AoE Caps Discussion

usmcjdking

You know, this might be a novel idea to some people but you do not need to directly change combat mechanics to nerf ball groups. Ball groups are effective because there is literally no reason not to just run around some farm and nuke people for AP.

- Remove AOE caps.
- Remove transitus network to and from non-home keeps
- Large AP gains for taking a keep. Larger AP gains for doing it quickly. As a matter of fact, this should be a completely separate scoring mechanic and give zone wide short term buffs and *** with billboard announcements from the Grand Warlord based on some keep scoring mechanics. Give up a free keep and get a big ass short term debuff.
- Lower AP for killing people and less AP for afk healing spam.

Nifty2g

@usmcjdking I've read majority of your posts in this thread and it seems like you're missing the idea, the whole point of the thread was to have a discussion where the developers actually listen to the players that have seen the game go from great to subpar over the months due to the changes.Instead of calling it a sea of garbage contribute to the conversation and not call players worthless and can easily be replaced. Obviously this isn't what the thread was created for.

As for the podcast some of it is good and some of it gets offtopic calling people scrubs and such but to be fair I only listen to Fengrush's segments since he tells it how it is, and I hope someone combines all of what he says in those podcasts together and sends it to the developers, most of that needs to be heard.

#removeaoecaps

It's funny actually, I was reading through the youtube of that video that was posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o

Published on 27 Apr 2014
This is a LIVE footage from the game. AoE caps already exists on a lot of spells (Impulse for instance) and needs to be changed.
Please distinguish broken spells that needs to be balanced (Vampire ultimate, Bash spec etc) from AoE cap, it's another problem.

Derra

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

If someone feels they should exist i would like an explanation why they should exist. Especially from the developers of this game @Wrobel

Lava_Croft

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

I´ve not exploited myself. I´ve submitted these exploits with ingame bug reports. I´ve told the players i don´t like what they´re doing. I will not stop playing with my friends because the game developers don´t fix their bugs almost everyone was abusing back then.

I´ve fought exploiters (nirn/doublemundus/magelight) myself - i did not complain to the players. I´ve complained in the direction of @ZOS for allowing it.

The same [snip] thing i´m doing now. Please just stop your attemps at discrediting me and try not to be as insular as you are.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Lava_Croft

If you proclaim to be in favor of a fair PvP experience yet you have no problems to team up with people who exploit for months on end, you are just a bit full of the poo poo. If by 'fair' you mean that it's not negatively affecting you, then I know what you mean.

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

If you proclaim to be in favor of a fair PvP experience yet you have no problems to team up with people who exploit for months on end, you are just a bit full of the poo poo. If by 'fair' you mean that it's not negatively affecting you, then I know what you mean.

...

I can not make decisions except for myself. Abusing a bug in a game i play for fun and the moral dilemma it might create is not more important for me than spending time with people i consider friends.

Maybe if you had any you would understand that.

RoamingRiverElk

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

We need a separate Kris & Views on Exploiting thread. It's derailing the conversation here. I agree with Derra on the unfair gameplay regarding AOE caps, regardless of how or with whom Derra or you have played the game.

Jhunn

@Wrobel this is what happens when you open an AOE caps discussion thread and go silent for 4 days. People go crazy

Lava_Croft

All I'm saying is that the argument about fairness doesn't add up for a lot of the people here, since if it doesn't negatively affect them, they have no trouble (ab)using it in their favor.

Derra

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to discuss performance atm.

AOE caps are not fair when a smaller grp is encountering a larger one.

There should not be and advantage in mechanics for bringing more people to a fight. It´s simply creating unfair gameplay which results in an unenjoyable gaming experience.

Imagine how fun football/soccer or just any other sport would be if the team with less money would also be penalized by making them wear workboots in the match against a wealthier team... The existance of caps does not make sense @Wrobel unless you don´t want a fair pvp experience for everyone (atleast on a gamemechanic level).

Play with people that exploit for months on end while at the same time claiming you want a fair PvP experience. Somewhere this doesn't add up.

(I oiled a blue from the top of Chalman Milegate, I know. It's not really an argument in this case.)

We need a separate Kris & Views on Exploiting thread. It's derailing the conversation here. I agree with Derra on the unfair gameplay regarding AOE caps, regardless of how or with whom Derra or you have played the game.

