20151201 Darlgon Telvanni on AoE Caps and Siege

Darlgon

"Come one, come all, to a free lecture by Serjo Darlgon Telvanni, esteemed august <and Decemberist> member of the Mage's Guild and unpaid professional theorist in the arts of combat, races and mal'barmiag. Especially invited are our friends from ZoS, @ZoS_RichLambert, @Wrobel, @ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZoS_JessicaFolsum and @ZoS_GinaBruno."

An older Dunmer mage walks on stage and up to the podium...

"Good evening all. GOOD EVENING, ALL.

<Hrmpfh>

<Summons a gout of flame that rises high into the air until quiet reigns, except the city guards, who burst into the open ceiling auditorium...but are intercepted by some Argonian assistants with reasonably sized money purses.>

Good day again, friends, colleagues and small furry creatures from the plane of Cheesemonger's Hollow, Thank you for your attention.

This humble citizen was pulled from scholarly research of the dungeons of Nirn by friends who fight in both Cyrodiil and other areas, to discuss a concerning turn of events in the game. Its really quite interesting. The pathways and sometimes even entire sections of tunnels and rooms have reformed into new and sometimes scenic vistas inside of a number of public dungeons, for no discernible reason.

<Slightly away from the podium and in a lowered voice.> Walks-in-Mud, Why are you coughing like that?

Anyway, back to my notes. Apparently, a Daedra of unknown power has appeared in the forums. He takes on the guise of @Wrobel. According to information I cannot locate at the present time, in the forums, (maybe it was on an ESO Live?), he "recently" joined the forums. Yet, upon checking his profile, he has had a forum birthday on his account for 2 years. Interesting. To have the power to travel thru time is indeed impressive. Wonder how he did it......

<The Argonian Walks-in-Mud approaches and taps Darlgon Telvanni on the shoulder, then whispers to him.>

<partly away from podium>
What Walks-In-Mud? I told you to stop me if I wandered off topic? Yes,,, yes, I did.

To be noted, as we begin, printed copies of this discourse, and my other works will be available for purchase from my assistants,, err apprentices. Sales will promote future research and the new Mage's Guild Retirement Fund, headed by myself, of course.

The topic at hand is AoE caps. Now, this "Wrobel being" started a thread discussing AoE caps. Based on previous information, we will refer to him as Serjo Wrobel, even if his nobility may be questioned now. The thread is located on your handout, for reference. (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232730/aoe-caps-discussion/p1). Wanders-In-Mud will again provide a large version on this screen, should you not want to look away from the stage and read the small print. In that thread, we will take a few excepts for this discussion.

Wrobel wrote: »

This week, we’d like to have that same constructive discussion with AoE caps and falloff. AoE caps are something that have been talked about on the forums for a while now and discussion has picked up recently, especially with regards to PvP. We’d like to discuss them in a bit more detail and provide some design goals for the system, as well as the overall vision for larger scale PvP in ESO.

Understanding systems and goals is important to both players and game developers, so this discussion IS a good thing.

Darlgon

Initially, some may ask why not post this discussion in his thread. Well, according to Serjo Wrobel:

Wrobel wrote: »

For feedback this week, we’d love to hear about situations in which you feel like you are having problems against large groups of players. Include the number of players you’re fighting against, abilities you believe they are using, and abilities you feel need tweaks to make them more effective against larger numbers.

My humble apologies, should other so-called scholars disagree, but this discussion goes beyond the situations and problems of vs "large groups of players". Also, preparations for this took longer than the "week" mentioned.

A basic question must arise for this discussion to continue. For the uninformed or misinformed, AoE caps are processes put in place by the Aedra or Daedra of their specialty to prevent Areas of Magical Effect from spreading thru out the Mundus, eventually destroying it and spreading into the planes of Oblivion. Some cultures teach that Lorkhan, when he died, created such controls. Then, the beings who currently control them just tweak them to their needs/desires. Those claims cannot be substantiated at this time.

