AoE Caps Discussion

ZOS_Wrobel

Last week, we had a really successful discussion on player abilities. It was super constructive and we got a ton of really great feedback. This week, we’d like to have that same constructive discussion with AoE caps and falloff. AoE caps are something that have been talked about on the forums for a while now and discussion has picked up recently, especially with regards to PvP. We’d like to discuss them in a bit more detail and provide some design goals for the system, as well as the overall vision for larger scale PvP in ESO.

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

With that being said, there are a few situations where healing is able to out scale damage. The first step we are taking is to look at some of the abilities that heal far more than we would like in large group fights. We’re specifically looking at Purge and Barrier initially, and will be reducing the max targets these abilities can hit. While we are looking at specific abilities, we are also looking into Magicka Detonation. This ability was always intended to be more effective versus groups and less effective against individual targets, and it is not meeting those design goals currently.

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

For feedback this week, we’d love to hear about situations in which you feel like you are having problems against large groups of players. Include the number of players you’re fighting against, abilities you believe they are using, and abilities you feel need tweaks to make them more effective against larger numbers.

Kwivur

@FENGRUSH..... It's your time to shine. lol

Docmandu

If those 20 stand on the same pixel, they SHOULD die to the 5 that rush in and AOE bomb them!!! Worked perfectly fine in daoc, where zergs knew they had to spread out on inc.

themdogesbite

I guess you never saw PvP pre 1.6 Wrobel. 5 man groups could put up very strong fights against 20 people.. IF you will change healing you need to chnage it in a way that isnt punishing smaller sized groups. Keep heal cap on 6 but completely REMOVE the damage cap, that solves all problems. Numbers shouldnt matter, Skill howeever, should.

The reason healing can outscale damage is AOE caps and turteling.......

Kwivur

AoE should definitely do more damage to ALL players. Remove the cap and make these Zergs spread apart. Let detonation do it's job. Barrier and Purge are fine, just remove the caps.

Derra

@FENGRUSH plz. I don´t have the stamina to explain why AOE caps don´t make sense anymore and why with aoe caps smart healing is always going to outpace dmg.

On topic:

AOE would not be end all be all IF people would spread out. The theoretical purpose of aoe abilities (almost all of them currently in the game - detonation being a special case) is to spread people out due to the risk of blowing up to heavy aoe dmg (this is not the case because caps are in the game) - aoe dmg SHOULD outpace healing (in my opinion anyway).
If people were spread out AOE would not be favorable to use in the first place - so singletarget would actually be better of than it currently is with caps entirely removed.

tinythinker

There have been so many debates about this. Some want dynamic ultimate back with no AoE caps to fight zergs, others say that will make things worse.

I honestly have no idea what would actually work with real people on the live server, because all mechanics have a way to be leveraged in ways a designer didn't foresee.

That said, for Proxy Det, I vote for having it tickle against one or two targets, so even if a large bomb groups spams it against a few people it doesn't do much. If it then scales up rapidly after 3-4 targets, it has a chance to serve its original purpose.

Limiting the number of people covered by Barrier and Purge just means more people in a bomb group will have it slotted and spam it. A cooldown on how often a particular player can benefit from it (either be immune or have it operate at reduced effectiveness) would do more to reduce the spamming of it and the ability of bomb groups to Barrier-->Proxy Det-->Purge their way through everything.

It might also be worth, as a longer term goal, looking at adding another Alliance War skill tree to help balance things out, but that would rapidly drift off topic.

Nafirian

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

I guess you never saw PvP pre 1.6 Wrobel. 5 man groups could put up very strong fights against 20 people.. IF you will change healing you need to chnage it in a way that isnt punishing smaller sized groups. Keep heal cap on 6 but completely REMOVE the damage cap, that solves all problems. Numbers shouldnt matter, Skill howeever, should.

The reason healing can outscale damage is AOE caps and turteling.......

