of the heals, because smart healing targets whoever is lowest. Damage is randomly picking targets. Because of this design - you need to remove AOE caps.

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful.

Single target abilities will still be useful - 100%. In fact, I cant even AOE groups if theyre too big, the only viable option is to use single target to hope to burst through specific people. AOE is good, but its only as good as the numbers you have AOEing and the difference between what youre AOEing against. Again, the meta now because of the 50% damage nerf this patch is all about numbers. 50% less damage, then 50% from AOE caps if youre not the unlucky 6.

With that said - you should be discouraging people from balling up all of the time. THERE IS NO THREAT, NO RISK, NO REASON NOT TO. Fixing det is a good first step, but you shouldnt put 1 skill in the game that is the end all be all of countering these ball groups. The game design IS NOT GOOD to encourage this style of play. THERE MUST BE RISK INVOLVED, OR EVERYONE WILL DO IT. This is what Cyrodiil has become, because that is what has been promoted by all of these changes.

When players are forced to split and scatter to avoid the damage or ults of another group trying to strike at them while theyre all grouped, THAT is when you would switch to single target. That is how you bring single target combat back into this equation. But a lot of these groups, they dont even use single target at all. Because you dont give them a reason to. They have gap closers, survivals, buffs/utility, and AOE. They will literally gap closer and use steel tornado because it may be there best skill to damage with. If you created a reason for people that they HAD TO SCATTER they would switch to their single target, and back to AOE when they have the ability to counter in the same fashion.

This style of PvP existed more before, it exists less today.

Wrobel wrote: »

The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it.

This plays into the first part but I want to come back to it again. A large group may take 500k damage, but a barrier will eat up most of that (this is post mitigation damage too, so its being spread pretty slowly) - and technically none of those people could have dropped below 10k hp despite receiving an equal amount of healing, because the smart healing is going to prioritize those who need it, while the damage is being spread all over the place. This system is so screwed up - Im not even sure how it can be tolerated as a thing for mass PvP.

It sends a clear message to me. You want the game to be more casual friendly and youre giving people a cushion so they dont have to play as well, or try as much. You dont want them to die easily and become discouraged. The reality is, youve lost just as much playerbase creating a ball group meta that has smothered your servers performance, its backfired in a gruesome way.

Additionally, this patch, more than any other, should allow players to take on AOE damage with the damage reduction, whereas in 1.6, it was easier to burst down with AOE. I get this game is for everyone, and I dont want to discourage people from playing it by making it too hard. But ultimately you have great players making great ball groups too that will crush these more casual players getting into larger groups if you actually did remove AOE caps just as well.

Removing AOE caps needs to be done because the game in its current state is 100% about quantity over quality. It has never before been as much about it as it is now, and if you dont take radical action to change this, you will lose what remains of players that want to create a great PvP environment. Theres a lot of alternatives around the corner - not to derail/threaten this offtopic, but its a reality. You need change quickly, and if you dont, a lot of the players who have stuck around through a lot of crap, are out once they find that magic we felt in earlier days of Cyro somewhere else.

Wrobel wrote: »

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

We use this on We are ESO podcasts, and its true - but I dont even know why you need to say this. Its like a reassurance to ball groups and zergs that you arent willing to make changes to bring things where they need to be. Which is GIVING EVERYONE A FAIR SHOT IN A FIGHT



Changes that should be made:

Immediate changes:

Step 1) Remove AOE caps [No discussion needed] (Wrobel Team)
Step 2) Change Barrier & Purge [Discussion needed: How do you do this? If you cast 1 barrier in a 24 man group and it hits 12, will a 2nd one hit the 12 who didnt get it? This will change things where groups simply run 2 barriers at a time. Will it randomly pick targets? This changes the design of it, and not necessarily in a bad way, but will alter how its functionally used by ball groups today. As far as purge is concerned, this will still be used to the effect it is today, even if you limited targets down to 4, they would assign 3-6 people that can purge. Consider how strong purge is and how it effects other things, like siege, otherwise changes here will be void.] (Wrobel Team)
Step 3) Make AP gains distributed equally across the board, no bonus for large groups. [No discussion needed] (Wheeler Team)
Step 4) Rework siege [Discussion needed - not testing] (Wheeler Team)


Post AOE caps:

Step 5) Evaluate Removal of AOE Caps; Discuss Dynamic Ult Gen [Discussion needed post AOE cap removal - NEW ult gen system, not like the old one, but not static] (Wrobel Team)

Going to stop there for now - because the list goes beyond mechanic changes at that point to design changes. The rest is design changes that can encourage people to be spread out, have other objectives and new things to do. Youve probably heard these ideas on the We Are ESO podcast if youve watched them. EI: City objectives and IC changes. These are mid/long term goals. The above is your short term IMMEDIATE goals that need to come in now.