Some basic "rules" appear to be in play. For example, according to Serjo Wrobel:

Wrobel wrote: »

The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

That said, one must wonder if Sheogorath really is controlling them, for their application is.. inconsistent to say the least, but sometimes has the bluntness of Mehrunes Dagon. As an example quoting Serjo Wrobel:

Wrobel wrote: »

With that being said, there are a few situations where healing is able to out scale damage. The first step we are taking is to look at some of the abilities that heal far more than we would like in large group fights. We’re specifically looking at Purge and Barrier initially, and will be reducing the max targets these abilities can hit. While we are looking at specific abilities, we are also looking into Magicka Detonation. This ability was always intended to be more effective versus groups and less effective against individual targets, and it is not meeting those design goals currently.

So, individual skills sometimes over-ride that AoE cap. However, not addressed in the discussion is an EVEN BIGGER AOE cap, in place over the entirety of Cyrodiil. For that, we refer to the second reference on your handbill, the 2.1.4 Patch Notes.

ZoS_GinaBruno wrote:

The Battle Spirit buff has been adjusted and now has 50% more damage reduction, 50% less healing received, and 50% less damage shield strength.

Current reports are still coming in, but this so-called buff, that is really a healing and damage debuff, is still in place around all of both Cyrodiil AND inside the newly accessible Imperial City. Today, on Azura's Star NA, it read:

- Increase Health 5000
- Reduce damage taken 50%
- Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%
- Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m

We also need to look at the two different KINDS of AoEs, as highlighted by Serjo Wrobel. All the skills he mentioned as problems are CASTER CENTERED. SOME AoEs, say from Bows, Staves or Siege are TARGET or GROUND CENTERED.

Darlgon

More on that in a minute. Let us get some figures to work with.

From the perspective of one test subject, a VR16 DK, the following happens to his tool tips inside of and outside of the target area of Cyrodiil. Base attributes of Stamina Health Magicka. (More details on his build available at the end of the discussion, should you be curious.)

Some of you may find this part of the research tedious, so please see the apprentices for beverages or snacks for a small fee at this time.

In Craglorn:

Crushing Shock causes 2814 single target damage at 28m for the cost of 2072 Magicka
Elemental Blockade causes 3664 damage in an area in front of the caster, at the cost of 2507 Magicka
Pulsar causes 2022 damage to all targets in an area 6m around the caster, at the cost of 2486 Magicka

Brawler causes 2085 Phys damage, to all enemies in a 7m cone in front of the player, plus a 2540 bleed over 10s at the cost of 2002 Stamina
Wrecking Blow causes 6040 damage at the cost of 2002 Stamina
Scorched Earth causes, to all enemies who stand in its landing zone, 9104 damage, then another 1368 fire damage after the arrows stop, at the cost of 2169 Stamina
Lethal Arrow causes 5621 Poison damage, at the cost of 2002 Stamina

Healing Springs heals all in target area, up to 28 m away, for 2997 over 3 sec, at the cost of 2693 magicka.
Cleanse removes 2 negative effects, reduces the duration of any more neg threats 50%, on all players in a 12m area around the caster. Also, heals 18% of the cured's MAX health, if cured, after 6 sec, at the cost of 6216 magicka .
Replenishing Barrier places wards of 17437 on all allies within 12m of the caster, for 30 sec, for the cost of 250 Ultimate.

His Igneous Shields provide a damage shield of 2417 for all allies around him inside 12m, a shield of 4834 to him, for the cost of 3107 Magicka

In Cyrodiil, campaign, with the Battle Spirit buff, (plus an offensive Scroll bonus of 5% spell power):

Crushing Shock causes 2697 single target damage at 38m for the cost of 2072 Magicka
Elemental Blockade causes 3504 damage in 8s in an area in front of the caster, at the cost of 2507 Magicka
Pulsar causes 1937 damage to all targets in an area 6m around the caster, at the cost of 2486 Magicka

Brawler causes 2085 Phys damage, to all enemies in a 7m cone in front of the player, plus a 2540 bleed over 10s at the cost of 2002 Stamina
Wrecking Blow causes 6040 damage at the cost of 2002 Stamina
Scorched Earth causes, to all enemies who stand in its landing zone, 4552 damage, then another 1368 fire damage after the arrows stop, at the cost of 2169 Stamina
Lethal Arrow causes 5621 Poison damage, at the cost of 2002 Stamina

Healing Springs heals all in target area, up to 38 m away, for 3054 over 3 sec, at the cost of 2693 magicka.
Cleanse removes 2 negative effects, reduces the duration of any more neg threats 50%, on all players in a 12m area around the caster. Also, heals 18% of the cured's MAX health, if cured, after 6 sec, at the cost of 6216 magicka .
Replenishing Barrier places wards of 8719 on all allies within 12m of the caster, for 30 sec, for the cost of 250 Ultimate.