Bashev

Wrobel wrote: »

With that being said, there are a few situations where healing is able to out scale damage. The first step we are taking is to look at some of the abilities that heal far more than we would like in large group fights. We’re specifically looking at Purge and Barrier initially, and will be reducing the max targets these abilities can hit. While we are looking at specific abilities, we are also looking into Magicka Detonation. This ability was always intended to be more effective versus groups and less effective against individual targets, and it is not meeting those design goals currently.

You should also reduce the target for maneuver too.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO

Just remove AoE damage caps, leave the rest alone. You can always change it later in a hotfix if there are problems. Ballista will be the new meta if you cap purge -..-, the idea should be that players determine who they kill or heal and how they die, placing caps removes the player from the situation.

Morostyle

Remove Damage AOE cap - fix meteor - ty ty

Waffennacht

From what I understand it is not the fact that 5 players are facing 20, it's how the 20 ball up making a single target impossible and ontop of that reducing the amount of AoE damage.

In fact a 20 person vs 5 would maintain the 20 man advantage even with an AoE increased damage per player in area.

It would just force them to seperate allowing for single target, it's not like an AoE covers the whole freaking keep.

Also, historically speaking, a well defended position SHOULD be able to have 5 vs 20.

Remember WW2? The allies were looking at a 10 to 1 loss attacking the defended beeches! Yes a well positioned defense should have a mad ratio like that!

vortexman11

One of the major issues right now I see in large scale PvP is the loss of some key Area of Denial skills. Negate was nerfed, DragonKnight Standard got its cost increased, Wall Of Elements is a joke, Caltrops no longer drains stamina from those blocking in it. Back in 1.5 the consequence of large groups ignoring when an enemy casted skills like these on them was, if the skills were used correctly, a full group wipe. These skills played a key roll in spreading people out, while at the same time they weren't instant high damage abilities like Magicka Detonation is apparently supposed to be (which I don't agree with).

These were highly effective, but easily avoidable, which is why I don't see a reason certain features of these skills were changed or removed.

Also on the topic of large group DPS...Steel Tornado...now I'm not calling for a nerf to it, but I'd just like to point out that it does nearly as much damage as a proximity detonation when you're near low health... I know alot of people would love to see impulse buffed to be closer to its level in range and damage and stuff, but I also disagree with that because thats closer to just re skinning a skill and putting it on a different weapon line, I'm sure no one wants that. But to have balance while having Weapon/Class skill uniqueness I would lean more towards a buff to Wall of Elements, not so it does insane damage, but so it's at least noticeable to those standing in it, caltrops regularly ticks for 1k-1.5k in PvP per second, while Wall of Elements generally ticks for 300-350 every half a second, I think it would be fair to increase the damage on Wall of Elements by 30% or so

I'm sure @Ghostbane has alot more to say about Wall of Elements than I do.

Oh...sorry for getting off topic, I know this is about AoE caps, but I just took it as a time to discuss AoEs in general, but if you read up to here then I don't think you really care that I got off topic.

Enodoc

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.

Derra

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

I guess you never saw PvP pre 1.6 Wrobel. 5 man groups could put up very strong fights against 20 people.. IF you will change healing you need to chnage it in a way that isnt punishing smaller sized groups. Keep heal cap on 6 but completely REMOVE the damage cap, that solves all problems. Numbers shouldnt matter, Skill howeever, should.

The reason healing can outscale damage is AOE caps and turteling.......

Pre 1.6 we had hardcapped aoes at 6 targets. The reason why ppl could put up a better fight back then compared to now was dynamic ultimate gain. Which is a whole different topic.

Derra

Bashev wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

With that being said, there are a few situations where healing is able to out scale damage. The first step we are taking is to look at some of the abilities that heal far more than we would like in large group fights. We’re specifically looking at Purge and Barrier initially, and will be reducing the max targets these abilities can hit. While we are looking at specific abilities, we are also looking into Magicka Detonation. This ability was always intended to be more effective versus groups and less effective against individual targets, and it is not meeting those design goals currently.

