AoE Caps Discussion

turgon1987

Remove the AoE caps it is one of the best ideas, since you introduced that the lag in Cyrodiil is awful, of course there more things to be sorted about lag but that is one of them.

Reintroducing the camps (I know some of you will kill me for saying this) will be another good idea. I do think with camps we had much less lag. We had groups fighting everywhere in the map but since you removed them is a zerg vs zerg vs zerg and the lag is horrible. You can see the same fights over and over again in the same spots because no one wants to ride 10 min to reach another spot but the pvp guilds.

Galalin

So what happens when Mr.postonceandleave doesn't listen to a player base screaming for the removal of AoE caps?

Before you go off on me for suggesting such a rediculous thing.... think back to when the AoE caps were brought in and the feedback was overwhelmingly against it.

This very easily could happen

DK SCRUB OUT

Oh and mr.postonceandleave can you please fix this garbage you call a magicka DK

KK THX

nlantoncub18_ESO

This may have been covered earlier. If so forgive me as I have not had the leisure to read all the pages herein.

I think there is a middle ground in this discussion. I believe there is actually a distinction that should be made between two different types of AOE. Allow me to elaborate.

Type 1: ground target
This type of AOE is exactly what it's name suggests. It is your liquid lighting, you arrow barrage, your healing springs, and your siege. This form of AOE targets ground and achieves mass murder (or healing) by form of DOT for the most part. Large groups either forced into staying in one area (or staying in one area by in-attention) should suffer lethal consequences. Since placing this form of AOE requires skill to place and can be avoided by simply spreading out, it should not suffer an AOE cap. Note for these AOE's to be effective some abilities (looking at you wall of elements) may need a buff and or re-balancing.

Type 2: Caster Centered (Burst AOE)
This category of abilities inflict healing or damage in an instant and are centered on the caster. This includes Steel Tornado, Impulse, Barrier, Purify, and even things like Soul Tether. These abilities are easier to direct, and if properly used by the cream of the crop can inflict horrible devastation on even organized groups. Further up front healing and damage are always preferable to DOT or HOT. Thus these abilities should be hindered by an AOE cap due to other advantages.

This balance method allows abilities, like Caltrops and others, that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way to function in an area denial or dispersion capacity. However if abilities like Purge, Barrier, and Steel Tornado do suffer AOE caps it stops bomb groups from eliminating all contest by min-maxing solely with this abilities in mind.

Thoughts?

Joy_Division

nlantoncub18_ESO wrote: »

This may have been covered earlier. If so forgive me as I have not had the leisure to read all the pages herein.

I think there is a middle ground in this discussion. I believe there is actually a distinction that should be made between two different types of AOE. Allow me to elaborate.

Type 1: ground target
This type of AOE is exactly what it's name suggests. It is your liquid lighting, you arrow barrage, your healing springs, and your siege. This form of AOE targets ground and achieves mass murder (or healing) by form of DOT for the most part. Large groups either forced into staying in one area (or staying in one area by in-attention) should suffer lethal consequences. Since placing this form of AOE requires skill to place and can be avoided by simply spreading out, it should not suffer an AOE cap. Note for these AOE's to be effective some abilities (looking at you wall of elements) may need a buff and or re-balancing.

Type 2: Caster Centered (Burst AOE)
This category of abilities inflict healing or damage in an instant and are centered on the caster. This includes Steel Tornado, Impulse, Barrier, Purify, and even things like Soul Tether. These abilities are easier to direct, and if properly used by the cream of the crop can inflict horrible devastation on even organized groups. Further up front healing and damage are always preferable to DOT or HOT. Thus these abilities should be hindered by an AOE cap due to other advantages.

This balance method allows abilities, like Caltrops and others, that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way to function in an area denial or dispersion capacity. However if abilities like Purge, Barrier, and Steel Tornado do suffer AOE caps it stops bomb groups from eliminating all contest by min-maxing solely with this abilities in mind.