His Igneous Shields provide a damage shield of 1629 for all allies around him inside 12m, a shield of 3258 to him, for the cost of 3107 Magicka

(More information on other skills can be found at the link on the bottom, which lists both the DKs
base stats and the skills analysis more extensively. )

Sadly, Pact Siege has no description of what damage it is supposed to cause.

The test subject apologizes that, as he is a one of the rare hybrids in game, his numbers may be vastly smaller than most specialists in one field. He also may use the not most common morphs for the same reason.

Darlgon

Let us look at some of the healing skill mentioned, plus Magicka Detonation. Based on numbers and morphs from our test subject. Walks-in-Mud, the slide on Healing abilities, both outside and inside Cyrodiil, please:




Notice, first off that Inevitable Detonation receives NO damage debuff from Battle Spirit, being the same inside and outside Cyrodiil. Interesting. Likewise, the tool tip for Cleanse says it heals 18% of Max Health both inside and outside Cyrodiil. Maybe that is why it seems so OP to some? It is not being debuffed correctly now?

On the other hand, the ward from Replenishing Barrier seems to be almost half a tanks health in PVE, but less than 25% of what a tank type would need in Cyrodiil For 250 ULTIMATE, that seems to be a very small bang for the buck.

Healing Ward also is behaving.. interestingly. The healing is only slightly reduced, but the ward part is definitely a 50% drop.

Now, the funny part is.. well.. lets see that slide showing the current Battle Spirit...

- Increase Health 5000
- Reduce damage taken 50%
- Reduce healing received and damage shield strength by 50%
- Increase range of abilities with greater than 28m range by 8m

The debuff is on healing RECEIVED. Yet, the healing is being debuffed BEFORE casting... One wonders how that works on the other end.

Most concerning, NONE of the tool tips mention two things Serjo Wrobel mentioned:

Wrobel wrote: »

Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets.

Really? This information does not show up anywhere. Is this only in Cyrodiil, or across all of Tamriel?

Wrobel wrote: »

We’re specifically looking at Purge and Barrier initially, and will be reducing the max targets these abilities can hit. While we are looking at specific abilities, we are also looking into Magicka Detonation.

Apparently, Purge, Barrier and Magicka Det do not suffer the limit six option right now? How many other skills, both damaging and healing does this rule of six apply to? Or, not apply to?

Darlgon

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful.

Sadly, Serjo Wrobel, when we take the Tools of Lorkhan to this game's apparent vision at the present time.. something else appears.

Now, Serjo Wheeler has added fuel to the fire with his postings on Siege Weaponry, posted only partly here. For the full quote, please use the link on your brochure. (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/233510/upcoming-siege-changes-in-next-major-update/p1 )

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

In the next major update we'll be adjusting damage and other effects from siege weapons. This will go in conjunction with other changes regarding repair kits and keep upgrades, but the changes noted here are specific to players effects (damage, snares, dots, etc.).

These changes are currently being tested internally and may change before they go to PTS/Live:

• Damage across the board for all siege weapons has been increased roughly 30%, but we are considering increasing that more.
• All side effects from siege weapons (snare, healing taken reduction, siege damage increase taken) are no longer purgable.
  
  Thanks for any feedback regarding these changes and again, these may or may not go up to PTS/Live exactly as stated here, but this is what we're currently testing

This scholar appreciates the other changes, but chooses to highlight those touching on his discussion.

As Serjo Wrobel and now, Serjo Wheeler, are soliciting recommendations, this learned scholar presumes to put aside his objectivity for a few minutes and run through some.. possibilities.

May Vivec bless this humble speaker with words of a warrior poet that appeal to both the learned and the unlearned.