You should also reduce the target for maneuver too.

Maneuver should just break on casted heals too (not hot ticks) - that would solve all of it´s issues.

tinythinker

Enodoc wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.

Shhhhhhh... if they do that and fix the Proxy Det scaling along the same lines what would happen to the big beautiful groups of 30-70?

AshTal

The issue I have is that AOE attacks are a preferred attack than a single target attack. A lot of battles people just spam steal tornado and runs in a mass group. They have other people spamming healing and speed buffs they can catch anyone and death is almost instant when they get into range,

AOE's should not be considered an attack of choice against a single appointment but right now Steele tornado seems to out damage a lot of single target attacks.

Something needs to be done about zergs spamming Steel Tornado and batswarm,

StoneSlayer

First off, How did AOE caps even end up in ESO? 3500 people voted against AOE caps and only 500 voted for AOE caps in the poll on the forums. This should already tell you that AOE caps should have been looked at then and definitely should be looked at now! If not completely removed, AOE caps should be tweaked so that a skilled 5 man group can drop (with proper AOE, and coordination) a 24 man unorganized Zerg within a matter of seconds. If they don't pay attention, they die. That's how they would learn how to play the game properly as well. Getting killed should make you look at what you're doing wrong, which you can then adapt to. Both in play style and build. On top of that a bit off-topic, but you need to deal with the lag and performance issues in Cyrodiil at the moment. Azura's star is almost constantly full (Eu), and unplayable for the most part because of the poor performance.

Derra

AshTal wrote: »

The issue I have is that AOE attacks are a preferred attack than a single target attack. A lot of battles people just spam steal tornado and runs in a mass group. They have other people spamming healing and speed buffs they can catch anyone and death is almost instant when they get into range,

AOE's should not be considered an attack of choice against a single appointment but right now Steele tornado seems to out damage a lot of single target attacks.

Something needs to be done about zergs spamming Steel Tornado and batswarm,

The reason they don´t use singletarget right now is they can all ball up and have literally no reason at all to use it.

When 12ppl steeltornado you - you should die. There is no arguing about that i think? The problem is they are able to stand on one spot and all hit you with their AOEs. Without caps standing in the same position would be dangerous and the behavior would change possibly.

Enodoc

tinythinker wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.

Shhhhhhh... if they do that and fix the Proxy Det scaling along the same lines what would happen to the big beautiful groups of 30-70?

Oh dear, they may become unsustainable, resulting in groups breaking up and an improvement in the lag situation! Alternatively, they may be forced to coordinate more, resulting in sieges looking as good as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P5egjUf1iA

rather than the stuttery blob of players that we see right now.

timidobserver

Wrobel wrote: »

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

In that case, why does the 20 player group need the added advantage of free damage reduction given that you are admitting that they have the advantage and will most likely defeat 5 players anyway? Currently in a 5 v 20, the 20 player group gets reduced damage just for standing next to each other on top of their natural numbers advantage.

tinythinker

Enodoc wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.

Shhhhhhh... if they do that and fix the Proxy Det scaling along the same lines what would happen to the big beautiful groups of 30-70?

Oh dear, they may become unsustainable, resulting in groups breaking up and an improvement in the lag situation! Alternatively, they may be forced to coordinate more, resulting in sieges looking as good as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P5egjUf1iA

rather than the stuttery blob of players that we see right now.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

usmcjdking

The problem with zerg balls isn't necessarily that they are undefeatable.

The problem with zerg balls is they show up with precharged 40 meteors, barriers and batswarms while having proxy det charged. You get lagged, then you die to the AOE while you are getting kicked to the login screen.

AoE caps on offensive abilities are NOT the problem. They are problematic on defensive skills.

Kwivur

usmcjdking wrote: »

The problem with zerg balls isn't necessarily that they are undefeatable.