Thoughts?

I think you generally want that is bet for everyone but just don't understand the problems that AOE caps bring.

5 people Vs 20: Do you realize the 5 people are taking maximum damage from everything but 14 of the other group - roughly two-thirds - receive significant damage mitigation?

If my AoE hit 20 people, with the current AoE cap damage progression, the server must make many more additional calculations to determine what happens, which mean more lag.

ToRelax

nlantoncub18_ESO wrote: »

This may have been covered earlier. If so forgive me as I have not had the leisure to read all the pages herein.

I think there is a middle ground in this discussion. I believe there is actually a distinction that should be made between two different types of AOE. Allow me to elaborate.

Type 1: ground target
This type of AOE is exactly what it's name suggests. It is your liquid lighting, you arrow barrage, your healing springs, and your siege. This form of AOE targets ground and achieves mass murder (or healing) by form of DOT for the most part. Large groups either forced into staying in one area (or staying in one area by in-attention) should suffer lethal consequences. Since placing this form of AOE requires skill to place and can be avoided by simply spreading out, it should not suffer an AOE cap. Note for these AOE's to be effective some abilities (looking at you wall of elements) may need a buff and or re-balancing.

Type 2: Caster Centered (Burst AOE)
This category of abilities inflict healing or damage in an instant and are centered on the caster. This includes Steel Tornado, Impulse, Barrier, Purify, and even things like Soul Tether. These abilities are easier to direct, and if properly used by the cream of the crop can inflict horrible devastation on even organized groups. Further up front healing and damage are always preferable to DOT or HOT. Thus these abilities should be hindered by an AOE cap due to other advantages.

This balance method allows abilities, like Caltrops and others, that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way to function in an area denial or dispersion capacity. However if abilities like Purge, Barrier, and Steel Tornado do suffer AOE caps it stops bomb groups from eliminating all contest by min-maxing solely with this abilities in mind.

Thoughts?

GTAoE and PBAoE have to be balanced individually, this has absolutely nothing to do with the need to remove AoE caps. I mean that would mean large groups use PBAoE (as they do now) while smaller groups can hit more people with GTAoE and still don't kill anyone - because if enemies would melt in them, they wouldn't be balanced to the still capped PBAoE.

Xsorus

Some caps have to be present; heals for example need caps.. Same with barrier.. Even daoc capped most of its heals to group only (8 people) so that should tell you hrals should be capped somewhat.

Aoe damage though shouldn't be capped and it should result in extreme death if you are foolish enough to stack agains aoes

Maulkin

This whole thread is facepalm. I genuinely see no reason to discuss the concept of AoE caps which is why I haven't bothered posting so far.

AoE caps have failed by experiment. They should not be considered a subject for discussion in 2015 any more than the question of the earth being flat or round. Empirical evidence makes both questions outdated.

When the caps were first announced back in April 2014, Atropos of TamrielFoundry wrote a very on-point article (clicky this) analyzing why it was such a bad idea.

Every point he made sounded right and every point was proven correct in time. Yet here we are 19 months later still debating the same points with 0 indication from the developers as to why they even think AoE caps are a good idea or necessary.

Pointless thread is pointless.

CtrlAltDlt

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

This whole thread is facepalm. I genuinely see no reason to discuss the concept of AoE caps which is why I haven't bothered posting so far.

AoE caps have failed by experiment. They should not be considered a subject for discussion in 2015 any more than the question of the earth being flat or round. Empirical evidence makes both questions outdated.

When the caps were first announced back in April 2014, Atropos of TamrielFoundry wrote a very on-point article (clicky this) analyzing why it was such a bad idea.

Every point he made sounded right and every point was proven correct in time. Yet here we are 19 months later still debating the same points with 0 indication from the developers as to why they even think AoE caps are a good idea or necessary.

Pointless thread is pointless.

This.