If you´re going down the road of acusing anyone who has ever played with an exploiter in not being interested in fair gameplay no matter of his own actions/words he´s just as guilty as anyone else bc i´m pretty sure there were ppl decked in nirn and doublemundus/magelight in his scrollraids back then.

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

All I'm saying is that the argument about fairness doesn't add up for a lot of the people here, since if it doesn't negatively affect them, they have no trouble (ab)using it in their favor.

Since i don´t abuse anything willingly myself and don´t condone the abuse of bugs there is no argument to be had. I´ve been affected by the abuse of these bugs just as anyone else (positively because players i played with used them and negatively because enemies abused them). Priority is and always will be with the persons i enjoy spending my freetime with.

I try to not judge anyone by my own personal moral standards because i´m trying my best not a self-righteous pr*ck most of the time (this does not keep me from arguing about it but ultimately i can only communicate my pov of things and people have to make their own concious decisions).

Lava_Croft

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

All I'm saying is that the argument about fairness doesn't add up for a lot of the people here, since if it doesn't negatively affect them, they have no trouble (ab)using it in their favor.

Since i don´t abuse anything willingly myself and don´t condone the abuse of bugs there is no argument to be had. I´ve been affected by the abuse of these bugs just as anyone else (positively because players i played with used them and negatively because enemies abused them). Priority is and always will be with the persons i enjoy spending my freetime with.

I try to not judge anyone by my own personal moral standards because i´m trying my best not a self-righteous pr*ck most of the time (this does not keep me from arguing about it but ultimately i can only communicate my pov of things and people have to make their own concious decisions).

It's not about being a prick, it's about having double standards. You weren't such a forum warrior when reaping the extra AP/CP due to your teammates' exploiting, but now that you are negatively affected by the AoE cap you are suddenly very vocal. No matter how completely right you are about the current AoE cap situtation, it does come across as rather silly when all of a sudden 'fairness' is something you say you care about. The same goes for a lot of people who are very vocal about the the AoE cap situation.

Cinbri

Jhunn wrote: »

@Wrobel this is what happens when you open an AOE caps discussion thread and go silent for 4 days. People go crazy

Why this discussion even needs. There is no logic to save aoe caps if zos really want people to split on map like they claim.

Xsorus

Zerg balling isn't exploiting; not do I blame zergs for doing it (you just won't get any props from me) and you can do both and still want the caps gone. You are just playing to what are currently *** game play mechanics. For example the twin sister set; I ran it for months.. Then they bugged it so it constantly procced.. I wasn't about to stop using it just because.

PainfulFAFA

Thread derailed by a scrub who contributes nothing on the matter and decides to go personal on somebody else over something completely trivial... lmfao

Derra

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

All I'm saying is that the argument about fairness doesn't add up for a lot of the people here, since if it doesn't negatively affect them, they have no trouble (ab)using it in their favor.

Since i don´t abuse anything willingly myself and don´t condone the abuse of bugs there is no argument to be had. I´ve been affected by the abuse of these bugs just as anyone else (positively because players i played with used them and negatively because enemies abused them). Priority is and always will be with the persons i enjoy spending my freetime with.

I try to not judge anyone by my own personal moral standards because i´m trying my best not a self-righteous pr*ck most of the time (this does not keep me from arguing about it but ultimately i can only communicate my pov of things and people have to make their own concious decisions).

It's not about being a prick, it's about having double standards. You weren't such a forum warrior when reaping the extra AP/CP due to your teammates' exploiting, but now that you are negatively affected by the AoE cap you are suddenly very vocal. No matter how completely right you are about the current AoE cap situtation, it does come across as rather silly when all of a sudden 'fairness' is something you say you care about. The same goes for a lot of people who are very vocal about the the AoE cap situation.

I gave the same feedback and had the same stance on bugabusing back then as i have now. I dare you to find something to prove your point of me having double standards not already touched in this topic (which is i choose friendship over holding everyone accountable to my own moral code. I mocked them for bugabusing and told them i don´t think of it as fair play. I still value their company over my own personal belief in a topic they have to make their own decision on - you don´t see me telling anyone they´re full of s*** because he/she wants to play with 20 of this friends).
On top of that you could add that back then we did not have an official zos feedback topic and everyone was effected equally by those things you point out (which is not the case in this topic).