The problem with zerg balls is they show up with precharged 40 meteors, barriers and batswarms while having proxy det charged. You get lagged, then you die to the AOE while you are getting kicked to the login screen.

AoE caps on offensive abilities are NOT the problem. They are problematic on defensive skills.

Ball group leader^^^

Minsc

Exactly as timidobserver and Derra have said . Because of the AoE damage caps and especially because of the smart healing even when the 5 lead the 20 at a tight space , the 20 have the additional advantage ( encouraging large groups to blob with the previously mentioned results to the server performance)

Waffennacht

Oh btw, steel tornado. The heck I say? Its an instant spammable AoE. Is there any magicka spammable AoE? Nope! Every other AoE has either a timer or you have to place it on a spot, steel tornado is just killer on both sides of the coin. Why wouldn't you use it as a stamina player?

FENGRUSH

It is finally here, and the opening post leads me to believe were talking about issues around large scale PvP instead of AOE caps - so Im going to jump right in on this.

Wrobel wrote: »

Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Ive heard this idea dropped in one of our We Are ESO podcasts by you before Wrobel and Id like to strike at it in more detail. If healing and damage mechanics were the same (picking random targets) this issue with AOE caps wouldnt be as bad as they are. But because of smart healing (which I dont expect you to remove or change due to it being core to your game since its inception) is what makes the damage get the short end of the stick.


If youre hitting 16 people, and 6 for full at a time, youre picking 6 different targets each time. If youre hitting 24, or 30 players, the statistical chance you hit the target that you wanted to hit, who you previously put the most damage on, keeps getting worse and worse. Ultimately, its extremely unlikely to hit the target you want and burst that guy down. Instead, you have to throw out overwhelming amounts of damage and actually out damage their healing by a large margin in a short span of time (something not possible when significantly outnumbered. This becomes impossible when you factor in templar ult for reduction but more importantly: barrier.

Now you mentioned barrier, which is great. This ability absolutely and completely counters a burst from realistically happening. It also is compounded by the fact that you cant even crit shields (an issue shared with small scale magicka sorcs - but to stay on course here) the amount of uncrittable damage 1 barrier provides a full group is absolutely ridiculous.

All in all, AOE caps creates a situation that encourages you to bring numbers SIMPLY BECAUSE THE MORE YOU HAVE, THE MORE CHANCE YOULL TAKE 50% DAMAGE. It creates quantity over quality. Quantity already provides you the advantage of having more tools and bodies at your disposal.

I really wont be satisfied with anything short of full removal of AOE caps - because if you just raise the bar up, you have the same issue at a larger scale and youre not fixing the problem, youre promoting a worse one. To have more people stack more people.


Whoever takes the most damage, will get all of the heals, because smart healing targets whoever is lowest. Damage is randomly picking targets. Because of this design - you need to remove AOE caps.

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful.

Single target abilities will still be useful - 100%. In fact, I cant even AOE groups if theyre too big, the only viable option is to use single target to hope to burst through specific people. AOE is good, but its only as good as the numbers you have AOEing and the difference between what youre AOEing against. Again, the meta now because of the 50% damage nerf this patch is all about numbers. 50% less damage, then 50% from AOE caps if youre not the unlucky 6.

With that said - you should be discouraging people from balling up all of the time. THERE IS NO THREAT, NO RISK, NO REASON NOT TO. Fixing det is a good first step, but you shouldnt put 1 skill in the game that is the end all be all of countering these ball groups. The game design IS NOT GOOD to encourage this style of play. THERE MUST BE RISK INVOLVED, OR EVERYONE WILL DO IT. This is what Cyrodiil has become, because that is what has been promoted by all of these changes.

When players are forced to split and scatter to avoid the damage or ults of another group trying to strike at them while theyre all grouped, THAT is when you would switch to single target. That is how you bring single target combat back into this equation. But a lot of these groups, they dont even use single target at all. Because you dont give them a reason to. They have gap closers, survivals, buffs/utility, and AOE. They will literally gap closer and use steel tornado because it may be there best skill to damage with. If you created a reason for people that they HAD TO SCATTER they would switch to their single target, and back to AOE when they have the ability to counter in the same fashion.