RoamingRiverElk

I truly hope this thread was posted as a "let's just make sure by asking them once more that it's ok to go on and remove AOE caps completely". The community has, after all, been asking the devs to communicate more with us, including *before* changes are made.

Reducing the number of targets Purge and Barrier affect is great. Just make sure the one who activates the skill receives the effect. By doing this instead of increasing the cost means that small groups and solo players are still able to purge when they need to. Now, just add the same target number cap to maneuver.

Darnathian

Omg. People stop falling for this. There was already a thread that show why aOE cap should be removed. It also showed the majority did not want it.

This is clearly just another attempt at stalling to keep players here as long as possible. This was suppose to be a thread where he explained why they put them in. Not us saying the same stuff over and over. DONT BE FOOLED.

I see this in the navy on aircraft carriers. Sailors get in line and have no idea what the line is for. Just blindly following.

WE AREA THE cUSTOMERS. WE DID NOT WANT THE AOE CAP.

So you tell us why you did it

Jhunn

[snip] Since @Wrobel went silent I'm not really expecting anything anymore. Talk about false hope

[edited for bashing]

Derra

Jhunn wrote: »

[snip] Since @Wrobel went silent I'm not really expecting anything anymore. Talk about false hope

Yep - at this point i´m merely waiting for someone to tell us wrobel knows best and aoe caps are going to stay. That will be the day i instantly deinstall the game and put their website on my blocklist so i don´t ever consider going back.

[edited to remove quote]

Jhunn

Derra wrote: »

Yep - at this point i´m merely waiting for someone to tell us wrobel knows best and aoe caps are going to stay. That will be the day i instantly deinstall the game and put their website on my blocklist so i don´t ever consider going back.

And I think most PVP people will do the same, me included. Plus all the casuals who this game is being catered to will leave when the next TES game comes out. RIP

Darnathian

Stop responding to this thread until he explains why they put them in. His post was no explanation If it was then they have no clue and it's time to move on.

Not one response. They are stalling.

Call them out on it.

Ishammael

Derra wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

[snip] Since @Wrobel went silent I'm not really expecting anything anymore. Talk about false hope

Yep - at this point i´m merely waiting for someone to tell us wrobel knows best and aoe caps are going to stay. That will be the day i instantly deinstall the game and put their website on my blocklist so i don´t ever consider going back.

I've even figured out how to spell DELETE for my characters!

[edited to remove quote]

VincentBlanquin

well maybe at first casuals are pleased they are "protected"

at second they just die to boredom like the others

so how would that be mr. wrobel?

Enodoc

turgon1987 wrote: »

Remove the AoE caps it is one of the best ideas, since you introduced that the lag in Cyrodiil is awful, of course there more things to be sorted about lag but that is one of them.

Reintroducing the camps (I know some of you will kill me for saying this) will be another good idea. I do think with camps we had much less lag. We had groups fighting everywhere in the map but since you removed them is a zerg vs zerg vs zerg and the lag is horrible. You can see the same fights over and over again in the same spots because no one wants to ride 10 min to reach another spot but the pvp guilds.

@turgon1987 When Forward Camps are reintroduced, blood-porting like before will not be possible.

FENGRUSH

Wrobel wrote: »

Last week, we had a really successful discussion on player abilities. It was super constructive

Id like to challenge what a successful discussion is at this point!

Jhunn

6th day and @Wrobel is still permacloaking.

Nerf cloak

Kwivur

Yeah, I've been checking in for a response and still no dice. Maybe he's bugged?

Ara_Valleria

Jhunn wrote: »

6th day and @Wrobel is still permacloaking.

Nerf cloak

Confirmed.
@Wrobel is a NB irl.

DeeBunny

Forgive me if I'm a tad off-topic here, but 2.2.7 dropped today, and looking through the conversation from two weeks ago "Greeting's ESO Forum Posters", regarding class skills, where did you @Wrobel get the impression that Templar class skills are causing too much damage and need to be adjusted downward?