First off.. the caps on the caps. What? Yes, we have things like the Siege damage capped with the 6/24/30 rule, at 100/50/25. But, it is also capped by the 50% reduction in damage by being in Cyrodiil. Which makes it really 50/25/12.5. No wonder healers can keep up so easily. (or not, depending on whether they are Templars or not.. but that is another discussion.) And we really have no idea where the limit six heals comes in.

As Serjo Wheeler noted later in that discussion:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

The FIRST AOE cap that needs to go is the damage/heal/dmg shield reductions throughout Cyrodiil. It makes other calculations wonky and BY NECESSITY adds another layer of calculations to your server side computations. Everyone repeat after me..

"More calculations equals more server lag."
"More calculations equals more server lag."
"More calculations equals more server lag."

Once that sledgehammer "fix" is removed, the individual skills will come more clearly into focus.

Secondly, we look at the actual concept of AoE damage being on 6/24/30 for 100/50/25. The idea is great. The protagonist fires a fire ballista at incoming enemy, with no idea how many are coming. The ballista hits an AoE circle of , which contains 60 enemies.. Umm.. no.. not even realistic. Even zergs will not stack 60 players, (two full raids and part of another), in one area. The server would crash with that concentration.

<Aside from the podium..> What Walks-in-Mud? Some reports say that, “Yes, some zergs do indeed stack 40 or more players in an small area?” And, “Some oil pot user report hitting 30 or more players when running into take a keep?” Well.... OK.

Well, apparently other reports contradict my personal experience, and those of my former informants.

Let us press on tho. Often, subjects report they can also DODGE out of the way of a ballista.. A HUGE arrow, the size of a tree, hits and sets on fire an area of 15m across and someone can dodge it? REALLY? Also, players can DODGEROLL thru the FIRE. Don't try that at home kids, unless you are part Daedra or Fire Elemental. Also, the opposing players may have DAMAGE SHIELDS, which soak up ALL of the damage. Out of those 60 players, you sometimes MAY actually hit 2-5.

This situation actually makes AoE siege skills LESS useful.

Serjo Wheeler's solution of increasing siege damage is.. only a way to counter the effects of Battle Spirit on combatants and siege. Why even consider an option that makes things even more complex?

Thirdly, Why are most player skills capped at 2/3/4/6/various other numbers while the game uses the more complex calculations on other things like siege. What if ALL skills go through the same filter?

Say, a magic user fires Elemental Blockade. 12 players are standing in its path. A random six get hit with ... 100% while the other six get hit with xxx 50%. Next pulse, six have moved off, but another 20 run in the door, into it. Now, a random six get hit with 100%, 24 get hit by 50% and a lucky 2 get hit with 25%.

Apply it also to Purge. A healer fires it off. Say, 24 players are in a raid with him. Six players inside the m radius get full benefit, excluding the caster because.. well, you know.. he started it and its his magicka cost, so he should get it automatically. Another 10 are also inside the radius and get the cleanse and 50% of the heal. The other 8 players are outside the radius and get nothing.

How about Healing Springs. It is a RANGE TARGETED HEAL, not CASTER TARGETED. Inside the circle, are 18 possible targets. So, the heal hits six with a full heal, and the other 12 with 50% heal. (BTW, the caster rebate should also be based on these types of numbers, giving back based ONLY on those healed with full power, if this were in place.) Should only four be in the ring, they all receive heal of full value, with a 4 magicka rebate back to the caster.

It pretty much sounds like a tedious brain teaser. Even more some when you remember the server has to random number which ones get hit, then filter how many get full damage, and which get which percentage, then run throu if the dodge rolled in or out of the AoE.....

Again, can we say:

"More calculations equals more server lag."
"More calculations equals more server lag."
"More calculations equals more server lag."

Can some Aedra please simplify the situation?

Make damage the same in both PVE and PVP.
If a skill does too much damage, reduce IT.
If a skill heals to much, reduce its heal.
If a skill hits too many allies, reduce its radius.
If a shield counteracts too much damage, reduce the size of the shield.
If armor class reduces damage too much, reduce the AC on the armor.

Make a change in thinking on siege, not make it stronger. The goal in Cyro is to break up large groups of players, right?

Loose the 6/24/30 insanity. Don t reduce healing or purges.