This style of PvP existed more before, it exists less today.

Wrobel wrote: »

The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it.

This plays into the first part but I want to come back to it again. A large group may take 500k damage, but a barrier will eat up most of that (this is post mitigation damage too, so its being spread pretty slowly) - and technically none of those people could have dropped below 10k hp despite receiving an equal amount of healing, because the smart healing is going to prioritize those who need it, while the damage is being spread all over the place. This system is so screwed up - Im not even sure how it can be tolerated as a thing for mass PvP.

It sends a clear message to me. You want the game to be more casual friendly and youre giving people a cushion so they dont have to play as well, or try as much. You dont want them to die easily and become discouraged. The reality is, youve lost just as much playerbase creating a ball group meta that has smothered your servers performance, its backfired in a gruesome way.

Additionally, this patch, more than any other, should allow players to take on AOE damage with the damage reduction, whereas in 1.6, it was easier to burst down with AOE. I get this game is for everyone, and I dont want to discourage people from playing it by making it too hard. But ultimately you have great players making great ball groups too that will crush these more casual players getting into larger groups if you actually did remove AOE caps just as well.

Removing AOE caps needs to be done because the game in its current state is 100% about quantity over quality. It has never before been as much about it as it is now, and if you dont take radical action to change this, you will lose what remains of players that want to create a great PvP environment. Theres a lot of alternatives around the corner - not to derail/threaten this offtopic, but its a reality. You need change quickly, and if you dont, a lot of the players who have stuck around through a lot of crap, are out once they find that magic we felt in earlier days of Cyro somewhere else.

Wrobel wrote: »

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

We use this on We are ESO podcasts, and its true - but I dont even know why you need to say this. Its like a reassurance to ball groups and zergs that you arent willing to make changes to bring things where they need to be. Which is GIVING EVERYONE A FAIR SHOT IN A FIGHT



Changes that should be made:

Immediate changes:

Step 1) Remove AOE caps [No discussion needed] (Wrobel Team)
Step 2) Change Barrier & Purge [Discussion needed: How do you do this? If you cast 1 barrier in a 24 man group and it hits 12, will a 2nd one hit the 12 who didnt get it? This will change things where groups simply run 2 barriers at a time. Will it randomly pick targets? This changes the design of it, and not necessarily in a bad way, but will alter how its functionally used by ball groups today. As far as purge is concerned, this will still be used to the effect it is today, even if you limited targets down to 4, they would assign 3-6 people that can purge. Consider how strong purge is and how it effects other things, like siege, otherwise changes here will be void.] (Wrobel Team)
Step 3) Make AP gains distributed equally across the board, no bonus for large groups. [No discussion needed] (Wheeler Team)
Step 4) Rework siege [Discussion needed - not testing] (Wheeler Team)


Post AOE caps:

Step 5) Evaluate Removal of AOE Caps; Discuss Dynamic Ult Gen [Discussion needed post AOE cap removal - NEW ult gen system, not like the old one, but not static] (Wrobel Team)

Going to stop there for now - because the list goes beyond mechanic changes at that point to design changes. The rest is design changes that can encourage people to be spread out, have other objectives and new things to do. Youve probably heard these ideas on the We Are ESO podcast if youve watched them. EI: City objectives and IC changes. These are mid/long term goals. The above is your short term IMMEDIATE goals that need to come in now.

Kwivur

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

No AoE cap would force people apart into smaller groups making them use their single target abilities.

manny254

Personally I think the solution is to remove AoE caps on damage based ultis. This would provide a way for small groups to break up larger ones with coordinated attacks, but not over empower all AoE.

Jhunn

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I don't think anything else needs to be said. Looking forward to hear @Wrobel response on this.