Themes that I read included:

• Don't nerf skills
• Adjust Templar and DK class skills to cause more damage

Why post these forums and have discussions if you're taking action that violates the spirit of the discussions?

From today's patch notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Here you go, guys: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233498/pc-mac-patch-notes-v2-2-7
Combat & Gameplay
General

• Fixed several minor issues for the following abilities, based on the adjustments made in patch v2.2.5:
  • Blazing Spear: Decreased the damage values, which were previously higher than intended.

Enodoc

DeeBunny wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Here you go, guys: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233498/pc-mac-patch-notes-v2-2-7
Combat & Gameplay
General

• Fixed several minor issues for the following abilities, based on the adjustments made in patch v2.2.5:
  • Blazing Spear: Decreased the damage values, which were previously higher than intended.

OK ZOS, maybe it wasn't "intended". But maybe it should become the intent if it results in better balance.

jrkhan

@prootch
It's reasonable to assume that currently we have many cases where

damageDealt = .5f * startingDamage;

And if aoe caps changed we'd have

damageDealt = startingDamage;

If you've ever worried about performance you'd know two things about this change:
1) It will be marginally faster... and
2) It's so small it will make no direct impact on performance

However, there's no reason to bash people for making perfectly logical assumptions like:
Multiplying by a float is slower than not multiplying by a float.

---

The real (performance related) question is, how does it impact player behavior -
Will it encourage players to spread out?
We have at best, anecdotal evidence that suggests blob groups cause more lag then spread out groups.
By eliminating aoe caps, you are removing 1 reason to stack up.

You seem to think that by removing one of the reasons to stack, it will cause people to stack more?
This is counter intuitive.
You are the one calling out other people for making convoluted assumptions yes?

Ara_Valleria

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Could you guys kindly check on @Wrobel ... think he fell asleep on his desk.

His forum account might get deactivated if he sleeps for a year again.

Efficient

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hello? Your customers are asking for something. Should we wait another week?

Xeven

Eric in this thread:

Manoekin

DeeBunny wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm a tad off-topic here, but 2.2.7 dropped today, and looking through the conversation from two weeks ago "Greeting's ESO Forum Posters", regarding class skills, where did you @Wrobel get the impression that Templar class skills are causing too much damage and need to be adjusted downward?

Themes that I read included:

• Don't nerf skills
• Adjust Templar and DK class skills to cause more damage

Why post these forums and have discussions if you're taking action that violates the spirit of the discussions?

From today's patch notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Here you go, guys: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233498/pc-mac-patch-notes-v2-2-7
Combat & Gameplay
General

• Fixed several minor issues for the following abilities, based on the adjustments made in patch v2.2.5:
  • Blazing Spear: Decreased the damage values, which were previously higher than intended.

Yeah I don't get it either. Blazing Spear already did next to no damage. Why in the world would make it deal even less?

PainfulFAFA

Manoekin wrote: »

DeeBunny wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm a tad off-topic here, but 2.2.7 dropped today, and looking through the conversation from two weeks ago "Greeting's ESO Forum Posters", regarding class skills, where did you @Wrobel get the impression that Templar class skills are causing too much damage and need to be adjusted downward?

Themes that I read included:

• Don't nerf skills
• Adjust Templar and DK class skills to cause more damage

Why post these forums and have discussions if you're taking action that violates the spirit of the discussions?

From today's patch notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Here you go, guys: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233498/pc-mac-patch-notes-v2-2-7
Combat & Gameplay
General

• Fixed several minor issues for the following abilities, based on the adjustments made in patch v2.2.5:
  • Blazing Spear: Decreased the damage values, which were previously higher than intended.

Yeah I don't get it either. Blazing Spear already did next to no damage. Why in the world would make it deal even less?

And yet Steel Tornado is left untouched with its ridiculous range and execute capabilities...
Seriously I never even noticed Blazing Spear had unintended values... thats how weak it is

hammayolettuce

Blazing spear is still used?