A ballista is a tree, thrown like an arrow from a giant bow. It hits an area 15m across. (that number is not listed anywhere, btw.) All enemies inside the ring take IRRESISTABLE physical damage equal to the bolt.) Make that Physical Damage go thru a MITIGATION CHECK, not a dodge check. Yes, it will hurt light armors more than heavy, but,, isn't that the point of heavy armor? Its a fire ballista, so a fire starts IN A 15 M radius. No.. you don't get to dodge thru it. You get to use your FIRE/SPELL resistance check to see HOW MUCH, not IF you take damage. Also, you are IN the fire. Someone purges, YOU STAY ON FIRE until you get purged outside the ring. Say a player IS at the edge and actually not in the ring. He also should feel a concussion of some kind, a stun at least, of in an area x m around the ring.

Now, lets add to the event. The players are hiding behind the tree. Ones directly behind it would indeed be missed by the Physical Damage... in an area the size of the tree. However, as they are inside the ring of fire, they would still have to leave the area to stop getting burned and purge.

This would mitigate the concerns with Purge being OP. However, on that skill.. really? It heals 18% of MAX HEALTH if it cures a negative effect? Why isn't it like Green Dragon blood, cures 18% of MISSING HEALTH? Just that reduction alone would negate any need to reduce the number of player affected or area of effect.

Replenishing Barrier is an ULTIMATE, not a normal skill, so yes, it should be strong,, stronger than any heal. Also.. its not really a heal is it? I mean, the common people don't count Igneous Shield or Harness Magicka as a heal, do they?

Darlgon

To get back to an earlier point:

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful.

The citizens of Tamriel are confused right now. Choices in builds have not really made a lot of difference.. we need to get back to choices having effects, both in PVP and in PVE...

Single target skills like Snipe, have been and will be tortuously destructive, IF A PLAYER IS SPECCED FOR IT. High Stamina, Medium Armor, LOW Magicka, LOW HP. If a light armor magic user gets the drop on them, they should die just like the magic user would die to them. If a heavy armor HP type gets hit by either, he should be able to absorb the damage..until they run out of magicka/stamina or he runs out of HP.

AoE target skills like Elemental Blockade need to do actual damage.. to ALL players inside its field, to make them move out. If they stay in, they should need constant healing. Only when out can they be purged.

If a player is running around in Light Armor, with Stamina Enchants, and all his points into HP, he SHOULD not be able to do the same amount of damage as a person with light armor and destro staff passives, or med armor bow users with stamina passives.

If a person has all his points in Stamina and weapon damage, he should not do more damage with a Mage's Guild skill like Ice Comet, than a person with all his points into Magicka.

My apologies, my guests.. sometimes I get a little worked up when discussing game mechanics...

Sadly I have one last thing to add..

Serjo Wrobel and Serjo Wheeler.. you two act as tho you are independent of each other, that what one does, the other does not know anything about. IS THIS WHY WE ARE WHERE WE ARE? Cyrodiil is not a balancing act, with Wrobel's team on one side, and Wheeler's team on the other. What BOTH of you do affects ALL the citizens of Tamriel in one form or the other. Most especially, those who frequent Cyrodiil, yes. HOWEVER, when skill powers in PVE are affected, due to overuse in PVP, like say.. blocking, talons, cloak exploits, adjustments to Purge and Replenishing Barrier, it all affects every citizen in the Mundus. STOP PLAYING LIKE YOU DONT NEED TO WORK TOGETHER.

@Zos_RichLambert. Maybe you need moderation team to put the ideas in these two departments to work together.

As we conclude our lecture tonight, hopefully, some points have been made, some things have been learned, and some donations have been made to the Mage's Guild Retirement Fund.

Copies of this lecture will be available for purchase The link to the Google document with the base stats of the test subject and his skills located here. ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hvbja3-K7JxFBumY0pTNFvhaeA-LgeJ9E4F6wgaz20A/edit?usp=sharing ) Note, this is a read only, but can be downloaded, should you wish. Thank him for his aid.

Corrections should be directed to Walks-in-Mud. Please make any comments constructive... Those offended by such talk.. You are welcome to your opinion.

Good Evening.