Funny enough the person you share the most character traits in terms of behavior with is @Fluffy_Fr0zR . You´re two sides of the same coin. You hold everyone up to your own personal morals and interpretations of fairness while he does the same in terms of skill and performance.
Both of you lack respect for anyone who does not share the exact same ideas or is not equally skilled and your behaviour towards anyone not matching your personal criteria is abysmally poor.

Jar_Ek

Make all aoe do damage based on range from impact point.
So for example steel tornado does full damage if you are on top of your foe.

No aoe caps for number of targets.

Some abilities that are ground fields are fixed damage across the board - ie caltrops.

babanovac

Thread has derailed so much.

AoE caps need to go because they are unfair. There is absolutely no reason for them to exist. No one in this thread has yet given a single reason to support AoE caps.

Draxys

Derailment was bound to happen with such a hot topic and the pvp community being starved of developer attention (don't mean that in a derogatory sense, by the way).

Considering that the vast majority of people who have contributed to the discussion want the aoe caps removed, I think a sensible thing to do would be remove them on the pts and have a player/dev night scheduled (and well advertised) and see what happens.

usmcjdking

-Everyone here understands PVP is rubbish.
-Vast majority of people here hate ball groups.
-Everyone here hates unplayable Cyro lag.
-Everyone here wants an enjoyable experience.
-The damage done to PVP over the last year or so isn't unrecoverable, but it is catastrophic.

I don't particularly give a *** what @Wrobel decides to do with AOE caps as long as the above is addressed in it's entirety.

Jar_Ek

Addendum: Group barriers and shields should have aoe caps, as should healing. However the effects should be applied based solely on range from impact point. This (in theory) would make multiple coordinated small groups better than single large groups when combined with aoe damage being uncapped and based on range from impact point.

jrkhan

usmcjdking wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense

I'm not sure you realize how soft caps give the train the advantage - while not really helping out the unorganized defense at all.
The unorganized defense is usually, somewhat spread out.
They very rarely will have more than 6 people hit by the same AOE as it stands.

Explain to me how soft caps will further enable the pain trains?

Sorry - I think there was miscommunication.
The current 'soft AOE cap' was what I was referring to.
Soft caps on stats, are another matter

Stikato

usmcjdking wrote: »

-Everyone here understands PVP is rubbish.
-Vast majority of people here hate ball groups.
-Everyone here hates unplayable Cyro lag.
-Everyone here wants an enjoyable experience.
-The damage done to PVP over the last year or so isn't unrecoverable, but it is catastrophic.

I don't particularly give a *** what @Wrobel decides to do with AOE caps as long as the above is addressed in it's entirety.

And this is why the pvp podcast was not, as you put it, a waste of time.

Jhunn

@Wrobel thoughts...... pretty please?

turgon1987

Remove the AoE caps it is one of the best ideas, since you introduced that the lag in Cyrodiil is awful, of course there more things to be sorted about lag but that is one of them.

Reintroducing the camps (I know some of you will kill me for saying this) will be another good idea. I do think with camps we had much less lag. We had groups fighting everywhere in the map but since you removed them is a zerg vs zerg vs zerg and the lag is horrible. You can see the same fights over and over again in the same spots because no one wants to ride 10 min to reach another spot but the pvp guilds.

Galalin

So what happens when Mr.postonceandleave doesn't listen to a player base screaming for the removal of AoE caps?

Before you go off on me for suggesting such a rediculous thing.... think back to when the AoE caps were brought in and the feedback was overwhelmingly against it.

This very easily could happen

DK SCRUB OUT

Oh and mr.postonceandleave can you please fix this garbage you call a magicka DK

KK THX

nlantoncub18_ESO

This may have been covered earlier. If so forgive me as I have not had the leisure to read all the pages herein.

I think there is a middle ground in this discussion. I believe there is actually a distinction that should be made between two different types of AOE. Allow me to elaborate.

Type 1: ground target
This type of AOE is exactly what it's name suggests. It is your liquid lighting, you arrow barrage, your healing springs, and your siege. This form of AOE targets ground and achieves mass murder (or healing) by form of DOT for the most part. Large groups either forced into staying in one area (or staying in one area by in-attention) should suffer lethal consequences. Since placing this form of AOE requires skill to place and can be avoided by simply spreading out, it should not suffer an AOE cap. Note for these AOE's to be effective some abilities (looking at you wall of elements) may need a buff and or re-balancing.