THE HERO HAS ARRIVED TO LEAD THE CHARGE!!! @Wrobel pay attention here bud!

Sublime

There's a suggestion I forgot to add:

Allow group leaders to put different icons above the heads of other members. Similar to the crown just different icons. This would make splitting up a lot easier.

Erondil

prootch wrote: »

1 - there are no proof that aoe decap would eventually lower lag, and so called "calculation" are just lolcats facts when compared to the actual complexity of ingame fights. And as far as soz is concerned, they - do - have the server stats... wether they make good use (or any use) of them is another matter.

2 - aoe decap would certainly not be favourable to the vast majority of players, and certainly favour the most op organized aoe groups, among which yours... I fail to see how making aoe op instant kill more efficient would be favourable to the majority of players.

1-No bit as I explained before, logically it should reduce calculation eg reduce latency.
2-I already stated why it most likely would.
Now instead of ignoring everything I and many others wrote, reread and give counter arguments (if you have some) please.

PainfulFAFA

Sublime wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtN-rB0OQVU

Here is a video of some skills without AoE cap at 1.1

Beautiful ;')

Mindlessly spamming aoes like a zerg is gonna get you killed. Thats how it was back then, thats how it should be now.

A couple of points:

• dynamic ult generation (i.e. the more the easier)
• he was consciously using AOE's to build up ultimate, so I don't why this would be mindless
• AOE type skills are most likely intended to be the superior choice against larger groups (again, conscious decision)

Couple of things i should've clear up

1) You can clearly see his Batswarm Ulti build up THREE TIMES in the span of like 10 seconds. IMO thats too much. I wouldn't want players building up ULTIS that fast and that frequent. Not saying Dynamic Ulti Regen is bad just saying it would need some tweaking. BRING BACK DYNAMIC ULTI REGEN

2) I was not referring to the ONE guys has a mindless AoE spammer -_-. That ball group of 10-15 did nothing but stack in a ball and press 1 button. They didn't move. Didn't react. Thats what got that ball group killed by 4 guys. With the current AoE caps, that mindless ball group would have been successful and all they were doing was pushing 1 button.

3)I feel like i keep repeating myself in this thread.Nobody is saying AoE skills is not the superior choice. Back in the day, a combination of AoEs and well placed Ultis could wipe large ball groups. What we have today is simply not enough. Ulti regen is static, which means that once you use your ulti, the speed of regening that Ulti back is still the same, whereas before you could build it up many times within that same fight.

AoE skills TODAY is not as efficient because you will only hit 6 people for 100% of the dmg. Anything hit after 6 people just disregard it because on top of all the blanket nerfs that ZoS has implemented, you're still doing 25%-50% of your damage. Oh, and they can easily heal up. However, doing your AoE skill again doesnt guarantee you hitting those same 6 targets, hence why you have players buffing up, dropping their Ults, and spamming their 1 AoE skill hoping that 1 or 2 guys drop.

But all this is AoE talk is null when all you can do is spam healing springs, breath of life, barrier, and purge. That Ulti you dropped and those 10 AoE spams you did wont mean anything. Which is why all you can do is bring more numbers.

And we all know what happens when you bring more numbers into a fight in the same location....
But ZoS wants us to spread out remember? ......

Xsorus

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtN-rB0OQVU

Here is a video of some skills without AoE cap at 1.1

Beautiful ;')

Mindlessly spamming aoes like a zerg is gonna get you killed. Thats how it was back then, thats how it should be now.

A couple of points:

• dynamic ult generation (i.e. the more the easier)
• he was consciously using AOE's to build up ultimate, so I don't why this would be mindless
• AOE type skills are most likely intended to be the superior choice against larger groups (again, conscious decision)

Couple of things i should've clear up

1) You can clearly see his Batswarm Ulti build up THREE TIMES in the span of like 10 seconds. IMO thats too much. I wouldn't want players building up ULTIS that fast and that frequent. Not saying Dynamic Ulti Regen is bad just saying it would need some tweaking. BRING BACK DYNAMIC ULTI REGEN

2) I was not referring to the ONE guys has a mindless AoE spammer -_-. That ball group of 10-15 did nothing but stack in a ball and press 1 button. They didn't move. Didn't react. Thats what got that ball group killed by 4 guys. With the current AoE caps, that mindless ball group would have been successful and all they were doing was pushing 1 button.

3)I feel like i keep repeating myself in this thread.Nobody is saying AoE skills is not the superior choice. Back in the day, a combination of AoEs and well placed Ultis could wipe large ball groups. What we have today is simply not enough. Ulti regen is static, which means that once you use your ulti, the speed of regening that Ulti back is still the same, whereas before you could build it up many times within that same fight.

AoE skills TODAY is not as efficient because you will only hit 6 people for 100% of the dmg. Anything hit after 6 people just disregard it because on top of all the blanket nerfs that ZoS has implemented, you're still doing 25%-50% of your damage. Oh, and they can easily heal up. However, doing your AoE skill again doesnt guarantee you hitting those same 6 targets, hence why you have players buffing up, dropping their Ults, and spamming their 1 AoE skill hoping that 1 or 2 guys drop.

But all this is AoE talk is null when all you can do is spam healing springs, breath of life, barrier, and purge. That Ulti you dropped and those 10 AoE spams you did wont mean anything. Which is why all you can do is bring more numbers.

And we all know what happens when you bring more numbers into a fight in the same location....
But ZoS wants us to spread out remember? ......

To be fair; most were dead from Wall of Elements and the first Batswarm

MrGrimey

Has anyone actually tried explaining why keeping AOE caps would be beneficial to any group besides Zergs?

I don't see how any form of AOE caps will encourage players to spread out and improve performance

Sublime

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtN-rB0OQVU

Here is a video of some skills without AoE cap at 1.1

Beautiful ;')

Mindlessly spamming aoes like a zerg is gonna get you killed. Thats how it was back then, thats how it should be now.

A couple of points:

• dynamic ult generation (i.e. the more the easier)
• he was consciously using AOE's to build up ultimate, so I don't why this would be mindless
• AOE type skills are most likely intended to be the superior choice against larger groups (again, conscious decision)

Couple of things i should've clear up

1) You can clearly see his Batswarm Ulti build up THREE TIMES in the span of like 10 seconds. IMO thats too much. I wouldn't want players building up ULTIS that fast and that frequent. Not saying Dynamic Ulti Regen is bad just saying it would need some tweaking. BRING BACK DYNAMIC ULTI REGEN

2) I was not referring to the ONE guys has a mindless AoE spammer -_-. That ball group of 10-15 did nothing but stack in a ball and press 1 button. They didn't move. Didn't react. Thats what got that ball group killed by 4 guys. With the current AoE caps, that mindless ball group would have been successful and all they were doing was pushing 1 button.

3)I feel like i keep repeating myself in this thread.Nobody is saying AoE skills is not the superior choice. Back in the day, a combination of AoEs and well placed Ultis could wipe large ball groups. What we have today is simply not enough. Ulti regen is static, which means that once you use your ulti, the speed of regening that Ulti back is still the same, whereas before you could build it up many times within that same fight.

AoE skills TODAY is not as efficient because you will only hit 6 people for 100% of the dmg. Anything hit after 6 people just disregard it because on top of all the blanket nerfs that ZoS has implemented, you're still doing 25%-50% of your damage. Oh, and they can easily heal up. However, doing your AoE skill again doesnt guarantee you hitting those same 6 targets, hence why you have players buffing up, dropping their Ults, and spamming their 1 AoE skill hoping that 1 or 2 guys drop.

But all this is AoE talk is null when all you can do is spam healing springs, breath of life, barrier, and purge. That Ulti you dropped and those 10 AoE spams you did wont mean anything. Which is why all you can do is bring more numbers.

And we all know what happens when you bring more numbers into a fight in the same location....
But ZoS wants us to spread out remember? ......

Sorry, I thought you were being ironic. But ye, I pretty much agree.

ToRelax

MrGrimey wrote: »

Has anyone actually tried explaining why keeping AOE caps would be beneficial to any group besides Zergs?