Type 2: Caster Centered (Burst AOE)
This category of abilities inflict healing or damage in an instant and are centered on the caster. This includes Steel Tornado, Impulse, Barrier, Purify, and even things like Soul Tether. These abilities are easier to direct, and if properly used by the cream of the crop can inflict horrible devastation on even organized groups. Further up front healing and damage are always preferable to DOT or HOT. Thus these abilities should be hindered by an AOE cap due to other advantages.

This balance method allows abilities, like Caltrops and others, that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way to function in an area denial or dispersion capacity. However if abilities like Purge, Barrier, and Steel Tornado do suffer AOE caps it stops bomb groups from eliminating all contest by min-maxing solely with this abilities in mind.

Thoughts?

Joy_Division

nlantoncub18_ESO wrote: »

This may have been covered earlier. If so forgive me as I have not had the leisure to read all the pages herein.

I think there is a middle ground in this discussion. I believe there is actually a distinction that should be made between two different types of AOE. Allow me to elaborate.

Type 1: ground target
This type of AOE is exactly what it's name suggests. It is your liquid lighting, you arrow barrage, your healing springs, and your siege. This form of AOE targets ground and achieves mass murder (or healing) by form of DOT for the most part. Large groups either forced into staying in one area (or staying in one area by in-attention) should suffer lethal consequences. Since placing this form of AOE requires skill to place and can be avoided by simply spreading out, it should not suffer an AOE cap. Note for these AOE's to be effective some abilities (looking at you wall of elements) may need a buff and or re-balancing.

Type 2: Caster Centered (Burst AOE)
This category of abilities inflict healing or damage in an instant and are centered on the caster. This includes Steel Tornado, Impulse, Barrier, Purify, and even things like Soul Tether. These abilities are easier to direct, and if properly used by the cream of the crop can inflict horrible devastation on even organized groups. Further up front healing and damage are always preferable to DOT or HOT. Thus these abilities should be hindered by an AOE cap due to other advantages.

This balance method allows abilities, like Caltrops and others, that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way to function in an area denial or dispersion capacity. However if abilities like Purge, Barrier, and Steel Tornado do suffer AOE caps it stops bomb groups from eliminating all contest by min-maxing solely with this abilities in mind.

Thoughts?

I think you generally want that is bet for everyone but just don't understand the problems that AOE caps bring.

5 people Vs 20: Do you realize the 5 people are taking maximum damage from everything but 14 of the other group - roughly two-thirds - receive significant damage mitigation?

If my AoE hit 20 people, with the current AoE cap damage progression, the server must make many more additional calculations to determine what happens, which mean more lag.

ToRelax

nlantoncub18_ESO wrote: »

This may have been covered earlier. If so forgive me as I have not had the leisure to read all the pages herein.

I think there is a middle ground in this discussion. I believe there is actually a distinction that should be made between two different types of AOE. Allow me to elaborate.

Type 1: ground target
This type of AOE is exactly what it's name suggests. It is your liquid lighting, you arrow barrage, your healing springs, and your siege. This form of AOE targets ground and achieves mass murder (or healing) by form of DOT for the most part. Large groups either forced into staying in one area (or staying in one area by in-attention) should suffer lethal consequences. Since placing this form of AOE requires skill to place and can be avoided by simply spreading out, it should not suffer an AOE cap. Note for these AOE's to be effective some abilities (looking at you wall of elements) may need a buff and or re-balancing.

Type 2: Caster Centered (Burst AOE)
This category of abilities inflict healing or damage in an instant and are centered on the caster. This includes Steel Tornado, Impulse, Barrier, Purify, and even things like Soul Tether. These abilities are easier to direct, and if properly used by the cream of the crop can inflict horrible devastation on even organized groups. Further up front healing and damage are always preferable to DOT or HOT. Thus these abilities should be hindered by an AOE cap due to other advantages.

This balance method allows abilities, like Caltrops and others, that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way to function in an area denial or dispersion capacity. However if abilities like Purge, Barrier, and Steel Tornado do suffer AOE caps it stops bomb groups from eliminating all contest by min-maxing solely with this abilities in mind.

Thoughts?

GTAoE and PBAoE have to be balanced individually, this has absolutely nothing to do with the need to remove AoE caps. I mean that would mean large groups use PBAoE (as they do now) while smaller groups can hit more people with GTAoE and still don't kill anyone - because if enemies would melt in them, they wouldn't be balanced to the still capped PBAoE.