I don't see how any form of AOE caps will encourage players to spread out and improve performance

Well @Prootch told us that zergballs would stack up even more people thus become even more of a problem... wich is ofc a fallacy because stacking up more people to become as strong as they used to be wouldn't actually make the problem worse for anyone but people like the fabled @Prootch himself who just don't use AoE even when it would be effective. Wich, btw, is complete ***, he is leading a raid on his own and even though I see them spamming less AoE than more effective groups, they are using them.

The funny part starts when you think about his own proposal, wich is just removing AoE completely, wich is not only unrealistic (wich admittedly he wrote himself), but would also either hurt his own group - because enemies stack up more people, to make them ahrder to target - or that would be what he'd do himself, and I just hope no one wants zergballs using single target spells effectively who can't be hit by AoE at all... yeah...

MrGrimey

ToRelax wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Has anyone actually tried explaining why keeping AOE caps would be beneficial to any group besides Zergs?

I don't see how any form of AOE caps will encourage players to spread out and improve performance

Well @Prootch told us that zergballs would stack up even more people thus become even more of a problem... wich is ofc a fallacy because stacking up more people to become as strong as they used to be wouldn't actually make the problem worse for anyone but people like the fabled @Prootch himself who just don't use AoE even when it would be effective. Wich, btw, is complete ***, he is leading a raid on his own and even though I see them spamming less AoE than more effective groups, they are using them.

The funny part starts when you think about his own proposal, wich is just removing AoE completely, wich is not only unrealistic (wich admittedly he wrote himself), but would also either hurt his own group - because enemies stack up more people, to make them ahrder to target - or that would be what he'd do himself, and I just hope no one wants zergballs using single target spells effectively who can't be hit by AoE at all... yeah...

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense... The burden of proof is on those who want AOE caps, since people that don't want AOE caps can look at live gameplay for proof that AOE caps encourage zerging and stacking and provide an unfair advantage to large groups besides having a number advantage.

Even if no AOE caps existed, Zergers would still have a huge advantage over small groups. And the only way a small group will be able to wipe a large group is by outplaying them. Nothing wrong with that

Why is this even a discussion?

usmcjdking

You know, this might be a novel idea to some people but you do not need to directly change combat mechanics to nerf ball groups. Ball groups are effective because there is literally no reason not to just run around some farm and nuke people for AP.

- Remove AOE caps.
- Remove transitus network to and from non-home keeps
- Large AP gains for taking a keep. Larger AP gains for doing it quickly. As a matter of fact, this should be a completely separate scoring mechanic and give zone wide short term buffs and *** with billboard announcements from the Grand Warlord based on some keep scoring mechanics. Give up a free keep and get a big ass short term debuff.
- Lower AP for killing people and less AP for afk healing spam.

Nifty2g

@usmcjdking I've read majority of your posts in this thread and it seems like you're missing the idea, the whole point of the thread was to have a discussion where the developers actually listen to the players that have seen the game go from great to subpar over the months due to the changes.Instead of calling it a sea of garbage contribute to the conversation and not call players worthless and can easily be replaced. Obviously this isn't what the thread was created for.

As for the podcast some of it is good and some of it gets offtopic calling people scrubs and such but to be fair I only listen to Fengrush's segments since he tells it how it is, and I hope someone combines all of what he says in those podcasts together and sends it to the developers, most of that needs to be heard.

#removeaoecaps

It's funny actually, I was reading through the youtube of that video that was posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o

Published on 27 Apr 2014
This is a LIVE footage from the game. AoE caps already exists on a lot of spells (Impulse for instance) and needs to be changed.
Please distinguish broken spells that needs to be balanced (Vampire ultimate, Bash spec etc) from AoE cap, it's another problem.

Derra

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

If someone feels they should exist i would like an explanation why they should exist. Especially from the developers of this game @Wrobel

Lava_Croft

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

I´ve not exploited myself. I´ve submitted these exploits with ingame bug reports. I´ve told the players i don´t like what they´re doing. I will not stop playing with my friends because the game developers don´t fix their bugs almost everyone was abusing back then.

I´ve fought exploiters (nirn/doublemundus/magelight) myself - i did not complain to the players. I´ve complained in the direction of @ZOS for allowing it.

The same [snip] thing i´m doing now. Please just stop your attemps at discrediting me and try not to be as insular as you are.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Lava_Croft

If you proclaim to be in favor of a fair PvP experience yet you have no problems to team up with people who exploit for months on end, you are just a bit full of the poo poo. If by 'fair' you mean that it's not negatively affecting you, then I know what you mean.

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

If you proclaim to be in favor of a fair PvP experience yet you have no problems to team up with people who exploit for months on end, you are just a bit full of the poo poo. If by 'fair' you mean that it's not negatively affecting you, then I know what you mean.

...

I can not make decisions except for myself. Abusing a bug in a game i play for fun and the moral dilemma it might create is not more important for me than spending time with people i consider friends.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

RoamingRiverElk

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

We need a separate Kris & Views on Exploiting thread. It's derailing the conversation here. I agree with Derra on the unfair gameplay regarding AOE caps, regardless of how or with whom Derra or you have played the game.

Jhunn

@Wrobel this is what happens when you open an AOE caps discussion thread and go silent for 4 days. People go crazy

Lava_Croft

All I'm saying is that the argument about fairness doesn't add up for a lot of the people here, since if it doesn't negatively affect them, they have no trouble (ab)using it in their favor.

Derra

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

We need a separate Kris & Views on Exploiting thread. It's derailing the conversation here. I agree with Derra on the unfair gameplay regarding AOE caps, regardless of how or with whom Derra or you have played the game.

If you´re going down the road of acusing anyone who has ever played with an exploiter in not being interested in fair gameplay no matter of his own actions/words he´s just as guilty as anyone else bc i´m pretty sure there were ppl decked in nirn and doublemundus/magelight in his scrollraids back then.

Cinbri

Jhunn wrote: »

@Wrobel this is what happens when you open an AOE caps discussion thread and go silent for 4 days. People go crazy

Why this discussion even needs. There is no logic to save aoe caps if zos really want people to split on map like they claim.

Xsorus

Zerg balling isn't exploiting; not do I blame zergs for doing it (you just won't get any props from me) and you can do both and still want the caps gone. You are just playing to what are currently *** game play mechanics. For example the twin sister set; I ran it for months.. Then they bugged it so it constantly procced.. I wasn't about to stop using it just because.

Jar_Ek

Make all aoe do damage based on range from impact point.
So for example steel tornado does full damage if you are on top of your foe.

No aoe caps for number of targets.

Some abilities that are ground fields are fixed damage across the board - ie caltrops.

babanovac

Thread has derailed so much.

AoE caps need to go because they are unfair. There is absolutely no reason for them to exist. No one in this thread has yet given a single reason to support AoE caps.

Draxys

Derailment was bound to happen with such a hot topic and the pvp community being starved of developer attention (don't mean that in a derogatory sense, by the way).

Considering that the vast majority of people who have contributed to the discussion want the aoe caps removed, I think a sensible thing to do would be remove them on the pts and have a player/dev night scheduled (and well advertised) and see what happens.

usmcjdking

-Everyone here understands PVP is rubbish.
-Vast majority of people here hate ball groups.
-Everyone here hates unplayable Cyro lag.
-Everyone here wants an enjoyable experience.
-The damage done to PVP over the last year or so isn't unrecoverable, but it is catastrophic.

I don't particularly give a *** what @Wrobel decides to do with AOE caps as long as the above is addressed in it's entirety.

Jar_Ek

Addendum: Group barriers and shields should have aoe caps, as should healing. However the effects should be applied based solely on range from impact point. This (in theory) would make multiple coordinated small groups better than single large groups when combined with aoe damage being uncapped and based on range from impact point.

jrkhan

usmcjdking wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense

I'm not sure you realize how soft caps give the train the advantage - while not really helping out the unorganized defense at all.
The unorganized defense is usually, somewhat spread out.
They very rarely will have more than 6 people hit by the same AOE as it stands.

Explain to me how soft caps will further enable the pain trains?

Sorry - I think there was miscommunication.
The current 'soft AOE cap' was what I was referring to.
Soft caps on stats, are another matter

Stikato

usmcjdking wrote: »

-Everyone here understands PVP is rubbish.
-Vast majority of people here hate ball groups.
-Everyone here hates unplayable Cyro lag.
-Everyone here wants an enjoyable experience.
-The damage done to PVP over the last year or so isn't unrecoverable, but it is catastrophic.

I don't particularly give a *** what @Wrobel decides to do with AOE caps as long as the above is addressed in it's entirety.

And this is why the pvp podcast was not, as you put it, a waste of time.

Jhunn

@Wrobel thoughts...... pretty please?